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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Religious Pluralism
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The Exegesis Fairy
Shipmate
# 9588
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Posted
quote:
Is it the fact that it's a Hindu statue that bothers people?
I have attended RC churches and lit candles in front of statues. One of them was a statue of Jesus.
So is it idolitry if the statue of God is in a form that we're not familiar with?
Well, personally I have a bit of a problem with offering stuff to statues of Jesus because to me it seems to be making a graven image (albeit one that is, as leo described the Ganesh statue, is a visual representation) of God. But in its defence the statue of Jesus is a representation of the God that Christians say they worship. The Hindu statue is a statue of Ganesh who Hindus worship. Christians are told not to worship any god but YHWH. It is a representation of Ganesh, a visual aid to help Hindus worship Ganesh. Or am I wrong? Possibly.
quote:
Is the Christian faith on such shakey ground that one man engaging in a cross-cultural, inter-faith practice is going ship wreck it?
I think some of the responses here are far more defensive than this incident calls for.
I pretty sure Christianity is safe for the moment. [Smile]
I think the fact that someone who claims to be a representative of Christ is worshipping in a way that people believe is inconsistent with his Christian faith (using as it does graven images and a god that is not God) that is causing the concern.
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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Posts: 500 | From: the clear blue sky | Registered: Jun 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Thanks Sabine for your posts.
As a Quaker I see Light coming from many sources and living in an Eastern culture I am privileged to have more of a chance to see Light coming from places that others, perhaps, don't get a chance to see. Here Christianity is not the major religion, but rather one of three major religions in this state and numerically in no way the biggest. Christianity was brought here by Thomas the Apostle and was historically Syrian Orthodox with allegiance being given to the Patriarch at Antioch but has, of course, changed since the arrival of Europeans trading here directly, i.e. the end of the 16th Century. There are now Christians of all shades here and, incidentally, they all work together on projects and generally get along together without much strife.
Islam had also arrived here long before, peaceably through trade rather than violently through conquest.
Still the majority of people here are Hindus of various types.
Perhaps it is hard to imagine from outside here but generally religion is a vital part of life for the overwhelming majority of people, far more so than I ever saw in Britain.
As I am enjoined by being a Friend, I seek to see “that of God” in the people I meet here. As it is throughout life in some it is more apparent than it is in others. God-fearing people are God-fearing people and I respect them for that. Sometimes I find it difficult to detect that of God in the closed minds I find around me.
Can I repeat the Hindu prayer I quoted in an Ecclesiantics thread a week or so ago:
My God you are everywhere, and I worship you here
My God you have no form, and I worship you in these forms
My God you need no praise, and I offer you these, my prayers and salutations.
Many of us need aids to get close to God, I use that set prayer and others, sometimes I use an image; some folks use a statue or a cross or a crucifix. If someone chooses to use a symbol from another faith why on earth does it matter?
There is no God but God, whether you use the Christian Trinity or the Hindu Trinity or the Hindu pantheon or the Jain Tirthankars, there is still no God but God.
When I worship in Catholic church there are symbols there to aid me; in Madurai two weeks ago I worshipped in a Lutheran church [that was a first at 57 years old] there were symbols there to aid me; when I worship in Hindu temples there are symbols there to aid me; when I worship in Jain temples there are symbols there to aid [even if Jains are not directly Theist I can still see God through their imagery] when I worship in a Meeting for Worship of the Religious Society of Friends there are symbols there to aid me; even when I worship, as I have done on a few occasions, at Fox’s Pulpit near Sedbergh there are still symbols there to aid me though they may be in the shape of raw creation and a howling gale! I am now realising how lucky I am to be able to see through the symbol to God.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Yes, I would agree that YHWH is the recipient of all true worship. But as St Paul observed, we know who it is we worship; and it's not some shadow amongst a pantheon or a religion that does not reflect the salvation history that we know in the Person of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Homage to Ganesh may be a fine starting point for Hindus, but it's also the proper starting point for devout Hindus to become disciples of Christ God; not for Christians to play at polytheism.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Wow! There are some hair triggers on this thread. Whay are you so afraid of diversity?
God is God. I suspect God understands worship far better than any of us and can see it coming through the trees when it comes from a pure heart.
None of us has the capability of judging the purity of this man's heart.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
I think that this is quite close to a personal attack.
Possibly. The point, though, was to highlight what seemed to me the unpleasant way you were ready to pass judgement on someone you presumably have never met and to whom the Church has given authority and responsibility, as it has to you.
It's about respect, I think, valuing someone as a person, whatever their views, and I'd have thought also as a priest in this case. Your post seemed totally devoid of that.
Have you met me, Dave? Do you respect me, Dave?
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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dosey
Shipmate
# 10259
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Posted
To anyone that has an open mind: -
Beyond Religion
This guy has a good point in his podcast...
[ 30. August 2006, 07:42: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
Posts: 72 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Actually, I think this has to do with the proper behaviour of a Christian priest/minister, first and foremost. It is NOT about respecting or valuing him as a person--that is to be expected, assumed and understood. I would submit that many here do not seem to understand that the CoE is not the same as the UUF, RSoF, or some other religious society that spun off from orthodox Trinitarian Christianity. Our clergy do have certain obligations in regard to maintaining the Christian religion as we have received it.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Hmmmm.....I've always thought reflecting the Love of God to be a pretty important faith issue. I wish I could see more of that here.
Still haven't figured out why some people are so angry--in the grand scheme of really bad things people can do, things that not only hurt Christianity but also hurt human beings, this is a pretty tiny offense.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think the problem here is that some people on the ship don't understand the difference between an adherent to the Trinitarian Christian religion of the Bible and the Historical Tradition (phrasing this to be as broad and inclusive as possible) and those on the outskirts of historical Christianity.
I don't think so. I understand the difference, I'm on the outskirts, but I'm also a baptised and confirmed member of the Church of England.
If the Church only has space for what you and your fellow 'adherents' deem acceptable, how can it claim to be catholic? You have no more verifiable knowledge of the ultimate realities involved than I do.
If we're serious about including God in our personal and communal realities, it has to be baseed on his way *and* her way *and* my way. Anything else is a perversion of catholicity.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dosey:
To anyone that has an open mind: -
Beyond Religion
This guy has a good point in his podcast...
Interesting, dosey. I'm probably more at home with one religion than he is, but he does make a good point about investing too much of one's personal identity with a set of rules.
sabine
[ 30. August 2006, 07:40: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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The Exegesis Fairy
Shipmate
# 9588
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Posted
quote:
Still haven't figured out why some people are so angry--in the grand scheme of really bad things people can do, things that not only hurt Christianity but also hurt human beings, this is a pretty tiny offense.
Mostly, sabine, I think the people who are not entirely happy are more thinking along the lines of a rebuke than a 'let's hang, draw and quarter him!' Sometimes love requires us to say things we know will be hurtful in the short term (such as 'I think you are wrong for reasons X, Y and Z') but will help in the long term. And it obviously has to be done with as much love as we can muster, and then a bit more. But you must care about someone to rebuke them. If you didn't care about them (or the institution they represent) then you wouldn't bother to say anything, and let them continue in what you think is their folly. Which is less loving.
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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Posts: 500 | From: the clear blue sky | Registered: Jun 2005
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
I question why sabine, WW and others supporting Mr. Hart's actions are so quick to point fingers at those who disagree with them, calling them out as hateful and fearful. I've read every post here so far and neither Young Bingo nor LSK, for example, have posted anything hating and fearful (as I understand those terms.)
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
This isn't rocket science; the man's breaking the very first commandment. He's an high-handed idolator. Any sunday school child from my church would be able to see the error in that.
I think m.t. is right here. It's easy to understand how most traditional readings of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament make it quite clear that we are to have no 'other gods' before YHWH. This would seem to be a blatant denial of that rather important law.
Anyone who claims to be surprised by a heated reaction over this type of behavior is at best deluded. If I believe that I am to have no graven images of any God nor bow down to any idols nor sacrifice to any other false deities, how can I not take great offense to someone who claims to be my Christian brother yet misrepresents me and my faith in this way?
Personally, I don't know what I think about it. But I'm thinking about it...
Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
You know, Sabine, I don't think you get it. I'm not angry and I doubt that other orthodox Christians posting on this thread are angry (though a couple of the other side do seem to be rather angry). Look, you probably take for granted that the Eastern Orthodox are generally not going to change their praxis or doctrines in light of recent sociological trends--n'est ce pas? Well, newsflash--much of the rest of Christianity is actually very much the same. We consider priests who offer incense to images of Hindu deities to be beyond the pale. We're not modifying the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to accomodate such heretical clergy. He's welcome to (1) recant his heresy, (2) go practice as he pleases outside the Christian Church (resigning his Christian ministry as a corollary to this). This is not hate--it's a statement of what does and doesn't wash with the Church of God, as established by the oecumenical councils, the Petrine magesterium, the teachings of the Fathers and of all doctors of the Catholic Church, and 20 centuries of received tradition.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
Have you met me, Dave?
Not to my knowledge, other than on here.
quote:
Do you respect me, Dave?
As a person and as a priest, only knowing you from your posts here? Yes. Whatever I think of your views, I can't see how I could justify considering you as less than a person or less than a priest.
What's your point?
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
Yeah. try using that excuse if you ever commit adultery. Well, darling, everyone knows that you're my only wife; yes, I has sex with a prostitute, but I was really making love to you.
That's a silly analogy, though on second thoughts it echoes some of the prophets in the Hebrew Bible.
There is one God, he has one wife.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think the problem here is that some people on the ship don't understand the difference between an adherent to the Trinitarian Christian religion of the Bible and the Historical Tradition (phrasing this to be as broad and inclusive as possible) and those on the outskirts of historical Christianity.
I don't think so. I understand the difference, I'm on the outskirts, but I'm also a baptised and confirmed member of the Church of England.
If the Church only has space for what you and your fellow 'adherents' deem acceptable, how can it claim to be catholic? You have no more verifiable knowledge of the ultimate realities involved than I do.
If we're serious about including God in our personal and communal realities, it has to be baseed on his way *and* her way *and* my way. Anything else is a perversion of catholicity.
Dave, you are stretching the boundaries of the Faith as held by the CoE far beyond where they have ever been. Catholicity does not mean everyone believe anything they wish and it's still a legitimate reflection of the Christian Faith. There is a generally agreed corpus of Christian belief, comprised of Holy Scripture and the formulations of the Oecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church, if nothing else. The Church is called Catholic because it holds the Whole, Complete Faith for All times, for All people, in All places.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Yes, I would agree that YHWH is the recipient of all true worship. But as St Paul observed, we know who it is we worship; and it's not some shadow amongst a pantheon or a religion that does not reflect the salvation history that we know in the Person of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Homage to Ganesh may be a fine starting point for Hindus, but it's also the proper starting point for devout Hindus to become disciples of Christ God; not for Christians to play at polytheism.
Hindus are not polytheists. They worship one God, Brahman.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Hosting
Dave Marshall and m.t-tomb: If you wish to continue your personal dispute, please observe the Ship's fourth commandment by taking it to Hell.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
I question why sabine, WW and others supporting Mr. Hart's actions are so quick to point fingers at those who disagree with them, calling them out as hateful and fearful. I've read every post here so far and neither Young Bingo nor LSK, for example, have posted anything hating and fearful (as I understand those terms.)
You're right, Ken, I overgeneralized by using the word "people" rather than talking about specific individuals.
However, that said, I do sense a defensiveness running through this thread (some of it mine) that seems to go beyond the "crime" in question, especially when you consider the world at large and how much suffering has been put into that world by actions other than burning insense in front of a statue.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I do sense a defensiveness running through this thread (some of it mine) that seems to go beyond the "crime" in question, especially when you consider the world at large and how much suffering has been put into that world by actions other than burning insense in front of a statue.
sabine
Well, no one is comparing Hart to war criminals, Sabine! Should we not voice criticisms of Hart's actions until they reach genocidal levels of evil?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Exegesis Fairy
Shipmate
# 9588
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Posted
quote:
I do sense a defensiveness running through this thread (some of it mine) that seems to go beyond the "crime" in question, especially when you consider the world at large and how much suffering has been put into that world by actions other than burning insense in front of a statue.
But burning incense in front of a statue is what this thread is about. It's the basis of the OP, and so it's what we're discussing.
quote:
Hindus are not polytheists. They worship one God, Brahman.
But they don't worship him directly, hence the Ganesh worship, right? Because Brahman is invisible and cannot be represented and so all the other gods are representations of some part of Brahman's nature?
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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Posts: 500 | From: the clear blue sky | Registered: Jun 2005
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Missed the edit window...
In fact, the finger pointing toward someone who is different and doesn't agree actually started with the second post, not with WW and myself.
Be that as it may, I'm not up to being in a black/white argument over inter-faith matters.
Peace to you all.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Missed the edit window...
In fact, the finger pointing toward someone who is different and doesn't agree actually started with the second post, not with WW and myself.
Be that as it may, I'm not up to being in a black/white argument over inter-faith matters.
Peace to you all.
sabine
Quite right, pointing the finger at inappropriate public behaviour by a Christian minister started with me, author of the 2nd post in the thread. Am I not to say so if I disagree profoundly with what the Revd Mr Hart is doing?
[Fixed per poster's next post]
[ 28. August 2006, 16:52: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dosey:
To anyone that has an open mind: -
Beyond Religion
This guy has a good point in his podcast...
Thanks dosey, that was a fascinating listen. I think he makes some fascinating points.
KenWritez, I can't recall naming anyone as being hateful or fearful, if I have done please point out where and I shall apologise. I apologise anyway, just in case. I seek here to find that of God in Shipmates as well, you know. I believe it is most surely there.
[ 30. August 2006, 07:37: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
How did that last post get so mucked up? Obviously I'm taking credit for the "finger pointing" of the second post, and Sabine was not supposed to be signing off on that!
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
I think we're seeing some oxes being gored.
M.T., Young Bingo and LSK (three who come to mind) see Hart's actions as apostate and indefensible given his status as a Christian priest because offering veneration to an image of the Hindu god Ganesh is prohibited by the first, second (and arguably) third commandments.
Those who see no sin or problem in Hart's actions (like you, sabine, or WW--again, the first two who come to mind) seem quick on the draw against anyone claiming Hart is failing to measure up to orthodox Christian standards.
Hart's actions can't be simply labeled as "worshipping Jehovah under another name" if the first three commandments in Exodus 20 are to be believed as they stand. If Jehovah truly was "every other god" then there would be no reason for the these commandments, no reason for God's anger at the Hebrews for worshipping the golden calf, no reason for the multitude of times God judged Israel and Judah for either worshipping other gods or tolerating such worship within their borders.
To put this in a sports metaphor, you can't play for opposing teams at the same time.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Catholicity does not mean everyone believe anything they wish and it's still a legitimate reflection of the Christian Faith.
I totally agree.
quote:
There is a generally agreed corpus of Christian belief, comprised of Holy Scripture and the formulations of the Oecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church, if nothing else.
If the Church of England is anything it is an expression of a corpus of belief that is *not* generally agreed.
The Church functions by requiring assent to certain forms of words. The meaning, the understanding behind them, is as I understand it entirely a matter of individual conscience. If anyone can defend in a reasoned way (and most people are never called to) their assent to whatever liturgy they participate in, that is sufficient.
quote:
The Church is called Catholic because it holds the Whole, Complete Faith for All times, for All people, in All places.
But not because that faith can ever be described or circumscribed with certainty.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
[qb] Missed the edit window...
In fact, the finger pointing toward someone who is different and doesn't agree actually started with the second post, not with WW and myself.
Be that as it may, I'm not up to being in a black/white argument over inter-faith matters.
Peace to you all.
Quite right, pointing the finger at inappropriate public behaviour by a Christian minister started with me, author of the 2nd post in the thread. Am I not to say so if I disagree profoundly with what the Revd Mr Hart is doing?
I wasn't making any comment about your right to speak--you have the right to say what you want in accordance with ship policy. I was simply correcting the impression that WW and I were the only ones pointing fingers.
My deepest wish was not to call people out (although I ended up doing some of that, sideways), but to take the intensity of the thread down a notch by highlighting the fact that we seemed to have gotten into a polarized situation when another way of discussing might have been more helpful.
I accept that everyone here has the right to hold the opinion of his/her choice, and would echo WW's apology.
My strategy of pointing to the dynamic of the thread made it seem that I don't understand that we will have different POVs on this.
My strategy failed through haste in posting and poor choices of words. I am sorry about that.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
For some of us, Dave, words are not just sly subterfuge, and forms of worship enshrine truths that are consensually validated by Tradition and Magisterium.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
Those who see no sin or problem in Hart's actions (like you, sabine, or WW--again, the first two who come to mind) seem quick on the draw against anyone claiming Hart is failing to measure up to orthodox Christian standards.
Ken, everyone seems to have been quick on the draw on this thread. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Peace,
Sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
. . . Those who see no sin or problem in Hart's actions (like you, sabine, or WW--again, the first two who come to mind) seem quick on the draw against anyone claiming Hart is failing to measure up to orthodox Christian standards. . .
I hope I am not quick on the draw about anything or against anyone. On reading yesterday's paper over lunch today I thought it an interesting little article and decided it might be worth discussing here. I posted it and was immediately harangued about it.
Furhtermore I see no need to compare David Hart to any sort of standard, orthodox Christian or not.
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
. . . To put this in a sports metaphor, you can't play for opposing teams at the same time.
Hmm, perhaps the problem is that some people perceive it all as opposing teams rather than rendering unto God the things that are God's. I happen to see The People of God a little more inclusively than many others; that is a personal view which I believe I am entitled to hold here.
--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
For some of us, Dave, words are not just sly subterfuge, and forms of worship enshrine truths that are consensually validated by Tradition and Magisterium.
I hope you're not suggesting there is any sly subterfuge in my words. If you are, I'd appreciate you spelling out where you think this is, because you will have misread my post.
On the question of "truths that are consensually validated by Tradition and Magisterium", I suggest that ultimate truth is beyond the remit of Tradition and Magisterium. Truths about God we can only struggle towards, sometimes recognise, never contain. Whatever "truth" you mean can only be provisional, and is therefore no defence agaist critical re-examination and change.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
. . . Those who see no sin or problem in Hart's actions (like you, sabine, or WW--again, the first two who come to mind) seem quick on the draw against anyone claiming Hart is failing to measure up to orthodox Christian standards. . .
I hope I am not quick on the draw about anything or against anyone. On reading yesterday's paper over lunch today I thought it an interesting little article and decided it might be worth discussing here. I posted it and was immediately harangued about it.
WW, I don't think there was any intention to harangue you about the subject of the article.
Furhtermore I see no need to compare David Hart to any sort of standard, orthodox Christian or not.
However, there has indeed been strong criticism levelled at D. Hart, and I do think that as a priest of the Church of England, his actions ought rightly to be held up in comparison to the official formularies of the CoE and of the Church Catholic of which she claims to be a part. Once again, an Anglican presbyter ain't the same thing as a UU minister.
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
. . . To put this in a sports metaphor, you can't play for opposing teams at the same time.
Hmm, perhaps the problem is that some people perceive it all as opposing teams rather than rendering unto God the things that are God's. I happen to see The People of God a little more inclusively than many others; that is a personal view which I believe I am entitled to hold here.
For my part, I think this implies a confusion between the people of God and the Church of God. Many people seek God outside of historical, Trinitarian Christianity and we can have no doubt that God loves these persons and extends His grace to them; but the Church, founded by Jesus Christ and the Apostles, is not the same thing as all the members of humankind who seek and try to worship God in some way and form. I think the problem here has to do with very different understandings of what the Church is. As usual, one understanding is grounded in the historical Church of the ages, and another understanding appears to emanate from the outer fringes of English nonconformism as it has developed over the past three centuries or so.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
As David Hart is an Anglican little matey, would be interested what form the Creed, the Gloria, the Conffession takes and who to.
Where is his matey in all this? If any one kind find, more then happy to contact him.
We can not be all things to whatever whim takes, but must be true to one God.
Still believe Hart is hedging his bets to see what happens when the proverble hits the fan.
It`s a bit like those churches that practice Hallowen because the believe it is OK for children to dress up as demons and frighten old people in their homes.
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Well, it's late and I'm tired so I'm heading to bed. It's been edifying and has certainly opened my eyes in many, many ways.
May immeasurable God be with you all.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Coiled Spring, what have you been smoking or drinking? Perhaps just a little more attention to editing would be in order.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Leo
quote:
NOT an 'idol' Hindu images are known as 'murtis' and are seen as visual aids.
Incorrect. When the priest performs the prana pratishtha ceremony, the murti is imbued with the spirit of the deity. So, in many ways this parallels to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The objection of the Orthodox Catholic Christian to this is NOT the doctrine of the murti itself but what the murti represents. We are not all gathered around guessing what God is like (as in that cliched elephant) ... we are Christians who by no means can worship that which is not the Trinity.
quote:
Hindus are not polytheists. They worship one God, Brahman.
Incorrect ... because it is simplistic. True, there are some Hindus who deny divine status to the deities but rather insist of these being attributes of Brahman. Most Hindus however, regard these theophanic manifestations as divine in their own right. Moreover, even if that were not true burning incense before a manifestation of a non-personalist monist entity is certainly excluded by the Christian revelation of God as Trinity.
Any Christian who thinks that Hart's actions are OK know nothing of Christian history let alone the necessity of staying within the revelation entrusted to us. Someone here no doubt will soon claim that the golden calf was a legitimate manifestation of YHWH.
I really do begin to think now that some who claim to bear the name of Christ here really do belong to a completely different religion than I do.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
Is this the David Hart, an Anglican Priest of the 'Sea of Faith'/Don Cupitt variety, who was one of those freelance 'private baby baptisms in your back garden for a under £200' types.
All sounds a bit iffy
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, Hart's action shocks and grieves me, but I suspect that we have different views of reality behind this argument. To me (and apparently to the OT writers) there is a spiritual reality behind such idols, and it is not the Trinity. Even Naaman, new convert that he was, had serious qualms about having to bow in the house of the king's god. I think most Christian converts from idol-using religions avoid them like the plague henceworth--so they seem to think there's something dodgy going on.
But it seems to me that some shipmates do not share this perception of reality, and instead take the bowing, sacrificing, etc. as basically a nice, symbolic gesture--a kind of inclusive, tolerant thing to do, that isn't very much different from offering someone a handshake or a meal. A few think instead that the same God is behind all such images, etc.
If that's your perspective on reality, then it makes sense to say "It doesn't matter" or "What a friendly thing to do!" But for others of us, well.... We're having the same kind of reaction you might if you found a coworker replacing his wife's picture with that of, um, another coworker. We just can't believe it doesn't mean something is seriously wrong.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Hosting
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Coiled Spring, what have you been smoking or drinking?
Personal attacks are not allowed in Purgatory. Take it to Hell or don't post it at all.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
Thank you Ruth, am slowly learning the rules of engagement.
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think the problem here has to do with very different understandings of what the Church is. As usual, one understanding is grounded in the historical Church of the ages, and another understanding appears to emanate from the outer fringes of English nonconformism as it has developed over the past three centuries or so.
I agree we have different understandings of what the Church is. The question I come back to when I wonder if I really am still part of it is, how can I not be?
I've been baptised and confirmed in the Church of England. I believed the essentials of traditional Christianity for the majority of my adult life. There has been no disconnect between then and now in terms of my faith in God as a personal reality. And I haven't chosen to reject God or the traditional teaching of the Church. So where did I become no longer part of it?
If the church catholic is a meaningful concept, I'm as much a part of it now as I ever was. If the Church of England is an expression of that catholicity, its rituals and structures should provide as much for people in my position, and David Hart's, as for those who find their security in traditional Christianity.
This is not something that has "emanated from the outer fringes of English nonconformism". It's a simple case of a need for change brought about by globalisation and no doubt a load of other sociological and cultural factors. I'm not hopeful that useful change will happen, but the alternative - a narrow, reactionary remnant of a Church that becomes the last refuge of traditional religionists - is not something I'm ready to concede.
[ 28. August 2006, 22:05: Message edited by: Dave Marshall ]
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
I need to apologize, so please bear with me. I've gone back and re-read the posts on this thread and I see mistakes I've made:
WW and sabine, I apologize if I came across as jumping up and down on you, that wasn't my intention. I was trying to call attention to what I saw as inconsistencies in your posts here, that's all. I didn't mean to cast any slurs against either of you.
I also need to apologize for naming both of you, as those who called some of the posters here hateful and fearful. You did not do this. Somehow I had let both of you represent some other posters here, and I erred in doing this. My bad.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
As to number three, well you will know already that I take your point; however, I think it's wrong to tar all Anglicans with the same brush, and some of us who remain in the CoE/Anglican Communion are obviously not at all cavalier about maintaining orthodoxy and discountenancing gross heresy.
I was contemplating using a different label for revelation mark three. But first, the "gin & tonic" would not have worked. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Second, we are talking about "Rev. Hart, who renewed his orders for priesthood under the Bishop of Ely, Cambridgeshire, last month." There are RC priests who behave at least as badly, of course, but by the time they become newsworthy they are on their way out, not getting "renewed". Maintaining orthodoxy and discountenancing gross heresy requires a bit more than celebrating a perfect mass, saying a rosary and having warm and fuzzy thoughts about the pope... Ask St Nicholas about Arius.
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
None of us has the capability of judging the purity of this man's heart.
Bollocks. If I give an oath to my wife to be faithful to her, and then sleep around with other women, then my heart is not pure and you can easily judge that. As I understand it, the priest has signed something like "I solemnly declare that I do believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the Word of God, and to contain all things necessary to salvation; and I do solemnly engage to conform to the doctrine, discipline, and worship of the <insert specific Anglican church>." and has answered his bishop positively to questions like "Will you then give your faithful diligence always so to minister the doctrine and sacraments, and discipline of Christ, as the Lord hath commanded, and as this Church hath received the same according to the Commandments of God, so that you may teach the people committed to your care and charge with all diligence to keep and observe the same?" I consider his behaviour to be in clear violation of these oaths. Hence his heart is not pure, as judged from his actions. Unless adoring Ganesh is part of the Anglican doctrine, discipline and worship these days. Which would not totally surprise me, to be honest...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
I need to apologize, so please bear with me. I've gone back and re-read the posts on this thread and I see mistakes I've made:
WW and sabine, I apologize if I came across as jumping up and down on you, that wasn't my intention. I was trying to call attention to what I saw as inconsistencies in your posts here, that's all. I didn't mean to cast any slurs against either of you.
I also need to apologize for naming both of you, as those who called some of the posters here hateful and fearful. You did not do this. Somehow I had let both of you represent some other posters here, and I erred in doing this. My bad.
Hey, no problem. Actually, I asked the thread as a whole why there was a sense of fearfulness, so you weren't so far off the mark. As for inconsistency--well, I can do it with the best of them!
If anything, this thread has led to a bit of fellow feeling among some of us. Ironic, isn't it.
I think lamb chopped probably best described the basic disconnect--some of us feel that statues are incidental and others feel that they are not; some of us feel that God as represented in culturally specific form is important, some of us feel it is not. some of us have strong opinions about what a priest should be doing wrt: statues and insense, and some of us do not.
While I would like to find a way to capture the best of both ways of seeing (especially since I usually hang out in the gray areas between poles) I recognize that it's probably not going to happen in this particular case.
Anyway, thanks for the apology.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
As I understand it, the priest has signed something like "I solemnly declare that I do believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the Word of God, and to contain all things necessary to salvation; and I do solemnly engage to conform to the doctrine, discipline, and worship of the <insert specific Anglican church>." and has answered his bishop positively to questions like "Will you then give your faithful diligence always so to minister the doctrine and sacraments, and discipline of Christ, as the Lord hath commanded, and as this Church hath received the same according to the Commandments of God, so that you may teach the people committed to your care and charge with all diligence to keep and observe the same?"
As far as I can tell (from the canons, section C15) the Church of England doesn't impose this kind of conformity.
Priests have to swear allegiance to the sovereign, "canonical obedience" to their bishop "in all things honest and lawful", and to believe in the faith revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds. They're asked to affirm their loyalty to the Church's inheritance of faith as their inspiration and guidance under God.
If the Church has seen fit to ordain you priest, it looks to me as if conscience is your legitimate authority on matters of belief.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
I need to apologize, so please bear with me. I've gone back and re-read the posts on this thread and I see mistakes I've made:
WW and sabine, I apologize if I came across as jumping up and down on you, that wasn't my intention. I was trying to call attention to what I saw as inconsistencies in your posts here, that's all. I didn't mean to cast any slurs against either of you.
I also need to apologize for naming both of you, as those who called some of the posters here hateful and fearful. You did not do this. Somehow I had let both of you represent some other posters here, and I erred in doing this. My bad.
Thanks Ken, as Sabine says, no problem.
I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here, quite unintentionally To put it in perspective for you all I live somewhere where Hindus and Muslims are welcomed at Mass or Qurbana, though they do not receive communion; where Christians and Hindus worship in Mosques; and where Muslims and Christians [and folks of all races] participate in the largest pilgrimage in the world, which happens to be to a Hindu shrine. Whether any of the Chrisitans participating in these activities are in Orders is not on record.
It is also, incidentally, a place where the communalist politics of the right [BJP, Shiv Sena, etc.] have so far had little impact and neighbour rubs happily along with neighbour, where communal tension between religious groupings is virtually unknown. Surely that at least is a positive.
[ 29. August 2006, 02:23: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
My discomfort with religious pluralism emerges from a feeling that there is actually something a little bit disrespectful about minimizing or dismissing real differences in our conception of the divine. For myself, I can say that Ganesha is another way of understanding the one God I believe in--but if I were a Hindu, I think it would feel a bit condescending to have a Christian join in worshiping Ganesha while telling me he was really just worshiping his own God deep down (i.e., that my understanding was wrong, but he was willing to ignore my error in the interests of a generous ecumenicism). And since I really do believe there is only one spiritual power in the universe (so the theory that "other gods" are really demonic powers doesn't fly), I couldn't really be doing anything else.
On the other hand, pace Demas, I see nothing wrong with assimilating other beliefs into our own metanarrative as long as we are mindful that that is what we're doing and don't claim anything else. For example, I can read the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching and translate it into Judeo-Christian language as "The Law that can be written is not the eternal Law," and believe that it expresses something that Jesus would not only recognize but wholeheartedly endorse--but that doesn't mean that Lao Tzu or a Taoist would necessarily see that paraphrase as true or even meaningful. Which doesn't matter for my purposes--it's my own leading to an understanding of those words.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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