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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Against Cremation
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Dear Eutychus
No, but you better have a damn good justification if you are overturning 4000 years, at least from where I am standing.
Concerning crematoria back way back .... cremation was de rigeur in the Empire at the time of Christ .... amongst pagans (except Egyptians) but not Jews and Christians.
So it's not new after all and in coming to consider cremation a viable option for disposal the Jews and Christians came to the party late? I can understand why they mightn't want to do what the pagans did, as I said in my last post. But I would be reluctant to call that a 'damn good justification' for establishing a 4000 year old precedent
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
Yes, well, we ordain women now, too.
Stuff happens.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Concerning crematoria back way back .... cremation was de rigeur in the Empire at the time of Christ .... amongst pagans (except Egyptians) but not Jews and Christians.
At the time of Christ there were no Christians.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
No it isn't legal. They must be interred, stored in urns or committed to the sea.
So what about the Guardian article I referred to earlier?
It claims there it is very little regulation.
[ 21. August 2006, 19:31: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
I take it you're in favour of slavery, then? I think a better case could be made for slavery in Scripture, and probably the Fathers, than for the theological necessity of burial.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Rossweisse: quote:
I understand revulsion to what I gather is the common British practice of having services at crematoria while the body slides into the flames (it all sounds very off-putting), but in the United States, cremation isn't public and the ashes -- usually in an urn -- are brought to the church(or to an undertaker's) for an appropriate memorial service.
I have never taken, or seen, a cremation in the UK where flames were visible at all. However I had assumed this was common practice in the USA, due solely to the James Bond film (Diamonds Are Forever?) where the villains attempt to kill our hero by consigning him directly to the fire. Is this film the source of some confusion I wonder?
Equally, all the burials I have attended in the UK have included the coffin being lowered into the ground and then a handful of soil being thrown onto it at, "earth to earth, ashes to ashes" (sometimes just by the priest, at others by all the family, at others by all the mourners).
I have read that (again in the UK) attitudes to creamtion changed dramatically during WWI. WIth so many soldiers being blown apart, and there being no possibilty of burying all their fragments in one coffin, compassionate clergy had to do a major rethink about the presumtion that an intact corpse was needed for the Resurrection of the Dead. That sounds plausible to me; does anyone know if it is accurate?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I understand revulsion to what I gather is the common British practice of having services at crematoria while the body slides into the flames (it all sounds very off-putting)
Well, at my grandmother's funeral the coffin slid vertically down out of sight, and we never saw a hint of flame. Not off-putting at all, in fact it was quite touching.
I heard (forget where, one of those undercover documentaries probably) that some crematoriums "do" two or three coffins at a time, to save fuel. So the families could have bits of their relative mixed in with a couple of other folk. Now that's off-putting!
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
Why the hell should they have? Sometimes.Tradition.Is.Wrong. Deal.With.It.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Never heard or seen "flames" anywhere near the chapel. Industrial cremators can only fit one coffin in at a time.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Often Tradition is right. You.deal.with.it.
Who decides?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Never heard or seen "flames" anywhere near the chapel. Industrial cremators can only fit one coffin in at a time.
Better watch your weight too.
quote:
Cremators are a standard size. Large cities will have access to an oversize cremator that can handle deceased in the 200+ kg range. However, the morbidly obese cannot be cremated and must be buried.
Source.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
I'm beginning to wonder if the real reason Fr Gregory is so in favour of burial is so that previous generations of Orthodox believers can continue to turn in their graves whenever anyone suggests an innovation.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I have never been to a funeral where they actually lowered the casket.
The casket, in my experience, is placed over the grave by the poll-bearers and left there until after everyone has left. It is then that the workers lower the casket and fill the grave.
Is this not other people's experience?
On the contrary, sharkshooter- it's the custom in England as far as I know to have the actual burial at the heart of the service. I suppose the practice of seeing the coffin whisked away on mechanical rollers to be burned is a crematorial parallel to seeing it go beneath the earth.
Speaking personally, I found the experience of lowering my grandfather's body into the ground shattering, but ultimately cathartic. I was amazed at the sheer amount of effort it took (with 3 other cousins) to carry a coffin and a body- it really brought home the physicality of death, the sheer dead weight of a corpse.
But lowering the coffin into the ground meant that there was an absolute finality to the end of the service, with nothing hanging over it, and no attempts to "draw the curtains". There was a body. We buried it. I'm very glad we had that simplicity, rather than turning away while someone did the real work and felt the weight of the body on their shoulders.
L.
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Never heard or seen "flames" anywhere near the chapel. Industrial cremators can only fit one coffin in at a time.
Better watch your weight too.
quote:
Cremators are a standard size. Large cities will have access to an oversize cremator that can handle deceased in the 200+ kg range. However, the morbidly obese cannot be cremated and must be buried.
Source.
I know, the second funeral I ever did the deceased would not fit down the catafalque or in the cremator. Steep learning curve.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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R.I.T.A
Apprentice
# 11706
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Posted
Whilst I want to be buried, with all the trimmings, I don't have a huge problem with cremation. After all, doesn't cremation just speed up the whole process of decay? I do have a problem though with these large US caskets which are designed to stop the decay of the body. Phrases such as Earth to Earth Ashes to Ashes and Remember man that though are dust, and to dust you shall return, spring to mind.
RITA
Posts: 32 | Registered: Aug 2006
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Oh yeah, thats another thing in favor of crematon. Instead of being pressured into buying the monster casket, you can simply hold out for the crematable one... which is estenially some kind of pressboard I think. NOt as attractive as the big mahogany or whatever they're made of things, but when it's covered with flowers or draped with a flag, who knows anyway? And much less expensive.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
I'm beginning to wonder if the real reason Fr Gregory is so in favour of burial is so that previous generations of Orthodox believers can continue to turn in their graves whenever anyone suggests an innovation.
Good one!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Ferijen
Shipmate
# 4719
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Often Tradition is right. You.deal.with.it.
Father Gregory... Putting the "O" into Orthodox.
Some of us are post-Reformation and happen to think that sometimes, tradition ain't the be-all and end-all.
Cremators tend to heat the body up very quickly - from what I understand by the time you'd get the 'flames through the coffin' thing witnessed in Mr Bond, you'd be way past it. There really wouldn't be time to deal with the 'is it hot in here' feeling.
Posts: 3259 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
I'm beginning to wonder if the real reason Fr Gregory is so in favour of burial is so that previous generations of Orthodox believers can continue to turn in their graves whenever anyone suggests an innovation.
from me too.
But make sure you.deal.with.it, Melon.
No, really, have you dealt with it?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
My third funeral was for a bloke who lived to be 103. He put his great age down to a glass of rum and a teaspoon of gunpowder everyday of his retired life. He left behind three children seven grandchildren and an eighteen foot hole in the crem wall.
P
[ 21. August 2006, 20:28: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
Um, that electricity/plumbing argument doesn't hold water. If cremation was an invention of the 19th century, then that argument might work but this thread has already established that cremation was the norm in the Roman empire.
If it was the norm then (and presumably better, cheaper, faster, less of a pain as well), then why did Christians and Jews not participate at that time?
If that can be answered clearly, then we'll have the original basis for the argument against cremation and then we can debate if that's still a valid argument or not.
Are Fr.G's OP points the basis for the original rejection of cremation or just the current reasons?
As for #2, embalming is a fairly invasive (violent?) process too, but we still do that if cremation's not chosen.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ferijen
Shipmate
# 4719
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
I thought I might tackle this directly... apart from pointing out that if 4000 years of unbroken tradition should be our guiding light, we're probably in the wrong society...
Cremation had been mentioned a couple of times before the 1874 article credited with starting the modern cremation movement: in 1658 "Hydriotaphia or Urne Burial" was written, advocating burning corpses, and Byron wrote (quite appalled) having witnessed his friend Shelley's body being burnt on an Italian beach.
However, the church responded to a new set of conditions in the 19thc - most obvious of these were the social problems - picture, if you will, a village church responding to the needs of a newly urbanised city which has developed around it - closely followed by health problems - incidences of plague and the surviving of anthrax spores had been attributed to graves.
But by the nineteenth century there were not only these problems in a time of huge population growth, but a solution proposed by science, which found a way in which <i>for the first time</i> a body could be disposed of quickly, with minimal smell or distressing sights (the only other 19th century experience of cremation tended to be that of Indian funeral pyres), and yes, with dignity.
Had there not been a need to find a new way to deal with bodies - and even the anti-cremationists realised that this was a problem - the cremationists would probably have been dismissed as crackpots. But they weren't and (as far as I'm concerned) the Anglican and free churches realised that this was a decent alternative to burial on land and at sea, which was choking the living. As long as you don't hold on to a physical resurrection taking the bones from the position they were buried in (and those living in urban England were all to aware how false the impression of an "eternal grave" was), cremation is a logical step to take.
[ 21. August 2006, 20:38: Message edited by: Ferijen ]
Posts: 3259 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
quote:
Apart from the Orthodox ... does anyone here think that there is anything to regret in the now widespread Christian acceptance of cremation?
I think the very nature of crematoria is an argument against cremation. Crematoria are soulless, godless places. Impersonal, inhuman. *shudder*
No place is Godless - especially when Christians come together to hallow it with worship and prayer.
Impersonal? It depends on the pastoral care and sensitivity of the minister.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
If it was the norm then (and presumably better, cheaper, faster, less of a pain as well), then why did Christians and Jews not participate at that time?
To distinguish themselves in yet another way from the pagans?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I understand revulsion to what I gather is the common British practice of having services at crematoria while the body slides into the flames (it all sounds very off-putting)
Well, at my grandmother's funeral the coffin slid vertically down out of sight, and we never saw a hint of flame. Not off-putting at all, in fact it was quite touching.
I heard (forget where, one of those undercover documentaries probably) that some crematoriums "do" two or three coffins at a time, to save fuel. So the families could have bits of their relative mixed in with a couple of other folk. Now that's off-putting!
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
Why the hell should they have? Sometimes.Tradition.Is.Wrong. Deal.With.It.
Never, ever does the coffin slide into the flames.
It is usually hidden from sight by curtains and often only goes into the rooms at the back for transference into the cremator once the mourners have left.
And as for two coffins in one cremator - NEVER.
The crmatorium worker calls each coffin a 'charge' and it is cared for with the highest care and dignity from the moment it leaves the service to the moment the funeral director or family collects the urn a few days later.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
I hadn't been under the impression that the manner of bodily disposal was a creedal issue such that changing it requires another 4000 years of meetings.
sharkshooter:
I've seen many caskets lowered into the ground. Sometimes only the family remains to see it, though.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
One of the advantages of cremation is that it's cheaper than burial. Maybe in London that's more of a problem than in the suburbs or countryside?
We chose cremation for Mr d, which was surprising to his Asian-Christian part of the family - they come from Hinduism a while back and maybe that prejudices them against "burning"? I will be cremated eventually and the ashes of us both will be together, if the family are organised. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
There is more room in the burial places in the cemetries that belong to us for boxes of ashes than for any more coffins and bodies.
What about the tradition of putting bodies up high so that vultures and eagles can feed on them? Disposal of Pharsi bodies.. An important bit of that is to prevent pollution.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
What about the tradition of putting bodies up high so that vultures and eagles can feed on them? Disposal of Pharsi bodies.. An important bit of that is to prevent pollution.
I always rather liked the thought of that. I think there's some Native American tribes that do something similar, called "sky burial". The body is put attop a tall tree and lashed in place.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
One method of cremation Christians haven't tried (so ar as I know) is the open fire, Hindu style. Pity. I think this rite has wonderful symbolism.
But perhaps it would remind us of the other sort of fires we used to use - with faggots - to deal with awkward people who didn't like the current tradition.
A propos of which, "..you better have a damn good justification if you are thinking of overturning 4000 years, at least from where I am standing..." Um, where ARe you standing, Father - next to Rameses III?
Most of my family like the Woodland Burial option - thanks to the person who gave us the link. On the motorway not far from here, a woodland site advertises funerals and weddings side by side - if you see what I mean. But suppose they did that literally? What a wonderful way to get a right perspective on life...
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
Probably for the same reason that they got electricity and flush toilets -- they beat the heck out of trying to read by candlelight and crapping in outhouses. Similarly, cremation is neater, cleaner and less of a pain in the ass.
Exactly! I don't see that one must provide a reason for every change of tradition. For instance, in my husband's family dinner tended to be a bland meal. In our household we work to make it interesting. Our reason for changing? Why not? Similarly with my feelings on cremation--it's better for space reasons and I can't see why not!
Really, why is tradition worth preserving? Just because it's tradition? That might what you would say, Fr. Gregory, but I strongly disagree. The way I see it, tradition is worth preserving as long as there are still good reasons for keeping it. If I wish to change the way someone else does things it takes a good reason, but if I want to change the way I do things (and no one else) then I need no excuse at all. After all, I don't think anyone here has said they'd like to forbid burial. Certainly burying one's dead is a very personal process. If those who are dying ar okay with how their relatives plan to handle their remains and those who are living are okay with it (and in my book, the opinions of the living should far outweigh those of the dead) then I can't see why we as a society (or a religious group) should want to have the same exact tradition.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chemincreux:
One method of cremation Christians haven't tried (so ar as I know) is the open fire, Hindu style. Pity. I think this rite has wonderful symbolism.
I like Viking variant wherein the departed is placed in his ship and set ablaze.
I have a sailboat in my driveway, blocking the garage. Life has been busy and the boat hasn't seen water in a number of years, but I have stubbornly refused to put it up for sale. My wife says that, when I die, she's going to set my body atop the boat, dowse us with gasoline, and toss in a match.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Also, modern burial, unless of the plain wooden box or woodland style, is extremely bad stewardship of money -- when my grandmother died, the funeral home tried to sell us a 15,000 coffin with a 5,000 grave liner. My father asked if the coffin was wired for internet and phone service. She would never have wanted us to spend 20,000 on such a set-up. Dad said what was especially hilarious was the way they advertised the premium options -- he would say, "a titanium grave liner" and I'd say, "and the purpose of this is to prevent ....?" I mean, really. Are we trying to pretend they look good when they're six feet under?? Who the heck cares whether the coffin lining is ruched silk?
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by chemincreux:
One method of cremation Christians haven't tried (so ar as I know) is the open fire, Hindu style. Pity. I think this rite has wonderful symbolism.
I like Viking variant wherein the departed is placed in his ship and set ablaze.
I have a sailboat in my driveway, blocking the garage. Life has been busy and the boat hasn't seen water in a number of years, but I have stubbornly refused to put it up for sale. My wife says that, when I die, she's going to set my body atop the boat, dowse us with gasoline, and toss in a match.
I like it!
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
Fr. Gregory forgets a lot of that 'tradition' had to do with Religious Authority..try bucking that & you'd get an early cremation..;-
The Romans actually had burial but then the Emperors turned to cremation as it reminded the plebs of Hercules' death by fire & apotheosis into Olympus. You know intimations of divinity. So it became de rigueur....The older Etruscans had beautiful sarcophogi. So this is just cobblers.
The Jews of Jesus's time & Orthodox Jews today prohibit cremation for just Fr. Gregory's views. I'm sure he is really Jewish.
Zoroastrians in India opted for vultures & in Iran they were buried in niches in caves. Tibetans have sky burials too (the vulture thing)
I shall have organ donation, cremation & the nice columbarium in the church with the funeral service & the 1928 prayerbook.
Can one really contemplate the Resurrection of the Dead in 'modern contemporary language?'
the Pookah
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
No, they are incomplete Christians.
I doesn't matter whether you look at classical Judaism, Christianity or Islam ... inhumation is the norm.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
No, they are incomplete Christians.
To what post is that a response?
__AR (puzzled)
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I have never been to a funeral where they actually lowered the casket.
The casket, in my experience, is placed over the grave by the poll-bearers and left there until after everyone has left. It is then that the workers lower the casket and fill the grave.
Is this not other people's experience?
The coffin of one of my great-aunts was lowered in while the assembled watched, and a fair amount of dirt was shoveled in as well. Since this was in Charleston, SC, where the water level is high anyway, and it had been raining, it was a bit like a burial at sea. My great-uncle, sitting in the front row, got splashed with mud.
There is a great deal to be said for cremation.
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
I'm beginning to wonder if the real reason Fr Gregory is so in favour of burial is so that previous generations of Orthodox believers can continue to turn in their graves whenever anyone suggests an innovation.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Thanks to all who corrected me on the into-the-flames thing. I still find the idea of the coffin sliding out of sight unappealing. And I think Christian funerals are better held in churches than in facilities.
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
I had never heard of a service at a crematorium until shipmates at the UK told me of them. We really don't do that here.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
A partly tongue in cheek response to this ...
quote:
The Jews of Jesus's time & Orthodox Jews today prohibit cremation for just Fr. Gregory's views. I'm sure he is really Jewish.
... to which I replied that they (the Jews) are incomplete Christians.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I had never heard of a service at a crematorium until shipmates at the UK told me of them. We really don't do that here.
Nor had I, and I am VERY grateful that we don't do that here!
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I have certainly attended funeral Masses (C of E or Roman Catholic), after which the body was removed quietly to the crematorium, perhaps with only the immediate family proceeding. There certainly is no reason that a service would have to be at a crematorium that I know of - and I do not care for that idea.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
Autenrieth Road: quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
No, they are incomplete Christians.
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To what post is that a response?
__AR (puzzled)
I wondered that. I thought maybe I'd missed one about canopic jars...
I have officiated at probably not far off 1000 funerals, and the majority will have been cremations, but I still can't really reconcile myself to the artificiality of it. But the issues are complex. There is cremation where the ashes are buried in a small casket in a grave, where the "burial" acquires an interesting significance of its own. Almost always there is an officiating clergyman. There are scatterings, usually done by the family on their own, though I have officiated at such, but very rarely. they seem connected with a theology of death as a return to a oneness with nature, which isn't mine, but there is an accommodation with the need for a sense of place. And there's the preponderant practice, round here, anyway, where the ashes are scattered in the crematorium grounds. That I can't get my head round - not least because this is the fate that's noted down as "scattering" in the chitty in the crematorium office that asks for "Method of Disposal" (sic.) And I don't think I'm the only one who has problems with that.
A few years ago, on a lovely summer's day, I went up to our local crematorium after an oddly funeral-free period, and the air was full of tinkling - it turned out, from wind-chimes, festooning the trees round about. the attendants told me that this had started about six weeks previously, and the practice had spred like wildfire among people whose relatives had in some cases died many years ago. They seemed to be people whose loved one's remains had been scattered at the crematorium so that they only had the vaguest sense of place, and this seemed to have been an attempt to put that right by in some sense hallowing all the crematorium grounds.
I was struck by that because I've often found myself thinking that the reasons people offer for cremation are just that - reasons. They don't seem to connect with feelings, and I think that a lot of people's feelings actually run in the opposite direction. People will say how clean cremation is, how land-efficient, how final - none of that irritating well-they-were-a-bit-quick-off-the-mark-burying-me subterranean resuscitation business - but I still seem to detect in lots of people a rationalization of something that they don't really believe in, but is probably going to happen to them.
Worse, I often seem to pick up that for others, the whole thing is tied in to a death-phobic culture that really doesn't want to acknowledge the reality of our mortality.
In my last charge but one, the manse was way down behind the churchyard which separated us from teh village. It took us two years to work out why we never got any Halloween guisers - the kids were too scared to come down past the graveyard at twilight! I found this out when two of them came down earlier, and had to be escorted back up, because it was "spooky". They were in my Sunday School and I told them for shame! All these people had died in the Christian faith, and they'd been buried in land which had been hallowed for fourteen hundred years! I used to walk through the churchyard at midnight and go into the church to play the organ. And I still remember the sense of faithful waiting that seemed to attend that place,a nd the dimension of the communion of saints.
You don't get that from a crematorium!
And by the way, what's all this death-phobic "I won't be there, so I don't care what they do with me" crap, people? I want to be buried. Properly. By somebody who knows what they're doing, like I did... ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:
And I still remember the sense of faithful waiting that seemed to attend that place,a nd the dimension of the communion of saints.
You don't get that from a crematorium!
No reason why you couldn't get it from a columbarium. The one at my church is lovely, and there's a little garden. It's where I want them to put my ashes, and I feel good about the idea that I won't be taking up a 6'x3' plot of land in an urban area. After all, in life I have an apartment, not a huge house.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Thanks for that Psyduck ... very insightful.
My mother had my dad burnt. She stuck his ashes under a tree in her garden. My mother and I do not get on very well ... never have. Occasionally I should like to visit my dad's resting place. I can't. There's nothing to see even if I could just pop in to see him which I don't. Moreover when the house gets sold ... no one will ever know. I am not happy about this at all. She ignored my requests before he died and now there is nothing to be done. Out of sight, out of mind. I remember him at the Liturgy of course. The truth is that she has never really grieved properly. She talks to the tree. Dad only belongs to her. Truly we live in a death phobic / minimalist culture.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
But if you're used to it, Rossweisse, it "feels" perfectly fine.
And have a look at
Kensal Green Crematorium, and you can see that the chapels look just like churches. There are more crematorium chapels than shown on that website - our RC neighbours had a service recently, and the chapel has rows of pews like an arena, surrounding and looking down on to the centre where the coffin sits during the service.
There are well serviced organs in each chapel. You can bring your own minister, or if you are not connected to any church, they will provide one for you.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:
And by the way, what's all this death-phobic "I won't be there, so I don't care what they do with me" crap, people? I want to be buried. Properly. By somebody who knows what they're doing, like I did...
How does not having a preference equate to being "death-phobic"?
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
RuthW: quote:
No reason why you couldn't get it from a columbarium.
I suppose there may be one or two columbaria fourteen hundred years old - and in fairness, I know of some churchyards - St Michael's in Aberystwyth, to name and shame one - where the churchyard has been converted into car parking and the gravestones moved to the walls. But columbaria can't give you that sense of temporary (just a few million millennia!) union with the earth that a churchyard can and does symbolize. It's the dry-land equivalent of the anticipation of that dread day when the sea shall give up its dead.
My position on this is not in any way absolute, but I do wonder what will happen when our bodies are finally totally processed from conception to consumption! One definition of the postmodern is that it is the end of nature. We're probably already there in many respects. How will we be doing our theology after a few centuries of this, though? These are the sorts of things that change meaning irrevocably. And I think it's happening. Obvoiously, we'll have to learn to cope. But what will it do to us?
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Viola
Administrator
# 20
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I had never heard of a service at a crematorium until shipmates at the UK told me of them. We really don't do that here.
Nor had I, and I am VERY grateful that we don't do that here!
Just in case you guys are having nasty imaginings about an unfamiliar set up, I'd like to assure you that a funeral in a crematorium chapel is just like a funeral in church (I've been to one burial and a fair few cremations. All of them happened at the cemetery / crem chapels, which look exactly like churches, because that's what they are. You get a Christian funeral service. If you're not a regular churchgoer but want the 'proper' send off, you'll get the on duty priest, otherwise your own priest / vicar / minister comes in. You're then on hand to either lower the coffin (why does it always rain at funerals?) or else the coffin stays on its platform thing and curtains are drawn around it. After everyone has gone off to the sandwiches and sympathy party at a relative's house, the coffin takes the rest of its journey. I promise you that there are no flames, you don't see smoke, you don't smell anything funny or see anything you wouldn't normally see in a church or chapel.
This is where I've been to most funerals. The thing that looks a bit like a four poster bed a the end is where the coffin has curtains drawn around it.
Hope that removes some of the ick factor from the pond difference!
K.
[Edited to note the serious cross posting that went on whilst I was slowly looking for a picture of a crem chapel!]
[ 21. August 2006, 23:32: Message edited by: Viola ]
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"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010
Posts: 4345 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001
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