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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Ancient Mariner, media tart
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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Thank you, Ruth, that is much appreciated.

No further detail is necessary as far as I am concerned.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
Second, I'd appreciate your pointing me to posts where I have been unsupportive of the management. If you are going to tar me with the broad brush, I'd appreciate the evidence first.

(And BTW, what does "unsupportive of the management" really mean? Do we have to constantly be licking boots and rubber-stamping every decision in order to show our support?)

Speaking of broad brushes, who exactly was your intended target with that last remark?

Was it:
a) Ruth
b) the Admins and Editors (including Ruth)
c) everyone not currently feuding with b)

'Cause if it was anything but c), your aim sucked big time. If it was c), that's pretty funny, but in a laughing-at-you way.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by cometchaser:
Therefore, if a small regional or trade pub (in a sense a church paper is a trade publication) ran with a two inch "isn't this cute?" buried story, it doesn't guarentee the story getting buried. but a bit fat zinger like a national paper (I'm assuming the Times is that)

Oh, it most certainly is, and internationally prestigious as well.

Americans who have not lived in the UK may not appreciate the extent to which the British press is, by and large, a national press. When I lived there in the early eighties, there was only one privately owned TV network (IIRC) and the London papers (and the Guardian) were in good selection at every newstand/mom and pop shop, sent piping hot off the presses every morning through the railroad system (slow trains? heh). I was quite impressed because at the time it would have been some trouble for me to find the San Francisco paper in Sacramento, or vice versa, and that distance is approximately equal to London-Birmingham.

Another thing that's struck me since I've been on the Ship (I wasn't paying much attention to it back then) is the extent to which C of E stuff is "newsworthy" in the British press. ("Naughty vicar" stories being a stock in trade of some papers [Biased] .)

quote:
making those choices does influence whether any other publication picks it up.
Yep. Although publication on the Ship alone would have definitely been picked up and run with, because it's being followed pretty closely by quite a number of UK journos. And a fair number of Important People in the C of E, no doubt.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651

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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
And it wouldn't have been more direct or honest to have made it clear from the outset that the story had been fed to Gledhill?

Why, when speculation was rife about whether RG had found the story on her own, was no clarification issued that she was fed it? Especially since the balance of opinion on the Styx thread seemed to be that she probably had found it herself and that it was a bit unfair to accuse the Ship of having fed it to her.

Now that wasn't too "savvy", was it?

There are a series of management choices that have to be made in a situation like this. Most assuredly the story would have been picked up, run & spun without the kind of delicate attention AM gave it. However, it's possible that the discussion in Styx might never have started speculating about conspiracies and who knew what when issues, in which case, why distress people up front by showing them how sausage is made?

I don't know if AM & other Admins discussed upfront whether the tip-off should be revealed from the beginning; they might have. It might not have even occurred to them, being a sufficiently behind-the-scenes decision, that it could become a point of speculation and discussion. I have no clue. If somebody had asked me, I'd have suggested including that information (seeing the kinds of questions and speculations this crowd raises and observing how seriously they take things), although I have been surprised by the attributions of hostility and bad-faith (on the part of mgt) put out by some. So yeah, I think it's slightly less savvy - but it's not a media savvy issue; it's a Ship's bulletin board second-guessing issue, and that's much harder to do.

So let me get this straight: if AM hadn't tipped Ms.G to the story, The Times might have never found it (just how many people do you think read it anyway, buried on page 32?) - but AM et.al. should have known that the discussion thread in Styx would speculate on the origin of the story and been upfront there. Hmmmm. Interesting reverse contortions required; that's what I'm getting from Mr Cheesy & Chesterbelloc.

quote:
It did, I'm afraid, look as if you were hoping the whole thing would drop without the question being asked, and I think that is part of the reason why people are pissed about it.
I realize we all have different boiling points and react to the same stimuli differently, but I think it's typically human to hope a certain aspect of a difficult situation isn't going to come up and do a mental "oh, darn!" when it does. I don't read anything nefarious into it. As I said on the Styx thread, when we first started discussing the Gledhill connection, I considered posting something to the effect of "anybody on the Ship could have alerted her" and then thought, wait a minute, management could have alerted her - shoot, I would have (alerted some press person, known to me, of sufficient profile, hoping to control the release) - and there wouldn't be anything wrong with doing that. Now I'm kind of sorry that I didn't extend that post and walk through the possibilities, because it might have helped to defuse-in-advance. But my posts run long, so I try to keep 'em short. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
mr cheesy said:But to me the accusation that if nothing had been leaked then the situation would have been worse is a non-argument.
That is how I feel about machine language and computers. I can see how computer programming works, on a certain level - but when it comes down to machine language, it all goes out the window for me. But the fact that I don't understand it has no bearing on the reality of how it works. Look at it this way: now there are a few hundred people, scattered throughout the UK, reading a brief, somewhat dry article on page 32 about a parish priest. The scenario you prefer results in splashy-flashy Daily Mail-type coverage with lurid headlines and then, when The Times does cover it, it will be very extensive "legitimate" journalism looking into all the details, much closer to the front of the paper, read by far more people and having much more destructive impact, for everyone - Fr.P, his parish, his diocese, the Ship, the boards. And folks would be yelling, "why wasn't this handled better?" The Ship did not facilitate wider media publication but minimized it; really, truly. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I do sympathize with those who don't like the way this "feels" - but it's such a Star Wars "use the Force, Luke!" response. Do you want your pilot landing the jet in pea-soup fog to use his "feelings" or the instruments in front of him? Thank God those pilots have learned to trust the instruments and not turn 'em off and fly "by instinct"... *shudder*

Do I think Simon's response to IngoB was strong? Yeah, it was, and I was taken aback by it. But I also have a clue that Simon's been under massive stress regarding this situation for quite awhile now and IngoB was filling in every blank with almost the worst possible explanation and attribution; Simon was provoked. IngoB has apologized for a chunk of stuff (a well-considered post, imo) and SotS stays, IngoB is not banned, I fully expect further healing will occur.

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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I do not accept that it was right for the ship to facilitate wider media publication of the situation. That might not have stopped it happening, but it would not have been the ship which did the tipping off.

No, but it would be the ship's actions that ensured there was a story in the first place.

Your argument seems to be like suggesting that, if I throw someone in the Thames, it's not my fault if he drowns, but the river's. The ship - quite rightly in my view, and your view as well apparently - put Fr Peters in a certain position, which had certain predictable consequences, and then did its best to mitigate those consequences as much as possible for him.

Your argument sounds like "If I didn't do anything, my hands are clean". But we ask forgiveness for sins of omission as well as action. A press release may not have been ideal, but I shall accept from the experts that, here, it was the least bad solution.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

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And yes, I did somehow overlook the entire page and a half of posts that came between Cheesy's post and my response... Sorry.

[ 12. October 2006, 08:35: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651

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You know, Ricardus, I did that too! [Hot and Hormonal]

quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
I'm trying on "Laura, the community would like you to know that you are not as bad as the author of the worst genocide of the last century" as a basis for mutually respectful exchange, and finding that it doesn't fit either.

Stalin? [Biased]

quote:
The Times sells nearly 665,000 copies a day.
That's a lot of birdcages...

quote:
Love the new coat, DAH-ling. it must have taken just Hundreds of puppies!
Do you have any idea how scary Cruella was to my granddaughter, when she was little? Major scary lady. Nice puppies. *whimper*

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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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I think this brief comment is quite good.

NL

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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Nightlamp - that is an excellent review of the situation. Thank you.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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With respect to the derision expressed to somebody saying that 'this feels wrong': Which is more likely to be self-justifying hogwash?

1) After long discussion we decided to go ahead and tip off The Times.

2) The advice we got was that it was important to control the release of this information according to our own timetable.

3) We are the media, dammit, and media should talk to media! We share the same interests.

4) This was a management decision. Ma-na-ge-ment! The bitchers and bellyachers on the ship *would* take the sort of contrary view now, wouldn't they! Find me one of the objectors who hasn't, at some time in the last two years, objected to something else the management of the ship has decided.

or

5) "It feels wrong".


I'd have said that 'fair play' can well and truly be intuited and that there are plenty of decisions which leave themselves open to questioning even by those with a different Myers Briggs score. Emperor's new clothes and all that.

RR

[ 12. October 2006, 14:50: Message edited by: Raspberry Rabbit ]

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))

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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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RR et al.
I would love a response to my earlier comment if you all are still fondling your own feelings
quote:

You're also entitled to your opinions about nuclear physics. Just be warned that random guesswork will make you look equally stupid in either field.[where the two fields were public relations and physics]



--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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Probably because there is a long and venerable belief in the existence of a 'moral law within' and very little belief in the innate-ness of math and higher physics. Infidel twat!

RR

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Ah so the "moral law within" tells you all about the ins and outs of public relations practice? Moron.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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No it doesn't. But the comment which provoked the derision wasn't something along the lines of 'Gee this doesn't feel like 'best practise' according to the latest guidance from men with flipcharts who know shit'. The comment was that 'this feels wrong'.

And whether the actions taken were 'right' or not is very much to the point.

RR

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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But whether it was "right" or not requires knowledge of media relations.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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Mousethief wrote

quote:
But whether it was "right" or not requires knowledge of media relations.

I want to bless you! I want to hold you close to my breast, Mousethief. I have never seen anyone hand over a stonking great sig line with such economy of word and thought. How New Labour! Can it be done? It is 'virtuous' in the old pagan sense of its 'effectiveness' rather than in the sense of it being a good or an evil act.

Now you know why we occasionally need people to pipe in from the cheap seats that something 'feels wrong'.

Bless you

RR

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))

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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
RR et al.
I would love a response to my earlier comment if you all are still fondling your own feelings
quote:

You're also entitled to your opinions about nuclear physics. Just be warned that random guesswork will make you look equally stupid in either field.[where the two fields were public relations and physics]


Sorry---real life intervened...

Gwai---So having reservations about the ethical nature of a choice means that I'm "fondling my feelings"? Guilty as charged, then.

Do you *really* want to take the position that only "experts" in a field can raise ethical questions about something? I suggest that is known as "putting the fox in charge of the hen house."

Mousethief---I didn't know that I needed to check with my local media relations guru to determine whether something is wrong or not. Silly me---I thought Scripture, tradition, and reason had some things to say about that. Thanks for the heads-up on that change in praxis on ethical decision-making!

The bottom line is this---the Ship broke longstanding policy and outed a Shipmate and called in the big journalistic guns to help do it.

After reading the helpful posts by cometchaser, fabula rasa, Callan, and Alan, I now have a better understanding of the UK media context and why the Admins believed they were doing the right thing.

I still don't have to like it, however. And I don't. I'm not sure why Gwai feels the need to browbeat everyone into agreeing that the decision was a good one. It still stinks to me, because it sets two precedents---outing of Shipmates based on private communications (rather than something they said on the boards) and doing so in collusion with the national media.

(And that in no way lets Cosmo off the hook. I am fully aware that, had he not been a lying asshole, none of this would have come up.)

Simon and Company knew this would cause a ruckus---as it has. They knew not everyone would agree with what they had done---I don't. End of story.


Charlotte---I was just getting tired of the accusation that, if you questioned the decision, that meant you weren't "supportive of management." (I still have yet to get a satisfactory definition of what that means, BTW. Though I did donate to the Organ Fund yesterday, so I hope that demonstrates to some small degree that I do, indeed, support the Powers That Be. [Biased] )

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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(bloody x-posting! this is to Raspberry Rabbit)

Shove your blessing up your ass.

I think the point is that minimizing harm is good, and knowing what minimizes harm requires some savvy.

[ 12. October 2006, 15:44: Message edited by: Mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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RR - I understand what you are saying ( being an N too ). Yes it does feel wrong. The whole mess feels wrong. Having said that, Cosmo falt wrong to me from the first time I met him on the ship.

These feelings are important and valid, but the explanations and explorations as to why a) it feels wrong and b) this was done anyway have helped me to see that it was wrong, but the lesser of many wrongs. Nothing in this situation would have felt right. This was, from the start, a lose-lose situation. The only question is how everyone could lose as little as possible.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
The bottom line is this---the Ship broke longstanding policy and outed a Shipmate and called in the big journalistic guns to help do it.

The bottom line is that you are, as usual, full of shit. If you think one lonely Times blogger is "big journalistic guns" you're an idiot.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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Right, let's try this analogy.

You find an unexploded bomb in your cellar. You could call in a trained bomb disposal team to carefully, safely and professionally carry out a controlled explosion, so that no one gets hurt. Or you could decide that deliberately causing an explosion "just feels wrong", and instead just throw it out into the street. People are more likely to get hurt that way, but at least you won't have deliberately caused the explosion.

Which is the better course of action?

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about RR. I think I'm following now.

I disagree with MT that knowledge of right or wrong in this instance is determined by a knowledge of the industry. Well, I'm not so sure we disagree I just think that his wording is very misleading.

I have had plenty of "bad feelings" about things based on my own moral compass. sometimes, I learn more from people who know more about it, and I'm able to redefine my feelings, based on more information. I could quote a ton of issues from the Church alone where this has applied.

So, no, of course knowledge of media relations is not required to know the difference between right or wrong in this case. but clarification of the motives and potential outcome based on industry knowledge could change one's view.

Like I said to Paige - I can totally see why people took this revelation as badly as they did, and found it as shocking. it does look bad. So does the Eucharist, to uninitiated eyes.

sometimes a little background is revealing.

Do you think that something just "feeling wrong" justifies ignoring any evidence that it may have been the right choice afterall?

Comet

(no doubt I've cross posted, I'm multitasking seriously)

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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Savvy just doesn't fill the bill entirely here, Mousethief. Savvy you can learn from a book. Righteousness, fair play, moderation, not crushing the bruised reed - that comes from somewhere else. Cosmo set himself up in a tricky situation for a whole series of completely unnecessary reasons. If he had a couple of dragon women or dragon men in his congregation who were gunning for him and if they were relatively intelligent people they could have figured this out for themselves and outed him to the Archdeacon. They didn't actually require a series of heroic actions on our part for his duplicity to come out. Action could have been taken which was appropriate for a virtual community to take viz. exclusion from our forum. We went one better - two or three better actually - and the decision to out somebody to the national press was a step too far. Face it, we went postal on him. The decision to get in touch with the national press and, in so doing - intentionally or otherwise - perhaps to force some bishop's or archdeacon's or PCC's hand was just the icing on the cake. It was not necessary.

When you realize that you have power over somebody because of information that you have on them it behooves you to ask not only whether an action is defensible or not but whether it is the right thing to do. One might ask what it would feel like if somebody held that sort of information about us - and there are few of us who make it through life without doing something stupid somewhere along the line. That is - unavoidably - going to require the agency of whatever feelings we still have.

RR

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))

Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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See comet, I do think you need some knowledge of what's going on. How can you say whether AM is doing the moral thing if you don't know what he's doing! I didn't know that giving a story to one journalist minimizes a story if done right but now that I have been told, it makes sense. Yet, my "feelings" would never have guessed that.
I think RR and co are denying that AM could be minimizing the story because his course just doesn't feel right to them.

[ 12. October 2006, 16:07: Message edited by: Gwai ]

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

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Apropos of nothing in particular, but I haven't thought of Pirandello in years until this mess blew up, but he could certainly make a play of it – so many shifting layers of reality/unreality to play with. The character I’m most interested in, oddly enough, is the disgruntled parishioner who started the whole ball rolling. He or she is the shadowy figure in the background doubtlessly rubbing his or her hands in glee at the comeuppance of the hated (one assumes) vicar.

There’s something there that’s not quite right. Can’t quite put my finger on it though. A whole ‘nother layer of deceit I suspect.

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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
The bottom line is that you are, as usual, full of shit.

I accept that this is entirely possible... [Biased]

quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
If you think one lonely Times blogger is "big journalistic guns" you're an idiot.

This wasn't "one lonely Times blogger," Mousethief. This was the religion correspondent for one of the largest newspapers in the UK. But don't let the facts get in your way...

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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Does Ruth Gedhill's column even make it into the print version? I know that in our paper the bloggers don't.

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Maybe I'm the only one who noticed on the Styx thread that the *usual* method of press release for the SOF is to send things to tons o' journalists?

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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Does Ruth Gedhill's column even make it into the print version? I know that in our paper the bloggers don't.

Her blog doesn't but her articles and columns do.

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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.

If only.

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Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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The solution - in which an individual's employment and public standing is made vulnerable - described as being a wee tiny thing (it was just some lonely blogger we contacted - not any journalistic big guns)

The problem - wherein a fellow reviews his own performance in the pulpit and a parishioner complains - described as being something along the lines of a public attack (it was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off).

To paraphrase Paige - 'something doesn't feel right here'.

RR

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Ancient Mariner

Sip the ship
# 4

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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
This wasn't "one lonely Times blogger," Mousethief. This was the religion correspondent for one of the largest newspapers in the UK. But don't let the facts get in your way...

After more than 120 posts I'm still waiting for someone to tell me of a more effective, seasoned way to deal with the mainstream media. I chose to inform Ruth Gledhill of The Times because, as I said many posts ago, she understands the theological world we inhabit. While she is hardly tame, she is certainly informed.

The option, of course, is to throw the story out as a free-for-all, so some cub reporter, say, on the Reading Evening Chronicle, can screw it up, big-time - dramatising a complicated story in all the wrong ways to advance his own agenda and career (I've worked with too many of those).

Call me a tart by all means but please respect that, through some painful experiences, I now choose carefully on which car windows to tap.

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Ship of Fools' first novel, Rattles & Rosettes, is the tale of two football (soccer) fans: 16-year-old Tom in 1914 and Dan in 2010. More at www.rattlesandrosettes.com

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:
The bottom line is that you are, as usual, full of shit. If you think one lonely Times blogger is "big journalistic guns" you're an idiot.
As Paige said, the religion correspondent of the Times is a pretty large piece of ordnance.

Actually, the whole point of the press release was that it needed a big journalistic gun. The Times gets the exclusive, so no-one else bothers. That is the rationale that has been set forth on this thread. (Which I more or less accept.) Clearly that strategy would not have been so effective had it turned up in a local paper in Reading. Getting the story onto Ruth Gledhill's blog and page 32 of the dead tree edition is the Faustian bargain that prevents Bates, Thompson, Carey et. al. from competing to get their own version of events into print.

Oddly, I think that this is a consequentialist argument. It produces the greatest good for the greatest number, as it were. I think its critics have subconsiously taken on a kind of Catholic moral theology in which talking to the press is an intrinsic moral evil and cannot, therefore, be justified by reference to the good results thereof. Whilst I am not wild about the press, I must say that I think this is excessive.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
Charlotte---I was just getting tired of the accusation that, if you questioned the decision, that meant you weren't "supportive of management." (I still have yet to get a satisfactory definition of what that means, BTW. Though I did donate to the Organ Fund yesterday, so I hope that demonstrates to some small degree that I do, indeed, support the Powers That Be. [Biased] )

Cool. If only everyone I argued with on the boards would be motivated to do the same -- Simon could retire.

As for what "supportive of management" is -- I suggest you buy a dictionary if it's really all that hard to understand.

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
...So having reservations about the ethical nature of a choice means that I'm "fondling my feelings"? Guilty as charged, then.

...

Perhaps, then, you and your feelings could get a room - fondling in public is not a pretty sight.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I think its critics have subconsiously taken on a kind of Catholic moral theology in which talking to the press is an intrinsic moral evil and cannot, therefore, be justified by reference to the good results thereof. Whilst I am not wild about the press, I must say that I think this is excessive.

Upon reflection, I think you may have hit the nail on the head, Callan. And I confess that the contributions by AM, cometchaser, etc. have shored up my bad feelings about the press in general---especially the need to make "Faustian bargains" with them. I shall now have to add "journalists" to the list of those towards whom I pray for a change of heart. [Biased]

Ancient Mariner---I do NOT think you are a "tart" (though your comment about tapping on windows made me laugh). I just wish you had made a different decision, that's all. Raspberry Rabbit summed up my reasons for feeling that way quite well.

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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Can someone tell me what would have happened if nothing had been done? If Cosmo had been berated on the ship as Cosmo and not Fr Whoosits and then summarily banned with the Riot Act being read to anyone else on board who might try the same thing? It would have then been up to Mrs Dragon and Mr Goulish from the parish of Shady Acres - if they so desired -to go to the local rag in Reading and complain about their vicar.

The idea that we routinely send out press releases certainly doesn't include press releases which give the names of those who have committed some sort of malfeasance on and off line. We can dispense with saying that this is usual practise because this is a quite novel departure for us.

So what about the ticking bomb bit? What could the possibile repercussions for the Ship have been (realistic ones, please!) that would require Maximum Bob, Extreme Sue and Fairly Exigent Ralph to pull out Emergency Media Plan A and start the damage control?

RR

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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AM - I think you should use Media Tart as a new description [Snigger]

Should this ever happen again ( lets hope not ), if you let me know, I will identify the sleaziest paper in Reading, and let them know, with lots of suggestions of a cover-up. I will also look at selling the story to a Sunday Paper - all money recieved would, of course, be donated to the ship.

Maybe then people would realise just how bad this could be.

My dislike of Cosmo means that this is the route I would suggest for dealing with it, of course. I mean, if you're going to fuck the sleazeball, do it properly.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598

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quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
Can someone tell me what would have happened if nothing had been done?

quote:
Originally posted by CS Lewis:
"You mean," said Lucy rather faintly, "that it would have turned out all right - somehow? But how? Please, Aslan! Am I not to know?"

"To know what would have happened, child?" said Aslan. "No. Nobody is ever told that."

"O dear," said Lucy.

- Chris.

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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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Raspberry Rabbit

I think that what others are suggesting is something like this. You are judging the actions of people who manage news for a living on the basis of what feels right to you. What you intuit.

BTW in Myers Briggs terms I'm "N" almost off the scale. It may help if we apply a bit of Myers Briggs to what is going on. In this sort of situation there is also the question of how the N interrelates with the T/F factor. Whether news management behaviour is ethical or unethical is not determined by the perceived effect and effectiveness of the actions, but by the values which underly those actions. (That's an F factor as I'm sure you recognise). The Admins in general and Ancient Mariner in particular are telling you that their actions were based on defensive and damage-limiting intentions. They appear to have been effective as well. What your intuition seems to be doing is causing you to continue to doubt their motives and their truthfulness. Now that is also an issue of morality. It is perfectly OK to question motives and intentions on the basis of intuition - but once you have an explanation, the situation changes.

Do you have any reason to continue to distrust their explanation? Sustaining disbelief in someone else's integrity after explanations have been given is not just a matter of intuition. It calls to mind another question. Are you being fair? To the E and A in general and to Ancient Mariner in particular. You appear to be impugning their integrity on the basis of your intuition alone. That is another F factor - but now it is a question of your values. I dont know whether you prefer T or F, but this is a case where a bit more T - ing might be fruitful.

(BTW in Myers Briggs terms I always score a slight preference for F but I can T when I need to).

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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Barnabas62 wrote

quote:
Do you have any reason to continue to distrust their explanation? Sustaining disbelief in someone else's integrity after explanations have been given is not just a matter of intuition.
I think there are any number of reasons to distrust the explanations given here and on the ongoing Styx thread. Not all of them reasons having to do with my particular intuition. I was in fact reaction to the derision shown to a particular poster who mentioned that she 'felt' something was the wrong course of action. All this business of claiming that the detractors were 'fondling' their 'feelings' and that those who took action in the way they did were simply following ship's policy on putting out regular press releases (notwithstanding the novelty of the present action) or following some sort of best practice.

There was nothing necessary in this action. It didn't have to be. People did what they wanted to do - and did so in a cavalier manner with little regard for the consequences. They did this to somebody unpleasant and troublesome at a point where they found the goods on him. People who ought to have known better. We make fun of anybody who says 'I thought this was a Christian website' - even moreso when he makes the statement on a Hell thread. I'm frequently cross with people on the Ship. I'm rarely ashamed of them though.

The explanations for 'going to press' are all complete two-flushers. Flies are leaving Scotland as we speak in great stinking clouds to fly south and feast on these explanations. So yes - since you ask - I question the motives of all sorts of folks even after the explanations given.

RR

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Rasberry Rabbit:

quote:
So what about the ticking bomb bit? What could the possibile repercussions for the Ship have been (realistic ones, please!) that would require Maximum Bob, Extreme Sue and Fairly Exigent Ralph to pull out Emergency Media Plan A and start the damage control?
What actually happened was a reasonably sympathetic piece of coverage in Ruth Gledhill's blog and in the Times. If you object so strongly to seeing Cosmo's RL identity splashed across the papers you might pause to recollect that what could have happened was rather more coverage of a rather less sympathetic nature. Spawn of this parish has already mentioned that he would have followed the story up, and probably in a less sympathetic manner had he not been scooped by La Gledhill and thinks that his colleagues would have probably done so as well, in more or less sympathetic ways. As I imagine Spawn probably does unsympathetic quite well I think the services of Messrs Maximum and Exigent and Ms Extreme seem to be justified.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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So you're saying that Spawn would have outed the individual in question? I'm assuming that we'd no longer have the pleasure of his company since he'd have been gone from the Ship if he'd done that. It might have been a good scoop for him but it'd have been his last unless he'd been authorized to do so and given the information. This 'outing' required a decision from the top. What you're saying is that after such a decision was made, AM could have chosen Spawn's tiny readership over Ruth Gledhill's larger readership? Fair enough - that would be worse. But it still would have required AM or somebody in management to have sent the details on to Spawn since it was they and not Spawn who were doing the investigation.

What I was saying is that Cosmo could have been banned, the two MW reviews deleted and the community warned off further malfeasance. It could have ended there. Nobody is going to react curiously to the deletion of two MW reports and an online bollocking of an anonymous avatar.

Am I incorrect?

RR

[ 12. October 2006, 17:43: Message edited by: Raspberry Rabbit ]

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
What I was saying is that Cosmo could have been banned, the two MW reviews deleted and the community warned off further malfeasance. It could have ended there. Nobody is going to react curiously to the deletion of two MW reports and an online bollocking of an anonymous avatar.

Nobody? Read the article again. Cosmo reacted within hours of the reports having been pulled, following on, he says, an email from a friend telling him the reports had been pulled.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Rasberry Rabbit:

quote:
What I was saying is that Cosmo could have been banned, the two MW reviews deleted and the community warned off further malfeasance. It could have ended there. Nobody is going to react curiously to the deletion of two MW reports and an online bollocking of an anonymous avatar.

Am I incorrect?

Probably. If one were to ban Cosmo, delete the two mystery worshipper reports and read the riot act over MWing oneself it would hardly be difficult to deduce that Cosmo was Fr. David Peters, particularly as a number of us had already worked it out for ourselves. Of course, Spawn may have calculated that he preferred being a Shipmate in good standing to the pleasure of getting a story in the C of E Newspaper or the Mail but there are plenty of journalists who lurk on the Ship who aren't Shipmates.

The trouble with 'cover it up and hope no-one notices' is that when it is good it is very, very good and when it is bad it is horrid. People who deal with news media have two choices. Either you give journalists the story you want them to tell or you keep your head down. If they don't notice you or deign to notice you favourably you are in clover. If they decide to take against you you are in the ess-aitch-one-tee. So keeping your head down is not, as they say, an option. This is the kind of thing they tell trainee government press officers on day one of their induction course. My views on this matter are formed from working for a government department which went from 'heads down' to 'pro-active news management' and comparing the sort of headlines we got under the different approaches.

If AM and co. were going to treat the press as the enemy the only sensible response was to do nothing or to ban Cosmo on spurious grounds (with the attendant sixteen page thread in the Styx) and quietly pull the MW reports at a later date. I think this would almost certainly have worked but it would have been much less ethical than what they actually did.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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So? He'd presumably have been told why. But I doubt that Reuters would have started putting 'MW-Reports-Pulled-From-Ship' on ticker tape anywhere. I'm talking about the alleged press curiosity about a pulled MW report, not Cosmo's pique over the matter.

RR

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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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warning: this post has nothing to do with Cosmo, AM, or evenreally the Ship. Deal.

I'm going to indulge in a petulant moment based on a statement of Paige's. Paige - this is not an attack on you, you have just voiced what I see on these boards fairly regularly. This is a broader rant.
quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
And I confess that the contributions by AM, cometchaser, etc. have shored up my bad feelings about the press in general---especially the need to make "Faustian bargains" with them. I shall now have to add "journalists" to the list of those towards whom I pray for a change of heart. [Biased]

Tell you what, don't pray for me to have a change of heart. pray for yourself and your neighbors and all the Shipmates and everyone else who gives two shits about the news.

Now, I am the very first to say that most corporate media is failing at it's job. it is being too driven by ad dollars.

the ad dollars are driven by YOU.

You don't like the way the press does business? quit buying the paper. quit visiting the website. turn off your radio and for heaven's sake shut off the light box.

The media's tactics are immoral? quit condoning it. Quit paying for it.

I'm sick and tired of the world saying the media is so freaking evil while they have the TV droning in the background and subscriptions to 5 newspapers and the radio set to stun.

Thing is people - you all do this to yourself.

I think most news organizations are failing in their mission, assuming their mission really is to inform the people objectively. But they're failing because the people are asking them to. they're asking them for sensationalist news. they're asking for "naughty vicar" stories and ignoring "war crimes" stories.

the nasty reality of "if it bleeds it leads" is merely because people want to hear about blood more than charities making a difference.

don't believe me? when you're listening to the radio or TV drone in the background, what story makes you stop the conversation and turn the volume up?

pay attention to it. you might be amazed. and probably a little embarrassed. I know I am.

I am in the hard-earned role of being a news director. (would be a "managing editor" in the print world) This means I get to have a lot of control over what does constitute the news on my radio station. So I have made policies based on my own moral values.

for instance, "innocent until proven guilty" means I don't air the names of suspects in crimes, unless they are being sought by police.

Do you know how much shit I take for this policy? and not from the journalistic world (they're just amazed I can pull it off) but from the listeners. the consumers, just like you.

It's all fine and dandy to take the high moral ground and curse the press, but it's the public who demands to know the name of the guy who may or may not be a rapist or a burglar or a vicar who writes his own MW reports.

Simon and the gang could have kept Cosmo's real name out of this. that's their decision. but within 12 hours tops, we all would have known. and we would have speculated. and stories would have been told. and not just us, who really count for nothing in this story, but the people of Reading.

What if their guesses had the wrong vicar? what then? what if speculation had him as, say, not being a real vicar at all, but some wierdo impersonator? because once the rumor mill starts, it gets ugly.

this scenario may make you laugh but I've seen crazier.

I support their decision on this because they know their audience, and in my limited experience I would say the editors themselves are very moral human beings.

You think they didn't take into account the effects of their story? that's just naive. And offensive to them, really. do you really have such low opinions of the moral compass of people who create and run these boards? if so, go away. why are you here?

Ancient Mariner mentioned the young gun reporter aspect of this issue. I ask that you all not disregard the harm he is concerned with here. The harm one glory hound reporter with little oversight can do is immeasurable. the stories I could tell.

The harm done, though, is again because in fact the audience rewards sensationalism. it rewards "vicar gone bad" stories as much as it rewards celebrity hijinx stories.

ask ten people in your immediate vicinity who Paris Hilton is. then ask them to name the nominees for the Nobel Peace Prize. Both are in the news, but guess what people tune in to?

So pray for me, fine. but in those prayers, how about asking God to support me as I try and balance my moral values every day with the public who wants blood and sex and famous people and mighty-fallen. Pray that i can keep my "dead guy on the highway" story short enough to slip in my "how the government is spending your tax money" story. Pray that people like you will listen to the story that really matters for a change.

And turn off your fucking TV.

Comet

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Ancient Mariner

Sip the ship
# 4

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quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:


What I was saying is that Cosmo could have been banned, the two MW reviews deleted and the community warned off further malfeasance. It could have ended there. Nobody is going to react curiously to the deletion of two MW reports and an online bollocking of an anonymous avatar.

Am I incorrect?

RR

Yes, you are incorrect. All this was discussed and has been explained on The Styx so I'm not going to cover the ground again - I would ask you respectfully to read the thread thoroughly.

Let me move things on a little. I fear that, unless the central character in all of this makes a full and credible statement, whatever limited damage-controlled media coverage there has been to date might well be supersceded - beyond any control. Put simply, we are being watched. And next time we may not be able to bend a sympathetic ear.

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Ship of Fools' first novel, Rattles & Rosettes, is the tale of two football (soccer) fans: 16-year-old Tom in 1914 and Dan in 2010. More at www.rattlesandrosettes.com

Posts: 2582 | From: St Helens (near Liverpool) UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
# 3080

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Right - I'd hate to let anyone think my loyalty was an issue or that I was a fellow traveller with the enemy. These are dangerous times, after all! After Hussein there's Kim Il Jong. After Gledhill there's Spawn!

I read the arguments for sending shopping Cosmo to the press. You don't need to go into them again. They were bollocks then and regurgitated bollocks aren't any better.

RR

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Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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cometchaser---that would have been a most impressive rant...*if* I had said I was praying for you to have a change of heart. Read carefully and note that I was praying for myself to have the change in my attitude towards journalists (as I have to pray about my attitude toward Republicans and schismatic bishops.... [Devil] ).

Just needed to note that...

And, FTR, I don't watch television OR listen to the radio. Why? Because I got tired of the inane chatter on radio and sick of TV reporters shoving a microphone in the face of some grieving person and saying "How do you feel about losing your entire family in a fire?" [Mad]

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:


There was nothing necessary in this action. It didn't have to be. People did what they wanted to do - and did so in a cavalier manner with little regard for the consequences. They did this to somebody unpleasant and troublesome at a point where they found the goods on him. People who ought to have known better.

The explanations for 'going to press' are all complete two-flushers. Flies are leaving Scotland as we speak in great stinking clouds to fly south and feast on these explanations. So yes - since you ask - I question the motives of all sorts of folks even after the explanations given.

RR

These are not reasons, Raspberry Rabbit, they are assertions of judgement. You have judged their actions to be wrong. What reasons do you have for these assertions?

I'm going to link in a key post from the Styx thread. Read what IngoB has to say here. IngoB sees these things differently to me. But he has, correctly in my view, withdrawn his assertions about the integrity of the E and A. Should you believe that he has done so in order to retain his position as Host on the private board, I can assure you that such a view would both impugn his integrity and it would be wrong.

What IngoB withdrew were assertions about the character and actions of the E and A which are quite similar to those from you I've just quoted above. He thought about the fairness of it overnight and then posted as he did. His post does him great credit IMO. All I'm asking you do is reflect.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged



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