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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Why not just have a siren go off? "FAT-so, FAT-so, FAT-so!"
Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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I know this isn't my blog, though it's beginning to look increasingly like it today (I'm hanging around beside the computer trying to encourage the bunch of muppets at the agency to get off their bums and sort out the contract for the nanny who's supposed to start on Wednesday. How's that for bloggy?)

But I just thought I'd add this datapoint for those who think the overweight are eating ginormous amounts of food all the time.

This last week or so I've been tracking all my food intake in a geeky spreadsheet. And I'm being honest (come on, nobody lies to their food diary in the first week). And I'm having real difficulty reaching 1000 calories a day. So much so that most evening I'm saying, bugger, I'd better eat a banana just to get a respectable total.

I'm not dieting, I'm really just doing this to keep Mr Nui company, this is just pretty much what I normally eat on a day without treats (which is most days).

According to the BBC health site, someone of my age, weight and height ought to be using 1500 calories just to survive if they're completely sedentary - and I'm not, I walk most days, pushing a pushchair, and swim once or twice a week.

It's unnatural, I tell you, unnatural. If I don't start losing weight I'm going to take this food diary and go to the doctor.

[ 08. January 2007, 14:28: Message edited by: Iole Nui ]

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Oh brill, Twilight. There I was, feeling all full of self-righteous indignation, and now you've got me all guilty for casually using 'thin bitch' earlier in the thread...


Relax Your Rodently One. We're on the same side here. I would have done the "not-worthy" smiley on your earlier post, but I hate that thing.


Duchess; really. I've never seen RooK work so hard to appease someone, usually by now he'd be getting out the farm implements.

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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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To be fair we also have the right to attempt to murder our fellow citizens--who have the right to try to get us punished.

[crossposted with everyone. Responding to Rook's post.]

[ 08. January 2007, 14:58: Message edited by: Gwai ]

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Scholar Gypsy
Shipmate
# 7210

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quote:
Originally posted by Iole Nui:
I know this isn't my blog, though it's beginning to look increasingly like it today (I'm hanging around beside the computer trying to encourage the bunch of muppets at the agency to get off their bums and sort out the contract for the nanny who's supposed to start on Wednesday. How's that for bloggy?)

But I just thought I'd add this datapoint for those who think the overweight are eating ginormous amounts of food all the time.

This last week or so I've been tracking all my food intake in a geeky spreadsheet. And I'm being honest (come on, nobody lies to their food diary in the first week). And I'm having real difficulty reaching 1000 calories a day. So much so that most evening I'm saying, bugger, I'd better eat a banana just to get a respectable total.

I'm not dieting, I'm really just doing this to keep Mr Nui company, this is just pretty much what I normally eat on a day without treats (which is most days).

According to the BBC health site, someone of my age, weight and height ought to be using 1500 calories just to survive if they're completely sedentary - and I'm not, I walk most days, pushing a pushchair, and swim once or twice a week.

It's unnatural, I tell you, unnatural. If I don't start losing weight I'm going to take this food diary and go to the doctor.

This isn't just you. I haven't actually been keeping a food diary (though I've been meaning to start!) but I got pretty conscious of what I was eating before Christmas, and I'm sure I wasn't eating 1500 calories a day, and I don't have a particularly sedentary lifestyle, and I didn't lose very much weight either. Odd.
Posts: 822 | From: Oxford | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Yes, I said it. I DO have cynical suspicions about personal assertions made by people on the internet. It DOES seem to me that many people think that "blobular shaped" people are desperate and have low standards and some might try to take advantage of that.

AND YOU READ THIS INTO EVERY ONE OF MY POSTS HERE... WHY?

Honestly duchess, snap out of it. Give me all the grief you want for having said it that way. Argue with me all you want, because I do still think the same basic cynical and mean thought. But to assert that this is the "crux" of my interaction here feels like deliberate stupidity on your part, and it's pissing me off.

I have tried to answer your question, but I am afraid I can't seem to give you an answer that satifies you. I am sad to read your answer to my quesiton, but I do thank you for answering the question. And I will now drop it after I post this...

quote:
I think that all of us have the right to make public comment about pretty much everything that is available for public notice. And about most stuff that isn't, too.
And that was me asserting my right, to comment on everything you said in public on this board in this thread (the whole crux of the matter thang).

Buh-bye.

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098

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years ago (mid 80's) I worked for 5 years in a residential tx center for people with eating disorders--read mostly severe obesity. I know that a lot of science has come down the pike since then to change the way we understand issues around obesity. However, i do think I remember that cutting calories over a period of time (i.e. dieting) was considered to cause the body to be more efficient in conserving energy, thus reducing weight loss.
This might be relevant to some of the posts.

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
That's what offends me. It's this belief that we, any of us, have the right to comment on another person's body size.

Egad, here we are - back where I got lured in to this bottomless pit of my own fear and loathing.

I hate to say it, but as much as I cringe from polite society actually engaging in such rudeness, I think that all of us have the right to make public comment about pretty much everything that is available for public notice. And about most stuff that isn't, too.


Give me a break. Of course I wasn't talking about legal rights. You don't have the right to tell me what I should weigh or how much I should eat because it's not part of your moral, professional or legal duty (definition 16 in my dictionary.) You won't go to jail for telling me i'm fat but it's none of your business either.
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Let's blog women! You know in the beginning of all this I said I had given up all sweets two years ago, lost 60 lbs the first year gained back almost 30 in the second?

Just last week, I decided that before I started another year of this deprivation I would give myself a week off. Last week I ate every sugar laden food I had missed during the past two years. I had candy, cake, pie, cookies, doughnuts, ice-cream, ribs baked in sugary BBQ sauce and biscuits dripping with honey. I not only ate every fattening thing I ever liked, I baked all my family's favorites and ate half of that stuff too.

I weighed myself today. For the first time in a year, I actually lost weight.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Let's blog women!

Spare us. We don't care. If you really want to blog, sign up for a blogging site.

More relevant ... the NY Times has an article today on schools sending home notes telling parents what their kids' BMI is, and the kids in turn getting freaky about food. We're talking about kids as young as six. Talk about having the fatso siren go off.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Let's blog women!

Spare us. We don't care. If you really want to blog, sign up for a blogging site.

More relevant ... the NY Times has an article today on schools sending home notes telling parents what their kids' BMI is, and the kids in turn getting freaky about food. We're talking about kids as young as six. Talk about having the fatso siren go off.

Let's publish the BMIs of the legislators that think this is a great idea, and the teachers too although I expect some of them reckon it is a daft idea as they have rather more contact with children.

Another I heard last week was that our government is showing its concern about eating disorders by banning websites that glorify eating disorders. If that spreads to TV, they will have to close VH1 down!

One thing that won't ever appear on the "Pond Differences" thread is the way that only Congress or Parliament pass or propose stupid legislation.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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taken from the link to the arcile in RuthW's post:Holly Berguson, the homecoming queen at North Penn Junior-Senior High School here, wears a size 20, a fact cited by her many admirers as proof of this community’s generous attitude toward weight, its proud indifference to the “Baywatch” bodies on television.

Thanks for posting that article, RuthW. I was feeling a bit down today and that paragraph alone made my day. (I am the same size as Holly, well 18-20 depending on the company making the clothes). Shows maybe there is some progress in some parts of the country with views on body-size. [Overused]

[Once again, freaked out I found something this uplifting in hell.]

[ 08. January 2007, 17:28: Message edited by: duchess ]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Let's blog women!

Spare us. We don't care. If you really want to blog, sign up for a blogging site.

More relevant ... the NY Times has an article today on schools sending home notes telling parents what their kids' BMI is, and the kids in turn getting freaky about food. We're talking about kids as young as six. Talk about having the fatso siren go off.

That's interesting, Ruth.

I thought my post was a little bit interesting and relevant, too, since the OP was about passing out warnings geared toward telling women to "do something" about their weight. In many people's minds the "do something" is "quit eating sweets" and my point is that very few people actually know a fool proof way to lose weight or, as Newman's Own pointed out, very few people can tell by looking at a person, just what they've been eating or where they are in their personal weight loss story.

The mention of blogging was just a joke to Ione Nui about sharing diet experiences.

This whole trend lately of telling people to "get a blog" has me confused. Are we not to mention any personal experiences here anymore or are personal stories limited to shipmates from California?

Another question comes to mind as to the use of 'we" in, "We don't care." Was this based on another poll in the Circus or just your massive ego?

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This whole trend lately of telling people to "get a blog" has me confused. Are we not to mention any personal experiences here anymore or are personal stories limited to shipmates from California?

See, there was me thinking Ruth's post was in answer to you posting

quote:
Let's blog women!
It goes without saying that these boards are not here to be your (anyone's) blog. Posts about the subject of weight (see also "fat bitches", "lardarses", "skinny runts" &c.) are fine, pointless anecdotes about dieting and/or Bridget Jones-esque calorie counting aren't. Kapische?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This whole trend lately of telling people to "get a blog" has me confused. Are we not to mention any personal experiences here anymore or are personal stories limited to shipmates from California?

See, there was me thinking Ruth's post was in answer to you posting

quote:
Let's blog women!
It goes without saying that these boards are not here to be your (anyone's) blog. Posts about the subject of weight (see also "fat bitches", "lardarses", "skinny runts" &c.) are fine, pointless anecdotes about dieting and/or Bridget Jones-esque calorie counting aren't. Kapische?

My post, as I've already said, was in response to Iole Nui saying
quote:
I know this isn't my blog, though it's beginning to look increasingly like it today <snip>
She seemed apologetic about the blog- like aspects of her post and I was just trying to say, something like, don't feel bad, mine has similar aspects.

My post wasn't really a blog. Rat's wasn't either. No one has listed all the food she had to eat today and it's calorie count and no one is coming back daily to do that.

Don't worry about me taking up any more precious bandwidth with my pointless anecdotes -- I'm out of here.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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I haven't posted much to this thread, though I have ample, sotospeak, qualifications.

My current physique owes something to my genes (the Irish peasantry didn't breed for elfin); something to modern life/work (I should be carrying carthorses or something rather than sitting in an office all day) but mostly, mostly, it is a tribute to many years of fine meals in good company, to sociability and hedonism.

But the negative perceptions of others are not a problem - for I am invisible. Doubly so, for I am not only Fat but Old (well, 50+, same thing). I am out of the sexual market, on which the present age sets such store. Well, IMO cooking lasts longer than kissing - or, at least, you can enjoy it with more people simultaneously.

So, do what it takes to get laid as much as you'd like - but I wouldn't let it get in the way of enjoying yourself.

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

So, do what it takes to get laid as much as you'd like - but I wouldn't let it get in the way of enjoying yourself.

Er, no. No need for that. I would rather eat good food out dining.

*added more words, so that that this could not be made to be dirty. thx.

[ 08. January 2007, 20:42: Message edited by: duchess ]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Twilight, no one called your post a blog. I responded only to your call for people to blog. So unbunch your panties.
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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On the other hand, what are we to do about really fat kids? They're setting out toward adulthood with a huge disadvantage. And kids didn't used to be fat very often, so again, something has changed. What's to be done? I'm not saying sending notes home is good, but what is the solution?

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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chive

Ship's nude
# 208

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
More relevant ... the NY Times has an article today on schools sending home notes telling parents what their kids' BMI is, and the kids in turn getting freaky about food. We're talking about kids as young as six. Talk about having the fatso siren go off.

This reminds me of my entirely reasonable GP who put me on a diet aged 5 because I weighed the same as my older sister. The fact that I was 2 inches taller than her wasn't taken into the equation but it did spell the beginning of a lifetime of fucked up food intake.

But then I'm fat because I eat a lot of shite and I don't get enough exercise. I eat a lot partly because the doctor has now, in his infinite wisdom, put me on a drug that increases appetite. I eat a lot of shit partly because I'm a shift worker which can make it difficult to eat regularly, partly because I don't know how to cook and partly because I'm lazy.

The reason the doctor put me on said drugs is because I'm depressed. And because I'm depressed I comfort eat. Comfort eating and a drug that increases appetite is not a good combination. I don't get enough exercise. Part of the reason for this is that I'm depressed and the idea of leaving the house or being together enough to organise myself exercising in the house is not always possible.

I'm genetically fat - my parents are fat, my sisters are fat, my cousins are fat, my grandparents are fat. I patently have a genetic predisposition to be fat.

I don't know what the answer is. One of the answers is to change the drugs and hopefully I'll do that next month. But the other drug has to work in relation to the depression because I'd rather be fat and coping then losing weight and suicidal.

I wish it was as easy as eat less and exercise more. I wish it was but unfortunately when things get fucked up the whole picture gets fucked up and easy answers don't always help.

[ 08. January 2007, 22:55: Message edited by: chive ]

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by chive:
...This reminds me of my entirely reasonable GP who put me on a diet aged 5 because I weighed the same as my older sister. The fact that I was 2 inches taller than her wasn't taken into the equation but it did spell the beginning of a lifetime of fucked up food intake.

But then I'm fat because I eat a lot of shite and I don't get enough exercise. I eat a lot partly because the doctor has now, in his infinite wisdom, put me on a drug that increases appetite. I eat a lot of shit partly because I'm a shift worker which can make it difficult to eat regularly, partly because I don't know how to cook and partly because I'm lazy....


Your post could have been written by me. To save time ranting since i am at work and the subject is muy painful...I will say honestly that if my weight wasn't made to be such a big freakin' deal, there is slight chance I would not have such an emotional relationship to the food items.

I would say that loving your kidlets and building them up with love, good words...feeding them low glycemic healthy foods, making sure they get fun activities to move around, is what I would do should I get an opportunity in this life to have my own kidlets (outside of being a rather bossy evil auntie).

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
On the other hand, what are we to do about really fat kids? They're setting out toward adulthood with a huge disadvantage. And kids didn't used to be fat very often, so again, something has changed. What's to be done? I'm not saying sending notes home is good, but what is the solution?

If the parents need to have a note sent home to make them aware that their kids are really fat, then there's probably nothing that can be done. Personally I suspect that it's far more likely to be lifestyle and eating habits that are inherited, and that "genetics" is far less significant.

In winter we take PaterMajor along to Netta/FunNet/Introductory Netball on a Saturday morning, which seems like a great venue to see kids being active, healthy and happy. Except we regularly see the beach-ball shaped girl with the beach-ball shaped parents hoeing into hot chips and deep fried food at 9am. Maybe they're all on the same medication for inherited conditions, but I doubt it.

On the other hand, I was sobered to hear PaterMinor complain about that he is "fat". This from a six year old whose legs seem to be stretching up on a daily basis, and who likes cricket because he gets to run after the ball a lot. Somehow the messages are being heard by the wrong people.

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Put not your trust in princes.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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Cordelia! The spatula!

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098

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It's funny how the "fat" bells can ring. I'm not overweight but I still remember my father's rants about people (mostly women) he considered fat, and the really nasty things he'd say. Plus he was always commenting on my weight. Consequently, I am so freaked out about weight gain that I can easily starve myself and have to be very vigilant to engage in positive self care. [Frown]

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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WatersOfBabylon
Shipmate
# 11893

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
That's what offends me. It's this belief that we, any of us, have the right to comment on another person's body size.

Egad, here we are - back where I got lured in to this bottomless pit of my own fear and loathing.

I hate to say it, but as much as I cringe from polite society actually engaging in such rudeness, I think that all of us have the right to make public comment about pretty much everything that is available for public notice. And about most stuff that isn't, too.

I was a size 12-14 for a period of time. Then, I went to Africa, got a parasite, and lost tons of weight. I came back to the States, and for a period of about a month, I could not go an hour without someone telling me how great I looked. They were all "so happy for me" that I had lost so much weight.

Consequently, I developed an eating disorder and am 50 pounds lighter than I was a year ago, and much less happy.

So, RooK, I would have to most emphatically disagree with you. No matter how "public" someone's size is, it is not up for public discussion.

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
I have tried to answer your question, but I am afraid I can't seem to give you an answer that satifies you.

I was hoping you would notice that your answer really shouldn't satisfy you either. If you can drop it, though, it's dropped.

Back to the mainstream thread:

I'm still conflicted about my reactions to assertions that some people make that they eat relatively little and get significant exercise yet don't lose fat. Intellectually, I can piece together the fact that there can be different absorption rates, and that our physiologies can cling to a certain shape despite our earnest efforts. But my (admittedly biased) observed samples of ingested-portion size to patron size at public eating establishments have an extremely high degree of correlation. So on one hand I'm extremely sympathetic with the quite-rational arguments people have made to explain the myriad of circumstances leading to their current shape, but on the other I still hear myself thinking "eating less would probably help regardless".

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by WatersOfBabylon:
So, RooK, I would have to most emphatically disagree with you. No matter how "public" someone's size is, it is not up for public discussion.

Yeah, people are stupid. Boo fucking hoo. What precisely is there to discuss that can't possibly be uncomfortable for anybody? And who gets to decide what that is?
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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
On the other hand, what are we to do about really fat kids? They're setting out toward adulthood with a huge disadvantage. And kids didn't used to be fat very often, so again, something has changed. What's to be done? I'm not saying sending notes home is good, but what is the solution?

I think a lot of children do not have a safe place to play outdoors. In the inner city many children are parked in front of the TV as soon as they get home from school. If I were a parent living in a dangerous neighborhood, this is what I would do.

In more affluent communities, children are driven to various activities, many of which do not involve much physical excercise.

I don't see the answer.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098

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I suppose that one can make a comment about almost anything. The larger question is, "what's the point of the comment?" Or maybe, "what does the comment say about the character of the commenter?"
Re: someone who is overweight, such a remark seems to me to be patronizing, cruel, or uninformed. such remarks do not help the person lose weight in any sort of healthy way; usually it backfires.

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
...But my (admittedly biased) observed samples of ingested-portion size to patron size at public eating establishments have an extremely high degree of correlation. So on one hand I'm extremely sympathetic with the quite-rational arguments people have made to explain the myriad of circumstances leading to their current shape, but on the other I still hear myself thinking "eating less would probably help regardless".

I'm not going to deny that in many cases, you are right. But, take a look at this.

As a person with severe sleep apnea (mostly obstructive), I know that my weight was not under "my control" until I started hooking myself up to a C-Flex machine every night (about 9 months ago). Doing this stopped the weight gain I was having.

It is also interesting to note that I've been able to drop some weight and keep it off after my gall bladder came out about 3 months ago. This happened without restarting my lapsed gym membership.

So, I haven't had to make all that many changes to start having my trousers fit looser other than getting the medical care I needed. I suspect that as spring and summer roles around, I may continue to lose some weight, as I will probably be much more active than I have been.

YMMV.

(Of course, my doctors will get worried if I start taking off "too much" weight. Something about being a cancer survivor that stops your family doctor from suggesting, "maybe you should take off 10 pounds." Even my pulmonologist [sleep specialists are typically pulmonologists] won't even suggest it to me, because I asked him whether I should lose weight. [Cool] )

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Another I heard last week was that our government is showing its concern about eating disorders by banning websites that glorify eating disorders. If that spreads to TV, they will have to close VH1 down!

You know, this is stupid. 90% of people who appear on TV may be underweight, but as far as I know there are no programs that instruct girls how to be anorexic, and give them tips on how to trick their worried parents into thinking they're eating, etc which is what those websites do.

PaterMinor probably got called fat by someone, because pretty much everyone gets called fat at some point. I remember my classmates used to delight in calling one of my friends fat. She wasn't, but she had an obese aunt who lived with her (obese as in unable to get out of bed without assistance) and the insult would get her upset every time. I actually was fat, but had an immunity to the insult built up from years of my brother calling me fat, ugly, and stupid, so they mostly didn't bother with me.

What can we do?

Kids should get taught that most people on TV are on TV because they're thinner and prettier than others, not because they're representative.

And we really need to stop using food as a reward or punishment.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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WatersOfBabylon
Shipmate
# 11893

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Another I heard last week was that our government is showing its concern about eating disorders by banning websites that glorify eating disorders. If that spreads to TV, they will have to close VH1 down!

You know, this is stupid. 90% of people who appear on TV may be underweight, but as far as I know there are no programs that instruct girls how to be anorexic, and give them tips on how to trick their worried parents into thinking they're eating, etc which is what those websites do.

As an aside, I've talked to several people who said that the "good" pro-recovery websites aided their disordered eating habits. I even had a friend develop an ED in middle school when someone came in to talk to the young women about EDs. By telling them what not to do, this friend got ideas.
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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
I'm not going to deny that in many cases, you are right. But, take a look at this.


Great. Something that now I am scared I have! I actually have some of these symptons. I have to now get married so that I can permit myself to have a "bed partner" (like the article says). Then I will know for sure!

[eta: Lightning striking Silicon Valley twice...hell freezing over...and the jackpot in VEGAS suddenly becoming mine.]

[ 09. January 2007, 02:33: Message edited by: duchess ]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Corpus cani

Ship's Anachronism
# 1663

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
PaterMinor probably got called fat by someone, because pretty much everyone gets called fat at some point.

Pretty Much Everyone but BUT not everyone.

Some of us have never been ridiculed for being fat- but we have been ridiculed for being thin. It's life. Get used to it. You were mocked for being overwieght and that's awful. Plenty of us were mocked for being underweight and its just as awful. Trust me.

I'm getting a bit pissed off with hearing the fat folk constantly whinge about the bad time they have for being fat. Hey fat people - get thin and expect it's going to be better.

Cc

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Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.

Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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Yeah but you're sexy. Even though you are a celibate priest trying to kill off an Australian woman's husband. You bring sexy back. Even better than Justin.

Damn ciggerette hanging out of your mouth, priest vestments.

Father forgive me.

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

More relevant ... the NY Times has an article today on schools sending home notes telling parents what their kids' BMI is, and the kids in turn getting freaky about food.

This was fascinating. As an overweight woman who is diabetic, I worry about someone like the young woman mentioned who is size 18-20 and already insulin resistant. Yeah its good that she feel OK in her swimsuit, but she already has medical problems that are most likely to be contributed to by her weight, and diabetes which develops from insulin resistance ia a degenerative disease.

How on earth do we take the focus off being fat or thin and encourage people to feel good about developing a healthy life? For me it was a health scare (ironically caused by a condition unrelated to weight) that started me walking and eating more sensibly, but how do we get through to children, and especially to teenagers who are all forever young and bulet-proof, (at least in their own minds)?

Huia

[ 09. January 2007, 04:24: Message edited by: Huia ]

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
Some of us have never been ridiculed for being fat- but we have been ridiculed for being thin. It's life. Get used to it. You were mocked for being overwieght and that's awful. Plenty of us were mocked for being underweight and its just as awful. Trust me.

Yeah, my point (possibly expressed only in my own mind) was that people are mean and stupid. They tend to stumble around trying to find insults until they find one that gets you riled up, and then they repeat that one for effect. My brother started calling me fat before I was overweight, because he knew it would set me off as I had gotten the message that fat = bad, especially for a woman. People prey on insecurity, and as much as I hate that, that's just how it goes.

* This is the opinion of someone who once seriously considered gaining 50 pounds because she remembered the shit she put up with at a higher weight as so much less soul-destroying than the shit she was currently putting up with but then decided she was probably romanticizing nostalgic memories.*

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
* This is the opinion of someone who once seriously considered gaining 50 pounds because she remembered the shit she put up with at a higher weight as so much less soul-destroying than the shit she was currently putting up with but then decided she was probably romanticizing nostalgic memories.*

Probably you were, but that doesn't mean being fat didn't do anything for you. I remember the first time I put on noticeable excess weight, in my late 20s, how I stopped getting squished on the bus because I took up more room. And fat is insulation against all kinds of things besides the cold.

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I'm still conflicted about my reactions to assertions that some people make that they eat relatively little and get significant exercise yet don't lose fat. Intellectually, I can piece together the fact that there can be different absorption rates, and that our physiologies can cling to a certain shape despite our earnest efforts. But my (admittedly biased) observed samples of ingested-portion size to patron size at public eating establishments have an extremely high degree of correlation. So on one hand I'm extremely sympathetic with the quite-rational arguments people have made to explain the myriad of circumstances leading to their current shape, but on the other I still hear myself thinking "eating less would probably help regardless".

I always figure the first law of thermodynamics holds for everyone. One way or another, if you're fat you're getting more calories than you're burning. And I may be less sympathetic about the myriad explanations than you -- I have the zeal of the converted, and I know how many of my own "explanations" are bullshit rationalizations. And a lot of the "the chart says my BMI is way too high, but really, I'm not fat" stuff is also bullshit. For some people that's true, but for many, it's just distorted body image and denial.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Another I heard last week was that our government is showing its concern about eating disorders by banning websites that glorify eating disorders. If that spreads to TV, they will have to close VH1 down!

You know, this is stupid. 90% of people who appear on TV may be underweight, but as far as I know there are no programs that instruct girls how to be anorexic, and give them tips on how to trick their worried parents into thinking they're eating, etc which is what those websites do.

<snip>

What can we do?

Kids should get taught that most people on TV are on TV because they're thinner and prettier than others, not because they're representative.

And we really need to stop using food as a reward or punishment.

The "Celebrity Diet" programs on VH1 go pretty damn close: anything that celebrates how someone went from a dress size 12 to 6 (UK size) is downrightright dangerous. These shows advocate every diet fad in the book and quite a few outside it. I don't think I have seen bulimia advocated but it's a close run thing.

As for people being on TV because they are thinner and prettier than the run of the mill, that is horseshit. Most people get on TV because they are prettier or more handsome. Thinner doesn't come into it, in Britain anyway. Failing that they can go into politics, aka "Showbiz for ugly folks".

I have to agree 100% with your last point and also stop punishing kids for simply not clearing their plate.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by DaisyM:
Re: someone who is overweight, such a remark seems to me to be patronizing, cruel, or uninformed. such remarks do not help the person lose weight in any sort of healthy way; usually it backfires.

You appear to have confused Hell with All Saints. [Roll Eyes]

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I'm still conflicted about my reactions to assertions that some people make that they eat relatively little and get significant exercise yet don't lose fat. Intellectually, I can piece together the fact that there can be different absorption rates, and that our physiologies can cling to a certain shape despite our earnest efforts. But my (admittedly biased) observed samples of ingested-portion size to patron size at public eating establishments have an extremely high degree of correlation. So on one hand I'm extremely sympathetic with the quite-rational arguments people have made to explain the myriad of circumstances leading to their current shape, but on the other I still hear myself thinking "eating less would probably help regardless".

I always figure the first law of thermodynamics holds for everyone. One way or another, if you're fat you're getting more calories than you're burning.
It seems undeniably true that if you're gaining weight, then you are ingesting more calories than you are expending (excepting for the sake of argument a few rare medical conditions). But I suspect that while you are overeating for you that doesn't necessarily mean you are always overeating in a social sense, i.e. eating socially unacceptably large amounts of food. (Or, in the case of thin people, eating socially unacceptably small amounts of food.) There was an hospital specialist in obesity on the TV a few weeks ago who said that he fairly regularly encountered people who's resting metabolic rate was in the order of 900 calories a day. I don't know how common this is - presumably he will deal with extremes on a daily basis - but it does seem fairly commmon-sensical that people eating the same diet and doing the same amount of exercise will not necessarily wind up the same weight. People's calorific needs vary for all sorts of reasons, and we all know people who, for instance, eat appallingly and never gain weight (the bastards!).

It seems plausible, then, that for some people the extreme measures to which they would have to go to lose weight may not be acceptable. If, for instance, they would have to restrict their social life to an extent they find unacceptable or isolating, or spend all their spare time exercising to the detriment of other contructive activities, they may decide that the game isn't worth the candle. This seems to me like a rational choice in some circumstances, and not necessarily a case of being lazy or greedy.

In my own case, I'm tending towards thinking that the mere act of measuring and writing down alters your perception of what you are eating, and that I probably normally sneak in loads more calories without being aware of it. But I'm curious now, to see what happens, if anything, if I keep journalling without consciously trying to diet. (Don't worry, I won't report back).

I have to admit I was a bit uncomfortable with the size 20 girl in the article. It's not a condition I'm terribly familiar with, but if she's insulin resistant doesn't that mean that her diet is already causing her a concrete, measurable health problem? One which could be helped by changing her habits? In which case - though it's good that she's not picked on, and I'm not suggesting that picking on her would help in any way - it does seem that her unconditional acceptance of her current lifestyle is also a bit problematic.

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
Pretty Much Everyone but BUT not everyone.

Some of us have never been ridiculed for being fat- but we have been ridiculed for being thin. It's life. Get used to it. You were mocked for being overwieght and that's awful. Plenty of us were mocked for being underweight and its just as awful. Trust me.

The issue isn't so much that people are cruel, and will grab at whatever taunt they think will hurt most - of course they are and, as you say, that's life.

The issue for me is that when official agencies start to give sanction to people's prejudices, and implement policies that feed into people's need for a sense of superiority, offer up a scapegoat on a plate, then things turn a lot nastier very quickly. As a smoker, you should be well aware of that.

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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Originally posted by Laura:

quote:
What's to be done? I'm not saying sending notes home is good, but what is the solution?
I think the solution is for people to stop treating the world like a hall of mirrors and start seeing other people for what they are: other people, separate from themselves.

If I taunt someone else for being fat or thin, what I'm really saying is:

- I look at you and I see the part of myself that I'm afraid is lazy/ugly/greedy/undisciplined, and I think that by punishing you, I can annihilate my own faults.
- I look at you and I see the part of myself that I'm afraid is vain/shallow/superficial/selfish, and I think that by punishing you, I can annihilate my own faults.
- I look at you and I see somebody I wouldn't want to have sex with, so there's no reason for you to exist at all.
- I look at you and I see somebody I think somebody else would want to have sex with because you don't look like me, therefore it follows that you are making me undesirable and unlovable, so I have to make you undesirable and unlovable to protect myself.
- I look at you and I see somebody whom I or others think beautiful. Since you are beautiful, I must therefore be ugly, and who are you to make me ugly? If I never had to look at you I would be beautiful again.
- I look at you and I see somebody whom I or others think beautiful. I strive to resemble you so that I can be beautiful. Since I am not you, I can never resemble you, and I blame you for tormenting me in this way.
- I look at you and I see the part of myself that is industrious/enlightened/refined/disciplined, and I think that by criticizing what I perceive to be the opposite qualities embodied in you, I can assert my superiority.
- I look at you and I see the part of myself that is loving/humble/generous/self-sacrificing/free of vanity, and I think that by criticizing what I perceive to be the opposite qualities embodied in you, I can assert my superiority.
- I look at you and I see somebody who has no problem taking up space and claiming what she wants and needs. The part of me that knows it is holy to want and need nothing and no-one, wishes it could make the public declaration, "I eat," and thereby claim my right to live.
- I look at you and I see somebody who takes up as little space as possible and appears to have no problem denying her wants and needs. The part of me that knows it is holy to want and need nothing and no-one, wishes it could make the public declaration, "I never eat," and thereby claim my right to live.
- I look at you and I see somebody who can be hurt by some criticism or other, and hurting you makes me powerful, so calling you "fat" or "thin" is good enough for me.
- I look at you and I see someone who looks small and puny, which makes me look big and strong when I stand next to you.
- I look at you and I seem to see any one of ten thousand other things, but all I really see is myself.

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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- I look at your post and think "my God, what a tedious Sigmund Freud wannabe".
- I look at your post and, instead of losing the will to live, wish you would lose the will to live instead.
- I look at your post and get a strong desire to fall into a deep and lasting sleeeeddffbggbvnnbnnnnbnnnbnnngnnnhnnnhn nhnhhhhgg..........

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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Thanks, Marvin! Coming from you, that's a compliment. [Smile]

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Iole Nui:
There was an hospital specialist in obesity on the TV a few weeks ago who said that he fairly regularly encountered people who's resting metabolic rate was in the order of 900 calories a day. I don't know how common this is - presumably he will deal with extremes on a daily basis - but it does seem fairly commmon-sensical that people eating the same diet and doing the same amount of exercise will not necessarily wind up the same weight. People's calorific needs vary for all sorts of reasons, and we all know people who, for instance, eat appallingly and never gain weight (the bastards!).

I have no doubt this is true. But my experiences at Souplantation make me think there's a lot to RooK's saying that there are a heck of a lot of fat people who just shovel food in like there's no tomorrow. Last time I was at Souplantation (a buffet restaurant chain which serves all you can eat for $8.99 or so) I saw scores of fat people piling their plates high with all sorts of fattening goodies. (The Souplantation people are freakin' brilliant at making you feel like it's okay to pig out. The places are set up so first you go through the salad bar, which is almost all pretty healthy food, with a few high-calorie pasta salads thrown in as tastes of the goodness to come, and then you enter a large open dining room, which has the creamy soups, pizzas, blueberry muffins, etc etc off to one side. So you virtuously make yourself a salad first, and then you can rationalize the mac and cheese.)

quote:
It seems plausible, then, that for some people the extreme measures to which they would have to go to lose weight may not be acceptable. If, for instance, they would have to restrict their social life to an extent they find unacceptable or isolating, or spend all their spare time exercising to the detriment of other contructive activities, they may decide that the game isn't worth the candle. This seems to me like a rational choice in some circumstances, and not necessarily a case of being lazy or greedy.
And I think a lot of people who have lost weight have found that the diet and exercise they have to do to maintain their lower weight are simply not acceptable or perhaps not possible. I don't blame them. But at the same time when I watch someone consume 3000 calories in one setting, and that person isn't an athlete, I know they could cut down and still go out to eat with friends and family.

quote:
In my own case, I'm tending towards thinking that the mere act of measuring and writing down alters your perception of what you are eating, and that I probably normally sneak in loads more calories without being aware of it. But I'm curious now, to see what happens, if anything, if I keep journalling without consciously trying to diet.
I know it makes an enormous difference in my eating habits if I find myself writing "double latte, chocolate chip scone" for breakfast three days in a row.

Edit: The other thing about Souplantation ... it's awkward to go back through the salad bar for seconds, but easy to go back for more muffins. Another example of environment setting us up to eat poorly -- not because Souplantation Inc wants us to be fat, but because of the way they make their money, I'm sure.

[ 09. January 2007, 14:52: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
quote:
------------------------------
In my own case, I'm tending towards thinking that the mere act of measuring and writing down alters your perception of what you are eating, and that I probably normally sneak in loads more calories without being aware of it. But I'm curious now, to see what happens, if anything, if I keep journalling without consciously trying to diet.
------------------------------

I know it makes an enormous difference in my eating habits if I find myself writing "double latte, chocolate chip scone" for breakfast three days in a row.

I've been in the company of people who were trying to lose weight but were very forgetful about what they were eating. For example:

- Get to the train station, buy and consume large ham-and-cheese-croissant-sandwich-thing, almost enough to be a meal in itself
- Get to destination, buy and consume lunch and large calorific drink
- Tea 'n' biscuits post-event
- Go back to train station, buy latte and large muffin.

At this point, her mother made a remark along the lines of "I thought you were watching your weight," which was met with protests of, "But you're forgetting that I haven't eaten anything since breakfast!"

Let me be clear, we're talking about at least a six-hour timespan here, not 45 minutes. But she did still forget about some of the snacks she had eaten between meals... and even about some of the meals she had eaten between meals... Which probably wouldn't have happened if she had been writing it down as she went along.

That's why I don't write anything down if I can help it.

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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there is certainly nothing new under the sun.
Hopefully this thread will be archieved and we can move on from the fat threads and just link to this one. I am currently back to my wonderful eating plan and waiting for neck pain to totally subside before I start to work out a lot again. At least I can walk. But the machines at 24 Fitness really hellp you to burn off hyper nervous energy.

I have learned that some people like RooK will truly open their eyes and try to understand (I know you did so don't even try saying you didn't)....but most others are not interested in learning something new and need to hold on to hard-ass views on fat. And that means I have to develop a thicker skin and I think I have. But it has taken years (I am 39 now). And a lot of deprogramming.

I find now that I am more comfortable with myself, I hardly ever hear to my face insults about me being fat. It might be though I have a lot of more mature people around me, I don't know.

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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The drinks are what did it for me. I was drinking at least one beer a night, sometimes two.

After my divorce, I immediately dropped 40 pounds-- well, about 240, if you count my ex. [Big Grin] )Mostly due to appetite loss. But since then I seem to have found the world's most perfect maintenace diet. (Barring the holidays... and I seem to have dropped the 10 lbs I was bitching about. Took about a week-plus of drastically restricted eating.)

For me, It seems to all be dependant on rigorous exercise, and if anything fucks with that, I'm screwed.

(Interesting side note-- while my foot was healing, I was developing these intense dairy cravings-- like I'd crave slice after slice of cheese. I'm convinced my body needed the calcium, because things started improving when I dropped the diet for a while and gave into the dairy craving. And I think I made the right choice-- in fact, I'm on cloud nine about it.Total tangent, but just another thought.)

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Iole Nui:
It seems undeniably true that if you're gaining weight, then you are ingesting more calories than you are expending (excepting for the sake of argument a few rare medical conditions)

Rare? Find even one and you can probably win a Nobel Prize, and we can all go to Mars.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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Yes, Ken, but some of us need fewer calories than others. Which is a maddening but nobel prize winning fact. I did though manage to lose 40 lbs after eating less carbs and then taking explosive insulin resistant solving the problem drugs. My body became more efficent and I could permit myself to eat a bit more.

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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I strongly believe that one's body does often know what one needs to eat. Kelly, your example about craving dairy and it helping when you gave in and ate dairy is an excellent example. Similarly, when I was eating with vegetarians only, but wouldn't eat beans, I seriously started to crave protein. Suddenly found myself loving ground beef--problem fixed. I wonder if bodies universally know what they need mostly.

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged



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