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Originally posted by RooK:
Well, perhaps because there turns out to be a significant population of "chubby chasers" in Portland?

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Originally posted by mirrizin:
Personally, I think, if you're willing to make the time to cook your own food instead of wasting your hard earned money on prepackaged crap, you can eat pretty well for cheap, IMO.

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Originally posted by trebuchet:
If we're trying to craft a governmental policy to fix the obesity issue, then the solutions have to depend on more than shame and individual effort.

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I don't the price of chicken per pound, but four reasonable-sized (about the size of my palm) breasts is about $2.50 I think.

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Originally posted by Janine:
When the income is limited . . . You may not be able to afford [refrigerater, stove, pots, pans, spices, fresh veg, etc]

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Why, I think your comments are quite pertinent, comet. While people are blithely assuming it's cheaper to eat fresh, they are not considering the unique needs of those folk who live up in the Great White Where-the-hell-am-I?, who can't get said fresh veggies/ fruit.

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Originally posted by RooK:

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Originally posted by trebuchet:
If we're trying to craft a governmental policy to fix the obesity issue, then the solutions have to depend on more than shame and individual effort.

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If we're trying to craft a governmental policy to address the obesity issue (and I don't think we are), then the solutions are going to have to depend on recognizing all the salient aspects of the issue - including the levels of obesity in individuals. So unless all the individual fat bastards are completely OK with being unsafe near Inuit reservations, there's going to potentially be elements of shame.

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Originally posted by Flausa:
I'd suspect that your poverty-stricken urban poor aren't as obese as your middle classers

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Originally posted by Gort:
You simply can't pin a heavy partner up against the wall or perform acrobatics quite like you can with a lighter one. There, I've said it.

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Originally posted by trebuchet:
Why does, "We have to change the way we live, because it's killing us" have to translate into, "and that means you, you disgusting porker"?

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Originally posted by Gort:
You simply can't pin a heavy partner up against the wall or perform acrobatics quite like you can with a lighter one. There, I've said it.

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Originally posted by Gort:

You simply can't pin a heavy partner up against the wall or perform acrobatics quite like you can with a lighter one. There, I've said it.

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Originally posted by RooK:
...there's going to potentially be elements of shame.

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Originally posted by RooK:
That disgusting porkers have a great propensity for internally translating objective observations into shame is often their own damn doing.

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Originally posted by trebuchet:
You are correct to note that many people will see insult where there is only objective observation, but that wasn't what you were talking about before, or it didn't seem to be. Please do feel free to correct me in your usual sweet way if I read you wrong.

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Originally posted by RooK:
Because it seems to me that a large proportion of obesity is about individual habits and priorities, and if those aren't addressed in some way that there probably can be nothing accomplished.

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During the past 20 years there has been a dramatic increase in obesity in the United States. In 1985 only a few states were participating in the CDC's Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) and providing obesity data. In 1991, four states had obesity prevalence rates of 15–19 percent and no states had rates at or above 20 percent.

In 1995, obesity prevalence in each of the 50 states was less than 20 percent. In 2000, 28 states had obesity prevalence rates less than 20 percent.

In 2005, only 4 states had obesity prevalence rates less than 20 percent, while 17 states had prevalence rates equal to or greater than 25 percent, with 3 of those having prevalences equal to or greater than 30 percent (Louisiana, Mississippi, and West Virginia).

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Originally posted by RuthW:
What it comes down to is this: yes, people get fat one bite at a time. But all those individual choices are made in an environment which strongly conditions us to make poor choices. So sure, encourage people to make better choices, but change the environment so it isn't so goddamned hard to do.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
What it comes down to is this: yes, people get fat one bite at a time. But all those individual choices are made in an environment which strongly conditions us to make poor choices. So sure, encourage people to make better choices, but change the environment so it isn't so goddamned hard to do.

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I would just add that a useful part of that change, as people have already mentioned, would be stopping the planning madness that is making car use all but unavoidable and other transport choices all but impossible.

Comet's comment about maternity shopping reminded of something - those of you who think special measures are needed to remind fat people that they're fat, ought to try being pregnant round here. My post-natal lunch gang were reminiscing about that just the other day, it hit the young and pretty ones the hardest of course, the ones used to being the target of public admiration rather than derision. We all agreed it was a relief to finally get to the Gigantic Obvious Bump stage, so you could eat in public again without being sneered at or hearing uncomplimentary comments about your 'weight'.

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Originally posted by RooK:
My suspicion is that if you were to put two restaurants side by side, one of them reasonably-healthy consciencously-prepared healthy food, the other buttery piles of decadence, the clientele will have presorted themselves somewhat. ... And, judging by the perceived affront so far, I wonder how many people would actually want to have such concerns waved in front of their face, on a menu.

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Originally posted by rugasaw:
I once saw a program about a town in Japan. The residents of the town were very healthy ate non-fatty foods. Then the fatty foods of the west came to town. Bam! Instant poor health...

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I read somewhere about a trend for more height too. So, starting back before there was much of a Western diet available -- maybe as far back as WWII -- and rolling forward, it started to become obvious when people's knees would constantly thwack and bang into the next person's while they rode face-to-face bus and train seats.

So either it was Western-type diets growing the younger generations taller or Western-style perverts suddenly taking over the public transport? Hee.

And re: "the poor" around here , whether "working poor" or people who live on public incomes in public housing etc. -- all I can go by is folks I personally run into during my days -- ain't too many skinny. Once you lose the high energy of youngsters' growth spurts, and discounting chronically ill people and heavy smokers (same thing! ), they are all fatter than average.

Or maybe they're all virtuously skinny as poor folks should be and it's the high fat content of my obese eyes making them look fat...

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Originally posted by RooK:
You know, I personally don't care about whether any particular person is fat - it doesn't fundamentally change them as a person. But as soon as you wind up with a retribution of "MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS", kindly do the rest of us the favour of not using any public health services for any ailments primarily contributed by your obesity. Ever.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Actually, the recent health revelation in the news that's yanking my chain is that 'binge' drinking can now be officially categorized as half a bottle of wine in one evening.

Now I know the world has gone mad.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
As for moralizing how awful it is to spend money on people who get themselves fat and then insist on being treated for fat-related illnesses. Well,
I don't complain when workaholics, or gym-aholics, spend my tax contribs subsidizing the injuries they inflict on themselves carrying out their unhealthy lifestyles. I don't whinge when health-freaks insist on jogging, cycling, walking backwards over razor-blades on their arse-cheeks in order to stay fit, and get themselves hospitalized because of strains, fractures and heart attacks, spending my NI subs. If a person is ill, however, they're ill, I hope the system I help to pay for helps them out.

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But alongside that and yet a discrete issue, then, there are the generations of youngsters who are growing up in a different environment than previous generations. Up to the time I left secondary school I had five periods of games and physical education every week; walked everywhere, rode bicycles and spent as long as possible out of doors, or in group activities. Also at school dinners we ate the one menu that was offered, nothing at all resembling the fast-food outlets most schools seem to feature (we were lucky to have chips once a month!).

We didn't need our school to chuck out its chocolate vending machines or tuck shops and replace them with healthy food snacks either, because most of us got fruit at home or in our pack lunches. And buying sweets was an occasional treat, if pocket-money would allow

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From a UK perspective, more is being done about healthy eating in schools, and linking what you eat to health and other issues. For example the Healthy Schools programme. As part of regular lessons in primary school issues about food are discussed and taught. Food and healthy eating as a topic are included in the national curriculum as well as initiatives like Every Child Matters.

My two boys (in primary school) are given (free) fruit every day at snack time, and also milk. Annoyingly this stops after year 2 (when they are 6 or 7), as if 8 year olds suddenly don't need fruit. This is not to say that the government should be responsible for ensuring that kids have a healthy diet (they neither could nor should) - but it is part of the overall environment that they are living in, and a) guarantees that they are used to having healthy, fresh food and b) have at least some knowledge of the issues and hopefully will pass this on to parents or carers - using pester power positively!

All I'm saying is that the situation in the UK is not doom and gloom, neither however is it wildly optimistic. There needs to be a lot more genuine joined up thinking in government ranging from travel issues (how to encourage walking/cycling instead of driving), sports (not selling off school playing fields left right and centre, closing swimming pools etc), regulating advertising (especially to children) better, regulating what additives/constituents are allowed in food, what and how to tax things and so on and so forth - rather than a whole bunch of little initiatives which are underfunded and often contradicted by other bits of government policy.

Speaking for myself, my kids get sweets as a treat very occasionally, and there is no harm whatsoever in that (I have treats occasionally myself, everyone needs them) - and they certainly get their '5 a day' fruit and veg (except, again, occasionally due to special circumstances - we make sure this isn't viewed as a treat though). We also go for walks and play games with them regularly, as well as walking/scooting to school. So far they are both very healthy, and actually like fruit and veg and often choose them for a snack. (In fact Jonahlet no 2 squeals in delight at the thought of sprouts with his meal, a most rare child).

However, obviously there are many parents who are less aware or less able to act on their knowledge, so there does need to be a climate which helps people rather than hinders them. Going back to the original post, I don't think that shops handing out random advice is an effective way of doing this - but from the govt's point of view it is relatively cheap, high profile and they can simultaneously show that they are doing 'something' to those who think 'something should be done' whilst giving the Daily Mail ammunition for its 'political correctness gone mad' column.

Jonah
(Now I need some beer and chips!)

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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

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Originally posted by trebuchet:
Certainly if you go into a White Castle and then go into a Subway, you're going to see a different clientele. Part of this is money (Subway, while still cheap, is more expensive) and part of it is cultural and part of it is individual choice, and getting people to change their individual choices is going to be hard, of course.

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Originally posted by RooK:
I put it to you that we are making our environment such that it is harder to resist. And that this is a by-product of our individual choices.

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Originally posted by mirrizin:
Seriously. When Gwai and I eat out, we can usually get two meals out of one portion served at most restaurants.

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Originally posted by comet:
the portion size thing in restaurants is huge. (pardon the pun).

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