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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Bad parenting 101 (formerly Control your spoiled brat, please!)
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Melon, you do realize that Josephine is agreeing with you?
Melon would have to exercise a few more brain cells to cotton on to that. Not outside the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't put money on it.
Very sorry Josephine. I typed that 2 minutes after walking in from accident and emergency, after my daughter broke her arm in two places. I'm sure it's either my fault or my wife's, I just haven't had time to work out which yet.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
It seems true, clear, and blindingly obvious to most people that a child's behavior correlates precisely and directly with the quality of the child's parents. ... I don't know why, since it is manifestly false.
My mother used to say, "I don't take any credit, and I won't take any blame." However, she did take responsibility, which, to me, is what all this is about. I'm still really having trouble understanding why it was apparently physically impossible to simply pick her up, put her in the seat and do the seat belt up. She must be one of those Toddler Mutant Ninja Turtles or something. OliviaG
Too true, there comes a time in every parent-child relationship when only fear will do. ![[Cool]](cool.gif) To get their attention that is.
One of the keys to effective parenting is knowing when it matters. Kid screaming in your car, that's a pain but it doesn't matter. Kid screaming on a bus, an inconvenience (but crying kids have been put off buses in this town because they "distract the drivers" ). Kid screaming on a plane and parents unable/unwilling/ whatever to strap the child in is another matter, especilly because the law says they must.
OK, the airline have undertaken to review their methods but is there a chance that Elly's family will learn jack shit from this? I thought not, why should they?
[eta: Melon, I hope your daughter and your family will be OK. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ]
[ 31. January 2007, 18:28: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pants
Emergency underwear
# 999
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Melon, you do realize that Josephine is agreeing with you?
Melon would have to exercise a few more brain cells to cotton on to that. Not outside the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't put money on it.
Very sorry Josephine. I typed that 2 minutes after walking in from accident and emergency, after my daughter broke her arm in two places. I'm sure it's either my fault or my wife's, I just haven't had time to work out which yet.
What the fuck you doing here then? Shouldn't you actually be spending time with her rather than wasting time playing on your computer. Probably was your fault, not your wifes, because you were on the computer rather than 'watching' her.
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♣ Many big thank yous to those who sponsored us. ♣
I use £6m of military hardware to find hidden Tupperware in the woods.
Posts: 15217 | From: A grown up house | Registered: May 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
I'm sure it's either my fault or my wife's, I just haven't had time to work out which yet.
Sorry to hear, Melon. When my son broke his elbow it was nobody's fault. Well, it was his fault for running on the sloppy floors at Food Emporium and my fault for not spotting the spilt milk. Answering what I recognized as the "making sure you're not a child abuser" questions at NY Presbyterian hospital was the punishment.
Though I was later told that what's really my fault,was not suing the Food Emporium to start his college fund. Oh, well.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
We don't know if it was late because everyone had been strapped in already for 15 minutes waiting for one last child to be seated, or if it was 15 minutes late for other reasons already.
I don't see how that matters. Even if the plane had been delayed for 15 minutes due to the mechanics having to duct-tape the wings in place, the parents still had those 15 minutes (plus the previous 30, at least) to deal with the child.
Because the chain of events leading to the final event, matters.
There's a difference between a plane running on normal time, or even time to spare, where everybody gets boarded in stately order, and each wave has had time to get seated and stowed before the next rush of people comes down the aisle, and all the final problems of figuring out where to stash all the carry-ons has been taken care of, and one family is noticeably unable to get with the program even after several reminders by the cabin crew and offers of whatever appropriate assitance ("appropriate assistance" = "whatever is going to most likely going to get everyone buckled in safely in the least amount of time without precipitating a battle of walkie-talkie wills"),
vs.
a plane that arrives late, everyone is rushed on pell-mell, where even if the families with children get on first there's a continual hurried chaos of people scrambling to get on, such that anyone who has more difficulty getting them seated the hell down and buckled in has that difficulty compounded.
Not that this was necessarily at one extreme or the other, but where on the spectrum was it?
How do you know they had at least 45 minutes to deal with the child?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
comet: If I wanted to have babies, I'd want you to raise them. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
comet: If I wanted to have babies, I'd want you to raise them. OliviaG
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) thank you.
I determined awhile ago that the world would be a better place if it were all run my way. unfortunately, the powers that be aren't listening to me. what's with that? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, when my arm got broken the first time it was DEFINITELY my father's fault, as he was the one who slammed the car door on it. It's been more than 25 years and I still get fabulous mileage out of it.
Why am I assuming they had nearly 45 minutes? They weren't making a connection, so there was no frantic dash from one end of Terminal A to the ass end of Terminal B. Every US airline, without fail, allows families to "pre-board" in order to get settled. Now, if they weren't ready to board when the airline called for families that is SO DEFINITELY their fault, because there was nothing holding them up besides their own stupidity.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
What the fuck you doing here then? Shouldn't you actually be spending time with her rather than wasting time playing on your computer. Probably was your fault, not your wifes, because you were on the computer rather than 'watching' her.
You're right, I should have been blogging.
Your comment illustrates all that is wrong with this structured parenting claptrap. I was walking towards casualty within 2 minutes of my daughter walking in the door, because broken limbs count as a priority in our household. I was willing to spend as much time there as necessary, because that's what parents do.
But once I got back home, there was no crisis, so why manufacture one? We walked to casualty because that's what people do when there's no crisis, and "no crisis" is the message I wanted to send. There were no tears, a lot of questions and a faltering explanation of the discovery of x-rays that made me realise that I need to refresh my memory on that score.
I'm sure I should be making a huge fuss in the hearing of my daughter about whether the bones will set right and phoning distant relatives who did a year of medical school to check that my child is receiving the very best treatment and and and...
And this would stress out my daughter, which would give me an opportunity to show my magistral parenting skills in consoling her, and then I'd have to phone up everyone I know to tell them how well I coped, and maybe start a couple of prayer chains, and then I could go to bed feeling very proud of myself.
But I'm afraid it's not our way. We deal with stuff and move on. And that's the kind of blasé attitude that makes you look like a really bad parent in the eyes of the structured felt tip brigade. Because structured parenting is all about demonstrating how hard you are working to do what your average cocker spaniel does naturally and without wax crayons. Your spectacular display of commitment to the task means that no-one had better dare criticise you, and that you get to criticise everyone who isn't trying as hard as you. It never occurs to structured parenthood fanatics that maybe they have to try so hard because they have no natural aptitude for relating to children.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Pants
Emergency underwear
# 999
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Posted
Slacker. You should now be setting up a prayer chain that her arm will heal without the need for plaster. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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♣ Many big thank yous to those who sponsored us. ♣
I use £6m of military hardware to find hidden Tupperware in the woods.
Posts: 15217 | From: A grown up house | Registered: May 2003
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
quote:
Comet wrote:
and one more thing, dammit, what kind of freak allows the airline to seat their child away from themselves? what the fuck is the matter with these people?
ahem.
thank you.
In a TV interview, the parents made it sound as it they were all sitting together and that the child was on the floor in front of their feet. Of course, I can't be sure what the parents were saying because the kid was squirmy, screaming, and slapping her mother's head during the entire interview -- which makes me wonder about what kind of parents push a child into the 15-minutes-of-fame spotlight like that.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
Melon, seriously, what are you going on about?
we're not talking about regimented lines of uniformed Von Trapp children here. We're talking about teaching acceptable social behavior as it fits a given situation.
sounds like you handled your child's crisis as I would have. I don't see how that is somehow in opposition to controlling a 3-year-old's outbursts.
what's the issue?
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
We deal with stuff and move on.
Then your daughter's accident doesn't really explain your failure to figure out that Josephine was agreeing with you.
I'm sure you're a fine parent, Melon -- but the ones this thread is about aren't, and you look stupid defending them.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm sure you're a fine parent, Melon -- but the ones this thread is about aren't, and you look stupid defending them.
We don't know that, and you look stupid attacking them.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Hermes66
Shipmate
# 12156
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
quote:
Comet wrote:
and one more thing, dammit, what kind of freak allows the airline to seat their child away from themselves? what the fuck is the matter with these people?
ahem.
thank you.
In a TV interview, the parents made it sound as it they were all sitting together and that the child was on the floor in front of their feet. Of course, I can't be sure what the parents were saying because the kid was squirmy, screaming, and slapping her mother's head during the entire interview -- which makes me wonder about what kind of parents push a child into the 15-minutes-of-fame spotlight like that.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Actually on a real ship but not all at sea
Posts: 523 | From: Amsterdam | Registered: Dec 2006
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Hermes66
Shipmate
# 12156
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Posted
It's threads like this which remind me why I chose not to procreate.
Thank you all! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Actually on a real ship but not all at sea
Posts: 523 | From: Amsterdam | Registered: Dec 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm sure you're a fine parent, Melon -- but the ones this thread is about aren't, and you look stupid defending them.
We don't know that, and you look stupid attacking them.
We do know that, and if you think I look stupid, then I know I'm on the right track, given how good your judgement is.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Please explain how you know the parents are bad parents. Use specific examples, and medical history of the girl to show that her temper tantruming in this instance and/or their inability to control it was due to their inability as parents.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
In my experience, the last people to sit down are always middle aged women without children who do not understand the concept of "stow your baggage safely", and the main role of cabin crew is to stop those women from blocking access to the entire plane for 15 minutes by standing in the aisle checking every single item in their handbags, which, inevitably, are bigger than a family suitcase.
It's good to be reminded from time to time who the middle-aged women haters are.
In my experience of travelling it's occasionally families with very young children and older people - quite naturally, I'd say - who take their time to settle down, and who need a little extra assistance here and there. I try not to hate them because in the case of the former travelling with youngsters can be stressful, and in the case of the latter I shall very soon be one of their number.
Anselmina: that awful thing ie, a middle-aged woman without children, but who knows how to pack for travel and is more than capable of looking after herself, and who reckons she's not the only one amongst this category who have learnt how to travel efficiently without becoming a burden on the worthier younger public.
Mm. Well said.
Great rant too, comet.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
They obviously failed the Old School method: a rolled up sock and stout length of duct tape.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Please explain how you know
Nope, not gonna explain anything to you. It's a waste of energy. And the same goes for you as for Melon -- the onus shifted to you when you went off the rails early in this thread:
quote:
Let's all blame the parents, because if a child has tantrums that the parents can't control, it's clearly their faults. If only they had begun smacking the child harder and earlier, it would never have tantrums again....
You people are either sadists or clueless about children, especially difficult-to-parent ones.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
and one more thing, dammit, what kind of freak allows the airline to seat their child away from themselves?
For kids under five, absolutely none. Not even AirTran. Because such a seating plan would also be against FAA regulations. The kid was crawling around on the floor at their parents feet (and under the seats), not in the row in front of them.
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Perhaps the parents could have been better prepared with stuff (e.g. a five point car seat). Maybe it was their first time flying with the kid. We learned a heck of a lot after our first plane trip with a child (and again on our first trip with two).
It is a terrible overreaction to say the child has been poorly brought up or these are terrible parents generally based on what there is to read here.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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R.D. Olivaw
Shipmate
# 9990
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Posted
I don't think that you have to be nearly a "perfect parent" to be able to get a three year old to sit in a seat when it's required. Tantrums are a part of childhood and there isn't a parent who hasn't experienced the awful feeling of seeing their child completely unhinged. I have walked away from full grocery carts to take my children to the car, sat patiently by the side of the road until they would leave their seat belt on, carried them to their room and put them on their beds and let them writhe and scream until they exhausted themselves. I made sure that a tantrum NEVER got them what they wanted. But the time spent waiting was mine and mine alone....not 160 people trying to live their lives. A three year old child can understand that everyone gets angry, scared, sad....you name it and it's normal and okay to feel these feelings...what is NOT okay is expressing or acting on those feelings in a way that is hurtful, violent, or disruptive. This is not an 18 month old that is all impulse but a three year old who is probably in playgroup, or more likely pre-school and must learn to navigate the world in a way that is acceptable. She was described as hitting her parents which I find alarming. No one is allowed to hit in my house and it is made clear that it is never acceptable behavior. Pre-verbal children hit and bite out of frustration but once children learn to speak and are taught to communicate with words, there should be no hitting. If she always had to stay in her car seat her parents could say..."this is just like the car and you must stay in the seat...I know your angry but... look...everyone is in their seat, buckled up...mommy and daddy, too...and it's the rule. period...cry all you want but you must sit down, now." If you can't get that basic level of cooperation then it's probably dangerous to have her on the plane. What if she popped her belt off during take off or landing? What if she wouldn't listen in an emergency? Sorry to go one, but three is one of my favorite ages, (my son just turned four) and I think that three year olds are much more capable than some on this thread have given them credit for. This isn't about being "mean" or "perfect" but about knowing when you can spend thirty minutes on a hissy fit and when you cannot...and separating what is uncomfortable (crying, whining) and what is not negotiable (seat belt).
As for the parents, their choice to go public and thrust this poor kid into the spotlight so that they could kvetch says more about them then the plane incident.
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We are here to awaken from the illusion of our separateness -Thich Nhat Hanh
Posts: 496 | From: I'm a leaf on the wind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Preboarding for families went out sometime in the last 5+ years or so.
General procedure these days is to board First Class about 30 minutes prior to the flight (no problem here but time). This is usually followed by a general call to board 'all elite frequent fliers, all families with kids, and all those needing a little extra time'. There are usually at least 10-20 such frequent fliers on coach who beat a family into line every time. Trying to haul all your stuff (like a car seat, food, and toys to keep the kids quiet for the whole flight) past them (because families are usually put in the back) means you are lucky to be in your seat with everything packed by 10 minutes before pushing back.
According to Air Tran's website, they only give preferential boarding to families with infants (<2 yrs old) and those with disabilities.
See here and here.
Since boarding is preferential by seat (in a zone system) and discount fares only get seats assigned at check in on AirTran, this family was probably among the last to board the plane.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
the onus shifted to you when you went off the rails early in this thread:
So the onus is on me to prove you have no proof they're bad parents? That makes no sense at all.
Fact is, you don't know the history here, so you don't know if they're bad parents or not.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
Could someone explain to me what 'structured parenting' is? I have tried Googling, and have found places where it is mentioned, but the ones I have looked at don't actually say what it is.
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
the onus shifted to you when you went off the rails early in this thread:
So the onus is on me to prove you have no proof they're bad parents? That makes no sense at all.
Then it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that that's not what I meant. The onus is on you to back up your position.
quote:
Fact is, you don't know the history here, so you don't know if they're bad parents or not.
Parents who allow their 3-year-old to hit them are bad parents (see Presleyterian's post). If this kid had relevant problems, I'm sure these attention-seekers would have told the media all about it.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Then it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that that's not what I meant.
On the contrary. If you were 100% rational all the time, this might be the case. Unfortunately that's not the way the wind blows.
My position is that we don't know the history. Books upon books have been written about "explosive children" that go off the rails for no reason. If your kid is like that, and you don't know why or what it means, you're not likely to go bragging about it to the media.
Oh and thanks for the new debating principle. If anyone displays strong emotions, they automatically lose and I don't have to back up my position, however absurd or unfounded. I'll call it argumentum ad ruthium.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Please explain how you know
Nope, not gonna explain anything to you. It's a waste of energy. And the same goes for you as for Melon -- the onus shifted to you when you went off the rails early in this thread:
quote:
Let's all blame the parents, because if a child has tantrums that the parents can't control, it's clearly their faults. If only they had begun smacking the child harder and earlier, it would never have tantrums again....
You people are either sadists or clueless about children, especially difficult-to-parent ones.
Now I'm really confused. My irony meter went right up to red when I read MT's post. Was it intended to be taken literally?
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
It is a terrible overreaction to say the child has been poorly brought up or these are terrible parents generally based on what there is to read here.
If I came across as calling these parents terrible parents, I apologize. I don't think they were terrible parents. I think they were ill-prepared and too lenient. I say this from the 20/20 hindsight of having gotten three of the little monsters past the tantrum stage. Have I ever been an ill-prepared or too-lenient parent? oh hell, yeah. The trick is to take note when you screw up, apologize where appropriate, never let that happen again, and not blame the world for your own family issues. quote:
R. D. Olivaw said:
I have walked away from full grocery carts to take my children to the car, sat patiently by the side of the road until they would leave their seat belt on, carried them to their room and put them on their beds and let them writhe and scream until they exhausted themselves. I made sure that a tantrum NEVER got them what they wanted. But the time spent waiting was mine and mine alone....not 160 people trying to live their lives.
A-freaking-MEN.
this is key.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Now I'm really confused. My irony meter went right up to red when I read MT's post. Was it intended to be taken literally?
I think it was the last bit, which was serious, that she was taking offense at. Surely she couldn't be so stupid as to think the first bit was my own position, even given things she's said on this thread.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Calling people who disagree with him sadists was hyperbole, not irony.
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
If anyone displays strong emotions, they automatically lose ...
Not what I said. But as I doubt you'll learn to read for comprehension any time soon, I won't be back here to counter your flailing.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I know I'll be sorry to get involved in this but how about the eyewitness from BroJames' link and the witness of the girl throwing a fit during the interview Presleytarian watched?
I'd say that's more evidence this girl has a problem and her parents don't know how to cope with it. I'm not sure how it proves they're bad parents, however. Not all children are textbook angels, and some parents just don't know what resources exist for parents of such children, or even that it is worth it to seek professional help. Some don't have the time or energy to do the kind of research it takes to determine what is really going on, what kind of expert you need to take the child to, etc.
I think until we have firm evidence that this child's behavior is strictly due to bad parenting, we need to give the parents a break and the benefit of the doubt.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I won't be back here to counter your flailing.
Promises, promises.
I just love the argument, "you disagree with me, hence you can't read for comprehension." So insightful. So iron-clad. What can counter it?
ETA: Ah, the light dawns! "Going off the rail" means "using hyperbole." How foolish of me!
[ 31. January 2007, 21:53: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
Last time I went on a plane those immediate to the exit doors are checked to be able bodied and/or swapped so of a quick exit.
Not so on the planes I've been on in the last couple years. There was a court challenge, and now those by exit doors self-certify that they are able to carry out the requirements of sitting by an exit door. That is, "please ask us to find you another seat if you would not be able to carry out these tasks in case of an emergency {tasks listed}."
Er - and the difference between being able to carry out tasks in case of emergency - ie quickly openeing door and getting ramp down/helping people/whatever it is and what i said is...?!?!?! I think youve just proved my point? Anyway its irrelevant.
Melon - I think youre missing the argument...
People arent saying the parents were necessarially the worst parents in the world, but just that ultimately the kid is the parents **responsibility**. All kids have tantrums etc etc, but ultimately you have to have kids in seats to fly. If every plane waited for hours while everyone was seated then how on earth would they organise an airport? Usually parents and kids get on first so they have plenty of time to settle.
I really think this one is a no-brainer.
[Much like your code then.]
[ 02. February 2007, 11:57: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
- her parents don't know how to cope with it...
- some parents just don't know what resources exist for parents of such children, or even that it is worth it to seek professional help...
- Some don't have the time or energy to do the kind of research it takes to determine what is really going on, what kind of expert you need to take the child to, etc....
OK, so maybe "bad" is the wrong word. What other words do these points suggest? OliviaG
ETA: Cod. I mean code!
[ 31. January 2007, 21:55: Message edited by: OliviaG ]
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
OK, so maybe "bad" is the wrong word. What other words do these points suggest? OliviaG
Overwhelmed? Exhausted? Unable to cope? At wit's end?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
MT, I can't speak for anyone else here, but from my perspective whether this child has some underlying issue is irrelevent. I know lots of kids with special needs, including one of my own. it is up to the parent to make accomidations for whatever those needs are.
my daughter had temper tantrum "issues" just like this kid. It was my job as a parent to work with that. I chose to avoid certain situations, remove her from others, and battle my way through yet others. just because she had the temperment of a skittish racehorse at the age of three doesn't excuse me from my job as her mother to teach her the approriate behavior for a given situation.
I would say this applies to all parents and all kids, no matter what their special needs might be. within reason - and I think the majority of society will cut families slack when they're dealing with wheelchairs, or deaf kids, or boinky ADDers. it's when the parents allow it to become everyone else's problem that I take issue with.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
my daughter had temper tantrum "issues" just like this kid. It was my job as a parent to work with that. I chose to avoid certain situations, remove her from others, and battle my way through yet others. just because she had the temperment of a skittish racehorse at the age of three doesn't excuse me from my job as her mother to teach her the approriate behavior for a given situation.
If you were able to do so, (1) well done, and (2) clearly your child isn't as bad off as some.
I'm not saying that there is no way on earth these are bad parents. I'm saying we don't KNOW that, and should be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
And knee-jerk "blame the parent-ism" helps no-one, particularly people with the REALLY difficult children.
[ 31. January 2007, 22:01: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
for the record, I was responding to this:
quote:
I think until we have firm evidence that this child's behavior is strictly due to bad parenting, we need to give the parents a break and the benefit of the doubt.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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mertide
Shipmate
# 4500
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Posted
If you knew you had an "explosive child", whether or not you knew all the implications and possible treatments, why on earth would you put the child through the stress of an airline flight? Since the child behaved according to witnesses the same way before boarding as well as during the television interview, it's not likely that this was the first episode of uncontrolled behavior. Wouldn't it enter the parent's minds that if the child is subject to uncontrolled explosions, that just possibly an unfamiliar environment, emotional stress from meeting and then leaving grandparents, and being made to sit still for hours might trigger it, and that just perhaps it might be better to stay home and perhaps fly the grandparents up to visit instead?
Posts: 382 | From: Brisbane | Registered: May 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
If you were able to do so, (1) well done, and (2) clearly your child isn't as bad off as some.
1) you win some battles and you lose some and 2) shut the fuck up, you don't know what you're talking about. there is no such thing as an unguidable, unteachable child.
quote:
I'm not saying that there is no way on earth these are bad parents. I'm saying we don't KNOW that, and should be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I never said they were bad parents.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
If I came across as calling these parents terrible parents, I apologize. I don't think they were terrible parents. I think they were ill-prepared and too lenient.
Sorry - the horizontal line in the post was to distinguish comments on the quotation from you from the rest of the post.
I don't know about too lenient - we don't really have a time frame. If they had a clear idea (which it seems) that the kid was freaking out because she had had ear surgery and the last flight hurt, I think I'd have a hard time blaming them for not just telling a toddler to just suck it up and force them back into the seat without trying other things first.
Poorly prepared, yes. No car seat, squirmy toddler, cramped conditions requiring need to be still adds up to bad move. But bad parenting? A poorly brought-up child? Good lord, there'd be no good parents on earth if you were not entitled to learn from experience!
How many times has this family flown before? We don't know.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mertide:
If you knew you had an "explosive child", whether or not you knew all the implications and possible treatments, why on earth would you put the child through the stress of an airline flight? Since the child behaved according to witnesses the same way before boarding as well as during the television interview, it's not likely that this was the first episode of uncontrolled behavior. Wouldn't it enter the parent's minds that if the child is subject to uncontrolled explosions, that just possibly an unfamiliar environment, emotional stress from meeting and then leaving grandparents, and being made to sit still for hours might trigger it, and that just perhaps it might be better to stay home and perhaps fly the grandparents up to visit instead?
Yes. I believe I said as much in an earlier post, although not so eloquently.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
Melon - I think youre missing the argument...
People arent saying the parents were necessarially the worst parents in the world, but just that ultimately the kid is the parents **responsibility**.
Some people were. The original thread title in fact was about controlling a spoiled brat. Others certainly came across as saying these were terrible parents.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
shut the fuck up, you don't know what you're talking about. there is no such thing as an unguidable, unteachable child.
I didn't say unguidable and unteachable. But there are some children that no amount of "guiding and teaching" is going to prevent their having explosions. If you don't know that, then I clearly know more about this than you do.
quote:
I never said they were bad parents.
You're not the only person who has posted on this thread, are you? May I direct you to the thread title?
[ 31. January 2007, 22:09: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
my daughter had temper tantrum "issues" just like this kid. It was my job as a parent to work with that. I chose to avoid certain situations, remove her from others, and battle my way through yet others. just because she had the temperment of a skittish racehorse at the age of three doesn't excuse me from my job as her mother to teach her the approriate behavior for a given situation.
I assume that was probably a process that took a few trials to sink in for a given situation. So is the family to avoid flying to keep out of this situation or are they to try their best, realizing the first few times, it is going to be difficult?
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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