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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is the Pope Danish?
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David Gould
Shipmate
# 11701
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Posted
From today's Telegraph
'It emerged yesterday that Scotland Yard has launched an inquiry into complaints about offensive protests by Muslim extremists outside Westminster Cathedral on Sunday. A well-known extremist, who was accompanied by scores of demonstrators from a group called Muslims of the UK, was reported to have called for the Pope to be "executed".'
When is the Government going to do something about these people.
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'If the CofE failed it would be found in my parish' Keble
Posts: 145 | From: Gloucester | Registered: Jul 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
The result: Within a few years the Turks would take Constantinople, rename it Istanbul, and the Roman-Byzantine Empire would disappear forever from the earth.
Possible quibble: It appears from Wikipedia that "Constantinople" was the official name of the city until 1930. One critic on Amazon impugned the scholarship of Anne Rice in her having 18th-century Venetians call it Istanbul in her novel Cry to Heaven. However, the etymology of the word is contentious: is it a translation of "Constantinople" or does it have a different origin?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Casting my mind back to the Danish Cartoons affair, I remember Ken blaming the disturbances on an internal power struggle within Muslim elements. "Willy waving" between leaders, as I recall.
I would be interested to know if he thinks the same thing is happening again.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
The result: Within a few years the Turks would take Constantinople, rename it Istanbul, and the Roman-Byzantine Empire would disappear forever from the earth.
Possible quibble: It appears from Wikipedia that "Constantinople" was the official name of the city until 1930. One critic on Amazon impugned the scholarship of Anne Rice in her having 18th-century Venetians call it Istanbul in her novel Cry to Heaven. However, the etymology of the word is contentious: is it a translation of "Constantinople" or does it have a different origin?
'Eis ten Polin' (Down Town) was the colloquial Byzantine name for their city. The Ottomans, who in just about every way stepped into the Byzantines' shoes, just carried on calling it that. They did not rename the city.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Gould:
From today's Telegraph
'It emerged yesterday that Scotland Yard has launched an inquiry into complaints about offensive protests by Muslim extremists outside Westminster Cathedral on Sunday. A well-known extremist, who was accompanied by scores of demonstrators from a group called Muslims of the UK, was reported to have called for the Pope to be "executed".'
When is the Government going to do something about these people.
Presumably after the results of the inquiry, and according to the law of the land. What do you suggest as alternative?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
To repeat what I posted - from Penguin Classic version of the Qur'an: p. 343 where Muslims are bidden to ‘fight against those who fight you’ – i.e. self-defence. Then on p. 346 self-defence is the only reason given for fighting – this time the context is unbelievers fighting Muslims with the intention of trying to make them give up Islam.
The Repentance sura is a continuation of the same context.
The trouble with arguing with you, Leo, on this subject is that you seem to be insisting that there is only one Islamic teaching on violence - or at least only one that can claim to be correct. Certainly it is true that many Muslim scholars claim that jihad is essentially defensive. Many have argued both in the past and present, that Jihad is both defensive and offensive. In fact some very influential Islamist thinkers - I have in mind Mawdudi and Qutb - have an exceedingly belligerent view.
I hope the self-defensive and spiritual view of jihad eventually wins the day. But this is by no means a foregone conclusion because it requires either, a retreat from literalism and a rejection of violent episodes in Islam's past (much as Christians have widely done); or alternatively an extraordinarily selective reading of the Koran and a fantastically revisionist view of history.
Scholars are now divided because the break up of the Ottoman Empire plus corrupt governments porppoed up by the USA has meant there is no one voice of leadership. Those governments magnify the voices of the scholars who are often belligerent.
However, it is possible to appeal to what protestant Christians call 'the plain meaning of the text.'
It is also possible to talk of 'mainstream Islam' as it is possible to talk of 'Orthodox Christianity'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Scholars are now divided because the break up of the Ottoman Empire plus corrupt governments porppoed up by the USA has meant there is no one voice of leadership.
Nonsense. Muslim scholars have been divided since the day the Prophet died and his father-in-law and son-in-law squabbled over the corpse.
OK, the Caliphate if not actually the corpse, and it was apparently 9 months later. But that was the argument that led to the murders of Ali and Hussayn and Hassan and the rise of the Shia and started arguments that have led to the murders of hundreds of people in the last few weeks.
But there are just as many flavours and sects of Islam as there are of Christianity, and they are just as diverse, and they disagree all the time, though some of them are politer about it than others.
Its just absurd to blame it on the Ottomans or the Americans.
[ 19. September 2006, 17:15: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, it is possible to appeal to what protestant Christians call 'the plain meaning of the text.'
It is also possible to talk of 'mainstream Islam' as it is possible to talk of 'Orthodox Christianity'.
The plain meaning of the text is as it has been in fourteen centuries of teaching and practice since Mohammed conceived it over time, as the Cairo statement confirms.
quote:
Jihad and Human Rights Today
An active ideology incompatible with universal standards of freedom and equality.By Bat Ye’or Jihad ideology separates humanity into two hostile blocs: the community of Muslims (Dar ul-Islam), and the infidel non-Muslims (Dar ul-Harb). Allah commands the Muslims to conquer the entire world in order to rule it according to Koranic law. Hence Muslims must wage a perpetual war against those infidels who refuse to submit. This is the motivation for jihad. It is based on the inequality between the community of Allah and the infidels, as was re-emphasized in the Cairo Declaration. The first is a superior group, which must rule the world; the second must submit. The current relevance of this ideology is apparent, and disturbing.
[For example, Al-Muhajiroun, an Islamist newspaper in London, published an article on January 27, 2001, which declared: ...]
Such an attitude assumes that the infidels have no rights and are totally dehumanized. It breeds hatred and contempt and has led to historical negationism, and the destruction of non-Muslim cultures. Moreover, such views are not confined to the most radical Islamists. They were confirmed in the Proceedings of the Fourth Conference of the Academy of Islamic Research, held in 1968 (General Organization for Government Printing Offices, Cairo, 1968), and regularly since then by eminent Islamic scholars. These authoritative pronouncements have recapitulated the theory of jihad in a manner completely consistent with the Al-Muhajiroun statements. Link Here
Myrrh
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and thanks for all the fish
Posts: 4467 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
Understanding how to read the Koran in mainstream Islam:
quote:
A Critical Analysis of ‘Real Islam’. Its People, Culture, Philosophy, and Practices Yesterday and Today. by: Vernon Richards
The revered work "al-Nasikh wal-Mansukh" (The Abrogator and the Abrogated) deals in great detail with many subject matters addressed in the Qur’an wherein there appears to be some conflict or contradiction. The book goes through every sura (chapter), pointing out in full detail every verse which has been canceled, and the verse(s) which replace it. The author notes that out of 114 suras, there are only 43 which were not affected by this concept. As an example of the scope of abrogation in the Qur’an: there are 125 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by sura 9:5: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." and sura 5:33: "For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land".
[See: Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, An-Nasikh wal- Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986 p.27]
Muslim activists universally fail to reveal to Westerners this major doctrine, hiding the fact that earlier conciliatory passages have been rendered null and void for over 1300 years. When Westerners discover it on their own they complain we misinterpret such writings or misapply their impact. Muslim promoters prefer to polish Islam's image by quoting the earlier abrogated Meccan passages that call for patience and forbearance. Spokespersons hide or omit Medinan passages that clearly call for killing and maiming. When hearing people explain Islam claiming the earlier more peaceful verses are dominant in Islamic philosophy, one must judge between two options; Either the presenter is completely ignorant of genuine Islamic doctrine, or he is practicing officially sanctioned Islamic deceit. The Doctrine of Abrogation
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and thanks for all the fish
Posts: 4467 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
But there have been further protests in Iran and Indonesia while influential Qatari Muslim scholar, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, called for a day of anger against the Pope on Friday.
First a few Danish cartoonists, next Benedict XVI. Once again they let someone in the West determine how they're going to spend a day of their lives. The Pope is indeed a powerful man, huh.
This could be an interesting game. Infantile, perhaps, but useful. Maybe we should keep playing until we've worn them out.
How long before they get tired of being so suggestible and hopping to western tunes?
Does the Koran contain a story anything like the boy who cried wolf?
What if they gave a "day of anger" and nobody came?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
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Posted
Yes Alogon, you're right. It's infantile behaviour. I was thinking about it a little yesterday actually, because some relatives of mine have a friend who is researching how Anti-Social Personality Disorder develops in a small (usually male) child, usually through bad upbringing and giving into the whimsies of a naturally strong-willed personality. Threatening a 'day of anger' and throwing a contriived tantrum displays the emotional maturity of a six-year old. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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If I had a coat, I would get it.
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
What if they gave a "day of anger" and nobody came?
Then it would be like the mass student protest against Israel in the city a couple of months ago. It got called off when, 25 minutes after they were supposed to march to Parliament House, there were still only 20 people there.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
[qb] [QUOTE]What if they gave a "day of anger" and nobody came?
Give them a little credit- they aren't that dumb. They have it on Friday after the prayers and weekly sermon (guess the topic).
Posts: 434 | Registered: May 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
It's my considered view that once you start refering to a board full of diverse people as "you people" and suggesting posting patterns can be so trivially psychoanalysed, you've left the path of rational debate.
Are you not part of these debates? Some with similar views to you, some not... or is it Leo contra boardi?
Perhaps people here are also afraid of God, given how much they post about her. (Or him, didn't mean to betray my oedipal complex there.)
[ 20. September 2006, 21:19: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?
Don't be silly. Did you count the posts? No you didn't. Neither of those are likely to be in the top five subjects. Maybe top ten.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?
What are we afraid of? Homosexuality doesn't concern me, interest me or frighten me. Yet I'm shit scared of Islam. What am I scared of then? Lets start at home. Myself and other people very dear to me commute into London on public transport on a regular basis. I'm frightened that we are going to get blown up by a suicide bomber. Many British cities have large Muslim populations which are poorly integrated into the Britisn society around them. I fear that these coimmunities will breed terrorism. I fear that there will be inter-racial strife on the streets as there was in Burnley and Bradford a few years ago.
In the larger world: I fear that Iran will develop a nuclear device, drop it on Israel and precipitate WW3. I fear that Osama's idealogical followers will cause another 9/11 somewhere. I fear that Islam's desire to anihilate Israel will spill over into a major conflict.
I fear, so in the Greek sense of the word I am Islamaphobic. The potential for the nihilistic forces of chaos to engulf us grows daily in this troubled world. But perhaps the time of the Parousia draws nigh and all this is a necessary precurser to that apocalyptic event.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?
Gay Moslems, of course. Why do you ask?
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?
Gay Moslems, of course. Why do you ask?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?
Don't be silly. Did you count the posts? No you didn't. Neither of those are likely to be in the top five subjects. Maybe top ten.
Top 2 - there are about 70 pages about homosexuality in the Dead horses and about 6 separate strands related to Islam throughout the rest of the site
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Crappy hymns and choruses comes out quite high by that reasoning.
Kendrophobia, clearly.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
So does Intelligent Design. Actually the length of that thread is largely the work of half a dozen souls and has died a death completely since Faithful Sheepdog retired hurt from his gallant, yet ultimately doomed, Thermopylae-esque defence of the Disco Institute.
Biblical Inerrancy flattered to decieve a few years ago, but turned out to be the equivalent of a grimly fought out nil-nil draw on a wet February night with Leprechaun as the scrapping right back and Psyduck as the old fashioned centre forward, never quite able to manage the decisive knock out blow, yet keeping the crowds on the edge of their seats.
Hyrdrophobia and Biblophobia, presumably.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?
Don't be silly. Did you count the posts? No you didn't. Neither of those are likely to be in the top five subjects. Maybe top ten.
Top 2 - there are about 70 pages about homosexuality in the Dead horses and about 6 separate strands related to Islam throughout the rest of the site
70 pages on homosexuality?? And 6 sperate stands on Islam, perhaps many should get their priorities straight. Homosexuals are the LEAST of your problems, Whabbists who are bent on world dommination seems just a tennsy winnsy more urgent in the big picture.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
quote:
Whabbists who are bent on world dommination seems just a tennsy winnsy more urgent in the big picture.
Oh fuck me! It turns out that the real brains behind neo-conservatism is Elmer Fudd. It's a Whabbist! It's a Whabbist! I'm going to get that Whabbist if it's the last thing I do!
Actually, if you think about it for a mo you might notice that the thought that Al Qaeda are A Bad Thing is fairly uncontentious and, therefore, doesn't get discussed much on a discussion board.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
So does Intelligent Design. Actually the length of that thread is largely the work of half a dozen souls and has died a death completely since Faithful Sheepdog retired hurt from his gallant, yet ultimately doomed, Thermopylae-esque defence of the Disco Institute.
Biblical Inerrancy flattered to decieve a few years ago, but turned out to be the equivalent of a grimly fought out nil-nil draw on a wet February night with Leprechaun as the scrapping right back and Psyduck as the old fashioned centre forward, never quite able to manage the decisive knock out blow, yet keeping the crowds on the edge of their seats.
Hyrdrophobia and Biblophobia, presumably.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) and as well.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
"Spengler" has an interesting article in Asia Times.
He points out another respect in which the Moslem response to the Pope's words vindicates the Pope's words: the role given to reason in Islam, according to them, is a non-role.
Islamic reason: for Descartes's "I think, therefore I exist" substitute, "I think, therefore
Allah exists."
Christianity survives textual criticism of the Bible, partly because neither Judaism or Christianity claims that the whole tome had a single human author or was written within a brief period. Islam, by contrast, claims, that Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammed. The exercise of reasonable critical techniques upon the text blows this claim to bits. The response of Islam, Spengler suggests, has been to threaten the life of anyone applying these techniques and publishing the results. Those who do so are often anonymous or pseudonymous.
Around Islam, must even the Pope whisper?
As for his later explanation that what he quoted did not reflect his own opinion, Spengler recalls a Russian joke. In 1938, a Muscovite called the KGB to report that his parrot had escaped. The agent asked "why are you calling us about this?"
The reply, "I want to state for the record that I do not share the parrot's political opinions."
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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