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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Discussion thread: Credo (Page 4)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Discussion thread: Credo
Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

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Hard to know how to vote. Unexpectedly, I find the tension between "what do I believe" and "what should a creed for 21st century Christianity be", as much of a puzzle in choosing creeds to vote for, as it was in thinking whether I had something I wanted to post as a creed to start with.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zealot en vacance
Shipmate
# 9795

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The diversity of the entries was particularly interesting. Selection was made a little easier by categorising into styles or types, and then going for best of breed in clarity, quality of expression and memorability.

Really enjoyed this, and once the dust has settled on this one, what other forms could the ship take on? A confession and absolution, a eucharistic prayer?

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He said, "Love one another".

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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654

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Taken from the POll thread:
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on 04 October, 2006 10:32 PM :

quote:
Whew! That was difficult!

I sort of split between creeds that stated really well much of what I believe, and ones that were different yet persuasive.

Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on 05 October, 2006 01:35 AM :

quote:
Interesting. I used "being able to say Amen to them" as the first condition, then within that ranked them by how much ground they covered and then used "poeticness" as a tie breaker.

I was interested by how many I couldn't say Amen to...

Posted by BuzzyBee (# 3283) on 05 October, 2006 10:26 AM :

quote:
I created a spreadsheet with them all on, and gave them all points on (a) whether or not they irritated me (b) to what extent I could agree/assent/say Amen to them (c) how inspiring/uplifting I found them and (d) how useful they could be for me as a christian. The top five scorers got my votes.

Yes, that IS incredibly sad, I know. I am anal, and I like to do things properly and systematically.

Posted by Zealot en vacance (# 9795) on 05 October, 2006 10:57 AM :

quote:
Seems perfectly reasonable and well-organised to me. But then I deeply enjoyed 'High Fidelity'.


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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -

Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
... As the best possible rival to the current creed I would select DOD's entry, as the best complement to it I would select professor kirke's...

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Whereas to my ears Gort's entry sounds like Plotinus on acid...

47 creeds, 40 votes in 48 hours.

Kinda looks like the interest in judging the new creeds is less than the desire to create them. [Big Grin]

Tell ya what: Just vote for mine and if it wins, I will PM each of you the penultimate Key to the Mysteries* and I will reveal the true nature of your legacy as children of God. Your word will become manifest on Earth just as it will in Heaven. A click of the mouse and your destiny will be secured.

Show IngoB that he can dictate the terms of the contest but not the result.


(*Void where taxed or prohibited. Your results may vary. May cause allergic reaction or death. Consult a licensed professional.)

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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Confessio:

I liked Spiffy's. Might be the only vote that little lamb gets, so I might as well confess up front. I did it!

[Hot and Hormonal]

I also voted for a few others. Though I have to say that the Nicene Creed says it for me, but then, as everyone knows, I am a degenerate.

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Even more so than I was before

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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Spiff got one from me, bud. Don't feel like the lonesome stranger!

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--Formerly: Gort--

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BuzzyBee

Ship's Drummer
# 3283

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She'll probably end up winning now if she gets everyones "yeah I'll vote for one silly one" vote.

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BuzzyBee
~~~~~~
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. Martin Luther King, Jr

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Autenrieth Road

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I ended up voting for:
  • one creed (my favorite) expressing the practice more than the statements of Christianity,
  • one emphasizing love (but much better than that tiredly cliched single word expresses by itself),
  • one expressing my doubts,
  • and two making somewhat more traditional statements than I would come up with myself, but things that I can assent to without being in immediate mental conundrums.


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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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I ended up with six that fit my beliefs and included certain things I considered good to be included. I have to admit I ended up choosing which one not to vote for a bit randomly.

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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I didn't categorise, (wish I'd thought of that). I'll admit I did vote for my own as one of my five - after all if I don't assent to it, why write it ? But I'll probably only get one vote [Razz]

I loved marmot's for it's simplicity. Very taken with inclusiveness of cometchaser's.

[ 06. October 2006, 22:47: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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BuzzyBee

Ship's Drummer
# 3283

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Still only 69 people have voted - that's not even half as much again as the number of entries. Does it reduce the validity of the vote if the majority of the voters are biased due to being a candidate?

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BuzzyBee
~~~~~~
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. Martin Luther King, Jr

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tclune
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by BuzzyBee:
Still only 69 people have voted - that's not even half as much again as the number of entries. Does it reduce the validity of the vote if the majority of the voters are biased due to being a candidate?

It may be disappointing if the vote is low, but the vote is just the "beauty contest" portion of the exercise. The real value, ISTM, was in the creation of the creeds in the first place -- and in the thought that went into trying to create one among those of us who failed to submit one.

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It may be disappointing if the vote is low, but the vote is just the "beauty contest" portion of the exercise. The real value, ISTM, was in the creation of the creeds in the first place -- and in the thought that went into trying to create one among those of us who failed to submit one.

--Tom Clune

I agree although I'm actually comfortable with the number of voters. A number of people have remarked how tought the choice was - and a lot of competitions have only one or two judges, not 69.

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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BuzzyBee

Ship's Drummer
# 3283

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quote:
a lot of competitions have only one or two judges, not 69.
Yes, but when a competition has one or two judges, those judges have been selected as sagacious persons who will be able to correctly determine the best candidate. Given that anyone can vote, it's more similar to an election where you need a critical mass of voters such that the results reflect the overall oppinion of a population and a single vote here or there is insufficient to sway the vote at all significantly. In this case, the average number of votes per entry, if they are all of roughly similar standard, will be around 7. That means that a single vote more or less will change the result by a statistically huge amount of 14%.

Though actually, you have a very good point tclune - the value of the exercise was in the creation rather than the judging, so maybe it doesn't matter all that much.

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BuzzyBee
~~~~~~
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. Martin Luther King, Jr

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Mertseger

Faerie Bard
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I had naively hoped that the number of votes would top the attendance at the First Council of Nicea (250-318 according to the ever-accurate Wikipedia). But, then, looking at the surviving polls in the Circus and Limbo, none of the polls SoF has retained show more than 200 votes. (186 for Laura's poll on silly terroism response recomendations in Hell(!) seems to be the highest retained). Where's a Constantine when you need one?

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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.

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BuzzyBee

Ship's Drummer
# 3283

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How about a meta-poll to ask shipmates "Why haven't you voted on the "Credo" poll?"

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BuzzyBee
~~~~~~
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. Martin Luther King, Jr

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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I would also have preferred more participation in the vote. I guess it's a case of "I can't be bothered to read all that."?

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I find the tension between "what do I believe" and "what should a creed for 21st century Christianity be", as much of a puzzle in choosing creeds to vote for

I had to come down to the latter. It can't be personal. Some of the suggested Creeds might be in my opinion complete bollocks. But I can't judge them as statements about the belief of the writer. Maybe they really do think that, who am I to look into their heads? I can only say whether or not I think it is the Church's belief.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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I've posted a reminder about the Credo voting up in the Styx.

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Congratulations and
Rest in Pyx_e.

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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Pyx_e Victor.

And trudy and D.O.D. the only others to get moro than 20 votes.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Jason™

Host emeritus
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Congratulations, Pyx_e.

I had two entries and still couldn't compete. [Biased]

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Pyx_e Victor.

And trudy and D.O.D. the only others to get moro than 20 votes.

Not so fast, ken.

I got 23 - only two behind Pyx_e. And if it hadn't been for those meddling kids...

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Forward the New Republic

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noneen
Shipmate
# 11023

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I noticed (in the circus) that only people who voted can see the results .... which will mean only those of us who voted can engage in the conversation about why other people didn't vote ?!?!?!
.... sounds like a good parish pastoral council meeting - retired people discussing why young people don't come to church on sunday !!!!!!!!! [Two face]

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... 'but Father, Jesus drank wine at Cana and danced' ... 'Not in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he didn't', Father replied

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Mertseger

Faerie Bard
# 4534

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I voted for Pyx_e's long before the controversy. I'm glad to see that his credo came in first. I was tempted during the whole controversy to shamelessly campaign for his credo (though I still like DOD's). I miss Pyx_e.

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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.

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Jonah the Whale

Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244

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quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
I voted for Pyx_e's long before the controversy. I'm glad to see that his credo came in first.

Ditto.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

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Double ditto.

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insert amusing sig. here

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Oh do stop talking as if the guy has died, for goodness' sake! He's probably merely working hard on the sewing pattern for his next pair of rainbow trousers, or somesuch.

Anyway, congrats to all the winners - I've just read through their entries again and am most impressed. Will any of them get an airing in services or prayers in the near future?

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I would also have preferred more participation in the vote. I guess it's a case of "I can't be bothered to read all that."?

It might have worked better if you had two rounds of voting with the first round to select the top 5/6. The second round to vote for 1,2 and 3. This would mean that people would only have to read 6 for the final round.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Pyx_e Victor.

And trudy and D.O.D. the only others to get moro than 20 votes.

Not so fast, ken.

I got 23 - only two behind Pyx_e. And if it hadn't been for those meddling kids...

Gosh, was I actually close??? I never saw the results because I was too torn to ever figure out who to vote for ... but I was impressed by all the winners. I liked Pyx_e's best so I'm glad it won.

[ETA: just realized I could view the results. I think that's the closest I've ever come to placing in a competition ... thanks! [Hot and Hormonal] ]

[ 18. October 2006, 23:57: Message edited by: TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) ]

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Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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Dave Marshall

Shipmate
# 7533

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Congratulations to the winners. [Cool]

I am disappointed that Pyx_e's came first, though. I thought DOD's and Doc Tor's were both somehow more creed-worthy; if I'd been voting for one orthodox entry I'd have probably gone with Doc Tor for the way he handled the resurrection.

Pyx_e's love-in with God obviously pushed the right buttons in terms of votes, but it's so riddled with cliches and Christianese that I would not have been able to say it with a straight face long before I ever had a heretical thought. One more illustration of the limitations of popular judgement, I think.

And sad as I am not to have picked up enough heretical votes to take a prize off him, I hope IngoB feels suitably appreciated for coming up with the idea and the prizes. An inspired and generous contribution to the Ship.

[ 19. October 2006, 00:44: Message edited by: Dave Marshall ]

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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I've just posted the complete tally of votes, go and have a look.

I must say, that the overall vote would be so strongly "conservative" comes as a complete surprise to me. And it rather thwarts the mild irony hidden in the offered prizes - handing out these books to these winner means carrying coals to Newcastle or teaching your grandma to suck duck eggs, really... [Biased]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Merchant Trader
Shipmate
# 9007

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
....... Will any of them get an airing in services or prayers in the near future?

Wow they are great and yes I would love to use some of them for services or prayers or just publish them in parish mags but are they available for these uses? My understanding is that copyright of posts passes to the Ship? So is the Ship giving permission for use and do the competitors/winners have a view ?

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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by Merchant Trader:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
....... Will any of them get an airing in services or prayers in the near future?

Wow they are great and yes I would love to use some of them for services or prayers or just publish them in parish mags but are they available for these uses? My understanding is that copyright of posts passes to the Ship? So is the Ship giving permission for use and do the competitors/winners have a view ?
We've actually dealt with this in the Styx: by posting on the Ship, the membership terms allow SoF a copyright licence to use the creeds and can re-publish them as it sees fit. However this is a licence, not a copyright assignment.

So the copyright and all moral rights in each creed remain with the author of that creed. My suggestion would be to contact the poster concerned, ask their permission ie their licence granted to you or your church group, for the use you have in mind and give them a proper author credit if they want it. We don't actually manage their rights, so you need to contact the person concerned.

I've contacted all winners by e-mail or by PM.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

--------------------
Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I find the tension between "what do I believe" and "what should a creed for 21st century Christianity be", as much of a puzzle in choosing creeds to vote for

I had to come down to the latter. It can't be personal. Some of the suggested Creeds might be in my opinion complete bollocks. But I can't judge them as statements about the belief of the writer. Maybe they really do think that, who am I to look into their heads? I can only say whether or not I think it is the Church's belief.
Judging them as beliefs of the writer? No, of course not. Judging them as things I'd want to be saying regularly? Yes. With a dose of what it makes sense to be saying in a Christian church and not solely a gathering of, say, humanists.

I ended up rather averaging the two POVs -- my beliefs, or the official beliefs? -- tilting towards how I could say my beliefs on my believing days, and leaving aside those that would be quite appropriate for my most unbelieving days. (Sorry, Mad Geo and Papio!)

FWIW, these were my brief notes to myself as I narrowed things down to my final 5:

Mad Geo slightly too much doubt
Trudy Trudy yes positivity & traditional over Papio's negation
Boopy YES my doubt
MrsBarlow YES my faith
Papio a worthy statement, but I choose to assert
mdijon YES a positive path
Lyda*Rose yes a freedom within traditional terms

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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Like AR, I judged the creeds as to whether they were something I could identify with and want to say in church. Even a great creed, if I disagreed with it I didn't vote for it. I also had elements like the Kingdom on earth that I looked for in creeds.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mertseger

Faerie Bard
# 4534

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I just came across the creed in Neil Gaiman's American Gods, and since I had posted the Bull Durham Creed earlier in this thread, I just had to share this one as well:
quote:
I can believe things that are true and I can believe things that aren't true and I can believe things where know one knows if they're true or not. ... I believe that candy really did taste better when I was a kid, that it's aerodynamically impossible for a bumble bee to fly, that light is a wave and a particle, that there's a cat in box somewhere who's alive and dead at the same time (although if they don't ever open the box to feed it it'll eventually just be two kinds of dead), and there are stars in the universe billions of years older than the universe itself. I believe in a personal god who cares about me and worries and oversees everything I do. I believe in an impersonal god who set the universe in motion and went off to hang with her girlfriends and doesn't even know that I'm alive. I believe in an empty and godless universe of causal chaos, background noise, and sheer blind luck. I believe that anyone who says that sex is overrated hasn't done it properly. I believe that anyone who claims to know what's going on will lie about the little things too. I believe in absolute honesty and sensible social lies. I believe in a woman's right to choose, a baby's right to live, that while all human life is sacred there's nothing wrong with the death penalty if you trust the legal system implicitly, and that no one but a moron would ever trust the legal system. I believe that life is a game, that life is a cruel joke, and that life is what happens when you're alive and that you might as well lie back and enjoy it.
Neil Gaiman, American Gods, Harpertorch, NY, NY, 2001 p. 394-395

I'd say it's an amusing secularist, post-modernist creed. It's certainly not the Christian Credo for the next millenia, but its take on what a creed is and its embracing of paradox is relevent to our previous discussions in this thread.

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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.

Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged



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