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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Question time!

I only have a hazy notion what a proper or a preface is. Am I supposed to be using them in EP according to the 1979 BCP?

(If so, where the blankety-blank are they?)

The part of the propers that one would use at the office is the collect of the day, if there is one, or of the preceding Sunday, if there isn't.

In a private recitation of the Office, there's no reason why you can't use the previous Sunday's (or the following Sunday's) psalm or lessons, either, if you don't mind having the same psalm and lessons throughout the week.

A "preface", as Mama Thomas pointed out, is a variable part of some Eucharistic Prayers. Of the Rite II prayers, Prayers A and B have them, Prayers C and D don't.

--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Question time!

I only have a hazy notion what a proper or a preface is. Am I supposed to be using them in EP according to the 1979 BCP?

(If so, where the blankety-blank are they?)

The things generally called "propers" and "prefaces" have to do with Mass (Eucharist), not the daily office, so not EP, if that stands for Evening Prayer, as I think it does. These terms aren't used in connection with the Office in the 1979 BCP.
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Autenrieth Road

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The Collects are found in the 1979 ECUSA BCP beginning page 159 (traditional) and page 211 (contemporary).

Page 122 of Evening Prayer (for example) at the bottom cites the Collect of the Day as one of the "one or more collects" to be said.

--------------------
Truth

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Autenrieth Road

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Re Reading of Psalms, a new method I am trying is to read two pages at a time, plus-or-minus depending on where a Psalm ends, starting at Psalm 1. This is in the ECUSA 1979 BCP psalter, but could be adapted to any printing of psalms... in a Bible a page would be enough.

Recto+verso is easy to keep track of. I leave my bookmark in ready to start next time. I like finding out what the Psalms have to say sequentially rather than hopping about.

Similarly for lectionary readings, which I'm doing for Lent: I've put three bookmarks in and it makes it so much easier to find where to read next. I much prefer reading in course, which the daily office readings largely are. I wouldn't want a preprinted-in-order lectionary because I like to read things in context.

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Truth

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Ignatius' Acolyte
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I am a really new user, and I must say that this thread is really up my alley. Ever since I read Robert Taft's book on the subject, I have been praying the office--I think that was as early as 2001.
I use the CCP office (the blue book), mainly because I like the psalter scheme, and since one can use the same Compline office everyday, it is the one I use most often.
Just a query: someone is going to give me a copy of Galley's Prayer Book Office, but I am also curious about Daily Prayer of the Church, as I have a copy of the LBW:Minister's Desk Edition. Am I right in saying both are supplementary to the 1979 prayer book and the LBW, respectively? Do you think that DPotC is better than the Franciscan office I now use?

Thanks.

--------------------
Be a blessing.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
Just a query: someone is going to give me a copy of Galley's Prayer Book Office, but I am also curious about Daily Prayer of the Church, as I have a copy of the LBW:Minister's Desk Edition. Am I right in saying both are supplementary to the 1979 prayer book and the LBW, respectively? Do you think that DPotC is better than the Franciscan office I now use?

Thanks.

Welcome, PostDenominational Catholic, to one of the best threads aboard Ship.

First, I seriously hope you are aware of what a good gift you are receiving. Galley's PBO is very valuable and highly in demand right now.

Second, you are right in saying that PBO is supplementary to BCP79 and DPotC is supplementary to LBW. I'm sure someone else will be along to compare DPotC to CCP, a purchase which I have been avoiding. (I know, it's only a matter of time.)

In the meantime, check out this awesome post (here) on another Daily Office thread.

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Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I am a really new user, and I must say that this thread is really up my alley. Ever since I read Robert Taft's book on the subject, I have been praying the office--I think that was as early as 2001.

If by Rober Taft's book you mean
this one, then I agree it is an inspiring work.

--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
If by Rober Taft's book you mean
this one, then I agree it is an inspiring work.

That's excellent, and I hasten to recommend in addition George Guiver's excellent Company of Voices: Daily Prayer and the People of God.
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Ignatius' Acolyte
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Thanks to Scott for the book recommendation. I no longer have the ability to use/pay for Amazon or any other online book buying service, so I really rely on the kindness of strangers these days. [Biased]


quote:
First, I seriously hope you are aware of what a good gift you are receiving. Galley's PBO is very valuable and highly in demand right now.

Yes, I am aware of that. It's frighteningly hard to find, as many of the posts attest.

quote:
Second, you are right in saying that PBO is supplementary to BCP79 and DPotC is supplementary to LBW. I'm sure someone else will be along to compare DPotC to CCP, a purchase which I have been avoiding. (I know, it's only a matter of time.)
I hope so too. DPotC has been mentioned on this thread a number of times, so it's piquing my curiosity.

Again, thanks for replying!

--------------------
Be a blessing.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
DPotC has been mentioned on this thread a number of times, so it's piquing my curiosity.

I actually own DPotC. It is CCP that I have been avoiding.
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Divine Office
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In case anyone is interested, there is currently a copy of the Anglican Breviary for sale on eBay for the buy-it-now price of £18.

I suspect that it will be the recent reprint rather than an original edition, but it still seems like a pretty good bargain.

DIVINE OFFICE

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Manipled Mutineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
In case anyone is interested, there is currently a copy of the Anglican Breviary for sale on eBay for the buy-it-now price of £18.

I suspect that it will be the recent reprint rather than an original edition, but it still seems like a pretty good bargain.

DIVINE OFFICE

Yes, I understand that it is the modern reprint.

--------------------
Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books


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Ignatius' Acolyte
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I recently visited my friend, who is deputy chaplain of an Anglican school south of the Philippines capital. They celebrate Morning Prayer--a very simplified form, he says, because it is exactly fifteen minutes long--in their chapel, but only ten people show up and it is mostly not the faculty.
Considering that the Anglican tradition (and to some extent the Roman one) has emphasized the celebration of the offices, how often is it being celebrated in Anglican schools, and how should they do it? Would Roman Catholic schools and universities do well to introduce such practices?
I'm looking for practical ideas in that respect.

--------------------
Be a blessing.

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Extol
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Princeton University has Solemn Vespers in its University Chapel every Sunday evening at 5:45 following the RC campus ministry's 4:30 celebration of Mass. Both the Mass and Vespers are accompanied by a Gregorian Schola, made up of Princeton students. I think any campus Catholic ministry would do well to follow its "last chance" Sunday Mass with Vespers or Compline, and recover this important element of Catholic practice.
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Ignatius' Acolyte
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quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Princeton University has Solemn Vespers in its University Chapel every Sunday evening at 5:45 following the RC campus ministry's 4:30 celebration of Mass. Both the Mass and Vespers are accompanied by a Gregorian Schola, made up of Princeton students. I think any campus Catholic ministry would do well to follow its "last chance" Sunday Mass with Vespers or Compline, and recover this important element of Catholic practice.

Interesting. I am reminded of a big church in my RC university campus which does not have daily services--and is only used on very few occasions. I've often wondered whether instead of staying a white elephant, the church should host a celebration of the offices.
Then again, I would have to convince the Jesuits. You know how they feel about the daily office--Robert Taft, SJ, had to tell them off about it back in 2002!

[ 13. March 2007, 13:29: Message edited by: PostDenominational Catholic ]

--------------------
Be a blessing.

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quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I recently visited my friend, who is deputy chaplain of an Anglican school south of the Philippines capital. They celebrate Morning Prayer--a very simplified form, he says, because it is exactly fifteen minutes long--in their chapel, but only ten people show up and it is mostly not the faculty.

At Ascension, Chicago, our daily Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer average about 16-18 minutes each, and it's the full BCP 1979 office, each with two lessons and two canticles. All said, not sung.
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The Silent Acolyte

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Scott Knitter's place has got this exactly right. Under twenty minutes, without individual variation by officiant. Three collects only; very brief intercessions, if any at all. Folk aren't looking for a meaningful experience; some of us are still on our journey to consciousness at that hour of the morning and don't need the tailoring new officiants sometimes bring to their day. Our crowd runs closer to twenty minutes, though. Scott, does your lot read the Psalms in course or from the Daily Office lectionary?
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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US.

God love you lukacs. I've just finished orderin mine.
Well this is edition of the English Office is entirely disappointing. I'm glad to have the text in a volume I don't feel guilty about handling, but this volume is simply inferior to my expectations.

The registration of the red rubrics is wildly off on the first page of the Kalendar. The exaggerated top and bottom margins make the book a size hard to carry. The binding is a cheap smooth board with no texture; it will not wear well. Many of the first pages of some signatures are wavy like a washboard.

I knew I wouldn't get something of the quality of the Anglican Breviary at the price offered, yet this is quite a let down.

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Extol
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It "prays well," if that is any consolation to you.
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Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
Considering that the Anglican tradition (and to some extent the Roman one) has emphasized the celebration of the offices, how often is it being celebrated in Anglican schools, and how should they do it? Would Roman Catholic schools and universities do well to introduce such practices?
I'm looking for practical ideas in that respect.

One proverb holds that "church without music is like marriage without sex--possible, but not to be expected or encouraged". Another proverb holds that one should "cut one's coat according to one's cloth." I think each of these maxims can apply in proportion.

One of the strengths of Anglicanism is that it can have functioning liturgy with just two books: Prayer Book and Bible. It is possible to pile on the books, especially if music is desired, but the core will always be Prayer Book and Bible.

An example of an Anglican congregation that has weekday offices is
the Chapel of St. John the Divine in champaign, Illinois, which has Morning and Evening Prayer Monday through Friday.

What the Chapel's web site doesn't say is that, in the 1980s, the weekday service was Evening Prayer only. It was over a period of years that they worked up to the schedule they now have. Also, in the 1980s, (and I think still) it was not the Chaplain who officiated at the weekday office. The Chaplain's intent seems to have been to build up a corps of commited lay-folk who would say the office in regular rotation, so that the project would not be dependent on him alone.

The lesson I learn from the Chapel is that a congregation that wants to begin using the daily office should not try to do too much all at once. If there is no Office, try scheduling one or two a year. If there's one or two a year, try going to a monthly schedule. If there's a monthly schedule, try starting a Morning Prayer service on Sundays at 7:00 AM, before the early Eucharist. And so on. And don't let it become dependent on the clergy. It should be something to which the whole congregation is commited to maintaining.

From the later middle ages on, reformers tried to encourage more frequent communion by the laity. Finally in the later 20th century, the ideal was achieved: Weekly communion became the norm in parish churches in many parts of Anglicanism. Part of the price paid was a less-frequent celebration of the Office in many places. I think the great liturgical project of the next few centuries will be to recover a place for the Office, one that does not displace the Eucharist from its central role but complements it.

--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Scott Knitter's place has got this exactly right. Under twenty minutes, without individual variation by officiant. Three collects only; very brief intercessions, if any at all. Folk aren't looking for a meaningful experience; some of us are still on our journey to consciousness at that hour of the morning and don't need the tailoring new officiants sometimes bring to their day. Our crowd runs closer to twenty minutes, though. Scott, does your lot read the Psalms in course or from the Daily Office lectionary?

We use the psalms as appointed in the Daily Office Lectionary. We include the ones that are bracketed for optional omission.
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The Silent Acolyte

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Indeed it does. With my other, original, edition, with the Bible and lectionary bound together with the Office, I prayed it for several years.

That book had been prayed by a Roman Catholic priest for decades and so it will no longer stand up to twice-daily use. Thus, my desire for this reprint.

I've had to fall back on the 1979 BCP bound with the NRSV as my daily prayer book. With that purchase I am completely satisfied. As Horton Davies might say, this book has all the defects of its character.

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The Silent Acolyte

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Mockingbird, that is a carefully written and wise post.
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PD
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I have copies of both the "Anglican Breviary" and "The English Office" both in the recent reprints. The AB is the better bound book, even in the first run of the reprint. The EO's binding seems to be of a quality consistent with it being used as a resource rather than day-in; day-out for one's daily office.

It may be something to do with the High Church tradition here, but I tend to find that the daily Office here is poorly attended except when the Eucharist follows. Then I have a certain element which decides, "well I am off to Mass, so I might as well get there for Mattins/Evensong." We have stuck with the 1928 BCP, and the - uck! - 1944 Lectionary which means that MP and EP last about 18 minutes.

Yours,
Fr. PD

[ 13. March 2007, 15:57: Message edited by: PD ]

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
It may be something to do with the High Church tradition here, but I tend to find that the daily Office here is poorly attended except when the Eucharist follows. Then I have a certain element which decides, "well I am off to Mass, so I might as well get there for Mattins/Evensong." We have stuck with the 1928 BCP, and the - uck! - 1944 Lectionary which means that MP and EP last about 18 minutes.

Welcome, Fr PD!

We have the same experience at Ascension, Chicago, with attendance for the Office being best on Mass days. On my Monday evenings, when ferial (no Mass), I'm most often the sole representative of our parish to the universal gathering at that time.

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Scott, does your lot read the Psalms in course or from the Daily Office lectionary?

I meant to add to my reply the configurations of our hymn-boards for today's offices:

At 6.40am Morning Prayer:

LENT
Ps. 78
1-39
CANT 13
16

At 6.00pm Evening Prayer:

LENT
Ps. 78
40-72
MAG
NUNC

I admit to having an excessive fascination with hymn-boards and their use at the Daily Office. The best is the tall white-oak one of many rows that is used by the monks of St Meinrad Archabbey to display the items to be used in the choirbook:

A43
R287
H53
R209
C112
BVM2

Ours make sense to visitors if they picked up the sheet of basic instructions for participating in the Office and Mass. They find out that all they need to prepare for Evening Prayer is to stick a finger (or more usually a flower-offering envelope) in the BCP at the first psalm given on the hymn-board. But if I think there are newbies out there, I'll announce page numbers occasionally just to help them avoid confusion.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
I think the great liturgical project of the next few centuries will be to recover a place for the Office, one that does not displace the Eucharist from its central role but complements it.

The local Episcopal congregation has just started giving the offices greater emphasis. It is now understood by all that Morning Prayer will precede the first morning liturgy of the day, and Evening Prayer will precede the first evening liturgy of the day. They allow a fifteen minute margin, but it only typically takes about ten, and it is all spoken. Because the Holy Communion follows, they omit whatever they are allowed to omit (Lord's Prayer, Creed if the Nicene Creed is appointed for the day), to be used later.
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Ignatius' Acolyte
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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:

The lesson I learn from the Chapel is that a congregation that wants to begin using the daily office should not try to do too much all at once. If there is no Office, try scheduling one or two a year. If there's one or two a year, try going to a monthly schedule. If there's a monthly schedule, try starting a Morning Prayer service on Sundays at 7:00 AM, before the early Eucharist. And so on. And don't let it become dependent on the clergy. It should be something to which the whole congregation is commited to maintaining.

Correct!
I think it's also a question of awareness. Not too many people realize that there is a non-eucharistic way of celebrating the liturgy (which is why I like the term Liturgy of the Hours) that is strongly Bible-based in content. I consider myself lucky to have discovered that. Which is why I found your next statement, Mockingbird, quite brilliant!

quote:
I think the great liturgical project of the next few centuries will be to recover a place for the Office, one that does not displace the Eucharist from its central role but complements it.
Exactly what my chaplain friend and I believe!

I also think, if you ask me, that the ecumenical movement benefits from this restoration. I noticed that Anglicans and Roman Catholics, and even Orthodox, are picking up ideas for celebrating the Office from each other. (Not to forget the Lutherans. I know the work of the Order of St. Luke has been mentioned here; it's Methodist I think.)
It should be pretty clear to anyone involved in the ecumenical movement that the celebration of the Office, however simple or solemn it may be, is not only a sign of continuity with the past, but also something that is--due to the above-mentioned unfamiliarity--quite innovative as a way of praying together!

[ 14. March 2007, 00:00: Message edited by: PostDenominational Catholic ]

--------------------
Be a blessing.

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Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I hasten to recommend in addition George Guiver's excellent Company of Voices: Daily Prayer and the People of God.

I second PDC's thanks to Scott for the tip-off.

I find it interesting that Giuver's book was written before Taft's.

--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
I find it interesting that Giuver's book was written before Taft's.

And Guiver updated his book in 2001. The 2001 edition has the more colorful cover.
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PD
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All things considered, I would prefer to have Morning Prayer before the principal Mass rather than before the early Low Mass. However, that does not work here so it goes before the 9am Mass. I usually find that the half the 9am congregation attend the service of MP which preceeds it.

PD

--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!

My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com

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Olaf
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I recently received a copy of Monastic Diurnal Revised. It has been quite enjoyable, but one part of it leaves me perplexed.

Why do the proper antiphons for the Benedictus and Magnificat connect to the Gospel from the Eucharistic Lectionary instead of the Gospel from the Daily Office Lectionary? Do the sisters use the Eucharistic Lectionary for the offices?

It is actually better for me because I use the Eucharistic Lectionary anyway, but it does seem a bit odd. I have not checked to see if this holds true for the entire year, but it certainly holds true for Lent. The connection is extremely obvious, and not in the least bit subtle. Typically it is the key two verses of the reading.

Any ideas?

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DitzySpike
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It is usual to draw the gospel antiphons from the gospel text for the mass of the day. In the older breviaries, patristic commentaries for mattins are taken from homilies on the day's gospel so there's another connection bringing together the Mag/ Ben antiphons and the lessons read at Mattins.
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The Scrumpmeister
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The main Offices that I sing are Prime and Compline. In the past, I used The Anglican Breviary. I didn't sing the Office for some time until some months ago when I again picked up Prime and Compline from The Monastic Diurnal. I always felt that there was something missing but couldn't quite place my finger on it. I then fell out of practice again until fairly recently when, because of particular local circumstances, I started singing the Office again from The Saint Colman Prayer Book (SCPB). I actually prefer The Monastic Diurnal (MD) because it has all of the psalms together in the right place, is much more compact, and has the Marian antiphons, and the references to our holy Father Benedict, and so I have taken up using that again, and the immediate contrast between that and the SCPB has made me realise what it is that is missing. Compline in the MD contains neither the Nunc Dimittis with its antiphon nor the responsory Into thy hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit.

Is it that these are not part of the Benedictine tradition? I looked at Compline from Christminster (Benedictine), and that form does indeed include the Nunc Dimittis, after the Chapter with its versicle and response Keep me, O Lord, as the apple...&c., but without its antiphon Preserve us, O Lord, while waking...&c. However, even the Christminster use does not contain the Into thy hands, O Lord responsory, which I love.

Does anybody know whether these are of a particular tradition which may explain their absence from the forms of Compline that I currently have? Also, as I no longer have ready access to the AB, please would somebody let me know where in the following order of Compline they properly go?
  • Sir, ask a blessing.
    The Almighty grant us a quiet night ...&c.
  • Short Lesson (1 Peter 5:8)
  • Our help...&c.
  • Pater Noster.
  • Confession & Absolution.
  • Turn us, then...&c.
  • Opening versicles.
  • Psalms 4, 91, & 134.
  • Hymn: Te lucis ante terminum.
  • Chapter (Jeremiah 14:9).
  • Keep us, O Lord, as the apple...&c.
  • Kyrie eleison. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison.
  • Pater Noster.
  • Preces (Credo, Versicles & Responses).
  • Visit, we beseech Thee, O Lord, this habitation...&c.
  • Let us bless...&c.
  • Blessing.
  • Marian antiphon.
  • May the divine help...&c.

Many thanks.

--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Manipled Mutineer
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My copy of the Collegeville Short Breviary (a Benedictine production, although modelled on the Roman Breviary) contains both the RB Compline and Monastic Compline. The former retains, whilst the latter omits, the Nunc and Into Thy hands, O Lord so I suspect that you are right that it is not part of the Benedictine tradition.

This from the Short Breviary:

Sir, ask a blessing.
The Almighty grant us a quiet night ...&c.
Short Lesson (1 Peter 5:8)
Our help...&c.
Pater Noster.
Confession & Absolution.
Turn us, then...&c.
Opening versicles.
Psalms 4, 91, & 134.
Hymn: Te lucis ante terminum.
Chapter (Jeremiah 14:9).
Into Thy Hands, O Lord
Keep us, O Lord, as the apple...&c.
Nunc Dimittis
Kyrie eleison. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison.
Pater Noster.
Preces (Credo, Versicles & Responses).
Visit, we beseech Thee, O Lord, this habitation...&c.
Let us bless...&c.
Blessing.
Marian antiphon.
May the divine help...&c.

--------------------
Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books


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seasick

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When I was on retreat at a Benedictine monastery recently I read something about their offices. While they use a more modern rite now which includes the Nunc Dimittis, it noted that the traditional Benedictine rite did not. I don't remember anything about the responsory though.

--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Manipled Mutineer
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# 11514

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I should have added that the Short Breviary has only a single versicle and response preceding "Visit, we beseech Thee" but interpolates one of four anthems of our Blessed Lady* with versicle, response and prayer before "May the divine assistance."

* "Hail! Queen of heaven" at the moment, and until Compline of Wednesday in Holy Week.

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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
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dj_ordinaire
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How very strange... I've really no idea whether Benedictine traditions have often omitted the Responsory or Nunc, but both are certainly present in the usual places in BDP...

--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...

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Manipled Mutineer
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This extract from the Catholic Encyclopaedia may give a clue:

"it cannot be denied that St. Benedict invested the Hour of Complin with its liturgical character and arrangement, which were preserved in the Benedictine Order and almost completely adopted by the Roman Church; it is hardly to be believed... that the Hour of Complin, at least such as it now exists in the Roman Breviary, antedated the Benedictine Office.

In default of other proof, it may be noted that the Benedictine Office gives evidence of a less advanced liturgical condition, as we have seen that it consists of a few very simple elements. The Roman Office of Complin is richer and more complicated. To the simple Benedictine psalmody... it adds the solemn introduction of a benediction with a reading..., and the confession and absolution of faults.

But what endows the Roman Complin with a distinctive character and greater solemnity is, to say nothing of the ending, the addition of the beautiful response, In manus tuas, Domine, with the evangelical canticle Nunc Dimittis and its anthem, which is very characteristic. It is really difficult to understand why St. Benedict, whose liturgical taste favoured solemnity in the Office, should have sacrificed these elements, especially the evangelical canticle." [emboldening mine.]

Presumably, therefore, the Benedictine office remained static, without taking on enrichments such as the Nunc, as the Roman Breviary did.

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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
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The Scrumpmeister
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Aha!

Thanks, everyone, for the informative comments, and especially Manipled Mutineer for the detail and research. I shall include them in the places you indicate from the Short Breviary.

[Smile]

--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
When I was on retreat at a Benedictine monastery recently I read something about their offices. While they use a more modern rite now which includes the Nunc Dimittis, it noted that the traditional Benedictine rite did not. I don't remember anything about the responsory though.

Compline at St Gregory's Abbey (Episcopal, OSB) in Michigan doesn't include the Nunc.

Ch. 17 of the Rule of St Benedict lays out his plan for Compline:

Three psalms without antiphon
Hymn
Lesson
Verse
Kyrie
Blessing
Concluding Prayers

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Manipled Mutineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Aha!

Thanks, everyone, for the informative comments, and especially Manipled Mutineer for the detail and research. I shall include them in the places you indicate from the Short Breviary.

[Smile]

Well, if you will ask these interesting questions just when I have I have a copy of a Benedictine office book readily to hand and a strong urge not to edit the set of minutes I have before me....

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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books


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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I recently received a copy of Monastic Diurnal Revised. It has been quite enjoyable, but one part of it leaves me perplexed.

Why do the proper antiphons for the Benedictus and Magnificat connect to the Gospel from the Eucharistic Lectionary instead of the Gospel from the Daily Office Lectionary? Do the sisters use the Eucharistic Lectionary for the offices?

Glad you've got an MDR now! I've got three! [Yipee] Gotta have a backup, you know.

As others have mentioned, the Gospel canticle antiphons often connect to the Mass Gospel, especially on Sundays. Another traditional such connection is the first proclamation of the Sunday or holy-day Mass Gospel after a third nocturn of Psalms at Matins (Vigils).

Now you can join me in nagging the CSM sisters to publish, for sale, their chant book for the MDR. They've been promising for years on their Web site to do so if there's enough interest.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Now you can join me in nagging the CSM sisters to publish, for sale, their chant book for the MDR. They've been promising for years on their Web site to do so if there's enough interest.

UPDATE: No need to nag. The CSM sisters' current newsletter tells of trial copies of The Monastic Diurnal Noted Revised being proofread. They've also printed 500 fresh copies of The Monastic Diurnal Revised. I've already written to Mother Miriam to ask to be an MDNR proofreader and to thank the sisters for their MDR, being used and worn out by many out in the world, including the Order of St Anne at our parish.

[ 16. March 2007, 16:26: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]

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Extol
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Does anyone know what table of lessons is used for the C of E's online BCP offices at the following site:

http://tinyurl.com/29mowv

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Divine Office
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Would I be right in thinking that the psalm distribution amongst the daily offices in the Monastic Diurnal Revised is fairly similar to that in Benedictine Daily Prayer? I think there are some differences, though, such as the joining of Mattins and Lauds in the MDR.

I suspect that both of them may owe a great deal to the current Benedictine schema, as now found in Latin in the new edition of the Antiphonale Monasticum published by the Abbey of Solesmes.

DIVINE OFFICE

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Olaf
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# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
UPDATE: No need to nag. The CSM sisters' current newsletter tells of trial copies of The Monastic Diurnal Noted Revised being proofread. They've also printed 500 fresh copies of The Monastic Diurnal Revised. I've already written to Mother Miriam to ask to be an MDNR proofreader and to thank the sisters for their MDR, being used and worn out by many out in the world, including the Order of St Anne at our parish.

I hope they take you up on the offer. Then you can give us a preview!
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Ignatius' Acolyte
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quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I should have added that the Short Breviary has only a single versicle and response preceding "Visit, we beseech Thee" but interpolates one of four anthems of our Blessed Lady* with versicle, response and prayer before "May the divine assistance."

* "Hail! Queen of heaven" at the moment, and until Compline of Wednesday in Holy Week.

I should add that the Celebrating Common Prayer version of Compline suggests just that. The local Benedictine abbey uses a Marian anthem at the end of their conflated Vigils/Compline service, as far as I know, and I think also Nunc Dimittis.

--------------------
Be a blessing.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
It is usual to draw the gospel antiphons from the gospel text for the mass of the day. In the older breviaries, patristic commentaries for mattins are taken from homilies on the day's gospel so there's another connection bringing together the Mag/ Ben antiphons and the lessons read at Mattins.

Thank you Scott and DitzySpike. Ten years ago, I never would have imagined I'd have access to some of the most knowledgeable breviary fans in the whole world.
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Oblatus
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I've already written to Mother Miriam to ask to be an MDNR proofreader and to thank the sisters for their MDR, being used and worn out by many out in the world, including the Order of St Anne at our parish.

I hope they take you up on the offer. Then you can give us a preview!
They have! And I shall! [Yipee] [Yipee] [Yipee]
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