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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Would I be right in thinking that the psalm distribution amongst the daily offices in the Monastic Diurnal Revised is fairly similar to that in Benedictine Daily Prayer? I think there are some differences, though, such as the joining of Mattins and Lauds in the MDR.

I suspect that both of them may owe a great deal to the current Benedictine schema, as now found in Latin in the new edition of the Antiphonale Monasticum published by the Abbey of Solesmes.

Correct on all counts, in my humble opinion! The MDR (as its predecessor, the Monastic Diurnal) has the historic Quinones breviary as a significant influence as well, especially for their three-psalm single nocturn at Matins. While the new book calls the whole morning office Matins, the structure of Matins and Lauds is easy to see within it, as there's a second batch of two psalms on a weekly schedule, which are the Lauds psalms.

I really think the Monastic Diurnal Revised is a superb Benedictinization of the admittedly already Benedictine BCP office. The more I use the MDR, the more I admire it. It may look a bit more homemade than the Oxford-published MD of yore, but it's no less a product of good scholarship and thoughtful effort.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I've already written to Mother Miriam to ask to be an MDNR proofreader and to thank the sisters for their MDR, being used and worn out by many out in the world, including the Order of St Anne at our parish.

I hope they take you up on the offer. Then you can give us a preview!
They have! And I shall! [Yipee] [Yipee] [Yipee]
That was fast! Was it just out of the blue or do they know you well?
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
That was fast! Was it just out of the blue or do they know you well?

I e-mailed Mother Miriam, and she said they'd be glad to send me the music if I helped out with costs, suggesting $20. Gladly.
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Extol
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Let's get this thread back on the first page, shall we?

I am afraid my question got buried at the bottom of the last page of this thread. Can anyone tell me what table of lessons is used in the online 1662 BCP office hosted by the C of E at the following page:

http://tinyurl.com/29mowv

Is it the "Order for the Eucharist and MP and EP 2007" published by SCM/Canterbury?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Can anyone tell me what table of lessons is used in the online 1662 BCP office hosted by the C of E at the following page:

http://tinyurl.com/29mowv

Is it the "Order for the Eucharist and MP and EP 2007" published by SCM/Canterbury?

I've sent your question to Mr Kershaw whose name is attached to that site, and I shall report back. [Smile]
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Extol
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Thanks Scott--I should have thought to e-mail Simon myself. Incidentally, no word back from All Saints Sisters of the Poor re: their use of the MD.
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J.S. Bach
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Cynthia Bourgeault’s Chanting the Psalms arrived on my doorstep today. Leafing through the book and listening to a few tracks on the CD, I am starting to really like the New Camaldoli approach to chant. Their version of the Benedictus and changing doxologies are quite nice too.

I’m now looking that much more forward to the release of New Camaldoli’s Lauds and Vespers book. For those of you familiar with their office, how many weeks of variations does their psalter have?

Blessings,
JSB

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I’m now looking that much more forward to the release of New Camaldoli’s Lauds and Vespers book. For those of you familiar with their office, how many weeks of variations does their psalter have?

If it's the same as the Italian office (that of what might be called "Old Camaldoli"), there's Vigils, Lauds, Midday, and Vespers, each divided into two weeks: even weeks and odd weeks. Compline psalms are on a weekly cycle.

Source: Salterio Monastico: Canto e Preghiera, 1993.

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PD
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The lectionary used for the BCP 1662 on the Church of England website is the three year lectionary authorized for use with Common Worship.

PD

--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!

My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com

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Extol
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Thanks Fr. PD--how does that table of lessons rate in your book? Any better than the US '45 table? My default is still the English '22, but that can be quite the workout.
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Extol
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Here's a link to the English 1922 Revised Tables of Lessons. I have heard but cannot confirm that the old editions of the ENGLISH OFFICE included far more dedicated lessons for feast days:

http://tinyurl.com/2nddb6

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Olaf
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*bump*

With the Holy Triduum almost upon us, it might be interesting to have a break-down of which offices we should and should not be saying. I suppose I could look this up, but for posterity it should be posted here. Do we sing Vespers on Maundy Thursday? Is Compline a no-no on Holy Saturday? Who among us can post the break down? (Extra points for those doing it from memory.)

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Mockingbird

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Back when they did the Easter Vigil in the afternoon, I think they would have managed to work Compline in without much difficulty. Doing it nowadays, when we try to wait til sunset before starting the Vigil would be a little harder. And it might differ depending on whether Compline was held after the Vigil, or before it. Most places I have been, the blessing of the New Fire was begun at an hour between 7:30 PM and 10:30 PM local time on Saturday. In one church, though, in the Mojave Desert of California, they began the Vigil at 5:30 AM on Sunday morning.

--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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Ecce Quam Bonum
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
*bump*

With the Holy Triduum almost upon us, it might be interesting to have a break-down of which offices we should and should not be saying. I suppose I could look this up, but for posterity it should be posted here. Do we sing Vespers on Maundy Thursday? Is Compline a no-no on Holy Saturday? Who among us can post the break down? (Extra points for those doing it from memory.)

I may be wrong, being only a liturgical and Daily Office novice, but regarding Compline on Holy Saturday:

It seems to be prohibited where the Easter Vigil is celebrated. (The Monastic Diurnal Revised makes this point.)

Having consulted the Anglican Breviary as well, it seems to assume that there will be Compline on Holy Saturday (using Sunday psalms, etc.). But correct me if I'm wrong, is this because the Easter Vigil was not really a normal service when the AB was published?

--------------------
"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Here's a link to the English 1922 Revised Tables of Lessons. I have heard but cannot confirm that the old editions of the ENGLISH OFFICE included far more dedicated lessons for feast days:

http://tinyurl.com/2nddb6

lukacs, My edition is:

The English Office Book, revised edition, Society of SS. Peter and Paul, Church Literature Association, Lord Halifax House, 6 Hyde Park Gate, S.W. 7., First Published 1956, Printed in Great Britain by The Camelot Press Ltd., London and Southampton

bound together with the pericopes and "Tables of Lessons:"

The Lessons for Mattins and Evensong throughout the Year according to The Revised Lectionary of 1922, Oxford, at the University Press, London: Geoffrey Cumberleigh, Oxford University Press, Amen House, E.C. 4

The feasts listed in your url match those given in the "Tables of Lessons" and the citations for St. Andrew match as well.

Does anybody have the non-Revised Edition who could answer lukacs question?


Ecce Quam Bonum, could you give the curious among us a cite for your sig?

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Ecce Quam Bonum
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Ecce Quam Bonum, could you give the curious among us a cite for your sig?

Hi, TSA. The quote in my sig comes from the preface to the Laws of Ecclesiastical Polity. I found the quote from a selection of the Laws from some online selections from the Norton Anthology of English Literature, which may be found here:

Selections from the Laws

The quote occurs about halfway down the first page.

--------------------
"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"

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Ignatius' Acolyte
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
*bump*

With the Holy Triduum almost upon us, it might be interesting to have a break-down of which offices we should and should not be saying. I suppose I could look this up, but for posterity it should be posted here. Do we sing Vespers on Maundy Thursday? Is Compline a no-no on Holy Saturday? Who among us can post the break down? (Extra points for those doing it from memory.)

I may be wrong, being only a liturgical and Daily Office novice, but regarding Compline on Holy Saturday:

It seems to be prohibited where the Easter Vigil is celebrated.

The rubrics in Celebrating Common Prayer, as does those of the current Roman office, says that "Night Prayer is not said by those who attend the Easter Vigil." I am ministering at the Easter Vigil, so I will not say Compline.
Hope that helps.

--------------------
Be a blessing.

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Divine Office
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With regard to The English Office, I think that The Order for the Celebration of the Eucharist and the Recitation of the Divine Office in the Church of England, compiled by Fr Hunwicke and published each year by Canterbury Press, provides daily readings for Matins and Evensong from the 1922 lectionary, which I think include the propers for major feasts.

This might be the best resource to use with The English Office. It's a pity that the reprint didn't include a lectionary, though.

DIVINE OFFICE

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Extol
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Divine Office, I just assumed that "The Order for the Celebration of the Eucharist . . . " was the same as the three-year CW lectionary. It's actually the 1922 Tables?
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Olaf
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What of the Tenebrae vs. Vespers issue?
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Divine Office
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lukacs wrote:-

quote:
Divine Office, I just assumed that "The Order for the Celebration of the Eucharist . . . " was the same as the three-year CW lectionary. It's actually the 1922 Tables?
The Order for the Celebration of the Eucharist... does indeed have the CW lectionary for the Office and the Eucharist, but it also has the 1922 readings for Matins and Evensong in the far right-hand column, as I remember.

It also has all of the RC propers for the United Kingdom as well as the purely C of E ones, and indicates the correct week to use for the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours, so it's a pretty useful resource to have available.

DIVINE OFFICE

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Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
*bump*

Is Compline a no-no on Holy Saturday?

The Hereford Breviary of 1505 clearly indicates Compline on Holy Saturday. (Page 323 of this edition.) It includes Alleluias, so they expected it to take place after the Vigil.

The rubrics in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer state that the Easter Vigil is the first service of Easter Day. There is no rubric forbidding Compline before or after, though I have never known Compline to be celebrated on that night in any Episcopal Church.

--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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Olaf
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Concerning Compline on Holy Saturday, I've got a challenge that is sure to perplex the folks here.

A local Roman Catholic Church, which is famously known for its in-and-out-in-forty-minutes-or-less masses, has a Holy Saturday schedule somewhat like this:

7:30 pm Great Vigil
9:30 pm Easter Mass

Yes, they are separate and distinct liturgies. The later mass is a sort of anticipated Easter Mass, exactly like one would find on Easter morning, only celebrated between the Great Vigil and Midnight. (So it's basically a chance to go to Easter Mass on the Saturday before, without having to sit through the entire Vigil, which is probably an hour and fifteen minutes to an hour and a half long--in other words, about three times what the people at this church expect in a mass.)

First of all, is this even correct? (It is not fifteen blocks from the local Cathedral, and even closer to the diocesan offices, so it is safe to assume the bishop is well aware of this practice.) Second, if this is possible, what would one do with the offices in this instance?

[ 25. March 2007, 21:43: Message edited by: Martin L ]

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DitzySpike
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quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Cynthia Bourgeault’s Chanting the Psalms arrived on my doorstep today. Leafing through the book and listening to a few tracks on the CD, I am starting to really like the New Camaldoli approach to chant. Their version of the Benedictus and changing doxologies are quite nice too.

Blessings,
JSB

I'm using her book to conduct a workshop on contemplative prayer using the psalms tomorrow. Her chapter on the 'yoga' of chanting gives good advice. I've not done contemplative prayer workshops with middle school kids so I'm crossing my fingers.

My St Meinrad antiphonaries arrived today. They are a good source for musical settings for the Opus Dei. 10 or so antiphons provided for each psalm is rather over the top but its a comprehensive attempt to provide the music for an English monastic thesaurus and the Roman secular office.

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Patrick
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The "prohibition" of Compline (and Paschal Matins on Easter Day) on Holy Saturday for those attending the Vigil dates back only to the Holy Week reforms of Pius XII, as is also the case with the prohibition of sung Vespers on Holy Thursday and Good Friday. The elimination of Vespers entirely when one attends the main liturgies of those two days is a provision of the post-Vatican II Rite. As one of those critics of those earlier changes (Msgr. Gromier, a Papal Master of Ceremony) asked, does the Eucharist compete with the Divine Office? Do we not (most of us) go to bed after the Paschal Vigil? Is it not appropriate to pray before committing ouselves to sleep? And what better prayer than the prayer of the Church: Compline? Those outside the Roman Communion have no reason to slavishly adhere to relatively recent liturgical stipulations, IMHO.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick:
Those outside the Roman Communion have no reason to slavishly adhere to relatively recent liturgical stipulations, IMHO.

Ah, but we are not necessarily outside of the Roman communion, per se, but rather in an imperfect communion with them, in the opinion of the Roman Catechism.

Nevertheless, slavish adherence to liturgical stipulations (recent, ancient, or recently re-discovered) is our MO here at Daily Offices. Well, we discuss adherence to them, at least! [Biased]

Thank you for a thoughtful post, Patrick. You should come around more often.

[ 26. March 2007, 19:57: Message edited by: Martin L ]

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The Scrumpmeister
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I have another Compline question, I fear.

Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.

I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.

--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question, I fear.

Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.

I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.

Unfortunately, there is no conclusive answer to this. It really depends on which breviary you are using. The overall opinion seems to be that the Gloria Patri should be saved until the end of the Psalter portion at Compline, but I believe I've seen it after every Psalm.

In other words, let the debate begin.

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question, I fear.

Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.

I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.

Unfortunately, there is no conclusive answer to this. It really depends on which breviary you are using. The overall opinion seems to be that the Gloria Patri should be saved until the end of the Psalter portion at Compline, but I believe I've seen it after every Psalm.

In other words, let the debate begin.

Thanks for this, Martin L.

Current resources to hand are The Monastic Diurnal and Compline as used at Christminster.

The MD doesn't indicate any Gloria (but then usually doesn't anyway, so that means nothing). Also, its rubrics don't indicate that the psalms at Compline are to be done any differently from those at the other offices, except to say that there is no antiphon.

Christminster has the Gloria at the end of the first psalm but not the others. Perhaps the first psalm is seen as setting the precedent for how the others are to be executed, with the intention that each should conclude with the Gloria.

I know that psalters set psalms 4, 91, and 134 to the same psalm tone, which seems to indicate something of a unity. Then again, this may well be because Compline is the last Office before bed, would have have traditionally been said with little light and when the monks were tired and really not in the modd to be fussing about with variations on psalms and chants, so that may not necessarily be indicative of anything either.

My instinct is to do it after each psalm and I think I'll stick with that until I find something that tells me to do otherwise.

--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Olaf
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I checked a few breviaries, and discovered the following:

  • Monastic Diurnal Revised leaves the Gloria Patri for the very end. The sisters who compiled MDR are GP obsessed, so this should tell us something.
  • St. Helena Breviary also reserves it for the very end alone.
  • The 1979 US book states that the Gloria Patri is said after the Psalms. The positioning of the rubric and text of the GP is after the Psalms, but the rubric is ambiguous and can be taken to mean after each Psalm or at the very end, although the latter is clearly suggested. Ya gotta love Anglican rubrics!
  • Benedictine Daily Prayer reserves it for the very end.

I would describe all of the above resources as Benedictine in spirit. I have a sizeable collection of Lutheran resources, but we use a Psalm prayer at the end of each Psalm and the Gloria Patri is therefore omitted.

When the others come around, I'm sure they will have more to add. It is a rare breviary in the world that someone here does not have, so if it's conclusive answers you're seeking, this is quite possibly the one and only place to find them, if they exist at all. Keep watching!

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Choirboy
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In the Monastic Diurnal, the only notations I can find on the Gloria Patri generally are a direction in the General Rubrics under customs of the divine office and after the first psalm in the book (Monday at prime, Psalm 1) which both seem to indicate you say the Gloria Patri after each psalm or canticle unless otherwise noted.

There is no explicit instruction in the rubrics in the Compline section. However, cf. the rubrics omitting the Gloria between psalms 148-150 at Lauds [at the end of 148, 149 the explicit text 'Glory be is not said here'].

One or several antiphons doesn't strike me as an argument. After all, during Paschaltide a number of the regular psalms are done under a single Alleluia antiphon instead of several antiphons as in the rest of the year without changing the GP practice for the season.

Surely the extra GP's are no burden on memorization of the office either.

Don't know if there is anything in the Rule of Benedict on this or not.

It seems to me that for the traditional Benedictine office (as represented by this breviary from ~1924 anyway), you'd say the GP after each of the Compline psalms, including the very brief 134.

[edited to remove redundant redundancy]

[ 27. March 2007, 20:46: Message edited by: Choirboy ]

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Manipled Mutineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question, I fear.

Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.

I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.

Unfortunately, there is no conclusive answer to this. It really depends on which breviary you are using. The overall opinion seems to be that the Gloria Patri should be saved until the end of the Psalter portion at Compline, but I believe I've seen it after every Psalm.

In other words, let the debate begin.

Thanks for this, Martin L.

Current resources to hand are The Monastic Diurnal and Compline as used at Christminster.

The MD doesn't indicate any Gloria (but then usually doesn't anyway, so that means nothing). Also, its rubrics don't indicate that the psalms at Compline are to be done any differently from those at the other offices, except to say that there is no antiphon.

Christminster has the Gloria at the end of the first psalm but not the others. Perhaps the first psalm is seen as setting the precedent for how the others are to be executed, with the intention that each should conclude with the Gloria.

I know that psalters set psalms 4, 91, and 134 to the same psalm tone, which seems to indicate something of a unity. Then again, this may well be because Compline is the last Office before bed, would have have traditionally been said with little light and when the monks were tired and really not in the modd to be fussing about with variations on psalms and chants, so that may not necessarily be indicative of anything either.

My instinct is to do it after each psalm and I think I'll stick with that until I find something that tells me to do otherwise.

The general rubrics in my copy of the Hours of the Divine Office simply state (much as in Choirboy's Monastic Diurnal) that "at the end of each psalm and canticle except the canticle Benedicite the Gloria Patri is said." I can't see anything in the Ordinary or the Psalter for Sunday (for example) which would abrogate this in the case of Compline. A Short Breviary has much the same provision.

Turning to Anglican sources, Compline in Prime and Hours shews Glory be after each psalm, as does Hours of Prayer.

[ 27. March 2007, 21:09: Message edited by: Manipled Mutineer ]

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Manipled Mutineer
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To add that my copy of the Little Office of the BVM also gives the Gloria Patri after each of the Compline psalms.

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John H
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I get the general impression that there's a bit of a move afoot among those who write these offices to downplay/abolish the Gloria Patri after psalms generally, not just at Compline.

Common Worship:Daily Prayer and CCP both include notes whose approach to ending psalms with the Gloria Patri can be summed up as, "Oh, if you must, but what's wrong with those nice psalm prayers we've written for you?"

Does anyone have any idea why the Gloria Patri seems slightly out of favour in this context?

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Choirboy
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After listening to endless hours of the Psalms of David set to Anglican chant from various great choirs, I can't imagine not having the GP.

Maybe it's just one of those things that is too jarring due to it's familiarity to be redone as inclusive-language, so omission is the inclusive response.

Or maybe they just find it repetitive, especially in offices with several psalms per canonical hour.

Or possibly both.

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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
After listening to endless hours of the Psalms of David set to Anglican chant from various great choirs, I can't imagine not having the GP.

Maybe it's just one of those things that is too jarring due to it's familiarity to be redone as inclusive-language, so omission is the inclusive response.

Or maybe they just find it repetitive, especially in offices with several psalms per canonical hour.

Or possibly both.

I would think the second is more likely.

Another thing worthy of asking: when the Office is publicly celebrated, does anyone rise (and bow) at the GP? This is of course a custom which I believe was mentioned in the RB.
When I celebrated the Office with the local Anglican seminary, I noticed that they do not. When I celebrated this with the monks of the local Benedictine abbey, they did.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I get the general impression that there's a bit of a move afoot among those who write these offices to downplay/abolish the Gloria Patri after psalms generally, not just at Compline.

When it it a Lutheran hymnal committee, then I'd agree with you. Of course, how many Lutheran hymnal committees have people that are actually knowledgeable about the offices at all? (Wait a minute,...don't answer that! [Disappointed] [Roll Eyes] )

When it is a group of monastics who are committed to praying the Psalter on a regular cycle, I really can't believe that they would have nefarious intentions.

quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
When I celebrated the Office with the local Anglican seminary, I noticed that they do not. When I celebrated this with the monks of the local Benedictine abbey, they did.

[Snigger] Sounds like what the local Methodist congregations do--stand up, sing a vigorous Gloria Patri, and then sit down again 15 seconds later!
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Choirboy
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quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I would think the second is more likely.

No data either way by way of support, I guess. I could see inclusivity being at least part of the reason in a book specializing in inclusive language. The whole Creator/Redeemer/Sanctifier thing seems to be aging poorly. I have had some folks in a parish setting ask to tone down the number of Gloria Patri's for inclusivity sake. As the only required spots (as near as I can tell) in the ECUSA '79 service are at the precis and at the end of the psalmody, that's what we do.

quote:
Another thing worthy of asking: when the Office is publicly celebrated, does anyone rise (and bow) at the GP?

We do at our place and at the daily Evensong I attend at another place.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I have had some folks in a parish setting ask to tone down the number of Gloria Patri's for inclusivity sake.

You need to procure a copy of St. Helena Breviary, if it has not been done so already. Then, after gawking at it for a couple of weeks, actually start using it. It will be jarring at first, but eventually the sisters will win you over with their deft and respectful use of inclusive language.

I really don't think the answer to creating an inclusive environment is simply to omit the non-inclusive liturgical portions. BTW, it is probably a good idea to shell out the extra $$ for the Monastic Edition (with chant). IIRC, the binding on both the Personal and Monastic editions is not the best, but if you buy the Personal edition you will forever be wondering what the music is like.

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Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question

Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.

The Hereford Breviary of 1505 (page 92) states that at Compline
quote:
post unumquemque psalmum dicitur Gloria Patri,
that is in English,
quote:
Gloria Patri is said after each and every psalm.
My battered Breviarium Romanum under Rubrici generales XXII.6, states that Gloria Patri is ordinarily said after each psalm, except for Psalm 63 and 148 and 149 at Lauds, which are combined respectively with psalms 67 and 150. Also the Gloria Patri is not said during the Triduum or in the Office of the Dead.

The modern practice, as others have noted, seems to be to say it only at the end. I think the modus novus makes sense. Piling on the repetitions can be wearisome.

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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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This was what I told my (contemplative prayer workshop) students, on what they can make out of the Daily Office Texts.

1) God come to our assistance V&R expresses the basic human desires and need for the Ultimate Other; this includes divine assistance for our day and a more abstract union with God.

2) Explained that the Glory Be is a hymn to the Trinity. The Trinity is a dance of relationship between the Three persons that springs forth creation, works through our redemption, and brings all thing to fruition - the perichoresis.

3) By completing the beginning Versicle with the Glory be, we situate our need within the circle of this round dance. (Illustrated this with a Rublev Trinity Icon - the offering on the table is the sacrifice of prayer made by our desires, situated right in the safe enclosure of the Trinity).

3) We move on to the psalms which expands and focuses us on more nuanced human desires. Thereafter we situate these desires within the round dance of the Trinity.

4) We used the Traditional text (world without end) for the Glory Be so that when we sang it to plainsong, the clauses rises and falls in cycles of a dance movement that trails into a world without end.

I made that up; it works. [Smile]

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John H
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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Maybe it's just one of those things that is too jarring due to it's familiarity to be redone as inclusive-language, so omission is the inclusive response.

Or maybe they just find it repetitive, especially in offices with several psalms per canonical hour.

Or possibly both.

I'm not sure about the inclusive-language explanation. The GP remains intact in other parts of these office liturgies (e.g. at the beginning, or after the canticles). Though perhaps the repetition grates with those who can just about cope with the "exclusive" language for the Trinity in moderation, but find that repeated use in the psalms just rubs it in too much.

(Of course, one reason the "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer" language hasn't caught on is because it's - ahem - heretical. But I guess that's taking us towards Purgatory/Dead Horse territory.)

I wonder if it's simply that the compilers wished to introduce psalm prayers (which I generally like) and decided that having GP plus antiphon plus psalm prayer was just too ungainly. But dropping the GP is a shame: very handy during choral evensong, as my mind always wanders during the psalms ( [Hot and Hormonal] ) and the GP normally calls my attention back to the proceedings...

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quote:
Originally posted by John H:
(Of course, one reason the "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer" language hasn't caught on is because it's - ahem - heretical. But I guess that's taking us towards Purgatory/Dead Horse territory.)

Not a Dead Horse, as it doesn't meet the criteria.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
That was fast! Was it just out of the blue or do they know you well?

I e-mailed Mother Miriam, and she said they'd be glad to send me the music if I helped out with costs, suggesting $20. Gladly.
Sorry for breaking the comment flow, but I can't wait any longer. Have you received it yet, Scott?
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Ecce Quam Bonum
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quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
when the Office is publicly celebrated, does anyone rise (and bow) at the GP?

I always bow at the GP. Even if I am sitting, I will incline forward. (Though the latter may not be proper.)

Most of the people around here, even the ones who will do very little else in the way of liturgical gestures during the recitation of the Office, will bow--if standing--for the GP.

As far as actually rising for it, I think they pretty much have to be standing already before any bow will occur.

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"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
That was fast! Was it just out of the blue or do they know you well?

I e-mailed Mother Miriam, and she said they'd be glad to send me the music if I helped out with costs, suggesting $20. Gladly.
Sorry for breaking the comment flow, but I can't wait any longer. Have you received it yet, Scott?
Possibly...I'm on a business trip and will get home tomorrow and report back. I'm also awaiting an American Missal. [Smile] Glad it's payday tomorrow. [Eek!]
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Possibly...I'm on a business trip and will get home tomorrow and report back. I'm also awaiting an American Missal. [Smile] Glad it's payday tomorrow. [Eek!]

Speaking of payday, do you know how much the new Mundelein Psalter is going to set us back?
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Possibly...I'm on a business trip and will get home tomorrow and report back. I'm also awaiting an American Missal. [Smile] Glad it's payday tomorrow. [Eek!]

Speaking of payday, do you know how much the new Mundelein Psalter is going to set us back?
I believe it's 50 clams, but I think I got in on the early-order price of $40. Either way, I don't think we'll be seeing one in every pew in most parishes. Hope it really catches on and that it can be published in a more economical version.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question, I fear.

Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.

I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.

Well, St. Bert, it appears conflicting things are also in the present as well. It seems like "traditional" breviaries expect the GP after every Psalm, while the more "modern" (post-Vat 2 era) ones do not. That means the decision is entirely up to you, although you could always go with the "When in doubt, sing it out" plan!

quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I believe it's 50 clams, but I think I got in on the early-order price of $40. Either way, I don't think we'll be seeing one in every pew in most parishes. Hope it really catches on and that it can be published in a more economical version.

Unfortunately for my wallet, $50 has begun to seem rather economical in the world of breviaryitis. I don't even know why I keep buying them. I have plenty to keep me from boredom, but each new one is so intriguing. Even though I can keep to one for a liturgical season, it usually doesn't last much longer than that.
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Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I could see inclusivity being at least part of the reason in a book specializing in inclusive language. The whole Creator/Redeemer/Sanctifier thing seems to be aging poorly. I have had some folks in a parish setting ask to tone down the number of Gloria Patri's for inclusivity sake. As the only required spots (as near as I can tell) in the ECUSA '79 service are at the precis and at the end of the psalmody, that's what we do.

"God Unbegotten, God Begotten, God Proceeding" is formally orthodox, if a little dry. Still, my preference is to stick with the Prayer Book.

--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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