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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
"God Unbegotten, God Begotten, God Proceeding" is formally orthodox, if a little dry. Still, my preference is to stick with the Prayer Book.
I'm not sure it's even orthodox when put in that context. Those technical theological terms are there to ensure a proper understanding of the revealed terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To use them instead of the revealed terms obscures the truth of the "three Persons" and gets us back towards a picture of one Person behaving in three different ways.
Generally I'm in favour of inclusive language, but not when it comes to God himself. To take the terms in which he has chosen to reveal himself and say "We can do better than that" strikes me as rather impertinent. Plus, on an aesthetic level (this being Ecclesiantics 'n'all), it tends to sound so clunky ("God's self", etc.), something which is then exacerbated by repetition in the context of the daily offices (see how deftly I bring this back to the actual topic! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
[ 29. March 2007, 10:24: Message edited by: John H ]
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
Posts: 423 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
I've been waiting for someone to start using, "Glory to the First Person of the Trinity, and to the Second Person of the Trinity, and to the Holy Third Person of the Trinity, as it was. . ."
On a more serious note, I've notices that among RCs, only those who pray the Liturgy of the Hours use the "modern" version (and then, only when doing the Hours): quote:
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amen
but everyone else says the "traditional": quote:
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
This has always struck me as one of the more pointless modernizations of language. The new version is not significantly more modern than the old one.
I suspect that future translations of the Hours might revert to the old form, since the new form has never really caught on among the plebs.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
I do prefer the phrase "world without end" - so much more evocative than "now and forever", in the same way "yn oes oesoedd" is better than "yn awr ac hyd byth".
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Re: First person, second person,....all I can think of is Abbot and Costello's Who's on First.
I've recently switched our gang from the modrun version to the traditional (also modern) version. Either no one noticed or they appreciated it. I've heard nothing about it from anyone.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I've been waiting for someone to start using, "Glory to the First Person of the Trinity, and to the Second Person of the Trinity, and to the Holy Third Person of the Trinity, as it was. . ."
On a more serious note, I've notices that among RCs, only those who pray the Liturgy of the Hours use the "modern" version (and then, only when doing the Hours): quote:
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amen
but everyone else says the "traditional": quote:
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
This has always struck me as one of the more pointless modernizations of language. The new version is not significantly more modern than the old one.
I suspect that future translations of the Hours might revert to the old form, since the new form has never really caught on among the plebs.
I've a feeling the UK edition of the LOTH does use the "glory be ... world without end" version.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
Posts: 423 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I've a feeling the UK edition of the LOTH does use the "glory be ... world without end" version.
Saint Meinrad Archabbey and some other places that use or have used the Grail Psalter have some different versions that work better with Grail-appropriate psalm tones like the Jelly Roll or Saint Meinrad tones. Here's what they say at the Archabbey:
Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit: as always before, so now and evermore. Amen.
The "so now..." sounds a little German-y to me, which would make sense, as the Archabbey was started by German-speaking Swiss monks. But maybe it just works best with the tones and the Grail's style.
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RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I've a feeling the UK edition of the LOTH does use the "glory be ... world without end" version.
It does.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Still waiting for the MDR Noted. Received a postcard yesterday, though, from Liturgy Training Publications, which announced: "Your order for The Mundelein Psalter will be shipped in mid-May, 2007. We apologize for the delay and appreciate your understanding. Thank you for your order!" ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
[ 30. March 2007, 20:19: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Can anyone tell me what table of lessons is used in the online 1662 BCP office hosted by the C of E at the following page:
http://tinyurl.com/29mowv
Is it the "Order for the Eucharist and MP and EP 2007" published by SCM/Canterbury?
I've sent your question to Mr Kershaw whose name is attached to that site, and I shall report back. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Simon Kershaw was away for a while but has responded to your question, lukacs:
quote:
The calendar used is largely the modern Common Worship daily lectionary,
the same as is provided for the modern language services except for a
few days where that lectionary specifically provides a different reading
or psalm for use with BCP-1662 services.
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Scott--thank you very much.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ignatius' Acolyte
Shipmate
# 12426
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Posted
I'd like to know if anyone celebrates a special kind of solemn Evensong for Easter, much like the Great Paschal Vespers in the Galley book. Is there an equivalent service in Daily Prayer of the Church?
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Be a blessing.
Posts: 427 | From: Quezon City, the Philippines | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I'd like to know if anyone celebrates a special kind of solemn Evensong for Easter, much like the Great Paschal Vespers in the Galley book. Is there an equivalent service in Daily Prayer of the Church?
A fellow parishioner who was a parish organist for many years said he organized a Great Paschal Vespers in one of his parishes, and 200 people turned out.
Usually, though, such a service is seen as a lovely idea but one liturgy too many at the end of a long week (and the beginning of another, if you have daily services for Easter Week).
GPV can be done on the Sunday after Easter (Low Sunday) as well, and that may work better in many parishes.
Some very traditional RC and Anglo-Catholic parishes will do a Solemn Evensong or Vespers on Easter Day. Ours might be expected to, but won't. Everyone's had enough of going to church for the week!
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J.S. Bach
Shipmate
# 9633
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Posted
This year, Washington National Cathedral is having Festal Evensong of Easter Day at 4 PM, their normal Evensong hour. I attended what they called Vespers of Easter Day a few years ago, and there were several hundred people there. Of course, the Cathedral is a tourist attraction (the building is mind-blowing, as one friend of mine puts it), and one has to acquire passes for the main Christmas Eve and Easter Day services.
Blessings,
JSB
Posts: 104 | From: Near Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ignatius' Acolyte
Shipmate
# 12426
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I'd like to know if anyone celebrates a special kind of solemn Evensong for Easter, much like the Great Paschal Vespers in the Galley book. Is there an equivalent service in Daily Prayer of the Church?
A fellow parishioner who was a parish organist for many years said he organized a Great Paschal Vespers in one of his parishes, and 200 people turned out.
Usually, though, such a service is seen as a lovely idea but one liturgy too many at the end of a long week (and the beginning of another, if you have daily services for Easter Week).
GPV can be done on the Sunday after Easter (Low Sunday) as well, and that may work better in many parishes.
Some very traditional RC and Anglo-Catholic parishes will do a Solemn Evensong or Vespers on Easter Day. Ours might be expected to, but won't. Everyone's had enough of going to church for the week!
I would guess that GPV may also work as a midweek service, right?
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Be a blessing.
Posts: 427 | From: Quezon City, the Philippines | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I would guess that GPV may also work as a midweek service, right?
Certainly it could be done on any evening in Easter Week. It might also be argued that any day in Paschaltide would be appropriate. But I think the intent is that it be done on Easter Day, in Easter Week, or on the first Sunday after Easter.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Ignatius' Acolyte
Shipmate
# 12426
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I would guess that GPV may also work as a midweek service, right?
Certainly it could be done on any evening in Easter Week. It might also be argued that any day in Paschaltide would be appropriate. But I think the intent is that it be done on Easter Day, in Easter Week, or on the first Sunday after Easter.
Thanks for the helpful advice! I'm thinking of organizing such a celebration sometime in Paschaltide.
[ 05. April 2007, 13:40: Message edited by: PostDenominational Catholic ]
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Be a blessing.
Posts: 427 | From: Quezon City, the Philippines | Registered: Mar 2007
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Just attended Morning Prayer for Good Friday in my local RC church. It was basically MP from the LOH but with the two readings from the Office of Readings.
I thought it worked rather well. If a lay person (not a priest) was accustomed to using MP from the LOH on a daily basis, would it be permissable to use the OOR lections in this way rather than just the short reading from MP?
I know one could say the full OOR followed immediately by MP, but this would be a little bit on the long side for most mornings.
What do other people think? Not sure what the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours says about this, but I've a feeling that some monastic communities may do something like this, eg the abbey at Collegeville in the USA.
DIVINE OFFICE
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Ignatius' Acolyte
Shipmate
# 12426
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Just attended Morning Prayer for Good Friday in my local RC church. It was basically MP from the LOH but with the two readings from the Office of Readings.
I thought it worked rather well. If a lay person (not a priest) was accustomed to using MP from the LOH on a daily basis, would it be permissable to use the OOR lections in this way rather than just the short reading from MP?
I know one could say the full OOR followed immediately by MP, but this would be a little bit on the long side for most mornings.
What do other people think? Not sure what the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours says about this, but I've a feeling that some monastic communities may do something like this, eg the abbey at Collegeville in the USA.
DIVINE OFFICE
The General Instruction does say that when the Liturgy of the Hours is celebrated in public, a longer reading may be chosen. I would generously interpret this rubric to say that readings from the Office of Readings can be used.
So for instance, if I recall the Office of Readings right, since it has two readings plus a patristic one, a possibility would be that at MP there would be one reading, and at EP the other reading, followed by the responsory, then the patristic reading with responsory, then Magnificat. Or the other way around.
Maybe other persons have comments on this? ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
[ 08. April 2007, 03:15: Message edited by: PostDenominational Catholic ]
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Be a blessing.
Posts: 427 | From: Quezon City, the Philippines | Registered: Mar 2007
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
A blessed Easter season to one and all!
I was confirmed at the Vigil this weekend, which all in all was a glorious and joyous occasion. A small part of the joy was receiving the Daily Office Book as one of my confirmation gifts, about which I was very excited.
Well, when I tried to use it, and couldn't find the rite I morning prayer canticles, I discovered that some 40 pages are missing! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) I think others have complained about Church Publishing publications here before, so I thought folks could commiserate.
This is mostly a gripe; I'm very grateful for the gift, and sorely disappointed that it's defective. I was also wondering if anyone has experience dealing with Church Publishing. I gave them a quick phone call, and the guy wanted to know the buyers name and other purchasing info. I don't want to get the giver involved. Shouldn't the be able simply to replace it? It's their product, brand new, and obviously defective. What does it matter who bought it?
Grumble, grumble. Thanks for listening.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Well, when I tried to use it, and couldn't find the rite I morning prayer canticles, I discovered that some 40 pages are missing! I think others have complained about Church Publishing publications here before, so I thought folks could commiserate.
Be persistent with Church Publishing, as their quality standards (or those of their printers) are notoriously deficient. Defective is defective; they shouldn't care who bought the book. I complained loudly about a whole signature of pages that fell out of my copy of the St Helena Breviary Personal Edition within a month, and they sent me a new copy (which may well have the same defect, but I haven't used it).
Then there are the typos in the BCP and RSV texts...one would think they'd have used electronic files for these, but apparently they rekeyed them, introducing typos. I've complained about those, too, but of course, those are less fixable than missing pages or bad binding.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
The pages missing from The Daily Office Book reminds me of the time about fifteen or more years ago when I bought a copy of the single-volume edition of the complete Office of Readings for the entire year which was then published by the Daughters of St Paul.
It was only when I was using it some months later that I discovered about 40 pages were missing from my copy. By then, I had lost the receipt and it was too late to change it.
I think I eventually gave it to the library of my local church, although I wrote a note on the front page warning users about the missing pages.
When I bought a second-hand copy of the Collegeville Book of Prayer a couple of years ago, a couple of pages containing one of the patristic readings had been torn out, so I just scanned the relevant reading from The Divine Office and taped that in instead.
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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J.S. Bach
Shipmate
# 9633
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Posted
Happy Easter!
Have any of you been to New Camaldoli Hermitage's Incarnation Monastery in Berkeley, California? Work may bring me to the San Francisco Bay area, and I might try to attend Vespers at the monastery. I'm thinking it would be wonderful to experience their office first-hand.
Thanks, and God bless,
JSB
Posts: 104 | From: Near Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Well, The Monastic Diurnal Noted, Revised Edition: A Companion Volume to the Monastic Diurnal Revised, edited by Community of St Mary, Eastern Province, Greenwich, New York, has arrived in a draft edition, and it's groovy. Half-size pages in a neat white small three-ring binder. They've taken their pen-and-ink notation and put it in Meinrad chant font. It's 372 pages and gives music for the Little Hours, Vespers, and Compline of the MDR throughout the year. They say rather than sing Matins and Lauds, so there's no music for that.
I chanted through Solemn (fully sung) Vespers for Easter Tuesday with relish. Found one typo in the chant (the first half of the Solemn Tone VII) and saw a couple of other things they'll probably fix, but it's a good piece of work and shouldn't take much to refine it now that it's in computer files. They've added some cross-references that make it easier to remember where to go for the hymn tune of the season.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone know if the Latin LOTH cited in the following link is available for lay purchase? (Scott, do you own this one?)
http://www.monksonline.org/liturgy.html
If they use the old Breviarium Monasticum, yes, I own that, and got it via eBay from a convent that was auctioning off many copies some years back. But it may be that they've developed their own edition conformed to their use. Clues to this seem to be the term Vigils rather than Matins and Liturgy of the Hours rather than Divine Office. Or maybe they use the current Latin Liturgia Horarum? Would be worth asking them...let us know what you find out!
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone know if the Latin LOTH cited in the following link is available for lay purchase? (Scott, do you own this one?)
http://www.monksonline.org/liturgy.html
From this photo, it looks like they use giant antiphonaries, perhaps something akin to the Antiphonale Monasticum, which is available from GIA. What they use may be a special Cistercian edition of that Antiphonale but quite similar.
Unless that's a Graduale we're seeing. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
I'll drop them a line. Still no word from the All Saints Sisters.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Actually, I just got e-mails from not one but two friends telling me that the Spring Bank monks use an edition of the Breviarium Cisterciense, accommodated to the new calendar and lectionary, with some English redactions provided by one of their oblates. There is not a volume available for personal use at this time (sorry, Scott).
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Well, The Monastic Diurnal Noted, Revised Edition: A Companion Volume to the Monastic Diurnal Revised, edited by Community of St Mary, Eastern Province, Greenwich, New York, has arrived in a draft edition, and it's groovy.
Thanks for the review! It's hard to avoid purchasing something described as groovy!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Apologies for the very long post. My Monastic Diurnal Revised and MDR Noted came in just the other day. I agree with Scott's comments that the chant volume is groovy - I am also quite impressed with the Monastic Diurnal Revised itself.
I do have to say that the lack of music for matins is a serious downer for me, personally. Matins in this book takes the place of both matins and lauds from the more traditional office, so it's a big chunk of the prayer day. I understand it is not a sung office in many communities.
Other comments about the MDR or MDRN:
1. The MDR office is matins, terce, sext, vespers and compline. Actually, there is only 1 "little hour" on Saturday and Sunday. There is no office of None or Prime, and this matins is a matins/lauds combo, however of a single nocturn. The offices seem to follow the format of the ECUSA '79 office closely, but have gregorian antiphons for the psalms and canticles, incl. Venite. For example, Vespers starts with the Phos Hilaron, then psalmody, a single lesson, Mag and closing; Compline is almost exactly that of the '79, incl. the Nunc Dimittis which was not in the old Monastic Diurnal.
2. The psalms are arranged so that the day hours run through their cycle weekly and the office of matins runs through its psalms on a monthly cycle. The psalms for the non-matins are very similar to the original Rule.
3. The psalter is essentially the BCP '79, with some modifications (e.g. 'Blessed' rather than 'Happy' TBTG)
4. Mostly takes account of the three year lectionary. In ordinary time there are different Mag antiphons for each year. Not sure how close these correspond to the BCP lectionary and whether things will need to change with the adoption of the RCL. There seems to be only one selection for a given day in Advent, Lent, and Eastertide, with some exceptions on certain Sundays.
5. There are a number of seasonal and sanctoral propers, and a fair number of commons (Apostles in/out of PT, Martyrs, Holy Men, Holy Women, BVM, Dedication of a church; Holy Men/Women contain options for a Doctor of the Church). The printed kalendar has a number of feasts of various ranks, but is spare enough so that ferias do indeed exist.
6. For the sung hours (everything but matins), the psalm texts provided in the MDR are pointed to allow singing the psalm with any tone using a clever system of several slashes and underlines. It is very readable and I can imagine it becoming completely natural with a modest amount of practice. This really is _very_ cool.
7. Good use is made of a number of those other canticles from the Hymnal '82. A number of the old breviary hymns remain; a few new ones from the Hymnal '82 are also used.
8. The rules of occurrence and concurrence are not well described in my view, even though the system is the simplified First, Second and Third class feast idea from the post-1962 Roman breviary, laid over the few rules in the prayer book for Feasts of Our Lord.
9. Readings are provided for at every office; two at matins and one each at the others. I will probably use the BCP lectionary with two lessons at matins and one at vespers; don't know what the reading slots at the little hours are for. I may read the martyrology (wrong calendar, I guess) at one little hour and a section of the Rule of Benedict at the other. Or maybe I'll just skip them.
All in all, I think this breviary is an excellent way to liven up the Prayerbook Office, especially for those of us who love to sing the old chant antiphons. The lack of matins music is a bummer, however, especially as the service is somewhat 'morning prayer-ish' and is the longest office of the day.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
3. The psalter is essentially the BCP '79, with some modifications (e.g. 'Blessed' rather than 'Happy' TBTG)
TBTG?
quote:
8. The rules of occurrence and concurrence are not well described in my view, even though the system is the simplified First, Second and Third class feast idea from the post-1962 Roman breviary, laid over the few rules in the prayer book for Feasts of Our Lord.
Do you need the rules? Could you just use the saints etc. days as noted on the common Kalendar that I see everywhere (the one with colored days, and notes on the back of each month's calendar page)? Or is this from the point of view of having the volume be completely explained within itself? (Or something else...?)
[ 12. April 2007, 03:20: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
TBTG?
Thanks be to God.
quote:
Do you need the rules? Could you just use the saints etc. days as noted on the common Kalendar that I see everywhere (the one with colored days, and notes on the back of each month's calendar page)? Or is this from the point of view of having the volume be completely explained within itself? (Or something else...?)
Printed Kalendars, such as the Churchman's Ordo, almost suffice in that they probably handle the problem of occurrence - i.e. when two feasts fall on the same day. For example, if a feast falls on a Sunday in Lent, which office do you do - like this year when Annunciation fell on a Sunday. The Churchman's Ordo just transferred that feast to Monday, which is what the BCP rubric says should happen.
However, in this book, unlike the BCP office, there is the concept of 1st and 2nd Vespers. That is, for high ranked feasts, Vespers the night before starts the feast and Vespers of the day more or less ends it. But what if the day before is _also_ a feast or an important Sunday? Do you do 1st vespers of the important feast or the regular (or 2nd) vespers of the night before.
That's the problem of concurrence - two feasts overlapping, if you will. Printed Kalendars will just list them on two adjacent days and not resolve the overlap - especially as this is not something that happens in the pure BCP office.
Possible solutions to concurrence can involve transferring one feast, celebrating one feast and 'commemorating' the other (special prayer at the end, possibly with an antiphon), or just ignoring one of them.
Possible solutions to occurrence are similar: doing the "first half" of vespers for the first feast and the second half of vespers for the second feast, ignoring one or the other feast at that vespers slot, or celebrating the office of one of the feasts and commemorating the other.
Printed kalendars for the BCP wouldn't resolve this. You need some sort of ranking scheme of feasts and rules for precedence. The BCP has some fairly limited rules in the front of the book concerning which Feasts of our Lord are transferrable, which displace a Sunday should they fall on a Sunday, etc. But not to this level of detail.
The community of Saint Mary's does publish an Ordo Kalendar to go with this breviary every year; it is also available at their web site here.
[Code; replaced second 'occurrence' with 'concurrence']
[ 12. April 2007, 03:49: Message edited by: Choirboy ]
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Man - my post is a wreck. Too late for me, I guess.
This link may be more clear.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Ack! Triple post.
Example of occurrence in the St. Mary's Ordo Kalendar for this month, as linked to in my longish post above.
Look at the kalendar for April and then look at the 21st - Feast of St. Anselm. The Kalendar tells me he was a Bishop and Doctor of the Church, natch, and then gives the rank of the feast (3rd class), and the reference page in the book.
However, the 22nd is a Sunday, and a special one being a Sunday in Paschaltide. That has a first vespers which conflicts (occurrence) with what would be the Vespers for St. Anselm on the night of the 21st. The kalendar tells us to celebrate 1st Vespers of the Sunday, with no commemoration of Anselm.
The rules for making that decision rather than commemorating Anselm, or one of the other solutions noted above, require some explaining and particular rankings of the feasts, Sundays and possibly some ferias (traditionally those in Lent or Advent at least).
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Autenrieth Road
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I see. Thanks, Choirboy. For the record, your first post seemed quite clear, and the link in your second post surprised me in that concurrence/occurrence turn out to have the opposite meanings of what I would have guessed (that is, they're swapped from what I would expect).
When you're commemorating various days, do you in some way arrange to catch up with the regular lectionary readings if they're proceeding sequentially, so that you don't miss out a chunk? Or do you just wholesale miss them out for the commemorative readings?
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Truth
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Choirboy
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I understand what you mean about those terms. I'm always getting them backwards. In fact, I started to screw them up in that long post, and I think I may have gotten the solutions to the problems cross assigned to the terms! You'd possibly transfer a feast if it occurred on the same day as another - that's not a solution for concurrence!
You ask a really good question about the readings. In general, when something gets omitted due to scheduling conflicts, it doesn't usually reappear later. These things happen in a complicated calendar and you'll get it next time around in the case of 'accidental' occurence, i.e. two feasts coinciding like Annunciation and one of the Lenten Sundays this year.
In the old office, all the readings were at Matins, so there was no problem with concurrence, but occurrence was an issue. One or the other feast would get left out, or sometimes just the last lesson was modified to account for the saint. This might be replacing a patristics lesson with a hagiography, so it didn't necessarily displace scripture.
However, with regard to the MDR lessons, I think I've screwed up. The MDR supplies 'short readings' or chapters [2-3 verses of Scripture each] in an appendix. The following text is in the introduction:
quote:
Suggested short readings have been provided for Matins and Compline. Readings for the other Offices and for feasts may be taken from the Prayer Book lectionary or other sources. A few general short readings have been provided in the Appendix and some are suggested in the Proper."
So possibly the 3 Prayerbook lessons go at Terce, Sext and Vespers. If so, that is very, very odd. It also means that concurrence becomes an issue for the readings at Vespers, as you point out.
I haven't noticed this so far because the Octave week of Easter doesn't allow anything to interfere with each of the days in the Octave. So my plan of readings at Matins and Vespers worked.
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Divine Office
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I used Vespers from the MDR on some days during Lent. For the readings I used the short chapter from Evening Prayer from the American edition of the RC LOH.
I think this reflects modern Benedictine usage; if my understanding of the Latin is correct, the latest edition of the Antiphonale Monasticum published by the Abbey of Solesmes allows the reading at Vespers to be taken either from the secular Liturgia Horarum or from an approved lectionary.
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Choirboy
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One of the attractions for me for the MDR was that I was going to use the BCP daily lectionary. I've been using the MD reprinted by Lancelot Andrewes Press, which I do love. But not being on the same calendar as my parish was somewhat dissonant - giving up alleluia for the gesimas at home and singing it for another couple of weeks at church until Ash Wednesday, for example.
Also, I had no source for Matins, although LA Press will be putting one out. Thus I had no good spot for the readings from the lectionary.
If anyone has used the MDR with the BCP lectionary and could let me know how they do readings, I'd appreciate it.
[ 12. April 2007, 13:30: Message edited by: Choirboy ]
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
8. The rules of occurrence and concurrence are not well described in my view, even though the system is the simplified First, Second and Third class feast idea from the post-1962 Roman breviary, laid over the few rules in the prayer book for Feasts of Our Lord.
9. Readings are provided for at every office; two at matins and one each at the others. I will probably use the BCP lectionary with two lessons at matins and one at vespers; don't know what the reading slots at the little hours are for. I may read the martyrology (wrong calendar, I guess) at one little hour and a section of the Rule of Benedict at the other. Or maybe I'll just skip them.
All in all, I think this breviary is an excellent way to liven up the Prayerbook Office, especially for those of us who love to sing the old chant antiphons. The lack of matins music is a bummer, however, especially as the service is somewhat 'morning prayer-ish' and is the longest office of the day.
Thanks for your excellent and detailed review of the MDR, my favorite office book. To the points above:
Any occurrence/concurrence questions should be cleared up by the online MDR Ordo.
As for readings, I believe the intent is that Matins[/Lauds] contain only the short lessons provided in the back of the MDR by season (or sometimes a reference is given, such as on Easter Day, and these are supposed to be used all this week). There's one short OT lesson after the Matins psalms and then a short NT lesson after the Lauds psalms.
Then the three BCP-lectionary lessons are used (on weekdays) at Terce, Sext, and Vespers. On weekends, the first of the three BCP lessons falls away, as there's no Terce.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
If anyone has used the MDR with the BCP lectionary and could let me know how they do readings, I'd appreciate it.
I use the BCP readings in order at Terce (OT), Sext (Epistle or other NT), and Vespers (Gospel). I believe this is how the CSM sisters do it. At Matins, I rotate through the short lessons given at the back of the MDR (those showing the texts and those with references only) for the appropriate season. This week, though, specific references are given in the Easter Day office.
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Autenrieth Road
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Then the three BCP-lectionary lessons are used (on weekdays) at Terce, Sext, and Vespers. On weekends, the first of the three BCP lessons falls away, as there's no Terce.
Couldn't you read two lessons at Sext or Vespers? Or would that violate some principle of Daily Office reading? It seems a pity to miss out Saturday, which is generally in course readings with the rest of the week.
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Truth
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Then the three BCP-lectionary lessons are used (on weekdays) at Terce, Sext, and Vespers. On weekends, the first of the three BCP lessons falls away, as there's no Terce.
Couldn't you read two lessons at Sext or Vespers? Or would that violate some principle of Daily Office reading? It seems a pity to miss out Saturday, which is generally in course readings with the rest of the week.
You certainly could do that, and I think I have on occasion. Doesn't violate any principles if you're praying the office alone, or with some friends who agree to do it that way. I think it even falls within BCP rubrics; at worst, the BCP might require a second canticle if you read a second lesson, and if you're OK with jumping the gun on the Nunc dimittis (as the BCP does, baldly), then no worries.
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Autenrieth Road
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Now I'm confused by your mixing of references to BCP rubrics, and your previous post 2 posts up about using the MDR. I think I missed it -- is the MDR essentially the BCP services, but expanded? So the rubrics would be shared? (I mean the 1979 ECUSA BCP, is that the same as you meant?)
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Truth
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Choirboy
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Thanks, Scott, for the help with the readings.
The ordo does clear up which office to celebrate, but it would be nice to know the principles better since one may wish to add different feasts, as the rubrics mention.
Autenrieth Road's question then is very prescient; what happens with the readings at 1st Vespers when there is concurrence? I generally have done the gospel in the evening but seems odd to leave it out.
Autenrieth Road, all BCP services from 1549 on are essentially simplified (with some modification) from the old office. The Venite in BCP matins is there because it was part of matins, and the Mag is part of Evensong for the same reason. The major differences are the ommission of some material from the old offices, the reduction in the number of psalms, and the addition of lessons to Evensong/Vespers. For the full office, the little hours during the day and compline were not carried forward in the BCP (until ECUSA '79 as far as I know).
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
The ordo does clear up which office to celebrate, but it would be nice to know the principles better since one may wish to add different feasts, as the rubrics mention.
Autenrieth Road's question then is very prescient; what happens with the readings at 1st Vespers when there is concurrence? I generally have done the gospel in the evening but seems odd to leave it out.
According to Howard Galley, concurrence is when [II Vespers] of one feast falls on the same day as [I Vespers] of another feast. MDR's rubric on that is on p. xxi: "If two feasts overlap at Vespers, the greater is observed and the lesser commemorated. II Vespers ordinarily takes precedence over I Vespers. If a feast falls on a Saturday before a Sunday of equal rank, Vespers is of the feast with a commemoration of Sunday. If the feast on Saturday is of our Lord, there is no commemoration. If a First Class feast falls on a Monday, Vespers on Sunday is II Vespers of Sunday with a commemoration of Monday's feast. If, however, the feast on Monday is privileged and the Sunday is not, I Vespers of the feast is used."
An example would be nice: June 24, 2007, we have concurrence of II Vespers of Sunday with I Vespers of the Nativity of St John the Baptist, both days of First Class. Ordo says that Vespers is of Sunday (the II Vespers thus takes precedence) with no commemoration of the feast (as Sunday is a Feast of our Lord). So the observance of the feast begins at Matins on Monday. Luke 1:5-23 for I Vespers of the feast is missed out.
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Ignatius' Acolyte
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
The ordo does clear up which office to celebrate, but it would be nice to know the principles better since one may wish to add different feasts, as the rubrics mention.
Autenrieth Road's question then is very prescient; what happens with the readings at 1st Vespers when there is concurrence? I generally have done the gospel in the evening but seems odd to leave it out.
According to Howard Galley, concurrence is when [II Vespers] of one feast falls on the same day as [I Vespers] of another feast. MDR's rubric on that is on p. xxi: "If two feasts overlap at Vespers, the greater is observed and the lesser commemorated. II Vespers ordinarily takes precedence over I Vespers. If a feast falls on a Saturday before a Sunday of equal rank, Vespers is of the feast with a commemoration of Sunday. If the feast on Saturday is of our Lord, there is no commemoration. If a First Class feast falls on a Monday, Vespers on Sunday is II Vespers of Sunday with a commemoration of Monday's feast. If, however, the feast on Monday is privileged and the Sunday is not, I Vespers of the feast is used."
An example would be nice: June 24, 2007, we have concurrence of II Vespers of Sunday with I Vespers of the Nativity of St John the Baptist, both days of First Class. Ordo says that Vespers is of Sunday (the II Vespers thus takes precedence) with no commemoration of the feast (as Sunday is a Feast of our Lord). So the observance of the feast begins at Matins on Monday. Luke 1:5-23 for I Vespers of the feast is missed out.
However, I must note one departure I witnessed years back--the Benedictine monastic community in Manila celebrated I Vespers for John the Baptist on Sunday evening. Then again, they were in Manila, and John the Baptist is the patron saint of Manila.
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Be a blessing.
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Choirboy
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Thanks Scott...this system is slowly sinking into my head. Shouldn't be that tough, but I guess I'm missing the equivalent of the two little tables on occurrence and concurrence from the old breviaries.
It took me ages to figure out how the class of feasts are designated in the MDR, as the bit for each feast does not say 'of the First Class' or something. But I'm guessing that the Calendar makes that clear - caps and bold for first class, bold for 2nd class, and plain typeface for third class. If there is a rubric to this effect in the book, I've missed it, although there is much discussion of First/Second/Third class feasts.
That and the statement that all Sundays are First Class, together with the BCP rules for what can take precedence over a normal Sunday [and what Sundays are never messed with] pretty much sums it up.
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Autenrieth Road
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
MDR's rubric on that is on p. xxi: "If two feasts overlap at Vespers, the greater is observed and the lesser commemorated[....]"
What is observing and what is commemorating?
[ 13. April 2007, 14:25: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
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Choirboy
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Observing one feast rather than the other means that you follow whatever rubrics and propers for the feast you are celebrating. Commemorations mean the other feast is remembered somewhere in the rite in some way. The most common way is at the end of matins and vespers; after you've done the major canticle [Benedictus/Mag] for the feast and its antiphon, there is a versicle and response, some prayers and the collect of the day. Following this, you sing the antiphon and the versicle for the other feast (but don't do the canticle) and its collect of the day. I may have gotten the order of versicle/antiphon mixed up - I often do. But that's the idea, anyway.
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DitzySpike
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I'm taking a break from the more standard forms on the Work of God and using Merton's Book of Hours . It stitches texts from Merton's writing into offices for the night, dawn, day, and dusk. Its a very small book but its depth seems (for now) quite inexhaustible: the texts themselves draw the pray-er into the silent gap between the words and into awe and contemplation. In particular, it works quite well in awakening the user from temporal time to God's transcendent present/eternity now, which is what the Liturgy of the Hours does.
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