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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

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Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
This evening, I have 1st Vespers of the Ascension (Solemnity) colliding with 2nd Vespers of the Invention of the Cross (Greater Feast).

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I can't find Invention of the Cross on any of my calendars for today.

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Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
From what I've been able to understand from The Monastic Diurnal, after the Collect of the Ascension, I ought to sing the Magnificat Antiphon from the Invention, followed by the Versicle & Response of the same, and then the Collect of the same.

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Originally posted by lukacs:
Speaking of which, Scott (or anyone else), do you know if the yahoo! group for the other Monastic Diurnal (the Farnsborough Abbey one) provides ordos?

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

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Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
From what I've been able to understand from The Monastic Diurnal, after the Collect of the Ascension, I ought to sing the Magnificat Antiphon from the Invention, followed by the Versicle & Response of the same, and then the Collect of the same.

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Yes, you have a Double II Class (Invention) concurring (overlapping II Vespers with I Vespers) with a Double I Class (Ascension). The Table of Concurrence's verdict is "All of the following, Commemoration of the preceding," which refers to what one does today at Vespers.

Today at Vespers, then, after the Collect of Ascension Day is said the Ant. on Magnificat belonging to the Office of the Invention of the Holy Cross. After the Ant. is said the Versicle after the Hymn of the Office of the Invention, and then is said the Collect of the Invention.

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Thank you! That's what I ended up doing but without the certainty I have now. I'm sure God coped.

We have a simpler system of classification than that employed by the Monastic Diurnal. We simply have Solemnities, Greater Feasts, Lesser Feasts, and Commemorations. I don't think I could manage if we used the MD system.

Yes, lukacs. That's the one!

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Originally posted by Martin L:
Got my Mundelein Psalter today. Going to play, erm, pray with it now. More to come.

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Good job you got it on Ascension Day. Enjoy praying it. UPS and the postal service seem to have abandoned me.

Still sitting on my folding chair on the side of the street...

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

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Originally posted by Martin L:
Got my Mundelein Psalter today. Going to play, erm, pray with it now. More to come.

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Good job you got it on Ascension Day. Enjoy praying it. UPS and the postal service seem to have abandoned me.

Still sitting on my folding chair on the side of the street...

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Originally posted by Martin L:
It actually arrived DHL, which is quite peculiar but I'll take what I can get. My suspicion is that you won't have to wait much beyond today. I only placed my order about a week ago, and it actually is farther to ship to me than to you.

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And sadness turns to joy! DHL have just visited me with a box containing the fatter-than-imagined Mundelein Psalter. I'm about to place the ribbon-markers now, always an enjoyable ritual, unless there are not enough markers. Looks like three here; should suffice, I think.

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Originally posted by Martin L:
Huzzah!

Minor tangent: When the bishop is scheduled to celebrate mass, as tonight, who leads the office immediately preceding?

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Originally posted by Forthview:
Scott, I hope you enjoyed the patronal Feast Day of your church.

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Thank you! I am looking forward to becoming unchained from my job in about an hour and boarding a train to church, where I shall serve as acolyte. I look forward to seeing lots of visitors there, too. And of course praising our ascended Lord.

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Originally posted by Martin L:
Got my Mundelein Psalter today. Going to play, erm, pray with it now. More to come.

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Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I look forward to praying with these books (once I learn to navigate them better) and hearing others' impressions.

Blessings,
JSB

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
- Firstly, is there a forum somewhere where the liturgy is actually discussed (preferably one where a range of backgrounds/levels of understanding are present). I assumed there might be an Anglican list somewhere, but a hunt around the various Anglican websites does not throw one up.

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- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?

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- If I want to incorporate alternate psalms into the office (say in CCP/CDP) is there a source of antiphonal prayers (assuming that is the right word) for each psalm somewhere?

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Any other tips you might like to add would be gratefully received

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
- Firstly, is there a forum somewhere where the liturgy is actually discussed (preferably one where a range of backgrounds/levels of understanding are present).

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You mean besides this one?

Seriously, feel free to start a thread on any topic you wish. Discussing liturgy is exactly what Ecclesiantics is for. And we do have a full range of backgrounds and levels of understanding here. Including a full range of curmudgeons of various sorts. No question is too basic or too obscure to elicit a response (well, OK, I can think of a few, but I've been here over seven years and I can still count the duds on one hand).

[ 19. May 2007, 23:06: Message edited by: jlg ]

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Originally posted by Martin L:
I was rather pleased (and surprised) that the Mundelein book uses the same canticle translations as the LBW canticles with which I am greatly familiar. It has made the transition smooth, along with the very decent Psalter and user-friendly chant notation.

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Originally posted by Martin L:
Beware the "bug" -- we like to call it "breviaryitis" around here. It is contagious, most of us here are already infected, and it will cause you to lose weight in the wallet region. It seems like there's always one more book that we all must have. Just when we think we're all caught up on purchases, somebody here mentions that a monastic order is coming out with an update, a revision, or a noted edition. Then it begins again!

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Originally posted by jlg:
Oy veh! How true this is. I've been resisting the Mundelein Psalter for Lo! these many pages, but I'm about to toddle off and gather up my credit card and find the link and add yet another book to the shelf which mockingly suggests that I actually pray the daily offices regularly.

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• Office of Readings - said, without hymn
• Morning Prayer - sung, omitting the opening versicle
• Daytime Prayer - said, without hymn
• Evening Prayer - sung in full
• Compline - sung in full

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I've found a misspelling or two (not terrible), but on p. 488, the pointing of Ps. 47 is wrong and doesn't fit the tone. The italics in the first half of each verse happen one syllable too late.

Overall, though, I've found the pointing more sensitive to the natural syllabic stress than the pointing in many other psalters. Whoever pointed Ps. 47 must have been thinking in a tone other than the one used.

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Originally posted by Martin L:

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- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?

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It's a matter of personal taste, really. <snip> Thus, it is not so strange to pray "The Lord be with you. And also with you."

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

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Originally posted by Martin L:

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- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?

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It's a matter of personal taste, really. <snip> Thus, it is not so strange to pray "The Lord be with you. And also with you."

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Not so fast, there, Martin L. Give me a chance to put my snooty boots on.

It is completely and utterly strange to dialogue with oneself during the office (or the mass, for that matter). If 'tis just thee and the angels at morning prayer, then that bit of dialogue ought to be left unsaid.

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It is completely and utterly strange to dialogue with oneself during the office (or the mass, for that matter). If 'tis just thee and the angels at morning prayer, then that bit of dialogue ought to be left unsaid.

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It is completely and utterly strange to dialogue with oneself during the office (or the mass, for that matter). If 'tis just thee and the angels at morning prayer, then that bit of dialogue ought to be left unsaid.

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I'm frequently the lone visible soul in church on Monday evenings unless a Mass follows (on BCP holy days). Most often I just omit the mutual salutation before the Lord's Prayer and simply finish the Creed and start the Lord's Prayer with nothing between. I do look around first to see whether someone may have floated in silently and needs to be saluted with The Lord be with you.

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I'm with Martin L in substituting "O Lord, Hear my prayer" in place of the salutation. To some degree, a bit of liturgical schizophrenia has never bothered me. I figure that I'm at least surrounded by the Great Cloud of Witnesses, so that doesn't make me too crazy, does it?

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"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"

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Originally posted by Martin L:

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

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Originally posted by Martin L:

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- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?

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It's a matter of personal taste, really. <snip> Thus, it is not so strange to pray "The Lord be with you. And also with you."

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Not so fast, there, Martin L. Give me a chance to put my snooty boots on.

It is completely and utterly strange to dialogue with oneself during the office (or the mass, for that matter). If 'tis just thee and the angels at morning prayer, then that bit of dialogue ought to be left unsaid.

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I was trying to be diplomatic and keep my personal comments to a minimum. Notice I did state "it is not so strange." (I allow for a blip on the strangeness factor meter.) Don't want to be too bold with a first-time poster, I say.

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Originally posted by shkhill:
Anyone care to recommend an appropriate breviary for me? I used to use the American BCP, but this Lent switched to Christian Prayer (we all need a change from time to time!), and I like it, for the most part. But the office of readings in the volume doesn't cut it, I'm pulling out my Plainsong Psalter for the psalms (gotta sing them, of course), and I've been struggling to sing the canticles as best I can, making it up as I go along.

So, is there one perfect book out there for me?

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Also, some breviaries make provision for this explicitly. For example, my 1964 "Hours of the Divine Office")*, preceding the collect gives either

V. Dominus vobiscum./The Lord be with you.
R. Et cum spiritu tuo./And with your spirit.

or

V. Domine, exaudi orationem meam./O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. Et clamor meus ad te veniat./And let my cry come to you.

the latter covering recitation by one alone.

MM

*did you ever find a copy by the way, Divine Office?

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Originally posted by Divine Office:
Manipled Mutineer wrote:-

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Also, some breviaries make provision for this explicitly. For example, my 1964 "Hours of the Divine Office")*, preceding the collect gives either

V. Dominus vobiscum./The Lord be with you.
R. Et cum spiritu tuo./And with your spirit.

or

V. Domine, exaudi orationem meam./O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. Et clamor meus ad te veniat./And let my cry come to you.

the latter covering recitation by one alone.

MM

*did you ever find a copy by the way, Divine Office?

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Do you mean the SSJE's Hours of Prayer from Lauds to Compline Inclusive, MM? If so, I got a 1961 edition last year.

I also obtained a 1950 edition of The Day Hours of the Church of England. Both are interestingly and charmingly Sarumesque!!!

DIVINE OFFICE

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Anyone care to recommend an appropriate breviary for me? I used to use the American BCP, but this Lent switched to Christian Prayer (we all need a change from time to time!), and I like it, for the most part. But the office of readings in the volume doesn't cut it, I'm pulling out my Plainsong Psalter for the psalms (gotta sing them, of course), and I've been struggling to sing the canticles as best I can, making it up as I go along.

So, is there one perfect book out there for me?

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Originally posted by Divine Office:
There is also Celebrating Common Prayer which I think is still in print. This is the "lay" version of the current office book used by the Anglican Society of St Francis, and was the inspiration for Common Worship; Daily Prayer, which is fairly similar.

Unlike CW;DP, the full version of CCP does have a lectionary included, and there are also short readings which can be used by travellers when a bible is not to hand. There were also several abridged versions of CCP, which had shorter forms of Morning and Evening Prayer. However, I'm not certain which of these various editions are currently in print.

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I think the one that's available from the online booksellers is a recent (2002) edition that serves as the bridge between CCP and Celebrating Daily Prayer, which has a black cover. That one I have.

Basically, the shorter pocket version of CCP which Divine Office alluded to was first published in 1995. It is definitely useful; when I was first praying the Office on a regular basis, I often used this book. It's really a good way to get started.

As for the CCP full version, the copy I got was a 2005 reprint, and the only place that carried it and that could ship it immediately was Church House Bookshop.

Speaking of which, I am putting up my copy of the very similar Daily Office SSF for sale. The material is almost the same as the CCP. PM me if you are interested. (I hope this is allowed.)

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Be a blessing.