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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
the Ænglican
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How could a breviary junkie *not* post here? ;-)

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Extol
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Ænglican, it has been my custom in private recitation to paste the hymn, V/R, and Ant. from the Breviary into the BCP office right before the Mag. or Ben., per the ENGLISH OFFICE. Would you consider that "illicit" (insofar as one can consider any private recitation of the BCP in such a light?)
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the Ænglican
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Well, the key question is "illicit accord to what?"

Certainly putting the hymn before the Gospel Canticle accurately reflects the order of the Roman Breviary for Lauds and Vespers. (Alternatively, I've seen it argued that the hymn in MP should be placed after the Invitatory since that's where the Matins hymn would have fallen rather than the Lauds hymn.)

I put the hymn where I did because I was trying to follow the '79 rubrics strictly--and there's already a licit place for the hymn.

I'd see the question coming down to the purpose. If it's a public office in ECUSA, then it's most correct to put the hymn at the spot for the hymn; if it's for private recitation--put it where you like it.

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The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere

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the Ænglican
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Here're some thoughts on "traditional" and another set of Office Hymn options: http://tinyurl.com/2pbl8v

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The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by the Ænglican:
(Alternatively, I've seen it argued that the hymn in MP should be placed after the Invitatory since that's where the Matins hymn would have fallen rather than the Lauds hymn.)

Interesting that Paul Hartzell's Prayer Book Office had a provision for doing two hymns: I think one was after the Invitatory and the other just before the Benedictus. Probably wanted to retain both the Matins and Lauds hymns.
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the Ænglican
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Interesting that Paul Hartzell's Prayer Book Office had a provision for doing two hymns: I think one was after the Invitatory and the other just before the Benedictus. Probably wanted to retain both the Matins and Lauds hymns.

Yup. That's always the trick when there's only one slot for an Office Hymn in the morning--Matins or Lauds? I think the answer is typically whichever can be located...

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The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere

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basso

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Welcome, Ænglican! Good to see you've boarded the ship!

b.

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PD
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Ritual Notes 11th edition suggests putting the Office hymn at Morning Prayer after the Venite, which is the position suggested in the Parson's Handbook too.

PD

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Extol
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The ENGLISH OFFICE only provides for a hymn after the Benedictus, for whatever that is worth. That tends to be my point of reference so I'm sticking with it.
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the Ænglican
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Thanks, Basso!

quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
The ENGLISH OFFICE only provides for a hymn after the Benedictus, for whatever that is worth. That tends to be my point of reference so I'm sticking with it.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to get me a copy of that at some point too... So, how do you decide between Matins or Lauds hymns?

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The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere

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Extol
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When I use the EO, I use whichever hymn is provided (the book only provides for MP and EP). Otherwise, my tendency has been to use the proper Lauds hymn, V/R, and Ant. from the ANGLICAN BREVIARY and stick it right before the Benedictus. Now, after this exchange, I am not sure whether to use the Matins or Lauds hymns. Maybe I'll check the ENGLISH OFFICE hymn selection against the Breviary hymns and see where the former draws from.
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PD
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As I recall, the English Office usually uses the Lauds hymn, and occasionally the Matins hymn. The choice of which seems somewhat random. The one area in which "The Prayer Book Office" (1963) scores over the English Office is that it gives the correct office hymns (albeit according to Sarum for the most part) for both after the Venite and before the Benedictus.

PD

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Divine Office
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My copy of The Mundelein Psalter has just arrived, and a most handsome volume it is which I can't wait to use.

I only ordered it on Sunday 20th May and it has arrived in the UK already from the USA, so that is fast work on the part of Liturgy Training Publications! I believe it arrived by DHL this afternoon when I was out.

Methinks a similar volume adapted to the UK translation of the LOH is badly needed on this side of the Atlantic. Failing that, perhaps some UK parishes and religious communities could utilise this book with the permission of the bishop. I think this is the best resource for singing the contemporary LOH which is currently on the market, and is handsomely printed and bound as befitting a liurgical book.

I am now eagerly awaiting the Camaldolese Office Book !

DIVINE OFFICE

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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I am now eagerly awaiting the Camaldolese Office Book !

I've received mine and have been exploring it. Another worthy office book! Personally, for completeness and ease of use, I'd give the edge to the Mundelein Psalter, but the Camaldolese one contributes a whole system of psalm pointing and a most interesting office structure; I'm intrigued by the "closing trope."

What would help with the Camaldolese psalter is a guide listing all the elements of Lauds, Vespers, and Compline in order as celebrated by the monks. Also, the cover-to-cover numbering system makes possible a quick-reference ordo listing items in order by number. Seems like a simple Web page would do that. Also would be good to indicate whether it's Week I or Week II and what the readings are.

Needless to say, I'll suggest such a guide to those who could most readily provide one.

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Divine Office
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Still eagerly awaiting The Camaldolese Office Book, although my credit card hasn't been debited yet.

I'm intrigued by the layout of the book; Scott, are the psalms grouped for daily Lauds, Vespers and Compline? Are there office hymns? Are there propers and commons of saints? How many pages does the book have? Is there a calendar? So many questions! I know patience is a Camaldolese virtue, but it's something in which I'm sadly lacking!

Also, as the book has no biblical lections included, what lectionary might be suitable for use with it? How about that of the ECUSA 1979 BCP, for example? Or the short lections from the standard RC LOH?

In the meantime, I am loving using Mundelein Psalter for Vespers. I plan to use it as my standard office book when praying Lauds, Vespers and Compline from the RC LOH at home in English, with my four-volume Catholic Book Publishing set for the Office of Readings and Prayer during the Day. I must just learn to read the notation so that I can chant the psalms and canticles!

DIVINE OFFICE

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Divine Office
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With reference to the earlier postings on the position of the office hymns at Mattins and Evensong, I have been trying out a little experimentation in this area when using the current RC Liturgy of the Hours for Vespers.

Having been inspired by the offices in the 1977 Monastic Breviary produced by ECUSA's Order of the Holy Cross, I have recently been using certain elements from that book to enhance Vespers from the LOH. I have therefore begun LOH Vespers with the canticle Phos Hilaron before the psalms rather than a hymn, and have inserted the appropriate office hymn taken from the MB in the traditional place between the responsory and the Magnificat.

Now that I am using The Mundelein Psalter for Vespers, I still begin the office with the Phos Hilaron, now taken from Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office, and transfer the office hymn from The Mundelein Psalter to immediately before the Magnificat.

All this means having to use at least two different books, but it does make one's prayer life more interesting!

DIVINE OFFICE

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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I'm intrigued by the layout of the book; Scott, are the psalms grouped for daily Lauds, Vespers and Compline?

The main section gives the psalms for Lauds and Vespers in Ordinary Time throughout the week, starting with I Vespers of Sunday. It's divided up by day, then by hour, then by Week I and Week II. Items are either clearly marked (Week I, Week II, or Weeks I and II) or are followed by a cross-reference (In Week II, go to #254). Each Lauds and Vespers also has a hymn, a Benedictus or Magnificat with antiphons and a closing trope. A seasonal section has alternatives for hymns, Gospel canticle antiphons, and closing tropes for the various seasons. There's a festal section for various feasts and an Office of the Dead.

quote:
Are there office hymns? Are there propers and commons of saints? How many pages does the book have? Is there a calendar? So many questions! I know patience is a Camaldolese virtue, but it's something in which I'm sadly lacking!
Office hymns, yes. And to quite traditional tunes (The antiphons to psalms and canticles, however, are more of the contemporary responsorial-psalm variety, but not bad, and they seem to come from the Italian version, Salterio Monastico). The propers of saints provide proper hymns only; the commons provide much other material. Page numbers aren't given (to prevent confusion with the item numbers), but there are 555 numbered items in all. The book is slightly thicker than the Adoremus Hymnal, half the thickness of the Mundelein Psalter (and about the same height).[/QB][/QUOTE]

quote:
Also, as the book has no biblical lections included, what lectionary might be suitable for use with it? How about that of the ECUSA 1979 BCP, for example? Or the short lections from the standard RC LOH?
Either would work fine, I'm sure. Perhaps at Lauds one could use the first two BCP lessons and then the third one at Vespers. Or one could simply use the ones from the RC LOH. Lessons are not indicated anywhere, but I would imagine they would be read after the psalms. It would be interesting to know what is used at New Camaldoli.

quote:
In the meantime, I am loving using Mundelein Psalter for Vespers. I plan to use it as my standard office book when praying Lauds, Vespers and Compline from the RC LOH at home in English, with my four-volume Catholic Book Publishing set for the Office of Readings and Prayer during the Day. I must just learn to read the notation so that I can chant the psalms and canticles!
You and I are using the MP and LOH in the same way, exactly. On the notation, if you can sing a scale on "doh-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-doh," know that the C-shaped clef at the beginning of a psalm tone surrounds the "doh" line, and the other notes of the scale can be determined from that. Find your starting note by singing "doh" and counting down from there to the first note, such as "doh-ti-la-sol." Also, if you learn the three psalm tones learned in any one office, you've learned them all, because they keep being used in the same order at both MP and EP of Weeks I and III, and another set in Weeks II and IV.
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DitzySpike
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Havent heard from the New Camaldoli Hermitage. [Frown] Maybe they don't do overseas.
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Oblatus
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I've been exploring my new copy of New Camaldoli's Lauds and Vespers this morning with great interest. It's wonderful to discover a new and rich resource for daily prayer. Part of what I like to do with a new office book is make a table of the psalter scheme. I've done one to account for all the psalms in the book and then added a row for Vigils psalms, guessing that they're the same as the ones in the Italian Camaldolese book, Salterio Monastico.

As is true with Benedictine Daily Prayer and with the new Mundelein Psalter, it would be very helpful to have a small one-page Web site with some basic helps on it: the outline of each liturgy for Vigils, Lauds, Vespers, and Compline; how to tell whether it's Week I or Week II; and eventually perhaps an ordo listing the item numbers in order for each office for a week.

These are my guesses for today (Saturday; guessing it's Week I):

Lauds: Opening Verse 1; Hymn 90; Psalms 315-316-317-320; Reading; Benedictus 107; Our Father 340ff; Closing Trope 109.

Vespers: Opening Verse 1; Hymn 115; Psalms 119-124-125; Magnificat 128; Our Father 340ff; Sprinkling Rite 352 or 353; Marian Antiphon 356

I'm guessing that the psalms in the Easter Lauds and Easter Vespers section are for Easter Day, Ascension Day, Eastertide Sundays, and the Day of Pentecost only and that during the week the psalms are from the two-week Psalter. Not sure on that, though. Perhaps the Easter Lauds and Easter Vespers psalms are used daily throughout Easter season? That doesn't seem likely.

Now I'm looking to see which psalms are missing, and I'm not seeing Pss. 1 and 2 for starters. Perhaps my guess that the Vigils psalms match the Italian ones isn't entirely accurate.

These are not complaints! They're the sort of issues I love to explore in a new office book. I'm a list- and table-maker from long ago; as a kid I made a table, in pencil, of every country in the world and selected facts about each one. I still benefit from that exercise! [Yipee]

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Havent heard from the New Camaldoli Hermitage. [Frown] Maybe they don't do overseas.

Seems as though they would contact you if they need more money for shipping, or more information.
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Divine Office
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quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Havent heard from the New Camaldoli Hermitage. Maybe they don't do overseas.

Neither have I yet; I live in the UK. I sent them an email to order the book on Monday, I think, and this is now Saturday. Of course, I might have just missed last week's mailing, or they might be mailing today. If I've heard nothing by the middle of next week I'll contact them again. It's just that I'm keen to get a copy of that book!

DIVINE OFFICE

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chris stiles
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quote:

- If I want to incorporate alternate psalms into the office (say in CCP/CDP) is there a source of antiphonal prayers (assuming that is the right word) for each psalm somewhere?


I noticed today that the full version of Celebrating Common Prayer actually has antiphons for each of the psalms [http://oremus.org/liturgy/ccp/24psalms.html].

I've got the pocket version of CCP (which is the office I started with) which doesn't contain all the psalms, and probably wouldn't find the full version useful.

Though I notice (and it shouldn't be suprising given it's heritage) that Common Worship: Daily Prayer also contains refrains and antiphons for each of the psalms http://www.cofe.anglican.org/worship/downloads/pdf/dppsalter574-803.pdf

So, I guess that will be my next purchase then ;-)

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Oblatus
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Chris Stiles, welcome to the best thread on Ecclesiantics! You'll find that I will never, ever try to dissuade anyone from purchasing a breviary, as that's one of the deep pleasures of life. Glad to hear you're about to procure another, and I share your preference for antiphons. [Votive]
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Ignatius' Acolyte
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Common Worship: Daily Prayer is a huge improvement indeed over the CCP full edition in that respect--the psalms all have antiphons. So I would suggest you buy that.

The ideal office book would have both antiphons and psalm prayers for those who like that sort of thing. The RC book has had this for a while now.

Anyway, Chris, welcome to the Ship!

[ 27. May 2007, 00:12: Message edited by: PostDenominational Catholic ]

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catholicedinburgh
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Afternoon all. My first ever post on the ship - what have I let myself in for!

A brief (very) background. I am an ex-Anglican religious who was received into the Roman Catholic church at Easter 2006. Having decided to pick up saying the office again, I found the Roman LOH a bit thin, particularly on the readings at MP and EP, although I understand the major lections occur at Vigils. I prefer something meatier at MP and EP(Lauds and Vespers if you prefer). I would also be using ot for Compline, my favourite office of the day with the three traditioal psalms.

I would also like something that has the Psalm tones supplied and the plainchant for the traditional office hymns.

I know I'm not looking for much [Smile] , anybody have any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks

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Triple Tiara

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Welcome catholicedinburgh!

The readings in LOH may of course be replaced if one chooses. I never do anymore as there are such chunky bits at the Office of Readings. However, the 3 volumes is a costly purchase, so praying the full LOH is not an example of the preferential option for the poor!

In earlier, more enthusiastic, days I used to read the Gospel from Mass at MP and the first lesson at EP.

Have you encountered the Dominicans in Edinburgh? They may be able to help with music. The Prior used to be here in London, and I know they used to sing the Office rather beautifully at Haverstock Hill. You may also look out for the book "Hymns for Prayer and Praise" published by the Canterbury Press, Norwich. Despite its unlikely sounding name, it is in fact a compilation of Office Hymns, produced by the Panel of Monastic Musicians, an ecumenical group of Anglican and RC religious.

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Divine Office
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catholicedinburgh wrote:-

quote:
Afternoon all. My first ever post on the ship - what have I let myself in for!

A brief (very) background. I am an ex-Anglican religious who was received into the Roman Catholic church at Easter 2006. Having decided to pick up saying the office again, I found the Roman LOH a bit thin, particularly on the readings at MP and EP, although I understand the major lections occur at Vigils. I prefer something meatier at MP and EP(Lauds and Vespers if you prefer). I would also be using ot for Compline, my favourite office of the day with the three traditioal psalms.

I would also like something that has the Psalm tones supplied and the plainchant for the traditional office hymns.

I know I'm not looking for much , anybody have any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks

Good to have you on board, catholicedinburgh.

If you're looking for something with the psalm tones for the LOH, it would be hard to better the
recently-published Mundelein Psalter, which has the psalm tones as well as the plainchant for the traditional office hymns for MP, EP and Compline each day and for the proper of saints. The psalm antiphons and biblical readings are a slightly different translation to that used in the UK, as the Mundelein Psalter is based on the version of the LOH used in the USA, but that is a minor matter.

The book is published in the USA by Liturgy Training Publications, but they ship it very quickly to the UK. I ordered mine online on a Sunday evening, and it arrived the following Thursday afternoon.

As far as the biblical lections are concerned, one option might be to use longer lessons for MP and EP than those actually printed; indeed, I think the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours actually suggests this. The C of E's Common Worship daily lectionary might be useful for this purpose, or perhaps that of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church of the USA.

Some years ago I stayed with an RC religious community who sang MP and EP from the standard LOH, but used longer lessons taken from the lectionary of the then Alternative Service Book of the C of E.

I hope these suggestions are of some help.

regards DIVINE OFFFICE

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Divine Office
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Hello again, catholicedinburgh.

As Triple Tiara has just suggested, Hymns for Prayer and Praise is also well worth looking at as a comprehensive source of office hymns; a plainsong and a conventional melody is given for each.

One thing about HPP is that some of the hymns are modern compositions rather than traditional texts; however, they are still very suitable for use with sung MP and EP.

Another possibility would be to obtain a copy of the current Liber Hymnarius published by the Abbey of Solesmes, which can also be purchased online at their website. This contains the Latin texts and plainsong chants for all the current office hymns used in the LOH.

DIVINE OFFICE

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catholicedinburgh
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Evening Triple Tiara, Divine Office

Thanks for your replies and suggestions, I am sorely tempted by the Mundelein Psalter and think I may well purchase this. Seems to be just what I am looking for.

I am familiar with HPP as it was the Office Hymn book for the community of which I was a member. It is good but has some slight variants on the tunes in EH which can catch you unawares - particularly at MP when ones faculties are still waking up!

Must check the bank balance and then find a friend with a credit card as I refuse to have such a thing. Mundelein Psalter here I come.

In the interim will pad out with the mass readings as you suggest Triple Tiara.

BTW and nothing to do with this thread - sorry, having a love of liturgy and that done well, does anyone local know if a tridentine mass is celebrated in Edinburgh apart form SPX?

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PD
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If my memory serves me correctly I believe there is a fairly new FSSP Mass centre serving the Indult Mass Community in Edinburgh. I'll have a trawl on the net and see if I can find it.

PD

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PD
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According to Una Voce Scotland the Edinburgh Indult Mass is celebrated Sundays at 11.30am at:

St Andrew's Church
77 Belford Road
Ravelston
Edinburgh

As I thought, it is staffed by FSSP.

PD

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Oblatus
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Felt my blood pressure rising this morning as I prayed Morning Prayer from the Mundelein Psalter and discovered yet another major error: the wrong antiphon on Benedictus. It's possibly the one for Corpus Christi instead of Pentecost. [Mad]

How do publishers get away with failing to proofread, or in the Mundelein Psalter's case, failing to spell-check the introduction? Obviously they didn't have anyone sing through the book, because surely someone would have thought, as I did, that the Pentecost Benedictus antiphon didn't seem to have much to do with Pentecost.

Frustrating to see such error-ridden books keep appearing. Take the time to get them right! [brick wall]

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Divine Office
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quote:
Felt my blood pressure rising this morning as I prayed Morning Prayer from the Mundelein Psalter and discovered yet another major error: the wrong antiphon on Benedictus. It's possibly the one for Corpus Christi instead of Pentecost.

How do publishers get away with failing to proofread, or in the Mundelein Psalter's case, failing to spell-check the introduction? Obviously they didn't have anyone sing through the book, because surely someone would have thought, as I did, that the Pentecost Benedictus antiphon didn't seem to have much to do with Pentecost.

Frustrating to see such error-ridden books keep appearing. Take the time to get them right!

Thanks for drawing our attention to this, Scott. I've already written in the correct Benedictus antiphon for Pentecost on my own copy for future use. Lucky I had the full version of the LOH to refer to. If you come across any further errors please let us know so that we can amend them; I will do likewise if I find any.

Perhaps someone ought to draw the attention of LTP to this and any other errors; possibly an errata slip could be inlcuded in all copies of the psalter until a reprint is possible.

These things do spoil an excellent publication!!!

DIVINE OFFICE

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
These things do spoil an excellent publication!!!

On that note, is there not an error in Christian Prayer, the one volume version of the RC Liturgy of the Hours? The version I have has the antiphon for the Canticle for Wednesday's Evening Prayer in Week II in the Easter season, as Let the peoples praise you, Lord God; let them rejoice in your salvation, alleluia!. Is this not incorrect? Should it not be His glory covers the heavens and his praise fills the earth, alleluia! ? I think the former is the correct antiphon for the first psalm of that day for the Easter season and it is incorrectly reprinted for the Canticle.
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Adrian1
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PD wrote:
quote:
Ritual Notes 11th edition suggests putting the Office hymn at Morning Prayer after the Venite, which is the position suggested in the Parson's Handbook too.

PD

That's correct, Father. The right place for the Office Hymn is immediately before the Psalms. My practice is only to have an Office Hymn at Evensong and omit it at Mattins where its job is effectively done by the Venite anyway.

--------------------
The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Thanks for drawing our attention to this, Scott. I've already written in the correct Benedictus antiphon for Pentecost on my own copy for future use. Lucky I had the full version of the LOH to refer to. If you come across any further errors please let us know so that we can amend them; I will do likewise if I find any.

These things do spoil an excellent publication!!!

I've started a list of errors in the Mundelein Psalter.
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Choirboy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by shkhill:
Anyone care to recommend an appropriate breviary for me? [...]

Oh, I think Scott Knitter would probably be the best to suggest something for you, but have you tried either of the following:

Monastic Diurnal Revised (Hold out for the noted edition, which should come out soon. Proofreading has already begun.)

I'm rather late the party, but I would strongly recommend the Monastic Dirunal Revised. There is no need to wait to pick up the existing volume; the new volume being proofread is essentially a vesperal - i.e. a volume of music for the little hours and vespers. Matins is spoken. You'll eventually need both volumes for the complete music (i.e. without matins) and full text.

The proofreading of the vesperal is likely to go on for some months yet. I volunteered to be one of the beta testers. But the existing volume at least contains antiphons and pointing for the psalms and magnificat for ferias. The new volume will add hymn tunes, proper antiphons for feasts and Sundays, common and proper of the saints, etc.

The antiphons are almost entirely out of the old Monastic Diurnal Noted (currently reprinted by Lancelot Andrewes Press) but redone to fit the three year lectionary. If you're not familiar with the Monastic Diurnal Revised, I'd strongly recommend it. I find it is just the right combination of old and new.

I'm not sure, but there may be room for a few more beta testers. Scott published the information for inquiries back on page 14 of the thread for those interested, or you can pm me.

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Forthview
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For catholicedinburgh from another part of the same city.

There is indeed a regular Latin Tridentine Mass every sunday at 11.30 in st andrew's church,with the permission of the bishop.

The dominicans have a Mass every day at 5.15 after which they sing Vespers (or maybe they say them)

There is a beatiful singing of Vespers each first sunday of the month in St Patrick's church at 6 pm

PS the Tridentine Mass is offered most mornings at 8.30 am in the priest's house close to St andrew's church.

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jlg

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Since this is such a long-running thread with so much useful and detailed information on it, we're trying to keep it free of tangential conversations.

Please feel free to start a new thread (or look for an old one) about where to find Tridentine masses.

jlg/Ecclesiantics host

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Olaf
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"Out of the blue" question:

Does anybody pray the office regularly in another language (i.e. not your first language)? Do you find value in it?

I have tried this on several occasions, and I find that it helps me to "chew on" the words a bit more, if that makes any sense. However, I've never tried it for an extended period, or with a complicated office--only simple "barebones" stuff. Does it sound like a ridiculous idea?

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Clavus
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Yes, there is real value for me in saying the Office in another language! It slows me down and makes me think about the words. It helps me 'connect' with the worldwide Church (not just the English-speaking world). It helps me understand and assimilate my own patrimony as a Western Catholic Christian. And of course it helps me learn the language concerned!

The language concerned is Latin (Lauds and Vespers from the modern Liturgy of the Hours).

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Divine Office
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Just had an email from the Camaldolese brothers in sunny California that the Camaldolese Office Book will be mailed this week. Fabulous!!!

DIVINE OFFICE

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Divine Office
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Clavus wrote:-

quote:
Yes, there is real value for me in saying the Office in another language! It slows me down and makes me think about the words. It helps me 'connect' with the worldwide Church (not just the English-speaking world). It helps me understand and assimilate my own patrimony as a Western Catholic Christian. And of course it helps me learn the language concerned!

The language concerned is Latin (Lauds and Vespers from the modern Liturgy of the Hours).

I also try to pray the LOH in Latin for the same reasons. At the moment I pray Sunday Vespers from Scepter's Lauds and Vespers book. I also have the complete Liturgia Horarum which I use for the other hours and on major feasts.

I have also used the Latin-English Monastic Diurnal published by Farnborough Abbey Press, and the current Antiphonale Monasticum published by the Abbey of Solesmes, as well as a recent reprint of the 1961 Diurnale Romanum.

I probably don't pronounce the Latin very well, having never formally learnt it, but I'm sure God understands it!!!

I have also toyed with the idea of obtaining a current French breviary. Is anyone familiar with this?

DIVINE OFFICE

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the Ænglican
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My wife and I used to sing Vespers from the Liber Usualis. Now that we have kids we use English for their benefit. (Maybe in a few years we'll be able to switch back... ) [Biased]

--------------------
The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere

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Wilfried
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I'd like to try German. I've said the daily prayers from the evangelisches Gesangbuch a few times, but they hardly constitute a full blown Office. Does anyone know anything about German breviaries, and can suggest what might be available (IIRC Scott mentioned something in one of these very long threads)?

I was last in Germany before I knew what a breviary was, but clearly I was a Breviary junkie in the making, as I spent lots of time in the religion section of bookstores, and I bought the hymnal mentioned above mostly for the prayers in the back. Too bad I didn't know what I was looking for. The only other thing I remember running across was the RC Gotteslob, which also appeared to be a hymnal with prayers. I did order from Ebay an old prayer book published by the Missouri Synod in German, which consists mostly of daily Bible readings.

I wonder how many say the Offices in Chinese? I'd love to hear it, though I won't hold my breath on finding someone who does. I'm not literate enough to try, even if I could find the right books.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
I'd like to try German. I've said the daily prayers from the evangelisches Gesangbuch a few times, but they hardly constitute a full blown Office. Does anyone know anything about German breviaries, and can suggest what might be available (IIRC Scott mentioned something in one of these very long threads)?

There are some wonderful RC office books in German, and an abridged 1979 USA BCP is available in German.

Christuslob is the very well done one-volume RC breviary, fully noted for chanting. Would that we would have such a thing here in English--the Mundelein Psalter brings us much closer to that than we had been.

There are two major sets of monastic office books in German, constituting a de facto successor to the Breviarium Monasticum. We also don't have such a thing in English, at least not published.

I have the beautifully produced five-volume set of the Benediktinisches Antiphonale, the office books of Münsterschwarzach Abbey. The volumes are Vigils and Lauds, Midday Office, Vespers and Compline, Cantor's Book, and the Holy Triduum and Easter. These are a working out of psalm scheme B of the Thesaurus Liturgiae Horarum Monasticae, with square chant notation.

There's also a notationless set of a Scheme B monastic breviary (Monastisches Stundenbuch), also beautifully printed and very sturdily bound, from St Ottilien.

To order any of these, check the links for titles and ISBNs, and try finding them at amazon.de or buch.de first, as payment and shipping are easier through those channels. Sometimes ordering from a monastery is a drag and extra expense because you have to get a cheque cut in euros.

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Triple Tiara

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I used to believe in the vernacular Liturgy - until I heard it in German [Biased] [Snigger] .

I sometimes use the Latin, and once upon a time flip-flopped between French and Italian for Compline. I spent a couple of months in a French Benedictine Abbey and grew to adore the Office in French. "Seigneur, ouvre mes lèvres et ma bouche annoncera ta louange"

--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Manipled Mutineer
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I pray Lauds and Vespers in Latin, for much the same reasons as adduced by others.

--------------------
Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books


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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
"Out of the blue" question:

Does anybody pray the office regularly in another language (i.e. not your first language)? Do you find value in it?

I have tried this on several occasions, and I find that it helps me to "chew on" the words a bit more, if that makes any sense. However, I've never tried it for an extended period, or with a complicated office--only simple "barebones" stuff. Does it sound like a ridiculous idea?

I'd either have to part with much money (that I don't have) in order to do that or go low church and say the office. I usually sing the office here at home, and changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language, which is an expense I can't justify to myself, even though others here have pointed out the value in doing the Office in another language.

--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
"Out of the blue" question:

Does anybody pray the office regularly in another language (i.e. not your first language)? Do you find value in it?

I have tried this on several occasions, and I find that it helps me to "chew on" the words a bit more, if that makes any sense. However, I've never tried it for an extended period, or with a complicated office--only simple "barebones" stuff. Does it sound like a ridiculous idea?

I'd either have to part with much money (that I don't have) in order to do that or go low church and say the office. I usually sing the office here at home, and changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language, which is an expense I can't justify to myself, even though others here have pointed out the value in doing the Office in another language.
That's why I had to mention going barebones. My own denomination, the ELCA, has a Spanish-language book of worship/hymnal that includes MP, EP, and Compline, along with some musical resources. An abbreviated Psalter and some tones are also included. I also got a really good price ($2) on a copy of the Chinese United Methodist Hymnal, but I can't read Chinese so I would have to use the English on the facing page anyway!
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