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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Choirboy
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# 9659
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Posted
Maybe almost doable for chanting the psalms, although potentially still tricky to spot the patterns of stressed syllables to fit to the music on the fly. But the text of the antiphons would be quite a job to fit to the music.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
What choirboy said. For the psalms, I could probably muddle my way through some of the simpler of the eight psalm tones with the simpler endings but not all of the psalm tones make it that easy to figure out where the stress goes. I've been caught out before now with the occasional verse, and that's while doing it in English. In a language not my first I definitely couldn't manage it off the cuff and if I were to prepare each time I did the office, I'd be spending more time pointing the words than I would actually praying. And that's just the psalm tones for the psalms and canticles.
If I were to try the antiphons it would take for ever. If I had the time and skill (which I don't) for an undertaking like that, I'd compile it and get published. I'm sure I'd make a tidy sum from it too. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Anybody know a decent, relatively simple noonday prayer form (simple as in something amenable to saying 3 or 4 sections of Psalm 119 a day) in traditional language, other than the version of Noonday Prayer found in the Anglican Service Book? I sometimes use the prayer for daytime from the MANUAL OF ANGLO-CATHOLIC DEVOTION but wondered if there were other options.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Maybe almost doable for chanting the psalms, although potentially still tricky to spot the patterns of stressed syllables to fit to the music on the fly. But the text of the antiphons would be quite a job to fit to the music.
The Saint Meinrad two-line psalm tones used in the Mundelein Psalter work with almost any psalter translation and with minimal or no pointing. If you're the only one chanting, you can wing it very easily once you've got the tune in mind. See some PDFs here.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
I just realised how dismissive my earlier post may have seemed. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for it to be and appreciate your suggestion, which I now think I actually may have misunderstood.
I use the eight Sarum psalm tones with their various endings. I like them. I like the fact that they are an expression of the heritage of Christianity in this part of the world, developing from the musical traditions that developed in Orthodoxy here. It really would be difficult for me to drop them for something else at this point, especially as I'm just now being able identify the eight tones and grow accustomed to the various endings for each. (Also, on a practical note, if I ever have to organise the music for a public recitation of the office, I have the organ accompaniment to these tones, and using them regularly means that I am getting to know them well).
Aside from anything else, nothing I could ever come up with could even come close to matching the Sarum tones in beauty. They're truly splendid. Tone VIII 5, for example, is so simple, and yet just so lovely. Similarly IA 5. I think it's the ending of these that do it for me.
I was staying over at one of our parishioners' houses a few weeks ago, and while I am eternally grateful for her hospitality, when we said Compline together, it just didn't feel the same somehow, and it was because it was the first time in months that I had said it. I missed the tones.
Does that sound like a silly thing, like vanity? I mean, surely prayer is prayer, no?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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J.S. Bach
Shipmate
# 9633
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Posted
Many thanks, Scott, for posting the New Camaldoli information. The weekly ordos are veritable works of art and will greatly simplify using their office book.
The last few weeks, I've mostly been praying with The Mundelein Psalter. It is a joy, at last, to be able to routinely chant the office!
Will New Camaldoli be making their ordo available every week? A nice office routine might be to alternate Mundelein and New Camaldoli every 4 weeks.
Blessings to all,
JSB
Posts: 104 | From: Near Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Will New Camaldoli be making their ordo available every week? A nice office routine might be to alternate Mundelein and New Camaldoli every 4 weeks.
I believe they plan to make it available on their Web site.
By the way, the ordo takes for granted that you start each hour with #1, the opening versicle, response, and Gloria Patri. The items for the end of the hour are listed along the bottom. I don't think they use a closing versicle; the "closing trope" at Lauds and the Marian antiphon at Vespers are the end of those offices.
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J.S. Bach
Shipmate
# 9633
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Posted
I sang 2nd Vespers of Holy Trinity and found it very easy to follow using the ordo. Benedictine Daily Prayer has excellent Vigils readings for holy days, so i used it. Curiously, it is missing the scripture readings but has four different patristic readings (one general, the others for the 3-year cycle).
JSB
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Anybody know a decent, relatively simple noonday prayer form (simple as in something amenable to saying 3 or 4 sections of Psalm 119 a day) in traditional language, other than the version of Noonday Prayer found in the Anglican Service Book? I sometimes use the prayer for daytime from the MANUAL OF ANGLO-CATHOLIC DEVOTION but wondered if there were other options.
Would it be appropriate to use the form of Prime from the proposed UK 1928 BCP as a form for noonday prayer?
http://tinyurl.com/2pn2ex
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Anybody know a decent, relatively simple noonday prayer form (simple as in something amenable to saying 3 or 4 sections of Psalm 119 a day) in traditional language, other than the version of Noonday Prayer found in the Anglican Service Book? I sometimes use the prayer for daytime from the MANUAL OF ANGLO-CATHOLIC DEVOTION but wondered if there were other options.
Another possible option might be to try to get hold of a 1962 or earlier edition of the orginal Manual of Catholic Devotion first published by the Church Literature Association in 1950. This had basic orders of Prime, Terce, Sext, None, and Compline as well as the BCP orders of Mattins and Evensong. Avoid the 1969 edition, though, as this only had Compline as well as Mattins and Evensong.
The problem is that all the editions are pretty hard to find now. However, it might be well worth checking out the stock of second-hand theological booksellers, as well as internet sites like eBay and the ABE Books catalogue.
In my experience if you hunt for something long enough you eventually find it.
DIVINE OFFICE
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Extol
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# 11865
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Posted
I do have a copy of the old MANUAL--it's a good idea. I can use the form for SEXT but cycle through 119 at noontime, and maybe use the antiphons from the other Little Hours accordingly.
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
I just realised how dismissive my earlier post may have seemed. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for it to be and appreciate your suggestion, which I now think I actually may have misunderstood.
No, it didn't seem dismissive at all; thank you to both you and Choirboy for your replies. Your second reply, Saint Bertelin, expanded on some things that I had started to think might be the case. My question itself reveals (as I thought about this issue more) how much the music per se is not part of how I think of MP and EP. Not part of my primary experience. I don't really understand tones -- at the moment they're theoretical things to me and just a pile of notes, no different from any other pile of notes.
Are there any links you (or others) might specifically recommend on tones? Where would I go if I wanted to find something I could sing them from?
[ETA: Uh-oh. Is this the first step on a slippery slope? Why do I think the answer to my question might be "Dear AR, you need these sixteen daily office books!" ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ]
[ 04. June 2007, 19:38: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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the Ænglican
Shipmate
# 12496
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Posted
If you just need the tones themselves, there's a handy one-page pdf here that lists them all.
Is it a slippery slope? But of course! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
I just realised how dismissive my earlier post may have seemed. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for it to be and appreciate your suggestion, which I now think I actually may have misunderstood.
No, it didn't seem dismissive at all; thank you to both you and Choirboy for your replies. Your second reply, Saint Bertelin, expanded on some things that I had started to think might be the case. My question itself reveals (as I thought about this issue more) how much the music per se is not part of how I think of MP and EP. Not part of my primary experience. I don't really understand tones -- at the moment they're theoretical things to me and just a pile of notes, no different from any other pile of notes.
Are there any links you (or others) might specifically recommend on tones? Where would I go if I wanted to find something I could sing them from?
[ETA: Uh-oh. Is this the first step on a slippery slope? Why do I think the answer to my question might be "Dear AR, you need these sixteen daily office books!" ]
Haha! You're not far off.
Actually, if I'm honest, my primary Office books are The Monastic Diurnal and the offices of one of our Orthodox monasteries. Both are Benedictine and so for the music for the Offices, I use this. It was actually sitting my shelf for some months before I started saying the office properly as I had originally bought it and the for interest's sake, (back when I could afford to part with that sort of money solely for interest's sake).
For the psalms and canticles, I use this. It contains the psalms from the Miles Coverdale translation as it was adapted for inclusion in the 1928 American Prayer Book, each one pointed for singing with the music for the relevant tone printed in full above it, with accents for the stress on syllables and everything. It also contains a form of morning and evening prayer and Compline, not to mention many of the canticles, for which I am grateful because the Nunc Dimmittis at Compline isn't part of the Benedictine tradition and so isn't in the Diurnal, but as I use it at home, it is good to have the music for the Preserve us, O Lord antiphon in the Psalter. The only thing that is part of my own practice that isn't in any of these books is the Compline responsory, 'Into Thy hands, O Lord, I comment my spirit'. The music for this in both its usual and Paschal (with Alleluias) forms is in The Enmglish Hymnal. I've actually compiled my own little Compline booklet complete with music to save juggling books.
The St Dunstan Psalter really is quite good. In addition to having the 8 tones, and a beginner's guide to working out how to use them (assuming existing musical ability), it also has the solemn variations for the canticles and the whole set printed together at the back, quite separate from any words, so you can familiarise yourself with them apart from the office.
I have sung with choirs for a few years but never really done much plainsong except at one parish. Most of my plainsong reading and singing ability has developed from singing the office. With time, you just pick it up and it really is much easier than modern notation. I now couldn't imagine not singing it regularly.
I'm not saying that you should get up and do it if it isn't your thing. Many people are quite happy with saying the office quietly, and I find that useful sometimes (especially on public transport ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), but if it is something that you may want to explore, for somebody who is using a traditional language form the office at home or communally, I would certainly recommend the St Dunstan Psalter. Also, for those for whom this is an influencing factor when choosing prayer materials, the Lancelot Andrewes Press is an ecumenical effort, with Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox contributions.
I'm sure there are online sources for the tones as well (in their various forms).
[ 04. June 2007, 21:29: Message edited by: Saint Bertelin ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Choirboy
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# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
[ETA: Uh-oh. Is this the first step on a slippery slope? Why do I think the answer to my question might be "Dear AR, you need these sixteen daily office books!" ]
Oh stop - we all know the answer you're really hoping for!
A good basic introduction to singing the psalter (without antiphons generally) is the St. Dunstan's psalter from Lancelot Andrewes Press. That is, if you like the Coverdale psalter. It has all the music for sung MP, EP and Compline as well as a pointing of every psalm, and pointings of the traditional canticles. I believe it is quite reasonably priced as well ~$30.
Not really any antiphons to speak of, but a very good way to do traditional Prayer Book style hours with sung psalms, prayers, canticles, etc.
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Divine Office
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# 10558
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Posted
Just heard from the good monks that the Camaldolese Office Books are now in the post, and that those destined for the UK should arrive in about two weeks. I'm very much looking forward to receiving mine.
DIVINE OFFICE
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
It's great to see the wonderful little Daily Prayer book from the Scottish Episcopal Church now available in PDF on the refurbished SEC Web site. I encountered this on my first evening in Edinburgh with our choir as we attended Evening Prayer in St Mary's Episcopal Cathedral and fought jet lag. On our arrival, we were handed copies of this ringbound book opened to the correct page. It's in two parts, with the Offices up front and the [1979 USA BCP] psalter behind it. I like the ring binding, the sturdy paper, and the laminated canticle cards.
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
I | am well | pleaséd: that New Camaldoli hath | written |unto | me. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Very clever, that St. Dunstan's link. Following the link, one curious about chant might wish to read the Psalm Chant Tutorial. Then, to see the theory in action, one might look at the Psalms for the First Morning. Then one might peek at the Venite and the Magnificat.
Then one might chant through the downloaded examples, and find oneself intrigued by how different it is than reading them.
Then one might get curious to see examples of the rest of the eight tones and all the various tone endings. To say nothing of being intrigued by the style of the canticles. One might start to grasp how chanting could be attractive for daily use. But for all this one would need to order the book. Which at $30 and free shipping can hardly be resisted.
That's what one might do.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Very clever, that St. Dunstan's link. Following the link, one curious about chant might wish to read the Psalm Chant Tutorial. Then, to see the theory in action, one might look at the Psalms for the First Morning. Then one might peek at the Venite and the Magnificat.
Then one might chant through the downloaded examples, and find oneself intrigued by how different it is than reading them.
Then one might get curious to see examples of the rest of the eight tones and all the various tone endings. To say nothing of being intrigued by the style of the canticles. One might start to grasp how chanting could be attractive for daily use. But for all this one would need to order the book. Which at $30 and free shipping can hardly be resisted.
That's what one might do.
That has to be one of the best posts of all time.
Thank you for sharing with us the step-by-step inner workings of your mind. I dare not do the same, for mine is a frightening place indeed.
Enjoy the psalter.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Is anybody else using a version of the Office in which the melody for this evening's Magnificat antiphon (1st Vespers of Corpus Christi) is based very closely on Sarum Sanctus II, also found in the compilation Mass De Angelis?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Is anybody else using a version of the Office in which the melody for this evening's Magnificat antiphon (1st Vespers of Corpus Christi) is based very closely on Sarum Sanctus II, also found in the compilation Mass De Angelis?
Yes indeed...the Monastic Diurnal Noted, Revised Edition, p. 204, Antiphon on Magnificat: O sacred banquet, Mode V.1...which means it's probably also in the old Monastic Diurnal Noted.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Is anybody else using a version of the Office in which the melody for this evening's Magnificat antiphon (1st Vespers of Corpus Christi) is based very closely on Sarum Sanctus II, also found in the compilation Mass De Angelis?
Yes indeed...the Monastic Diurnal Noted, Revised Edition, p. 204, Antiphon on Magnificat: O sacred banquet, Mode V.1...which means it's probably also in the old Monastic Diurnal Noted.
Ahhhm now that's interesting. The Monastic Diurnal gives this evening's antiphon as:
quote:
O how sweet is Thy Spirit, O Lord! Who that Thou mightest shew Thy kindness unto Thy children, givest them that sweetest Bread from heaven, fillest the hungry with good things, and sendest the rich and scornful empty away.
It is this that I have to the similar melody to the Sanctus, identified here as mode vi, (or vj, to quote more accurately).
The O Sacrum Convivium is given as the antiphon for 2nd Vespers (tomorrow) but the melody is entirely different.
I also have a slender publication from the good ladies at Wantage, entitled Vespers of the Blessed Sacrament. This has yet another melody for the O Sacrum Convivium which is lovelier than that in the Monastic Diurnal. I think I may use that tomorrow.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Ahhhm now that's interesting. The Monastic Diurnal gives this evening's antiphon as:
quote:
O how sweet is Thy Spirit, O Lord! Who that Thou mightest shew Thy kindness unto Thy children, givest them that sweetest Bread from heaven, fillest the hungry with good things, and sendest the rich and scornful empty away.
It is this that I have to the similar melody to the Sanctus, identified here as mode vi, (or vj, to quote more accurately).
The O Sacrum Convivium is given as the antiphon for 2nd Vespers (tomorrow) but the melody is entirely different.
I just checked the Monastic Diurnal Revised (not the Noted chant book), and the MDR starts Corpus Christi at Matins, so there's no longer a I Vespers of it, apparently.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Ahhhm now that's interesting. The Monastic Diurnal gives this evening's antiphon as:
quote:
O how sweet is Thy Spirit, O Lord! Who that Thou mightest shew Thy kindness unto Thy children, givest them that sweetest Bread from heaven, fillest the hungry with good things, and sendest the rich and scornful empty away.
It is this that I have to the similar melody to the Sanctus, identified here as mode vi, (or vj, to quote more accurately).
The O Sacrum Convivium is given as the antiphon for 2nd Vespers (tomorrow) but the melody is entirely different.
I just checked the Monastic Diurnal Revised (not the Noted chant book), and the MDR starts Corpus Christi at Matins, so there's no longer a I Vespers of it, apparently.
There is in this house!
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I seem to recall people referencing the traditional MP and EP canticles, with the new-fangled Magnificat permission in 1979 ECUSA BCP EP coming in for particular derision.
Is there a chart of the traditional canticles and which days they are assigned to, somewhere? (Someone please correct me if I have misremembered!)
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Choirboy
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# 9659
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Posted
I believe there is in the St. Dunstan's psalter...hint, hint.....
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
Oh oh. Am I going to have to say this in public? Ahem. Um. Errrr.
"Hi everyone. My name is Autenrieth Road, and I would look this up in my St. Dunstan's Psalter, but I don't know when the mailman is going to arrive."
[Thanks Choirboy. That totally had not occurred to me. I will be patient. (* Does the "where is the mailman with my new book" liturgical dance. *)]
[ 07. June 2007, 02:18: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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catholicedinburgh
Apprentice
# 12668
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Posted
quote:
Actually, if I'm honest, my primary Office books are The Monastic Diurnal and the offices of one of our Orthodox monasteries. Both are Benedictine and so for the music for the Offices, I use this. It was actually sitting my shelf for some months before I started saying the office properly as I had originally bought it and the for interest's sake, (back when I could afford to part with that sort of money solely for interest's sake).
For the psalms and canticles, I use this. It contains psalms from the Miles Coverdale translation
Hello All
Having looked at the links in this post, these books seem to be exactly what I am looking for. I am unclear about the ordering process for those of us resident in the UK. I have a Switch Card and a PayPal account(for e-bay). No credit cards as I don't want any. Am I able to order these books fron Lancelot Andrewes Press. If so, how???
Oh how I could fill my shelves with liturgical books ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
"Hi everyone. My name is Autenrieth Road, and I would look this up in my St. Dunstan's Psalter, but I don't know when the mailman is going to arrive."
Admitting you have a breviary problem is the first step to acquiring many more. In particular, St. Dunstan's is itself a gateway breviary to the Monastic Diurnal or Monastic Diurnal Revised....
Actually, it appears that I am wrong and there is not a handy table in the St. Dunstan's, which is a pity. They do give a great many details in their description of the ordinary on pages 229-242, especially (for the canticles) on pages 235-6 and 238.
St. Dunstan's largely follows the U.S. 1928 BCP, which, like the 1662 BCP, provides a canticle and several alternates after each of the two readings in Matins and Evensong. However, as there are few rubrics in the U.S. prayerbook about what to choose when, St. Dunstan's turns to the old Roman breviary for guidance.
As you know, BCP Matins is the old Matins plus Lauds condensed and BCP Evensong is the old Vespers plus Compline condensed. The traditional canticles (Mag/Nunc at Evensong, Venite/Te Deum/Benedictus at Matins) are precisely inherited from the old Matins/Lauds and old Vespers/Compline. Additionally, the BCP provides alternates for most of these.
However, the rule in St. Dunstan's is to always use the Benedictus for the 2nd canticle at Matins and to always use the Mag and Nunc for canticles at Evensong (unless compline is to follow, in which case the Nunc can be replaced by an alternate). The first canticle at Matins is generally the Te Deum. The rubrics on page 235-6 show what days the Te Deum is or is not sung on - generally replaced during penitential seasons, for example. These rules follow the old breviary.
Now the fun bit. In the old office of Lauds, there was an old testament canticle included with the pslams; this canticle varied with day of the week and with whether it was a feast or feria (so 14 canticles). In the 1928 BCP, the two alternates for the Te Deum (Benedicite omnia opera, Benedictus es) are precisely the ferial and festal canticles for Lauds on Sunday.
St. Dunstan's expands that list of alternates to include the other 12 OT canticles from Lauds, varying with day of the week and feast/feria. So when the Te Deum is omitted, you can replace it with the corresponding ferial or festal canticle from the old Lauds - BCP works out as Venite from Matins plus OT canticle and Benedictus from Lauds.
Or you can stick to exact 1928 usage, although they don't give settings for the alternate canticles to the Benedictus or Mag. There are two settings for the alternates to the Nunc in case you do two-lesson Evensong followed later by compline, thereby keeping the Nunc for compline and needing an alternate at Evensong.
Probably clear as mud. It's late. Sorry for the length of post.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Choirboy
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quote:
Originally posted by catholicedinburgh:
Having looked at the links in this post, these books seem to be exactly what I am looking for. I am unclear about the ordering process for those of us resident in the UK. I have a Switch Card and a PayPal account(for e-bay). No credit cards as I don't want any. Am I able to order these books fron Lancelot Andrewes Press. If so, how???
At the bottom of the link to the monastic diurnal, there is information for paying with a credit card through pay pal, or they take checks or money orders. I don't know about these switch card things, but if you can't make your pay pal account work, then I suggest you email the press to get information on how to pay with a money order. You may need to get some sort of instrument drawn in dollars. On the home page, there is an email address given for enquiries: info@andrewespress.com.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Choirboy
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P.S. The Monastic Diurnal and Monastic Diurnal Noted contain respectively the rite and the music for the old monastic day hours. The St. Dunstan's psalter is music to go along with a BCP daily office. You don't need that psalter to sing the psalms with the Monastic Diurnal.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
P.S. The Monastic Diurnal and Monastic Diurnal Noted contain respectively the rite and the music for the old monastic day hours. The St. Dunstan's psalter is music to go along with a BCP daily office. You don't need that psalter to sing the psalms with the Monastic Diurnal.
Yes. Choirboy's right. I hope I didn't mislead anybody with my post above, which was a summary of what I use. There is indeed a table of psalm tones in the Monastic Diurnal Noted but it is not a psalter and doesn't contain the actual text of the psalms. These are to be found in the Monastic Diurnal at the appropriate office and day. This means that that the devout (or not so devout) person saying the office has to somehow juggle the Monastic Diurnal Noted (for the music) and the Monastic Diurnal (for the words), while simultaneously trying to work out where the pointing should be (because the MD does not have the psalms pointed for chanting).
The St Dunstan's Psalter, on the other hand, has the advantage of having a much fuller provision of the psalm tones as they were expanded at Sarum, and also has the appropriate tone with the appropriate ending above each psalm, with the ensuing psalm pointed for use with that particular tone and ending. It may not be essential for use with the Monastic Diurnal but it certainly makes life much, much easier, and I would recommend it to anybody who, like me, struggles to manage with a number of books at once.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Divine Office
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My Camaldolese Office Book has just arrived in record time!!
I've only looked through it briefly, but it looks a fascinating volume. I am intrigued by the Orthodox-esque closing tropes - I presume they take the place of a collect?
DIVINE OFFICE
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Divine Office
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Another thing that strikes me about the Camaldolese Office Book is that because each hymn, psalm and canticle in the book is numbered, it could be used as a kind of hymnal in conjunction with another office book; the numbers of the items being used from the Camaldolese book could be displayed on the hymn board when the office is being sung.
In this way it could be used to augment, for example, the standard RC Liturgy of the Hours or Common Worship; Daily Prayer.
DIVINE OFFICE
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Extol
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Does anyone (and especially a certain poster whose name rhymes with "Hot Fritter") know if the MONASTIC BREVIARY used by the Order of the Holy Cross since the late 60s (when it was known as the FOUR OFFICE BREVIARY) is still in print? Is it still in use or did the Monks also switch to the MDR? I have called the bookstore at Holy Cross a few times over the past year, but have never gotten a call back. Thanks--
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Patrick
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Although the book has been out now for three years, I only recently came upon Daily Liturgical Prayer by Gregory Woolfenden. The only comprehensive comparative study of the Divine Office that I had read up to now was the magisterial work of Robert Taft, SJ, The Liturgy of the Hours East and West. Fr.Woolfenden, once at Rippon College, Oxford and now a pastor of an Orthodox parish in the States,is grounded in Taft, of course, and also in Paul Bradshaw's work. The present volume is a gem, focused upon a simple observation: that in its origin, the daily office was a meditation upon the transition from darkness to light, from sleep to wakefulness and, most importantly, from death to life. The Paschal Vigil serves as a paradigm for this meditation. Thus, the liturgical day properly begins with sunset and ends at sunset, not from sunrise till night. The Eastern Churches, without exception, keep this pattern even today. For us Orthodox, for instance, Vespers and Matins look forward to a feast, which culminates in our sacramental participation in its mystery through the Divine Liturgy. The notion of Second Vespers is quite alien to an Eastern Orthodox sense of liturgical commemoration, except, rarely, during the Great Fast (Forty Martyrs of Sabaste, for instance, when a Presanctified Liturgy is served). Fr.Woolfenden goes through the structure and development of all the major Eastern liturgical families as well as the Roman and Benedictine Office and the Ambrosian and Mozarabic variants.
When I was a boy, my Colllegeville Short Breviary already incorporated, in the 60's, the abolition of First Vespers for all but First Class Feasts (now termed Solemnities) and Sundays, and that still is all that remains of the ancient vesperal anticipation of a feast after the promulgation of Vatican II's LOTH. I was always chagrined/amused when I attended Vespers at the Cowley Fathers.How out of sync:they were using the Sarum derived Hours of Prayer, and, given the frequent coincidence of First and Second Vespers in the Sanctoral, Second Vespers were rare, largely confined to Sundays and the major celebrations of the year. I thought that the good Fathers were being pleasantly quaint. Rev. Paul Hartzell's earlier editions of the Prayer Book Office also emphasized First Vespers (given its Sarum flavor) but, alas, the later printings, again product of the 60's, took Second Vespers as the norm.
Fr. Woolfenden also emphasizes the centrality of not only Vespers and Lauds, but also of the nocturnal Vigil. As Stanislaus Campbell, From Breviary to Liturgy of the Hours, reveals, the Fathers at Vatican II rejected Juan Mateos's suggestion regarding a popular, Cathedral tradition vigil service. Some acknowledgement of the nocturnal vigil character of the new Office of Readings is conceded in the official commentaries, and in the supplementary Resurrectional Gospel options, but, as you know, the Office of Readings may be said at any time of day (violating the ancient practice of connecting the Office with a definite times for prayer) and its nocturnal use is probably now exclusively monastic.
Stanislaus Campbell focuses upon the processes and compromises that led to the promulgation of the LOTH. The primary difficulty that the Breviary reformers had was in reconciling the notion of the Daily Office as a a priest's book of devotion with the concept of the Daily Office as the common,popular public worship of the Church.
The modern western office, even before the Vatican II revisions, departs radically from the ancient notion of the liturgical day insofar as the LOTH and breviaries subsequent to the 1960's generally begins with sunrise and ends at sunset. It is not essentially centered upon the Resurrectional theme as was the ancient Office and as it is still celebrated in the East. It seems, as Campbell views it, as if the hierarchs at Vatican II were hesitant, with some good reason, for accepting the judgment of the liturgical scholars regarding how to renew the Office. But, I think, in what finally transpired, they threw away the baby with the bath water.
Posts: 109 | From: Fordham University, Bronx, N.Y. U.S.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Oblatus
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone (and especially a certain poster whose name rhymes with "Hot Fritter") know if the MONASTIC BREVIARY used by the Order of the Holy Cross since the late 60s (when it was known as the FOUR OFFICE BREVIARY) is still in print? Is it still in use or did the Monks also switch to the MDR? I have called the bookstore at Holy Cross a few times over the past year, but have never gotten a call back. Thanks--
It appears to be out of print, but copies do pop up on eBay, abebooks.com, and other such venues frequently. I have a really old one with ribbons as well as a much newer one without, but I don't think there's been a printing recently. I believe the OHC monks still use it. I often wonder what they think of the Saint Helena Breviary and whether they would adopt it or use it sometimes. I'd vote for that if I were one of them, but I'm not.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Choirboy
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
The St Dunstan's Psalter, on the other hand, has the advantage of having a much fuller provision of the psalm tones as they were expanded at Sarum, and also has the appropriate tone with the appropriate ending above each psalm, with the ensuing psalm pointed for use with that particular tone and ending. It may not be essential for use with the Monastic Diurnal but it certainly makes life much, much easier, and I would recommend it to anybody who, like me, struggles to manage with a number of books at once.
The number of books is the same - 2 either way, but the number of back and forth switches between the MDN and MD may be greater than between the St. Dunstan's and the MD. It is true that with the MDN, you don't have the full psalm written out and pointed, so you have to 'point on the fly' while reading from the MD. That takes some practice, but with the Coverdale translation isn't as bad as you might fear.
The disadvantage of the St. Dunstan's for use with the MD is that the music for the antiphons for the psalms and cancticles isn't there, so you have to say them. If you tried to use all three, then you'd find the mode of the antiphons in the MD didn't match the tone of the corresponding psalm pointed in the St. Dunstan's. So that doesn't work well (and would be juggling 3 books!).
But the St. Dunstan's is exceptional with traditional BCP Matins/Evensong, and does work with the MD (with this limitation about the antiphons).
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
Thanks for that St. Dunstan's canticle explanation, Choirboy. Oh goody, more calendar rubrics to play with! (I do not say that sarcastically.)
Somewhere I own a 1928 BCP, so as I wait for my St. Dunstan's to arrive I will fish that out and compare it with 1979. My intent would be MP and EP from the 1979 BCP. MP and EP don't occur regularly at St. Z, but when they do, that's where they're from, so that's where I would prefer to be familiar from. (Even if I use Rite I wherever I can, and St. Z's usually uses Rite II.)
Because of using the ECUSA BCP is why I decided St. Dunstan's as a psalter fit, rather than a different whole office book.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Wilfried
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# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone (and especially a certain poster whose name rhymes with "Hot Fritter") know if the MONASTIC BREVIARY used by the Order of the Holy Cross since the late 60s (when it was known as the FOUR OFFICE BREVIARY) is still in print? Is it still in use or did the Monks also switch to the MDR? I have called the bookstore at Holy Cross a few times over the past year, but have never gotten a call back. Thanks--
Which Holy Cross did you call? They still use it for the offices at Holy Cross Monastery in Poughkeepsie NY (you try spelling that without looking it up), and they had copies in the bookstore the last time I was there a few months ago. You can reach them here.
quote:
I often wonder what they think of the Saint Helena Breviary and whether they would adopt it or use it sometimes. I'd vote for that if I were one of them, but I'm not.
I chatted with a couple of monks about the SHB which was also on sale (I bought one, and they seemed a mite surprised someone actually did). They didn't mind it, but weren't terribly enthused about it either. They didn't give very concrete reasons; it sounded like they were simply happy enough with what they've already got. They've inclusivized some of the language in the Monastic Breviary with stickers and scotch tape, so that's not the issue. One did jokinly say, "You try holding that thing through an entire office."
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Which Holy Cross did you call? They still use it for the offices at Holy Cross Monastery in Poughkeepsie NY (you try spelling that without looking it up), and they had copies in the bookstore the last time I was there a few months ago. You can reach them here.
I'd spell it W-E-S-T P-A-R-K.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Extol
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# 11865
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Posted
I called West Park, and e-mailed. I did so today, in fact, with no luck.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Divine Office
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# 10558
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Posted
quote:
Does anyone (and especially a certain poster whose name rhymes with "Hot Fritter") know if the MONASTIC BREVIARY used by the Order of the Holy Cross since the late 60s (when it was known as the FOUR OFFICE BREVIARY) is still in print? Is it still in use or did the Monks also switch to the MDR? I have called the bookstore at Holy Cross a few times over the past year, but have never gotten a call back. Thanks--
I have a copy of this which I obtained through abebooks.com several months ago. I've also seen two or three copies on eBay over the years.
Although it was published in definitive form as A Monastic Breviary back in 1977, I still think it is pretty good as a modern office book and would merit reprinting, as would Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office.
I don't suppose there is much chance of that now that the SHB has been published; I suppose that even these relatively modern office books would seem dated to some people in comparison to that. It's a pity, though.
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
I called West Park, and e-mailed. I did so today, in fact, with no luck.
I'd give them 24 hours to respond. The times during which their schedule allows for phone calls and Internet use may be limited.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Wilfried
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Posted
Yeah well, I took the train the Poughkeepsie. Other people who care about monasteries, no one knows where West Park is.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Somewhere I own a 1928 BCP, so as I wait for my St. Dunstan's to arrive I will fish that out and compare it with 1979....Because of using the ECUSA [1979] BCP is why I decided St. Dunstan's as a psalter fit, rather than a different whole office book.
Much of a muchness for the daily office, other than the addition of the Phos hilaron and lamp lighting as an optional pre-Evensong thing in the '79. I'm sure you can use every bit of the St. Dunstan's Psalter with either Rite I or II of the '79 without trouble. I certainly have with Rite I on many occasions, and Rite II often enough.
[ETA - the BCP website has both the '79 and '28 online, so you can spare yourself digging through boxes...unless you want to....]
[ 07. June 2007, 21:07: Message edited by: Choirboy ]
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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