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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
An awesome reading! Happy birthday to you! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Thank you very much indeed! Despite my best intentions and a detailed plan, I never got to my full Benedictine office today. I am grateful, though, that I was able to attend Evening Prayer and Low Mass in my parish church. There were 10 souls in attendance, which is pretty good for a gloomy, rainy Wednesday.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
An awesome reading! Happy birthday to you!
Thank you very much indeed! Despite my best intentions and a detailed plan, I never got to my full Benedictine office today. I am grateful, though, that I was able to attend Evening Prayer and Low Mass in my parish church. There were 10 souls in attendance, which is pretty good for a gloomy, rainy Wednesday.
That's a really, really good attendance total for a gloomy, rainy Wednesday in an inner city Episcopal church on St. Luke's Day. You probably had 5 times more people than at St. James Cathedral!
Out of curiosity, do you ever do a sung mass or sung evening prayer on a festival like today with just organ or organ and cantor (no choir)? At a church like yours, on a day like today, I would guess-timate around three people in the building were competent enough in organ to accompany hymns and liturgical music. Does anyone ever just say, "Let's do a sung mass. I can play."
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Out of curiosity, do you ever do a sung mass or sung evening prayer on a festival like today with just organ or organ and cantor (no choir)? At a church like yours, on a day like today, I would guess-timate around three people in the building were competent enough in organ to accompany hymns and liturgical music. Does anyone ever just say, "Let's do a sung mass. I can play."
Much of our parish's liturgical patterns were carved into stone by the previous rector when the 1979 BCP was adopted, so the times when something about a Mass or Office is decided just that day are rare indeed. I'm sure there's a book somewhere that lists all the observances of the church year along with notations like "Sung Mass at 6:30" or "Solemn High Mass with full choir..." I'm not complaining about this, as I do like the set-ness of the parish customary.
As for Sung Mass, it's done more on Marian feasts and some holy days that would be treated as a solemnity in an RC church. I'm not sure that's the rule that's used, but it seems to be the pattern. So we'd have a Sung Mass following Evening Prayer on August 15 for the Assumption of the BVM but just an added evening Low Mass for St. Luke's Day. The organist's contract probably lists all the required Sung Mass occasions so he can be there to play and can be paid accordingly. The only choir that ever sings is the professional one at Solemn High Masses.
The rector is amenable to chanting at Evening Prayer, and one of our officiants does this regularly, all except the psalms (pity...we could get some plainsong psalters--eight or 10 would be plenty--and do this sometime, like in my previous parish). Typically, the chanted Evening Prayer happens on those higher Holy Days, when EP is followed by Sung or Solemn Mass, as there's more time to chant because the Apostles' Creed and collect for mission are dropped per the rubrics.
That officiant who chants is also a masterful organist and could certainly play for Sung Mass, but that would amount to a change and just isn't done. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) He has played for an evening Sung Mass before, but that's because it was one of those that's always a sung Mass and the parish organist had a schedule conflict. The type of Mass isn't generally changed based on who shows up. Again, I'm not complaining, as I like this, although I don't think all parishes should be this way.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The type of Mass isn't generally changed based on who shows up. Again, I'm not complaining, as I like this, although I don't think all parishes should be this way.
Episcopalians that don't like change? I can hardly believe that! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
As a Lutheran, the idea of a spoken mass is just absolutely perplexing. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
As a Lutheran, the idea of a spoken mass is just absolutely perplexing.
I know...that's a major difference. I really like a peaceful Low Mass sometimes, though. Try it sometime!
I'll bet even Lutherans would find Low Mass lovely on occasion. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
But I suppose we'd best get back to Daily Office before we get yelled at.
[ 19. October 2006, 22:11: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
As a Lutheran, the idea of a spoken mass is just absolutely perplexing.
I know...that's a major difference. I really like a peaceful Low Mass sometimes, though. Try it sometime!
I'll bet even Lutherans would find Low Mass lovely on occasion.
But I suppose we'd best get back to Daily Office before we get yelled at.
Indeed I have attended peaceful low masses before; I do find them lovely, and I have suggested them as alternatives to eliminating services on several occasions to horrified people(alas, to no avail). Still, my mind always defaults to sung mass mode being the norm, not the exception.
On the topic of the daily office, you mentioned that a prev congo of yours sang EP on occasion. Did they actually read Gregorian chant notation, or was it just a normal treble clef? Did they have to be taught? We used to sing psalms to the LBW tones, but current leadership abolished the practice (and will hear no dissent). ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) After our next leadership change, it would be nice to bring it back, using more complicated tones. Any thoughts?
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ecce Quam Bonum
Shipmate
# 10884
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
But now I'm thinking of just being satisfied with my Monastic Diurnal Revised with its monthly psalter cycle. My plan involves too many books, and too much work to make it one book. The MDR requires only my Daily Office Book (just for the lessons) to be complete. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Scott,
I am thinking of investing in a copy of the Monastic Diurnal Revised. It's reasonably priced, and it would support the Community of St. Mary, so I'm all for it. However, could you give me some idea of what it's like? And, more importantly, how do you like it? Thank you!
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"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"
Posts: 168 | From: Sewanee, TN | Registered: Jan 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BibleBeltAnglican:
I am thinking of investing in a copy of the Monastic Diurnal Revised. It's reasonably priced, and it would support the Community of St. Mary, so I'm all for it. However, could you give me some idea of what it's like? And, more importantly, how do you like it? Thank you!
I like it a whole lot, and it continually impresses me as very Benedictine and very Episcopalian at the same time, which is a very good thing IMO.
It's a sturdy blue hardcover, about the size of a standard full-music hymn book. Good instructions and psalm-ending tables are given up front, along with the calendar. "Matins" is really a one-nocturn Matins on a four-week psalm cycle flowing into Lauds on a one-week cycle (and the rest of the hours have a one-week cycle as well). This arrangement reflects the CSM's old Order of Matins, which in turn was influenced by the Quinones breviary.
Matins at CSM is generally said, not sung, so those psalms are not pointed for chant. Ferial antiphons at the (two) little hours, Vespers, and Compline are provided with chant. The sisters haven't published their chant book with the rest of the music in it (the MDR Noted). Nag them about it, as they say they'll publish it "if there is enough interest."
Do get the Triduum book as well...none of its material is in the main MDR. For the Triduum, the sisters set aside the big book and use the slim Triduum volume with big Tenebrae-style Matins each day as well as the other offices.
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I just got an email from Powell's Books informing me that my copy of the BCP/NRSV is sitting on the hold shelf, just waiting for me to come pick it up and pay for it.
Of course, their webpage says it's still on backorder.
And what were the first words out of my mouth when I learned this holy prayer book was ready for me to purchase?
"Hot damn, it's here!"
[ 20. October 2006, 21:05: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by BibleBeltAnglican:
I am thinking of investing in a copy of the Monastic Diurnal Revised. It's reasonably priced, and it would support the Community of St. Mary, so I'm all for it. However, could you give me some idea of what it's like? And, more importantly, how do you like it? Thank you!
I like it a whole lot, and it continually impresses me as very Benedictine and very Episcopalian at the same time, which is a very good thing IMO.
What are the differences between the RC Monastic Diurinal and the Anglican one?
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
What are the differences between the RC Monastic Diurinal and the Anglican one?
Well, there are whole online discussion groups dedicated to this question.
Before 1977, there was a standard Benedictine monastic breviary, Breviarium Monasticum, and the Monastic Diurnal is an edition of that without the office of Matins aka Vigils. There's an RC Monastic Diurnal back in print with parallel columns of English and Latin. The Anglican version thereof, all in English, was prepared by Canon Winfred Douglas for the Community of St Mary in Peekskill, New York. What makes it Anglican is that it uses the Coverdale psalter translation and KJV lessons; most of the collects are from the BCP, I think; hymn texts are those of John Mason Neale in many cases. Most of the overall content is the same as the RC version, as Douglas wanted to create an office for Anglican monastics that was still also Benedictine (in psalm distribution and other texts).
The Monastic Diurnal Revised is a 1989 revision of Douglas' work to bring the book in line with the 1979 USA BCP, and I think it's quite successful, although typesetting and binding aren't up to the previous standard, but the nuns produced the MDR largely on their own. It's well proofread and solidly bound, even if the layout is a little dry-looking.
[ 20. October 2006, 22:53: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]
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RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Well, there are whole online discussion groups dedicated to this question.
Thanks for the explanation. Any links to the groups?
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Well, there are whole online discussion groups dedicated to this question.
Thanks for the explanation. Any links to the groups?
Here are five of them. The first is about the Anglican Monastic Diurnal (the old one, not the Monastic Diurnal Revised) recently reprinted by Lancelot Andrewes Press, and the second is about the Roman Catholic one recently reprinted by Farnborough Abbey.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
What are the differences between the RC Monastic Diurinal and the Anglican one?
Is this thread just an excuse for Anglicans and RCs to take the piss out of each other?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
What are the differences between the RC Monastic Diurinal and the Anglican one?
Is this thread just an excuse for Anglicans and RCs to take the piss out of each other?
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Diurnal.
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Just in case anyone's interested there are currently copies of the 1998 reprint of The Anglican Breviary and the 1980 edition of Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office for sale on eBay. The current prices are very reasonable in both cases.
ALAN SINCLAIR
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
The new Eamon Duffy book will be published on All Hallows Eve, and is about Books of Hours and their owners.
Here for details.
This is defintely going on my Wish list for Christmas
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Just obtained second-hand copies of both volumes of The Monastic Diurnal Revised in excellent condition, the second volume of which is the original hardback edition.
Having looked through the book, I certainly like what I see. I think the typsetting is superior to the OHC Monastic Breviary, which I also have, and the books are sturdily bound.
I hope that this breviary remains in print and available to the general public. On the whole, I like the modern office books based on the ECUSA 1979 BCP such as A Monastic Breviary, The Prayer Book Office and The Monastic Diurnal Revised slightly more than those based on modern C of E offices, such as Celebrating Common Prayer and Common Worship; Daily Prayer. I find the 1979 BCP-derived offices more traditional, yet still fairly modern. In some ways, I even think they are slightly better even than the RC Liturgy of the Hours/Divine Office, as they have retained the traditional office hymns and devotions such as the Angelus and prayers before the office.
DIVINE OFFICE
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Just obtained second-hand copies of both volumes of The Monastic Diurnal Revised in excellent condition, the second volume of which is the original hardback edition.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) Glad to hear it! And glad to know you're out there praying the MDR too. I sent a copy to a solitary in San Diego when she publicly committed herself to a contemplative life as a solitary and decided on the MDR as her daily office. Our nuns of the Order of St Anne pray the MDR in their convent chapel next door to church, starting with 6:30 a.m. Matins/Lauds before they head into the parish church for the 7 a.m. Low Mass, which is also their conventual Mass every day.
Feel free to private-message me if any questions come up as you use the MDR. I use the three BCP-appointed lessons every day at Terce, Sext, and Vespers. What I call Lauds starts at the row of squiggles in "Matins." For some reason they don't call that out as Lauds. It can also be considered a sort of second nocturn of Matins. Interesting how that works.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom S:
Does anyone know anything about The Order of St Luke's Daily Office project? It looks quite interesting - basically an order for the offices but with different books for the different seasons.
They have a page of downloadable examples which seem to follow the basic pattern of morning and evening prayer but with some modern material included too.
This is from members of the United Methodist Church in the USA and looks like a good effort. I've been tempted to purchase the books (Collect All Twelve!) but quickly saw the cost add up, so I've resisted, with the "sour grapes" idea that this has all been done before, so I don't need these. But I suspect it's a fine breviary-in-many-volumes and would be satisfying to pray from.
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kenosis
Shipmate
# 10433
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Posted
Well I've ended up ordering a copy of the current book as I found it cheap on Amazon - but as you say Scott, I can't really afford the whole lot! One thing that's quite attractive is the idea of having all the seasonal material included as part of the office itself as I find it very difficult to let the prayer flow if I'm constantly wondering which page I'm going to have to flip to next! I shall be interested to see what arrives.
At the moment I'm using Celebrating Daily Prayer (for the same reason) with the lectionary for the ECUSA BCP 1979 - a bit of an odd combination for a Brit, but it works for me. The main reason for using the BCP lectionary is that it's available as an actual book (less page flicking again!) and I can't really see Common Worship doing the same thing.
Tom
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kenosis
Shipmate
# 10433
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Posted
Also, ECUSA lets me download their lectionary for free, while CW expects you to pay! ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
Are the BCP 1979 and Common Worship daily lectionaries comprehensive in their coverage of Scripture? I'd prefer to stick to a plan that covers the whole Bible rather than one with omissions.
I currently use a modified version of the M'Cheyne Plan, which goes through the OT in two years and the NT in one year, but at the cost of being a bit of a gallop at times (not least because much of the year's "NT" readings are taken up by the psalms, rather than having a separate daily psalm). It also takes no account at all of the church year. So a comprehensive daily office lectionary would be a welcome alternative.
And don't get me started on lectionaries like that on the (otherwise-excellent) Oremus site, which omits passages that the compiler apparently finds objectionable (eg Ephesians 5:21-end). ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
Posts: 423 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
Are the BCP 1979 and Common Worship daily lectionaries comprehensive in their coverage of Scripture? I'd prefer to stick to a plan that covers the whole Bible rather than one with omissions.
What about one of the older lectionaries used with the 1662 BCP? Do they cover the whole Bible? If so, I might be tempted to use one.
I'm sure someone has figured out what's missing from the 1979 BCP, if anything (I know some verses are). A lot of the missing text can be recovered by routinely reading up to just before the next pericope, including any omitted verses.
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
I've been using the ENGLISH OFFICE with the British 1922 Table of Lessons. I'm not sure if the '22 Table is comprehensive, but the readings are fairly long, so one must be putting quite a dent in if not reading the entire Bible.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom S:
Also, ECUSA lets me download their lectionary for free, while CW expects you to pay!
Whereas we Canucks will let you have it for free here and here. Ours, like the England 1662, takes you through the entire New Testament and nearly all of the OT (with the exception of some obscure and repetitive and "begats"-laden passages).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Patrick
Shipmate
# 305
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Posted
The American 1928 BCP revised lectionary (1945) is quite comprehensive. Touchstone magazine publishes a Daily Devotional Guide edited by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon, an Orthodox priest. The Guide provides for a full reading of the New Testament in one year and of the Old Testament and Apocrypha in two years. The readings are generally based upon the Western liturgical calendar,sometimes upon synagogue use (Song of Songs after Pascha, for instance), with proper texts for the great feasts and Holy Week. Fr. Reardon also provides a daily portion from the Psalter. He provides a structure for daily morning and evening prayer, with litanies and collects, familiar to Anglicans and Lutherans, as well as extensive commentary on the readings.
Posts: 109 | From: Fordham University, Bronx, N.Y. U.S.A. | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom S:
Also, ECUSA lets me download their lectionary for free, while CW expects you to pay!
The CofE's current lectionaries, inclusding the proposed weekday lectionary, are all available for free from links from this webpage
The zipped up RTF files took me less than a second to download.
The Calendar links off here
CW:Daily Prayer is here with links to the whole content of the whole book.
The CW lectionaries are available as a book. I have a copy. There are also helpful combined annual lectionaries printed each year by Church House, with readings from CW, BCP, the alternative psalmody, and the new weekly lectionary (from this year - up to now it was ASB).
Cost 3.99 according to their website.
[ 26. October 2006, 15:16: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I currently use a modified version of the M'Cheyne Plan, which goes through the OT in two years and the NT in one year, but at the cost of being a bit of a gallop at times (not least because much of the year's "NT" readings are taken up by the psalms, rather than having a separate daily psalm). It also takes no account at all of the church year. So a comprehensive daily office lectionary would be a welcome alternative.
Lectionaries and I don't play well together, partially because my brain doesn't like skipping around through different stories (especially when I don't pray the Office every day), and partially because I often won't remember to look up the day's readings before I start the Office, so I have to stop praying and flippy some more, then try to remember how many verses it was and to stop, et cetera.
So I've got my three ribbon bookmarkers in my BCP/NRSV combo (which is v. nice and handy and compact and everything I wanted and expected--- my only beef is the fact the Bible is in teeny-tiny 9pt font!) in the BCP Psalter, in the OT and in the NT. For the psalms, I read the next one of the 30-day sections (no matter whether it's marked MP or EP), and for the OT and NT lesson I read the next chapter.
It's kinda fun right now, I realised I had never read all the books of the Apocrypha so that's my OT lessons for the next while.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
May I ask a broader question about office use and the matter of obedience, for lack of a better term?
As I mentioned above I use the ENGLISH OFFICE with the English 1922 Table of Lessons. I came to them after trying quite a few office schemas over the years, modified any number of ways, and liking them the best.
Now, I'm a member of the ECUSA like many of you. I sometimes feel a little naughty about using an office and a lectionary that is not officially approved by my Bishop or used by my Church for that matter; I guess it's the Catholic in me. Has that come up for any of you who don't use the approved form of Office, nad if so, how do you justify what you do?
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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kenosis
Shipmate
# 10433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The CofE's current lectionaries, inclusding the proposed weekday lectionary, are all available for free from links from this webpage
I stand corrected. When I last checked that page (a couple of years back) it had a message saying that they would give us it for free this year, but we would have to pay after that - I'm glad common sense has prevailed! Are there any plans to produce the full readings in book form?
Tom
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leemc
Apprentice
# 11141
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Lectionaries and I don't play well together, partially because my brain doesn't like skipping around through different stories (especially when I don't pray the Office every day), and partially because I often won't remember to look up the day's readings before I start the Office, so I have to stop praying and flippy some more, then try to remember how many verses it was and to stop, et cetera.[/QB]
It's nice to hear I'm not the only person who has a problem with lectionaries!
I've been using a plan from Zondervan publishing for quite a while now which is designed to take you through the entire Bible in three years. It assigns you a chapter a day, in consecutive order, but alternates OT and NT so you're basically reading one-half an OT book followed by one-half a NT book, etc.
It and other variations can be downloaded here.
It also allows a great deal of flexibility if you want to read more than one chapter a day, or do an OT and a NT reading, etc. Supplement that with some kind of psalter scheme and you've got yourself a very easy to follow lectionary!
Posts: 16 | From: Boston, MA, USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Now, I'm a member of the ECUSA like many of you. I sometimes feel a little naughty about using an office and a lectionary that is not officially approved by my Bishop or used by my Church for that matter; I guess it's the Catholic in me. Has that come up for any of you who don't use the approved form of Office, nad if so, how do you justify what you do?
I go back and forth between the need to pray the same office as my Episcopal parish (BCP 1979, seven-week psalter cycle), and the fact that I'm a Benedictine oblate and feel drawn to pray the fullest form of that office that I can (ideally the full psalter in a week as in the Rule...can't say I've ever accomplished that, though).
I'm sure my bishop would say, "Since you're not under an obligation to pray the BCP office, pray whatever you like." My oblate director says, "Establish a personal rule of prayer, and try to make Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer (Lauds and Vespers) the foundation of that discipline and pray those offices as a minimum, in a form that works best for you." Neither would prescribe an edition or form to use.
A fellow oblate runs a mailing list in which he challenges us not to shoot for the minimum but to aim for the full weekly psalter grudgingly recommended by St Benedict (who would prefer his lazy monks to pray the whole psalter daily).
As a result of my to-ing and fro-ing, I pray less than I should and keep changing forms. I'd love to settle in and feel great about one form and be disciplined about it even when it seems tedious.
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leemc:
I've been using a plan from Zondervan publishing for quite a while now which is designed to take you through the entire Bible in three years.
When I graduated high school I received a copy of Zondervan's Student Bible that had this reading plan (and several of the other plans on that page you linked) as an intergral part of the Bible itself, so I did the 3 year plan in 2 years (one chapter in the AM, one in the PM, and lots of times when I forgot). That's probably the major reason I not only do my lectionary the way I do, but that I now pray the Daily Office.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I'd prefer to stick to a plan that covers the whole Bible rather than one with omissions.
I currently use a modified version of the M'Cheyne Plan, which goes through the OT in two years and the NT in one year, but at the cost of being a bit of a gallop at times. It also takes no account at all of the church year.
Have you obtained your copy of Lutheran Service Book yet? It is unfortunate that the Lutheran Worship all-of-scripture lectionary was not used. They instead use a most-of-scripture approach. It appears that it is sort of harmonized with the church year during the Christmas and Easter Cycles, though.
I've used the exact same Zondervan (don't judge me, please!) lectionary that Spiffy mentioned. It worked very well for me, but I prefer using a lectionary designed for use with the office.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
lukacs,
Bishops are not in the business of "approving" rites for private devotions. It's nobodies business but yours what breviary you use in the privacy of your home.
As Scott says, for those of us who are not (yet) obligated to pray the Daily Office, the fact that we do so at all is just gravy.
Personally, I use the 1959 Prayer Book, but the monastery in my diocese of which I am a probationary associate uses the Monastic Breviary - and that is in worship that is open to the public!
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Thanks for the responses to my side question, which were very helpful. I still feel like a few of the posters on the first DO thread that it's important to pray with your fellow Churchpersons, but then again these threads make it clear that many of us are not praying from the same books anyway.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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John H
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# 9599
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Posted
Thanks for the responses to my lectionary query. The Touchstone daily devotional publication sounds interesting - a daily diet of OT, NT, gospel and psalm, covering the whole of Scripture while also keeping an eye on the church year, is just what I'm aiming for.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
Posts: 423 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
As a result of my to-ing and fro-ing, I pray less than I should and keep changing forms. I'd love to settle in and feel great about one form and be disciplined about it even when it seems tedious.
I know how that feels. I'm really happy with the combo that I'm using: Hymns for P & P, Prayer Book Office (why isn't the Nativity of the BVM in it!) and the Daily Office Book (Year 2). It also means that I have to lug a library on the go; Benedictine Daily Prayer is always a little imp at a corner beckoning.
Someone should smack my butt when I get distracted. Or maybe I should go Ignatian.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ecce Quam Bonum
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# 10884
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Posted
Okay, so here's a little challenge.
I'm leading Morning Prayer (Rite II) on Thursday morning, All Souls' Day.
Strictly BCP service.
How should I tailor it?
I will be taking some text from the anthems of the Burial service. (And probably reading the anthem at the commendation in its entirety--I can't resist the line "yet even at the grave we make our song: Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.")
So what else should I do? What readings do I use?
Thanks!
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"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"
Posts: 168 | From: Sewanee, TN | Registered: Jan 2006
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scopatore segreto
Shipmate
# 11848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Okay, so here's a little challenge.
I'm leading Morning Prayer (Rite II) on Thursday morning, All Souls' Day.
Strictly BCP service.
How should I tailor it?
I will be taking some text from the anthems of the Burial service. (And probably reading the anthem at the commendation in its entirety--I can't resist the line "yet even at the grave we make our song: Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.")
So what else should I do? What readings do I use?
Thanks!
I would suggest Matins and Lauds of the Dead from the Henrican Primer, but I reckon that is not exactly Rite II.
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"Well, if it's a symbol, to hell with it." Flannery O'Connor
Posts: 291 | From: the Christ-haunted South | Registered: Sep 2006
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
I will be taking some text from the anthems of the Burial service....So what else should I do? What readings do I use?
Some suggestions:
Open with 'An Order of Worship for Evening' with the lamp lighting ritual / Phos hilaron. If you wish, substitute the hymn 'Give rest O Christ' (Kontakion (Kiev Chant) Hymn 355?). Jumps back into Evening Prayer II with the psalms of the day.
Alternatively - open without any of the introductory bits; jump right into the first psalm (or antiphon if you can manage antiphons for the psalms). The sparseness actually adds something.
I don't see any 'daily lectionary' readings for All Souls' Day. You could use the ones appointed for the Eucharist or from the burial service; I think no All Souls' is complete without Wisdom 3:1-9. There are many others to choose from for the NT lesson. The burial service has 'tag lines' next to the suggested lessons which saves some flipping through the bible for those of us who don't have it memorized.
Likewise, for psalms you could pilfer from the old Vespers of the Dead - psalm 116, 120, 121, 130, and/or 138 according to my Monastic Diurnal. Use plainsong; instead of the Gloria Patri conclude psalm(s) and canticles with 'Rest eternal * grant unto them O Lord. And let light perpetual * shine upon them.'
Don't know what you've got for music. If you're singing the psalms/canticles to plainsong, it would be great to insert the antiphons from Vespers of the Dead. The Saint Dunstan's Psalter has a lovely little antiphon for the Nunc suitable for congregational singign [if the congregation can read 4-line notation / neumes].
Otherwise, there are hymn paraphrases. The 'New Metrical Psalter' would allow you to fit the canticles (metricized) to a large number of hymn tunes, allowing you to select tunes with the right mood.
Introduce the apostle's creed as in the burial service.
Following the Lord's Prayer you could use the following in place of the usual suffrages, if not likely to offend anyone:
V. From the gate of hell.
R. Deliver their souls, O Lord.
V. May they rest in peace.
R. Amen.
Alternatively, you could then continue with the burial rite [i.e. following the creed] for the case where there is no communion - prayers from 503 ff. Other collects to consider are those for the Departed (#8 in collects section), All Saints' [for the Octave, sort of], and 'Keep watch, dear Lord...'
I don't know if the prayers from the commendation really fit without a body, but you could probably trim bits and make it work. Alternatively, in a slot allowed for a hymn, you could use the Kontakion mentioned above.
I think it is important to keep it somewhat sparse here - it will be easy to add too many things at this point. As with the abrupt entrance, a certain sparseness has a solemn elegance to it, in my opinion.
Following the prayers, conclude immediately with:
V. Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord.
R. And let light perpetual shine upon them.
V. May they rest in peace.
R. Amen.
No dismissal - depart in silence.
Oh - and I forgot you should read the names of the departed if you've kept a list. That could come right at the end of the prayers and conclude with the above, I suppose.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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scopatore segreto
Shipmate
# 11848
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Posted
The familiar Funeral Sentences are a must.
For psalmody, the first Prayer Book retained from the Office of the Dead pss. cxvi Dilexi quoniam , cxxxix Domine probasti, cxlvi Lauda anima mea, and the lovely xlii Quemadmodum, “Like as the hart desireth the waterbrooks, . . .”
The OT lesson really should come from Job. For the NT lesson I’m partial to the “vile body” one from Philippians.
You obviously don’t want the Te Deum as the first Canticle. Don’t know how flexible the current PB is, but the traditional OT Canticle for Lauds of the Dead was that of Ezechias, Ego dixi (Isaiah 38:10 et seq.); this was retained in the 1545 English Dirge. The Benedictus was proper not only to Lauds but to the Latin burial service as well.
For the suffrages, in 1545 they were:
Lord have mercy etc.
Our Father etc.
Lord give thy people eternal rest.
And light perpetual shine on them.
From the gates of hell.
Lord deliver their souls.
I trust to see the goodness of the Lord.
In the land of life.
Lord hear my prayer etc., followed by four rather Catholic collects.
In the Burial Service of 1549 the first versicle and response are replaced by:
Enter not (O Lord) into judgement with thy servant(s).
For in thy sight no living creature shall be justified.
Then follow the more Protestant collects “O Lord, with whom do live” and “O merciful God the Father.”
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"Well, if it's a symbol, to hell with it." Flannery O'Connor
Posts: 291 | From: the Christ-haunted South | Registered: Sep 2006
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J.S. Bach
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# 9633
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Posted
I am thinking about buying The Saint Helena Breviary, Monastic Edition as a Christmas present to myself (the best way to justify spending $75 on a book ). For those who have the book, I have a few questions about how it handles chants. How much of the offices are set to chant (just the psalms and canticles, or other elements too)? Are the chant tones provided directly with the psalms and canticles, or are the tones in a separate area of the book (I am hoping for the former)? Are there different chant settings of the Gospel canticles (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimitis) for particular weeks, seasons, or holy days? Thanks in advance.
Another chant-based office book in the works is The Mundelein Psalter, based on the current RC Liturgy of the Hours. From a phone conversation with a very nice lady at Mundelein’s Liturgical Institute and Internet searches, this book sounds promising. Apparently it will have 1,200 pages but is designed to be held in the hand (4 x 7 inches). Expected publication date is February 2007. I got on the mailing list for ordering information when that becomes available.
Blessings,
J.S. Bach
Posts: 104 | From: Near Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
J.S. Bach, I have a copy of SHB:Monastic Edition and have not regretted the purchase. For now I'll leave the in-depth explanations to the better informed--Scott Knitter, DitzySpike, et al. If nobody shows up in the next day or so I'll do my best to answer, but I'm still getting used to it.
Just so you're not left 'hanging' tonight, off the top of my head, most of the ordinary is also set to chant, although the tones are sometimes at the end of the office instead of with the text. This is the case with the Phos Hilaron, for instance. There are indeed different chant settings for the canticles; I'll have to check my book when I get the chance.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Another chant-based office book in the works is The Mundelein Psalter, based on the current RC Liturgy of the Hours. From a phone conversation with a very nice lady at Mundelein’s Liturgical Institute and Internet searches, this book sounds promising. Apparently it will have 1,200 pages but is designed to be held in the hand (4 x 7 inches). Expected publication date is February 2007. I got on the mailing list for ordering information when that becomes available.
Any idea what a rough price range might be?
Are there any opther music books to chant the psalms from the Grail psalter?
Posts: 434 | Registered: May 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I am thinking about buying The Saint Helena Breviary, Monastic Edition as a Christmas present to myself (the best way to justify spending $75 on a book ). For those who have the book, I have a few questions about how it handles chants. How much of the offices are set to chant (just the psalms and canticles, or other elements too)? Are the chant tones provided directly with the psalms and canticles, or are the tones in a separate area of the book (I am hoping for the former)? Are there different chant settings of the Gospel canticles (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimitis) for particular weeks, seasons, or holy days? Thanks in advance.
The amount of an office that is chanted in the OSH Breviary depends on the rank of the day. In a ferial Matins, only the hymn is chanted. This is consistent with many monastic communities that don't sing much or at all first thing in the morning. On a Class I feast day, though, festal psalms are provided, and these are chanted according to the tones provided with the proper antiphons of the day. When you could possibly need chant pointing, it is provided. At Diurnum, I think everything can be chanted, including the short lesson. At Vespers, same thing, although the longer BCP lesson would probably not be chanted routinely. Compline is chanted once the confession and absolution are done. A quite comprehensive exposition of the psalm tones and their pointing is provided in the back of the book. Get one!
Scott, who just got his copy of the new CSF Office Book and finds he may be allergic to the glue or ink or something...whew! Wonder how the CSF sisters are handling this.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Another chant-based office book in the works is The Mundelein Psalter, based on the current RC Liturgy of the Hours. From a phone conversation with a very nice lady at Mundelein’s Liturgical Institute and Internet searches, this book sounds promising. Apparently it will have 1,200 pages but is designed to be held in the hand (4 x 7 inches). Expected publication date is February 2007. I got on the mailing list for ordering information when that becomes available.
It's being published to facilitate the public singing of the Liturgy of the Hours, yet it's going to be available in a "limited printing," and one has to phone a lady to find out more about it. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Somehow I don't expect this book, however good, will have parishioners across the USA chanting Morning and Evening Prayer together. Just a few, perhaps mainly during conferences.
The way daily-office liturgy publishing has been run and controlled is, IMHO, the single main factor explaining why public offices are practically unknown in RC parishes.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Are there different chant settings of the Gospel canticles (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimitis) for particular weeks, seasons, or holy days?
Blessings,
J.S. Bach
There are three introductions to the chant tones--the simple tone, the canticle tone, and the solemn tone. The closings to the tones remain the same for all, although there are many, many different alternatives. Little is left to choice; it is pretty much decided for you. The simple tone is the norm for psalms, the canticle tone for the Benedictus and Magnificat, and the solemn tone for those canticles at appointed times. Other then that, there are not really any specific to particular holy days. Nunc Dimittis right now is using the same antiphon tone (Guide us waking...) as is used in Lutheran Book of Worship at Compline, only disguised by neumes. The chant tone for the rest is less complicated than in LBW, though. As Scott pointed out, there is a good background section that assumes absolutely no knowledge about Gregorian neumes, although knowledge about music is essential.
The collects from Lesser Feasts and Fasts are pretty much included, but only the contemporary language versions, and they are updated in the sisters' inclusive-gender manner. The inclusive language is a bit jarring at first, but I have grown to appreciate it. There are other minor details, for instance never using the doxology to the Lord's Prayer, that also take some acclimation time. But overall it's a good four-office text (Matins, Diurnum, Vespers, Compline). The proper for the church year is (for the most part) handled by providing approximately one page for each Sunday, on which are found an antiphon with music for the canticle for each year (A,B,C), and an OSH-style updated collect. Antiphons with chant and occasionally some other materials (little chapter, for instance) for some of the 'biggie' holy days and major feasts are found along with the collects from LFF. Otherwise, one can just use the weekday general antiphons provided in-text with the canticles.
The Psalter is very morning-heavy, but as Scott pointed out the Matins office is largely spoken. The office of Vespers is a little shorter, and of course Diurnum and Compline are much shorter than the other two.
You will need a Bible and a lectionary (and a book of readings from the early church if you so desire) as none of these materials are provided in SHB:Monastic.
The order of the major offices takes some acclimation as well. It has been mentioned earlier in the thread that it goes:
Psalm
First Reading
First Canticle (a great and varied selection)
[Second Reading]
Hymn (many different tone options)
Second Canticle (Ben. or Mag.)
Buy the book. I've been down this road, and you won't be satisfied until you see it for yourself. Be warned, it took me a lot of study before I was ready to seriously consider using it for anything other than reference, paper weight. (Bench press might be more appropriate in this case!)
If you still need clarification please do not hesitate to respond. And to anyone else, please correct anything I may have misstated!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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