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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
DitzySpike
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:

The order of the major offices takes some acclimation as well. It has been mentioned earlier in the thread that it goes:
Psalm
First Reading
First Canticle (a great and varied selection)
[Second Reading]
Hymn (many different tone options)
Second Canticle (Ben. or Mag.)

I find doing the canticle immediately after the Psalms more natural when only one reading is done.
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J.S. Bach
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Thank you, Martin and Scott, for providing such detailed answers to my questions about The Saint Helena Breviary, Monastic Edition. I had been wary of the inclusive language but, after having perused the Personal Edition, found the sisters' approach to be more thoughtful than other attempts (e.g., no God-self to be found anywhere). The Monastic Edition sounds wonderful, with a lot of attention to detail. As far as the chants go, I actually prefer to have the tones assigned rather than choose them myself. I need to learn the chant notation and got some good pointers earlier in this thread. Fortunately, I'm a strong choral singer. I still expect to work at it, though.

Blessings,
J.S. Bach

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DitzySpike
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quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
As far as the chants go, I actually prefer to have the tones assigned rather than choose them myself. I need to learn the chant notation and got some good pointers earlier in this thread. Fortunately, I'm a strong choral singer. I still expect to work at it, though.

Blessings,
J.S. Bach

The pointing of the Diurnum and Vespers Psalms are excellent: it is not too complex and gives a singer ample confidence once she is familiar with the system. It also allows the text to be sung to different tones as required by the seasonal and temporale antiphons.

It does not take long to ease into the inclusive language; except I still can't get over the feast of 'Christ in Majesty'. [Smile]

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J.S. Bach
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quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Another chant-based office book in the works is The Mundelein Psalter, based on the current RC Liturgy of the Hours. From a phone conversation with a very nice lady at Mundelein’s Liturgical Institute and Internet searches, this book sounds promising. Apparently it will have 1,200 pages but is designed to be held in the hand (4 x 7 inches). Expected publication date is February 2007. I got on the mailing list for ordering information when that becomes available.

Any idea what a rough price range might be?
I asked about getting a price on the book, even an estimate, but the lady said something about them still deciding what it would be. I expect to see a price in the mailing and will post details once it arrives.

Blessings,
J.S. Bach

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J.S. Bach
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Somehow I don't expect this book, however good, will have parishioners across the USA chanting Morning and Evening Prayer together. Just a few, perhaps mainly during conferences.

We're discussing the forthcoming Mundelein Psalter. Alas, I think you are right about this book's prospects for increasing public offices in RC churches. Outside of monasteries, the only instance I've heard of in the Washington, DC area was during a visit of Pope John Paul II. They held an elaborate Morning Prayer service at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, complete with a massive choir. (Incidentally, I heard that the pope broke from protocol and, instead of joining the procession down the nave, first insisted on going back to shake hands with the conductor and several singers as well!)

J.S. Bach

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John H
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Over the past week, I've gone right back to basics with the office, and used the 1662 Book of Common Prayer offices. I get the impression from this thread that these are seen as a bit passé, but what I've been appreciating is:

1. The simplicity.

2. The language (natch).

3. Inclusion of the creed in each office.

4. I love evening prayer (my upbringing as a choirboy coming through, here!). As I only have time for one (at most) "after dark" office, not having to choose between the Mag and Nunc is good, too. In fact, the evening prayer service works well whether earlier in the evening or as an extended form of Compline last thing at night.

5. The general air of straightforward, simple, sober, biblically-centred devotion.

6. The threefold collects at the end of each office. The combination of weekly collect with collects appropriate for the time of day works so well, and I can't understand why modern offices have such an insistence (even being stressed in the rubrics in CW:DP, IIRC) on a single collect.

7. The size of the book!!!

I dare say I'll find myself getting exasperated by the lack of variety before long, though it helps that my prayer book has Hymns A&M Revised bound into it, so I can replace one of the canticles with a hymn if I feel like it.

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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."

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John H
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Oh, and:

8. The unexpurgated version of the Venite. I always thought the whole point of starting with Psalm 95 was the appropriateness of "Today, if you hear his voice, harden not your hearts" to the start of the day's devotions.

--------------------
"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by John H:
Over the past week, I've gone right back to basics with the office, and used the 1662 Book of Common Prayer offices.

[Smile] It must be a Lutheran thing, as I too find myself drawn to the simplicity of the Anglican office. Because of my US location, I use the 1979 book and go with either Rite I (trad lang) or Rite II (modern lang). When using these offices, it seems as though the bulk of the attention is paid to the Biblical readings (Psalms, Lessons, Canticles) and prayers--a back-to-basics sort of thing. And who can possibly complain about the beauty of BCP texts like the general thanksgiving, the two confessions of sin, and the prayer of humble access? Not me! If I were an Anglican priest or catechist, I would force all catechumens to learn these by heart just as they learn the Lord's Prayer, the Creeds, and the Ten Commandments.

Because I do become exasperated by the lack of variety, and refuse to shell out $$$ for The Prayer Book Office [Biased] , I alternate breviaries based on their Psalm cycles and their appropriateness for various times of the church year. Also, since Lutheran churches rarely recognize minor festivals or commemorations, giving them added emphasis in the offices by using extra (or festive) canticles, additional psalms, readings, hymns, and prayers seems appropriate.

DitzySpike, I like your SHB idea to use the canticle after the psalms when there is only one reading.

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John H
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It must be a Lutheran thing

Actually, it's probably just an Anglican thing in my case, as my upbringing is solidly C of E, and I've only been a Lutheran for about three years.

But I agree entirely that there is nothing for Lutherans to object to in the BCP offices, and precious little in the rest of the BCP*. It's not something I've felt the slightest need to leave behind.

* I'm talking 1662, here. I'm a bit "Prayer Book Society" when it comes to the 1979 book: i.e. it's a Book of Alternative Services, not a true Book of Common Prayer in the Cranmerian tradition. But don't tell anyone round here that I said that - it'll only lead to trouble. [Biased]

[ 03. November 2006, 12:48: Message edited by: John H ]

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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I've only been a Lutheran for about three years.

Welcome to the club, anyway, even if you are on the opposite end of the spectrum!

quote:
* i.e. it's a Book of Alternative Services, not a true Book of Common Prayer in the Cranmerian tradition.
If you'll check my previous post, you will notice that never once did I call the 1979 book the 'Book of Common Prayer.' I personally don't object to that use (for instance, the Bible is the Bible, no matter what the version may be), I've just learned that it is a hot-button issue here, mostly with those in the UK. There are only so many ways one can name a book of worship, as we Lutherans know all too well!

[ 03. November 2006, 12:58: Message edited by: Martin L ]

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I'm a bit "Prayer Book Society" when it comes to the 1979 book: i.e. it's a Book of Alternative Services, not a true Book of Common Prayer in the Cranmerian tradition.

[Overused]
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by John H:
* I'm talking 1662, here. I'm a bit "Prayer Book Society" when it comes to the 1979 book: i.e. it's a Book of Alternative Services, not a true Book of Common Prayer in the Cranmerian tradition. But don't tell anyone round here that I said that - it'll only lead to trouble. [Biased]

As well it should. It's our BCP, and we use it as such, sniffs from overseas notwithstanding. Reserve some sniffs for the Church of Ireland. [Razz]
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John H
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I wasn't sniffing, I was sighing. The loss of a common prayer-book tradition has been a great loss to Anglicanism (even though I do like a lot of the modern liturgies).

But of course, as it says in some book or other, "it is not necessary that traditions and ceremonies be in all places one or utterly alike", and "every particular or national Church hath authority to ordain, change, and abolish ceremonies or rites of the Church ordained only by man's authority, so that all things be done to edifying", so I'll say no more about it. [Smile]

--------------------
"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."

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Olaf
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And now to change gears entirely...

Does anyone actually use the new canticles from Supplementary Liturgical Materials (for the offices or for the eucharist)?

Churches? Individuals? Priests? Deacons? Monastics? The parish cat-feeder?

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Divine Office
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Here's one for the Latinists.

I obtained my copy of the reprinted 1961 Diurnale Romanum today, which has all the hours of the traditional breviary in Latin except Matins. It's quite nicely produced.

My bookseller obtained my copy from Carmel Books (they used to sell books online but no longer do so), but it is also available from Southwell Books, from whom it may be purchased online at £39.95.

Who actually reprinted the book is still a mystery, though. My bookseller was told twice that the information is confidential, although it is likely that it was produced under SSPX auspices.

So is there a top secret printing works somewhere in Europe producing classical liturgical texts?

The mind boggles!!!

DIVINE OFFICE

The mind boggles!!!

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I obtained my copy of the reprinted 1961 Diurnale Romanum today, which has all the hours of the traditional breviary in Latin except Matins. It's quite nicely produced.

I just got my copy of Volume II of the new Antiphonale Monasticum from Solesmes. Volume II is the Psalter. Volume I was the Temporale, and I think Volume III will be the Sanctorale. This all replaces the fat 1934 Antiphonale.

Would love to have the introduction and rubrics in English...I may have a go at translating it.

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Olaf
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Bump

JS Bach, have you obtained your copy of St. Helena Breviary yet?

Divine Office, I can't find anything about the '61 Diurnale Romanum from my usual (fairly resourceful) sources, but I suspect the same as you (SSPX).

Scott, have you tackled saying the offices from your Latin Solesmes Psalter, or tackled the translations?

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Hoosierpalian
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I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S. I'd also love to be able to go to church with my Roman Catholic friends more often without the awkwardness at Communion.

Another one for the Latinists: I've had several looks at the Latin translation of the 1979 US Book of Common Prayer, and I'm not sure how it would ever be practical to round up enough Latinistas to have the service be in a language understanded of the people, but I fairly *swooned* when I saw the Trisagion in Greek! "Agios Athanatos, eleison imas" just has an eternal ring to it.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S.

But Catholics are all about indulgences, and one can't receive an indulgence for the offices. It would be far more likely to find a joint saying of the rosary or a mass.

quote:
...but I fairly *swooned* when I saw the Trisagion in Greek! "Agios Athanatos, eleison imas" just has an eternal ring to it.
That's an easy one--use it at Pentecost under the "Exotic languages are fair game at Pentecost" clause. Perhaps a very Anglo-Catholic priest could even be persuaded to use Latin for parts of the mass.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S.

But Catholics are all about indulgences, and one can't receive an indulgence for the offices. It would be far more likely to find a joint saying of the rosary or a mass.
I think the more fundamental problem is the lack of clearly laid out, affordable office books designed for groups to use. The BCP works better for offices because of its consecutive psalter and the fact that it doesn't have to contain the readings themselves nor the thousands of responsories that the RC LotH has (not to mention the familiarity as a congregational prayer book from its use Sunday by Sunday). If the RC office could lose the responsories, give each psalm once in an easily referenced contiguous section, and have a lectionary citing readings that can be looked up by the lector in a Bible or separate lectionary, pastors might be more motivated to lead and/or promote the communal praying of the Divine Office in churches.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I think the more fundamental problem is the lack of clearly laid out, affordable office books designed for groups to use.

And that's the truth! (Responsories-- [Roll Eyes] ) There doesn't really exist a decent multi-purpose Catholic breviary-psalter-missal. Most parishes around here provide Gather hymnals and Seasonal Missalettes in the pews, but I don't think I've ever once seen someone using them (well, maybe the cantor). Gather Comprehensive does contain Morning and Evening Prayer orders, right up front, but I've never seen them used.

The good news is that EWTN's coverage of papal offices is increasing. On the Saturday before Advent, they will most likely televise the Pope's First Vespers of Advent 1, beginning the new liturgical year. Perhaps some priests will watch this and decide to replicate it. They also televise the Pentecost Vigil (mostly vespers, IIRC).

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
The good news is that EWTN's coverage of papal offices is increasing. On the Saturday before Advent, they will most likely televise the Pope's First Vespers of Advent 1, beginning the new liturgical year. Perhaps some priests will watch this and decide to replicate it. They also televise the Pentecost Vigil (mostly vespers, IIRC).

What EWTN and others need to broadcast in addition to these big events is well-done ferial-day offices and Masses as an example of how things can be done.
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Choirboy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
...but I fairly *swooned* when I saw the Trisagion in Greek! "Agios Athanatos, eleison imas" just has an eternal ring to it.

That's an easy one--use it at Pentecost under the "Exotic languages are fair game at Pentecost" clause. Perhaps a very Anglo-Catholic priest could even be persuaded to use Latin for parts of the mass.
Or go somewhere where they do the Reproaches on Good Friday, where the Trisagion in Greek is an official part of the Western liturgy.

And I suppose some flavors of Orthodox must do this in Greek. Don't know about those places whose usual liturgical languages is Church Slavonic.... [Biased]

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
What EWTN and others need to broadcast in addition to these big events is well-done ferial-day offices and Masses as an example of how things can be done.

Indeed! I seem to recall a time when they broadcasted at least Vespers. It was perhaps during the most recent Nine Days of Mourning, in honor of JPII. They sat in the choir stalls and took turns leading. I just wish they'd use that beautiful church for masses; you know, the one they use for Benediction.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Indeed! I seem to recall a time when they broadcasted at least Vespers. It was perhaps during the most recent Nine Days of Mourning, in honor of JPII. They sat in the choir stalls and took turns leading. I just wish they'd use that beautiful church for masses; you know, the one they use for Benediction.

I think YouTube, Google Video, and other such services have a lot of potential for broadcasting excellent liturgy far and wide. I'd love to see parishes and monastic communities make videos available of straightforwardly celebrated daily offices and Masses. These would not be substitutes for personal attendance but informative introductions to those who have never attended such services, or those who would like to do them well where they are but need to know how to do them well.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I think YouTube, Google Video, and other such services have a lot of potential for broadcasting excellent liturgy far and wide.

Ehem...Cough...Griswold... [Biased] ...Low Mass...Cough...Daily Office...Cough...Benediction...Pontifical Mass...Cough...Highest Church in Biretta Belt...Hint Hint

[Cool]

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I think YouTube, Google Video, and other such services have a lot of potential for broadcasting excellent liturgy far and wide.

Ehem...Cough...Griswold... [Biased] ...Low Mass...Cough...Daily Office...Cough...Benediction...Pontifical Mass...Cough...Highest Church in Biretta Belt...Hint Hint

[Cool]

How did you know that from my torchbearing post at the north end of the altar this morning, I was figuring out camera positions and angles? [Big Grin]
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Hoosierpalian
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quote:
Ehem...Cough...Griswold... ...Low Mass...Cough...Daily Office...Cough...Benediction...Pontifical Mass...Cough...Highest Church in Biretta Belt...Hint Hint

I know this was on another thread. Did we ever determine where the Highest Church the in Biretta Belt was? Did a church in Illinois win or was it Wisconsin? My home parish has several folks who grew up in the Diocese of Northern Indiana and remember several Fort Wayne churches being quite high back in the 50s and 60s.

But back to daily offices redux, last night I went to a wall-to-wall plainchant Evensong at St. John's in the Village in Baltimore that was heavenly. More swooning.

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The Silent Acolyte

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Hoosierpalian, How many attended? Did it seem like the choir were playing church so they could experience the aesthetics of singing the repetoire? Did you chat with any after evensong? Any foxes?

I had the piss taken out of me on a, by now, long gone thread because I suspected this. And St. John's was my prime example in mind. Despite my lack of repentence at the time, I'd like to shown wrong.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I know this was on another thread. Did we ever determine where the Highest Church the in Biretta Belt was? Did a church in Illinois win or was it Wisconsin? My home parish has several folks who grew up in the Diocese of Northern Indiana and remember several Fort Wayne churches being quite high back in the 50s and 60s.

Ascension's reputation (and widespread recognition) is 'nose-bleed' high enough that it makes a serious contender for the title.

I am admittedly not knowledgeable about every parish in the biretta belt, but I doubt there are many that consistently worship in as high a fashion as them.

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Hoosierpalian
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quote:
Hoosierpalian, How many attended? Did it seem like the choir were playing church so they could experience the aesthetics of singing the repetoire? Did you chat with any after evensong? Any foxes?

Busted! OK, Silent Acolyte, you got me there! I was the only pewsitter at the service. In attendance were an officiant and a choir of two. Four of us all together. The officiant greeted me afterwards and invited me to come back next week for the monthly choral evensong.

But it did alleviate my homesickness for our "homegrown" Wednesday night Evensongs in Indiana. The rector, the organist, and the usual 12-16 suspects show up weekly for a sung Evening Prayer II. We chant the Psalm in Anglican chant, but sing the hymn versions of the canticles. Then we all go out to eat afterwards, with a potluck dinner on the fourth Wednesday of the month. As you can see, the two services are highly dissimilar, but since I now attend a low church establishment way out in the 'burbs of Baltimore, it did feel nice to have an evening service to go to at all.

I seem to recall seeing on another thread that you attended Advent when you lived in Baltimore. Would you recommend giving them a try for Sunday mornings?

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
...but [we] sing the hymn versions of the canticles.

[Disappointed]
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malik3000
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S.

But Catholics are all about indulgences, and one can't receive an indulgence for the offices. It would be far more likely to find a joint saying of the rosary or a mass.
I think the more fundamental problem is the lack of clearly laid out, affordable office books designed for groups to use. The BCP works better for offices because of its consecutive psalter and the fact that it doesn't have to contain the readings themselves nor the thousands of responsories that the RC LotH has (not to mention the familiarity as a congregational prayer book from its use Sunday by Sunday). If the RC office could lose the responsories, give each psalm once in an easily referenced contiguous section, and have a lectionary citing readings that can be looked up by the lector in a Bible or separate lectionary, pastors might be more motivated to lead and/or promote the communal praying of the Divine Office in churches.
You hit the nail on the head, Scott.

--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Hoosierpalian
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We're working on the canticles, though. Two parishioners remember how it was done back in the day and are militating for chanted canticles. Personally, I think plainsong would be the way to go, but the guy from Rhode Island is urging us to put in the extra time to learn them in Anglican chant. We just *love* the Jesuit setting for the Ecce nunc, so not sure how we could give that up. Something about that "sicilienne" rhythm really gives it added meaning. (Now where's the tongue-in-cheek smiley?)
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
You hit the nail on the head, Scott.

Thanks. I was just thinking about how the public praying of the Daily Office works at Ascension, Chicago (where I'm the Monday Evening Prayer officiant):

Participants enter for the 6 p.m. Evening Prayer on a Monday. They take a seat and take note of the hymn board, which says this:

PENTECOST
PSS 77
79
MAG
NUNC

They pick up a Book of Common Prayer and either an offering envelope or parish brochure with which to mark Psalm 77 in the BCP. They then turn to the opening versicle of Daily Evening Prayer, Rite II, and wait for the officiant to enter and begin. The officiant, vested in cassock and surplice, enters, crosses him/herself with holy water at the door, genuflects in front of the bottom chancel step, and moves to a place between a prayer desk and stool set against the front of the front pew on the south (right) side of the church, facing north, and begins. When we flip to the psalm, the makeshift bookmark moves to where we left the Evening Prayer order. We easily move through the service. At the end, we flip to the inside back cover for the Angelus or Regina coeli. That's it.

First-timers pick up a single sheet of simple instructions for where the service is found in the BCP and the basics of how it works.

For today's Morning Prayer, the hymn board read:

PENTECOST
Ps 78
1-39
CANT 13
16

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scopatore segreto
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S.

But Catholics are all about indulgences, and one can't receive an indulgence for the offices. It would be far more likely to find a joint saying of the rosary or a mass.
I think the more fundamental problem is the lack of clearly laid out, affordable office books designed for groups to use. The BCP works better for offices because of its consecutive psalter and the fact that it doesn't have to contain the readings themselves nor the thousands of responsories that the RC LotH has (not to mention the familiarity as a congregational prayer book from its use Sunday by Sunday).
"In my day," as my late grandmother liked to say, the better missals had a section for Sunday and feastday Vespers. The psalms were fixed, so it didn't take up much room and was easy to negotiate; no extra book needed.

But Sunday and feastday Vespers, unlike in "the old country" (Grandma again), was never the norm in the US, AKA the Irish Mission: too Anglican-like!

I hate to disappoint Martin L, but the regular recitation of the Office was indulgenced, as were the prayers before and after it (the "womb and paps" one). I think it's rather the "Mass is required, nothing else is" mentality that led to mass being the only regular service ever offered in most American RC parish churches. Strangely, this disease seems to have been passed to the Episcopalians.

--------------------
"Well, if it's a symbol, to hell with it." Flannery O'Connor

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Ecce Quam Bonum
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Maybe it's just a glitch or something, but does anyone know what has happened to the Anglican Breviary website?

Umm...

--------------------
"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by scopatore segreto:
I hate to disappoint Martin L, but the regular recitation of the Office was indulgenced, as were the prayers before and after it (the "womb and paps" one). I think it's rather the "Mass is required, nothing else is" mentality that led to mass being the only regular service ever offered in most American RC parish churches. Strangely, this disease seems to have been passed to the Episcopalians.

I'm not disappointed. As soon as I clicked the post button I suspected somebody would be around to correct me! One of the best things about Ecclesiantics is the education received about many different faith traditions, perspectives, and world views. And we're able to do it in a peaceful manner.

I've been thinking about the offices in Roman Catholic churches. There is one time a year when they are not hard to find, at least around here--Holy Week. IIRC, GIA publishing has a fairly good publication that provides the offices for Holy Week and Triduum.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Maybe it's just a glitch or something, but does anyone know what has happened to the Anglican Breviary website?

Umm...

It won't work for me either, so it's not your computer. If you need to see the main page, you can search "Anglican Breviary" on Yahoo and look at the cached page.

If you are fulfilling an office need, you can always use Mission St. Clare in the meantime.

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Ecce Quam Bonum
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Maybe it's just a glitch or something, but does anyone know what has happened to the Anglican Breviary website?

Umm...

It won't work for me either, so it's not your computer. If you need to see the main page, you can search "Anglican Breviary" on Yahoo I'm quite taken care of, though, and I have myand look at the cached page.

If you are fulfilling an office need, you can always use Mission St. Clare in the meantime.

Thanks for verifying that for me, Martin L. I didn't need it for any office requirements. I have my AB and myriad other breviaries here with me (it pays to be prepared!). But I did need the website for something; thanks for reminding me of the existence of the cache.

I certainly hope that it's only a temporary outage and not indicative of any larger problems.

--------------------
"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I was just thinking about how the public praying of the Daily Office works at Ascension, Chicago.

Do you have a designated person to post the numbers on the board, or is it the officiant's responsibility?

Also, let us know about Bp. Griswold's liturgy tomorrow if you attend. (Maybe he will have company!)

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I was just thinking about how the public praying of the Daily Office works at Ascension, Chicago.

Do you have a designated person to post the numbers on the board, or is it the officiant's responsibility?

Also, let us know about Bp. Griswold's liturgy tomorrow if you attend. (Maybe he will have company!)

The officiant is responsible for the hymn board having the correct information on it; I usually do any changes at 5:40 p.m. just after I turn the lights on and open the doors to the street. Then I set my books and vest to be ready by 6.

The evening officiants often set the board up for Morning Prayer so it's one less thing for the morning officiant to do to be ready by 6:40 a.m. (ugh!)

BTW, in my example, the psalm numbers and canticle numbers should line up; the second of each set flew over to the left when I posted. Let's try this CODE thingy:
code:
  
PENTECOST
PS 119
97-120
CANT 11
16

And we're ready for Bp Griswold in the morning.

Alas, I cannot get downtown for his Mass tomorrow (7 a.m. at Ascension, Chicago) due to work. There will be a good turnout, though, of parishioners plus the Sisters of St Anne (it's their conventual Mass each day).

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The Silent Acolyte

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Scott Knitter,

That Psalm-on-the-Hymnboard arrangement always has me completely flummoxed when I read the office at your place. I've never seen it any place else. And I always forget that's what your crowd does, expecting someone to speak the information.

Most places, when they see a stranger, will announce the local customs (antiphonal/responsive) and variable bits either immediately before the beginning of the office or right before the variable psalm or canticle. I prefer the former, because it upsets the flow of the office less, but am perfectly happy with the latter.

Things work out when I visit, if I am the only person in the congregation, because things come to a grinding halt without my participation, and sister has tell me anyway. But, if there is but one local in the congregation, then I have to step out of my pew and scamper over to that local-in-the-know.

Has any stranger ever told the administration how much he likes this? It seems an unwelcoming, idiosyncratic practice that ought to be stopped.

TSA

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Has any stranger ever told the administration how much he likes this? It seems an unwelcoming, idiosyncratic practice that ought to be stopped.

It (leaving visitors to figure out what to do) is not a practice at Ascension. Officiants need to realize when instructions are needed and not be so rigid as to refuse to help people participate. Those who do refuse to give any instructions are being jerks.

Sometimes it's as simple as saying the word "Together," just before starting recitation of the Phos hilaron (if it's clear the visitor is on that page from a previous instruction); sometimes it requires a quick chat about what we're going to do with the psalms and then not worrying if it doesn't go perfectly.

What's not OK is arrogance and unwelcoming. I apologize for any unpleasant experiences you've had! We do have one officiant whose approach I can't stand, and I don't attend certain services if I know he's going to be officiant or acolyte. Wonder if you encountered him. [Ultra confused]

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The Silent Acolyte

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Scott Knitter, I've been around the block enough times so I'm rarely discomfitted by odd practices. I like your crowd just fine and would never hesitate to return next time I come to Chicago. Besides, places that manage a public daily office are rare and deserve all the support they can get. Cheers!
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RCD
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quote:
Originally posted by scopatore segreto:
I hate to disappoint Martin L, but the regular recitation of the Office was indulgenced, as were the prayers before and after it (the "womb and paps" one). I think it's rather the "Mass is required, nothing else is" mentality that led to mass being the only regular service ever offered in most American RC parish churches. Strangely, this disease seems to have been passed to the Episcopalians.

While many aspects of the Office would have been indulgenced I do not think that the prayer Sacrosancte was an indulgence in the way most people think of indulgences. It supplied defects committed in the recitation of the Office.

Another thing I thought about concerning the lack of a daily Office among RC's is the complexity of the older Office. Trying to recite something keeping in mind the commemorations and the different ways of commemorating is sometimes quite a task.

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Ecce Quam Bonum
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quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
While many aspects of the Office would have been indulgenced I do not think that the prayer Sacrosancte was an indulgence in the way most people think of indulgences. It supplied defects committed in the recitation of the Office.

Forgive me my ignorance, but could someone provide the text of this prayer, please? I would be interested to see how it reads.

Thanks!

--------------------
"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"

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RCD
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Forgive me my ignorance, but could someone provide the text of this prayer, please? I would be interested to see how it reads.

Thanks!

Sacrosancte et individuae Trinitati, crucifixi Domini nostri Jesu Christi humanitati, beatissimae et gloriosissimae semperque Virginis Mariae foecundae integritati, et omnium Sanctorum universitati sit sempiterna laus, honor, virtus et gloria ab omni creatura, nobisque remisso omnium peccatorum, per infinita saecule saeculorum. Amen.

V. Beata viscera Mariae Virginis, quae portaverunt aeterni Patris Filium.
R. Et beata ubera, quae lactaverunt Christum Dominum.

Pater Noster.....
Ave Maria....

To the most holy and undivided Trinity, to the Humanity of our Crucified Lord Jesus Christ, to the fruitful virginity of the most blessed and glorious Mary ever Virgin, and to the whole company of saints, be for ever praise, honour, power, and glory from every creature; and to us be remission of all our sins, world without end. Amen.

V. Blessed is the womb of Mary the Virgin, which bore the Son of the Eternal Father.
R. And blessed are the breasts (paps) which gave suck to Christ the Lord.

Our Father....
Hail Mary....

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scopatore segreto
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Forgive me my ignorance, but could someone provide the text of this prayer, please? I would be interested to see how it reads.

Thanks!

I left my Horae at home because it's raining out, but www.breviary.net has the text: there's a link at the end of the page for each Hour (didn't want to post it in case their English is copyrighted).

--------------------
"Well, if it's a symbol, to hell with it." Flannery O'Connor

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Most places, when they see a stranger, will announce the local customs (antiphonal/responsive) and variable bits either immediately before the beginning of the office or right before the variable psalm or canticle. I prefer the former, because it upsets the flow of the office less, but am perfectly happy with the latter.
TSA

The Episcopal parish in my community uses the hymn board arrangement, too, probably emulating what they've seen done at Ascension!

I always have trouble with the Invitatory Antiphon at Morning Prayer. In my Lutheran tradition, the leader says his/her part, then everyone responds the "O come let us worship him" part. When visiting spoken MPs at Episcopal churches, I usually get a comical glance when I respond with the part after the : by accident.

Typically, I just go with the flow and do whatever is appropriate to me--unison for invitatory and canticles, verse-by-verse alternation for the psalms, join in with the General Thanksgiving or Prayer of St. John Chrysostom (when used). I've never been booed out of the daily office before (to my knowledge).

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