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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
Olaf
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Tom, lukacs, and Ricardus, welcome to the Daily Offices Thread, aka The Least Controversial Ecclesiantics Thread!

Tom, perhaps writing one yourself would be the best idea. It shouldn't be too difficult as most of the verses are similar in length. Just divide them up by 30, and then by the number of offices a day you do. I think if you do two offices a day you'll end up with around 40 verses each, but don't quote me on it.

I have a survey question myself. As the liturgical year is starting soon, I am having trouble settling on a lectionary to use.

What is everybody else using?

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Knopwood
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My choice seems to be relatively unpopular. I use the Daily Office Lectionary found in the Canadian Prayer Book of 1959. It purports to cover virtually the entire Bible (with the exception of some of the more arcane OT passages).
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I have a survey question myself. As the liturgical year is starting soon, I am having trouble settling on a lectionary to use. What is everybody else using?

With just about any office among the several I can't decide between, the common thread is my use of the 1979 BCP (USA) lectionary. This works with the St Helena Breviary and the Monastic Diurnal Revised, and the new CSF Office Book.
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Magic Wand
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
Reading the psalms in order makes no more sense than singing the hymnal in order when you think about it.

But, um, most of the historical schemas for the recitation of the Psalter (Roman, Benedictine) consisted of reading the Psalms in order over the course of a week, divided between Matins and Vespers. So it's very traditional, even if it doesn't "make sense."
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Lou Poulain
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I started praying Morning Prayer at the beginning of Advent last year using the on-line resource from Mission Saint Clare, which is the Daily Office BCP 1979. So I began w/ daily lectionary, year B. I will continue thru 2007 using the SHB and same lectionary, then look at options and make a decision after I've experienced a full two-year cycle.

Lou

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Amazing Grace

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom S:
At the moment I'm using the BCP order for working my way through the psalter - ie I get through the whole thing each month. This is the style that best suits me, but I am finding it a bit draining when one day there seems to be an awful lot to get through, and on other days it's quite thin. Does anyone know of any decent alternatives that cover the psalter in order over a similiar period, but are a bit more consistent in how much is covered each day?

Maybe should write one myself...

Is there some link to this order online so that I may see how it compares to the American BCP ordering?

My first attempt at daily devotions were reading the Psalter through on the thirty-day cycle appointed in the 1979 ECUSA BCP. I read morning and evening at the same time, and it did seem to be about as even as it could be given the varying length of the psalms.

Charlotte

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Knopwood
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I use the two month cycle option provided in the Prayer Book as an alternative to working through the Psalter every month.
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Spiffy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
Reading the psalms in order makes no more sense than singing the hymnal in order when you think about it.

No, but it sure is fun! My choir does this twice a year, to familiarize us with different hymns.

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leemc
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There seem to be two schools of thought on the use of the Psalter in daily prayer (at least) - one aiming for comprehensive coverage, the other aiming for "appropriateness" (to season, time of day, etc.). I notice that Celebrating Common Prayer, for instance, doesn't make provision for the use of the entire Psalter on the grounds that some psalms aren't "appropriate" for Christian worship (meaning, I take it, the cursing Psalms among others).

I can see the advantage of both approaches - on the one hand there's something to be said for coverning the whole Psalter, darn it. On the other, a more selective use of psalms might make it easire to enter more deeply into the selected psalms, since they would presumably be repeated more often. I'm a bit of a waffler about this.

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kenosis
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Wow - thanks for so many replies.

The BCP 1979 order and BCP 1662 order are the same as far as I can see.

I like the Canadian two monthly cycle, and I might think about using that.

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J.S. Bach
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My copy of The Saint Helena Breviary, Monastic Edition has arrived. From a quick scan-through, I'm impressed by both the depth and range of content. It will be interesting figuring out how to mark my place, especially with Advent starting on Sunday. I might put little tabs/stickies to mark the beginnings of each office and the canticles and then use ribbons to move through the psalms and propers.

I will start out reciting the offices, because I don't have time to learn the chant notation right now. That will likely be one of my Christmas vacation projects. At first glance, some of the chants seem dauntingly complex!

As for the lectionary, I'll likely stay with the Daily Office lectionary found in U.S. BCP '79. I've been using it or some variation all year. At some point, I might want to try the Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings, which are listed in the new Evangelical Lutheran Worship and the Church of Ireland's weekday lectionary, among other places.

JSB

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Lou Poulain
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quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:

As for the lectionary, I'll likely stay with the Daily Office lectionary found in U.S. BCP '79. I've been using it or some variation all year. At some point, I might want to try the Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings, which are listed in the new Evangelical Lutheran Worship and the Church of Ireland's weekday lectionary, among other places.
JSB

Congrats. on receipt of your SHB! The lectionary at the back of the book is identical to the BCP 1979. Preceding the lectionary is a chart with the 2-week psalm scheme used by the order.

Lou

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Lou Poulain:
Congrats. on receipt of your SHB! The lectionary at the back of the book is identical to the BCP 1979. Preceding the lectionary is a chart with the 2-week psalm scheme used by the order.

Lou

Unfortunately the Monastic Edition (with music) does not include the lectionary.

Congrats from me as well, JS Bach. It takes me six markers to deftly maneuver through the sisters' humble office, not to mention Lesser Feasts and Fasts (for the biographies), a lectionary, and a Bible.

You'll enjoy it!

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J.S. Bach
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Martin beat me to the post about the lectionary. I have a small '79 BCP that I bought about 10 years ago when I decided I needed a lectionary to guide my Bible reading. Of course, I won't be able to take all these books with me on plane trips. I might buy the SHB, Personal Edition once they fix the errors and omissions.

JSB

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Of course, I won't be able to take all these books with me on plane trips.
JSB

Here's what you need for plane trips.
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Spiffy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Of course, I won't be able to take all these books with me on plane trips.
JSB

Here's what you need for plane trips.
I should have said something about mine since I've had it for over a month now! Love love LOVE it, LOVE having everything right there, toted it all over DC and Oregon(silly picture).

A few things I've found wrong with it:

1) Gilt edges get banged up v. easily. If it's going to be thrown willy-nilly into a satchel, invest in the zipper close version.

2) The BCP is in 12pt, the Bible is in 9pt. 9pt is very, very small. I've resorted to sticking one of those plastic business-card magnifiers in as a functional bookmark.


Regarding marking the SHB, Post-It notes are your friend. It feels much like marking my hymnal before service when I'm singing in the choir (same number of post-its?) and I've found it quite distracting for regular use. Seems to be my weekend office book, for leisurly Saturday mornings.

[ 01. December 2006, 22:29: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]

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Lou Poulain
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:

Regarding marking the SHB, Post-It notes are your friend. It feels much like marking my hymnal before service when I'm singing in the choir (same number of post-its?) and I've found it quite distracting for regular use. Seems to be my weekend office book, for leisurly Saturday mornings.

Yup. Four ribbons is not enough. In addition I have two Amazon bookmarks and a dental appt reminder card. Yesterday was St. Andrews so there was a marker for the beginning of Matins, a bookmark for the Common of Saints 1, my dental card for the collect for St. A.,a ribbon for the Benedictus, a ribbon for the psalms, plus one ribbon and two scraps of paper in the bible and a ribbon in the LFF. Three weeks in, and I am getting past the angst of flipping for the right page, etc. That said, I am not using the antiphons for the psalms, as that's another "flip" thru the book to distract me.

Lou

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Ricardus Sacerdos
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Here's what you need for plane trips.

Ewww! Disgusting! No thanks, I'd rather use a Bible than a politically motivated paraphrase.
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Oblatus
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In my St Helena Breviary, Monastic Edition, I'm getting along with five ribbons, but it's a stretch sometimes. Here's how I use them:

Gold: marks the place in the ordinary of the office I'm currently praying or will pray next. This one moves a lot and is needed to get back to the gospel canticle and concluding prayers as well as to mark the psalms for the next office once I'm done.

White: marks the festive psalms for 1st-class feasts.

Red: marks the place in the liturgical year in the Ordinary of the Season.

Green: marks the Common - either the one I'm using today or the one to be used next.

Black: marks the Proper of Saints (currently Dec. 1 - Nicholas Ferrar) and is where I look first so I can find out whether a Common is being used and if so, which one

I could put the white ribbon to a better use, and I need something to permanently mark the Benedictus and the Magnificat. I could paste copies of them inside the covers, but I'd still have to flip back to the same spots for the concluding prayers. I find I'm often flipping to the psalm-tone tables in back as well, to see what the formulae are for following the pointing in each tone.

What a fun, holy game this can be. [Yipee]

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Olaf
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That's much like what I do, except replace the word 'ribbon' with 'index cards.' My sixth marker holds the place for Benedictus or Magnificat, and instead of marking the 1st Class Psalms I mark the page for the previous Sunday's collect. Just call me old-fashioned, I guess.

I have yet to find a decent ribbon holder that won't fall out of my SHB.

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DitzySpike
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Here's what you need for plane trips.

Ewww! Disgusting! No thanks, I'd rather use a Bible than a politically motivated paraphrase.
hmmm. All texts and translations are political. Show me one that is not [Smile]
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Knopwood
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The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.
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Oblatus
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Back on topic, I happened across Cynthia Bourgeault's new book, Chanting the Psalms, at Borders yesterday. Bought it, of course. And the more I read it, the more I think, "If I wrote a book, this is the one I'd write." She's beaten me to it. Comes with a CD of examples of various ways of chanting the psalms, including some from upcoming office books. She cites the St Helena Breviary among others.

Lots of good bits about the Daily Office, too, and the whole spirituality of the Office, contemplative prayer, and contemplative use of the psalter.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Lots of good bits about the Daily Office, too, and the whole spirituality of the Office, contemplative prayer, and contemplative use of the psalter.

[Confused] And you got this at Borders?
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Lots of good bits about the Daily Office, too, and the whole spirituality of the Office, contemplative prayer, and contemplative use of the psalter.

[Confused] And you got this at Borders?
Yep, State & Randolph. I was surprised, too.
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Ricardus Sacerdos
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quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.

The Roman Catholic Church does not permit use of the [u]N[/u]RSV at Mass.
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mousethief

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Nor in the OCA.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.

The Roman Catholic Church does not permit use of the [u]N[/u]RSV at Mass.
The NRSV is permitted in RC churches in Canada. My Episcopal parish here in Chicago has a set of the Canadian RC NRSV daily Mass lectionary for use when our daily-Mass readings match theirs (almost always) and the celebrant or acolyte needs a large-print text to read from.
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Hilda of Whitby
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I got my St. Helena's Breviary today!! It is the personal edition--I am not as dedicated as some of you who have the monastic edition and actually chant the Psalms.

Even though it is more complicated than what I had been using (the ECUSA 2 vol. daily office book), I decided to take the plunge because of the high regard in which the SHB is held by people here. I'm really glad I got it, because the writing is just beautiful. I am gunshy of clunky translations, but this one is terrific.
Even though I will have to flip around, and use a separate book for the Biblical readings (my daily office book!!), it is quite do-able.

Thanks very much to all of you!

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Olaf
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Hilda, the sisters completely changed my outlook on gender-neutral language. Give it time, the book is complicated, but it's worth it!
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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.

The Roman Catholic Church does not permit use of the [u]N[/u]RSV at Mass.
In every English speaking country except the US it's the standard translation for use at Mass, isn't it? It's also not in the least a paraphrase, some people criticize it for being too literal (eg. it doesn't try to capture different writers' styles, or tranlate an idiom with an idiom...).

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
In every English speaking country except the US it's the standard translation for use at Mass, isn't it? It's also not in the least a paraphrase, some people criticize it for being too literal (eg. it doesn't try to capture different writers' styles, or tranlate an idiom with an idiom...).

Here's a recent list. It's probably off by a little, but I think it's for the most part accurate.

The Vatican's tolerance for the NRSV seems to be growing. I wouldn't be surprised if US Catholics see it used some day.

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DitzySpike
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quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:

Even though it is more complicated than what I had been using (the ECUSA 2 vol. daily office book), I decided to take the plunge because of the high regard in which the SHB is held by people here. I'm really glad I got it, because the writing is just beautiful. I am gunshy of clunky translations, but this one is terrific.
Even though I will have to flip around, and use a separate book for the Biblical readings (my daily office book!!), it is quite do-able.

Thanks very much to all of you!

Keep the 2 volume office book - they are adorable. They complement SHB too: saves you trouble flipping through a Bible for your lection.

A non-related issue - Cyprian Consiglio is doing to concert tonight here. I'm happy. [Yipee]

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DitzySpike
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The Byzantine Catholic Office Book is up on ebay. The horologion, octoechos, triodion and menanion in one volume. (I wonder how they pack those books into one piece.)
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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.

The Roman Catholic Church does not permit use of the [u]N[/u]RSV at Mass.
The NRSV is permitted in RC churches in Canada.
Yes, sorry, that would be the important caveat: I AM Canadian [Big Grin] .

Mind you, I have contemplated using a paraphrase at {{brings it back to thread}} the Daily Office, viz. The Message. However, our Church School director (who would be my spiritual director if she were so licensed-we call what we do "I Can't Believe It's Not Spiritual Direction") would lose her rag. She calls it "The Massage" because it's "massaged the divinity of Christ right out of the Bible".

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Ricardus Sacerdos
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quote:
Here's a recent list. It's probably off by a little, but I think it's for the most part accurate.

The Vatican's tolerance for the NRSV seems to be growing. I wouldn't be surprised if US Catholics see it used some day.

As that list shows, the NRSV is not permitted in any English speaking nation. It is listed by the USCCB as "under consideration" by the Vatican, but the Vatican is steadfastly not approving it because it doesn't meet the standards, having gone too far in the so-called inclusive language fad. The standard edition in the US is the NAB, and elsewhere is the JB.

The politically motivated changes in the NRSV are the reason it is a paraphrase rather than a translation or a version.

Oh, and the RSV-CE is approved for the Anglican Use.

Y'all may be using it in Canada, but it isn't permitted. Of course, the church once known for tight discipline now is nearly lawless, so you may see unapproved lectionaries in use. I know of RC pastors who routinely edit both lectionary and Mass texts to make them PC, and they do it without punishment, or indeed, without any fear of it. Sic transit gloria ecclesiam.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
Y'all may be using it in Canada, but it isn't permitted.

The Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, which has approved it, may be surprised by that statement.
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Ricardus Sacerdos
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LitQ, I certainly wouldn't want to quibble with your obviously superior on the spot knowledge. However, and it's a big however, the CCCB may approve anything they like, after all, the USCCB approved the version too--but the Vatican isn't having any. Not yet, at least, and God willing, not ever.
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Ecce Quam Bonum
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Back on topic, I happened across Cynthia Bourgeault's new book, Chanting the Psalms, at Borders yesterday. Bought it, of course. And the more I read it, the more I think, "If I wrote a book, this is the one I'd write." She's beaten me to it. Comes with a CD of examples of various ways of chanting the psalms, including some from upcoming office books. She cites the St Helena Breviary among others.

Lots of good bits about the Daily Office, too, and the whole spirituality of the Office, contemplative prayer, and contemplative use of the psalter.

I purchased this book last week at the campus bookstore (a Barnes and Noble), and have absolutely fallen in love with it. As someone who has desired to begin chanting the psalms during his recitation of the office for the past few months, it is certainly a godsend. And as someone who suffers from a severe dearth of both musical ability and training, the instructional CD makes it all the better. I would highly recommend buying this one if you're at all interested in expanding your engagement with the offices.

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"And it is folly—it is madness—to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."--+Frank Weston, "Our Present Duty"

Posts: 168 | From: Sewanee, TN | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
John H
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# 9599

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Wikipedia has a great little article on Anglican chant, which includes colour-coded notation to help learn how to match the chant with the pointing in the text.

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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."

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IngoB

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# 8700

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Ricardus Sacerdos and Liturgy Queen, you are both right. The Holy See has forbidden the use of the NRSV in the liturgy. But due to special circumstances, the Canadians have basically an indult to use old liturgical texts based on the NRSV. See here.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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malik3000
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# 11437

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2 things (the 2nd of which is really off-topic but the issue came up on this thread; forgive me if i've erred commenting on it ere):

1. Re psalm schemas, i have heard no one mention the daily schema found in (if i am not mistaken) the service book/hymnal of the US ELC church (a copy of which i used to have but lost.) It is also in the US Presbyterians' Book of Common Worship in their daily lectionary (other than the psalms the daily lectionary is basically the same as the '79 BCP) The cycle of a 4-week one in ordinary time and a one-week cycle for each of the major seasons. I haven't found it online yet. Any shippies have opinions about this schema?

2. As has been noted above the "Holy See" is moving away from, not further to, greater acceptance of the NRSV because (how can i say this non-hellishly?) they are moving away from an attitude of greater inclusivity in general. Those guys have made it abundantly clear that they are absolutely averse to anything that would imply that power should be equally shared with those not of their gender. I say this from my heart with great sadness because it is this (un-Christ-like in my opinion) intransigency that has pushed me out.

[ 04. December 2006, 12:12: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
2. As has been noted above the "Holy See" is moving away from, not further to, greater acceptance of the NRSV because (how can i say this non-hellishly?) they are moving away from an attitude of greater inclusivity in general. Those guys have made it abundantly clear that they are absolutely averse to anything that would imply that power should be equally shared with those not of their gender. I say this from my heart with great sadness because it is this (un-Christ-like in my opinion) intransigency that has pushed me out.

Or maybe they are just moving away from confusing translation with catechesis. I suggest Kerygmania, Purgatory, or Hell for further discussion of this, if you feel the need.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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malik3000
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# 11437

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I found a digital copy of the psalm schema to which i referred above, and will post it later for y'all's consideration. I have been praying the office as in the 1979 BCP except for using the aforementioned psalm schema. One thing i like about it is that it brings back the tradition at lauds of concluding the morning psalmody with a laudate (halleluyah) psalm (146-150), bringing the "lauds" back to morning prayer as it were.

And IngoB, with all due respect, no, I really dont want to start a whole new thread to reply to previously started non-topical asides on this thread that call out for at least a reply; however if someone wants to start such a thread i will further comment if it is desired. I did not start the non-topical detour; the detour started with the above sniping at the NSRV for being "politically correct" or a "paraphrase". Also, catachesis means teaching. If the translation gives a wrong impression, to just continue with it is not helping catachesis, it's just continuing to propogate misinformation. But, as noted above, I'll say no more on this subject in this thread.

corrected for spelling

[ 04. December 2006, 13:16: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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malik3000
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Corrected for spelling -- but obviously not enough [Frown] [Razz] [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Knopwood
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# 11596

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
LitQ, I certainly wouldn't want to quibble with your obviously superior on the spot knowledge.

[Waterworks] That's not what I meant to imply!
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Spiffy
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LQ, considering you're actually in Canada and Ric is not, I'd say your knowledge is a bit more up to date than his.

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Olaf
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# 11804

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malik3000, I've used a Psalm scheme similar to the Lutheran one you mentioned. I used it in Pfatteicher's work Daily Prayer of the Church, which contains the offices from LBW in an amplified format. I like it, because frankly those Benedictine and offshoot breviaries drown me with Psalms.

At least I know that by consistenly using DP of the C all Psalms will be covered every year. That being said, I don't consistenly use it!

[ 04. December 2006, 17:22: Message edited by: Martin L ]

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
malik3000, I've used a Psalm scheme similar to the Lutheran one you mentioned. I used it in Pfatteicher's work Daily Prayer of the Church, which contains the offices from LBW in an amplified format. I like it, because frankly those Benedictine and offshoot breviaries drown me with Psalms.

What a way to drown, though! [Angel]

Looks to me as though ELCA Lutherans who have a personal daily-office discipline will have to turn to Pfatteicher's excellent book or the four-volume For All the Saints series, as the new ELW aims its office materials at congregational services. Am I right? NTTAWWT, but I think LBW had provisions for individual use of the offices.

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Olaf
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# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Looks to me as though ELCA Lutherans who have a personal daily-office discipline will have to turn to Pfatteicher's excellent book or the four-volume For All the Saints series, as the new ELW aims its office materials at congregational services. Am I right? NTTAWWT, but I think LBW had provisions for individual use of the offices.

Once again, we are left high and dry. LBW did offer provision for individual offices, but I didn't use them because they simultaneously omitted and kept things that they shouldn't. It's plainly apparent to me that the ELW (and LBW) offices were written for corporate use.

BTW, someone seems to have misplaced the Great Litany and the Table of Psalms for Daily Prayer. I cannot be expected to subsist on only two additional Psalms a week! An individual volume needs to be composed, and quickly. Since DPotC seems to be Mr. Pfatteicher's Opus, it is now in the hands of the ELCA Worship Dept. and the good folks at Augsburg Fortress. (Deus in adjutorium meum intende, Domine ad adjuvandum me festina)

Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged



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