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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
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kenosis
Shipmate
# 10433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
I found a digital copy of the psalm schema to which i referred above, and will post it later for y'all's consideration.
Please do - this sounds like just the thing I was looking for.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
*Bump* Shame on us for letting this worthy thread drop to the bottom of page 1.
I am seriously enjoying the new Psalter for ELW. Any other reactions?
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
Question: How feasible would it be for a layperson or parish cleric to use the Anglican Breviary in its entirety on a daily basis? (I know Muslims pray five times a day).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
Question: How feasible would it be for a layperson or parish cleric to use the Anglican Breviary in its entirety on a daily basis? (I know Muslims pray five times a day).
I'm no expert in this, but IIRC the five times daily prayer is the same thing each time, and it is rather brief.
If anybody here has tried what you suggest, it would be Scott Knitter.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
If anybody here has tried what you suggest, it would be Scott Knitter.
It would take a serious time commitment, both to learn how to pray the various offices and then to pray them. If one can do it, I think the rewards would be great. I've sometimes tried to do it, on a Saturday, for instance, and have gotten through Matins and Lauds and couldn't go any further. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I think I've done a whole day's offices once.
This site helps a lot.
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ConsAnglican
Apprentice
# 12136
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Posted
I was wondering if someone in this thread could kindly tell me more about Daily Prayer of the Church by Pfatteicher, and particularly how it compares to Benedictine Daily Prayer, which I'm currently using as my breviary. I really like BDP -- especially the prayers of intercession, which are very well done in terms of focusing one's prayers towards the needs of the Church and the world. However, I miss collects, which are a staple of Anglican prayer. The leaflet for DPotC looks great, but I'm worried that the basic form of the services or the intercessory prayers might leave something to be desired as compared to BDP.
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J.S. Bach
Shipmate
# 9633
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Posted
Welcome to the Ship, ConsAnglican! I own both Daily Prayer of the Church and Benedictine Daily Prayer. DPotC has litanies set to music in the Evening Prayer forms, one for each season of the church year. However, there are no daily variations in these litanies, as in BDP. By contrast, DPofC makes extensive use of collects, including a four-week daily cycle of intercessions in the back of the book. For intercessory prayer, I prefer BDP, especially when I've prayed the offices with others; the responses let everyone join in the prayers even if they don't have the book. I hope this information helps.
J.S. Bach
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I was wondering if someone in this thread could kindly tell me more about Daily Prayer of the Church by Pfatteicher, and particularly how it compares to Benedictine Daily Prayer, which I'm currently using as my breviary.
Welcome to Daily Offices and to the Ship in general, ConsAnglican!
Daily Prayer of the Church (DPOTC from here) contains augmented forms of the offices contained in Lutheran Book of Worship, including the music. It basically makes it easier to do the offices without the constant flipping to the Propers for Daily Prayer in LBW or to the Psalms.
It is organized in a similar manner to BDP. Although DPOTC provides spartan offices for Terce and Sext/None (much the same), it does not expect these will be used frequently. The principal offices are those in LBW--Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Prayer at the Close of the Day. Pfatteicher takes the suggestions given in the rubrics of LBW and in his own work Manual on the Liturgy and employs them to create offices appropriate for the seasons, drawing upon a much greater collection of collects and canticles than LBW provides.
There is so much more I could say, but I'll limit the rest to the intercessions and collects since you specifically mentioned those.
First, the offices do not place a great emphasis on intercessions. Morning prayer assumes you will move straight from Benedictus to the Collect of the Day, to the Collect for Grace, and to the Lord's Prayer. Evening Prayer employs the usual LBW little litany after the Magnificat, substituting the Great Litany in certain seasons. Then the liturgy continues with the Collect for Peace. Compline obviously contains only the usual collects.
Second, the collect collection is quite ample. It is basically LBW augmented with materials from many other resources, in particular the ancient sacramentaries and the Book of Common Prayer. The church year calendar is a hybrid of LBW and that contained in Lesser Feasts and Fasts. Not all LFF collects are included. Some are and some aren't. There is, however, a substantial number of collects provided in a general section at the back of the book.
I've gone long enough, but will happily take more questions.
Martin
[cross-posted with JS Bach]
[ 07. December 2006, 02:25: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I was wondering if someone in this thread could kindly tell me more about Daily Prayer of the Church by Pfatteicher, and particularly how it compares to Benedictine Daily Prayer, which I'm currently using as my breviary. I really like BDP -- especially the prayers of intercession, which are very well done in terms of focusing one's prayers towards the needs of the Church and the world. However, I miss collects, which are a staple of Anglican prayer. The leaflet for DPotC looks great, but I'm worried that the basic form of the services or the intercessory prayers might leave something to be desired as compared to BDP.
The Daily Prayer of the Church expands on the Lutheran Book of Worship daily office much as Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office expands on the BCP 1979 one. (Whew...enough with the italics already.)
You'll find lots of good intercessory material and collects in Pfatteicher's DPC. The organization takes a bit of study: the Evening Prayer material comes before the Morning Prayer material. Each of these offices has a big two-part section: the order for the office followed by the psalms and other propers for MP of the season or of the week in ordinary time. Flipping is fairly minimal; you start with the main MP or EP section and then there's a flip to the stuff for the day and then back for the conclusion. You'll need a marker for the psalm-tone table in back as well, if you sing the psalms. Everything is set out for singing, with psalms and canticles pointed, and throughcomposed canticles fully noted. I like that there's a substantial hymn for each MP and EP (chiefly metrical, but some chanted office hymns). Intercessory material is in a section toward the back, and there's a lot to choose from. What's not there is much sanctoral material, which doesn't bother me much because I'd rather just make variations for the seasons and not do too much for saints' days.
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ConsAnglican
Apprentice
# 12136
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Posted
quote:
There is so much more I could say
Do say! Do say!
Thanks to everyone for their comments. As I usually pray the office alone, I think I'd prefer intercessory collects, as in DPotC, to litanies. I'm just really impressed with the litanies in BDP. Common Worship: Daily Prayer, by contrast, has only a few litanies, and they are all much to "new age-speak" for me. I suppose I ought to divulge my preferences in a breviary, which are:
1. Modern language, as Jacobean English was the English at the time the BCP was composed, and was not meant to be special language for praying to God.
2. Non-inclusivized language, as I think many psalms lose their double meaning of referring to both us and Jesus (e.g., a suffering man versus suffering people) when pluralized or put in the second person, and I don't think other means of expressing the Trinity capture the range of meanings in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. An office that can easily be said alone, rather than one obviously designed only for corporate worship.
4. Sufficient variety, so things don't get boring and repetitive.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I suppose I ought to divulge my preferences in a breviary, which are:
1. Modern language, as Jacobean English was the English at the time the BCP was composed, and was not meant to be special language for praying to God.
DPOTC obviously uses modern language. Pfatteicher tends to favor BCP79-style language using lots of subordinate clauses, not the direct language found in the current English language Roman Missal. I believe the canticles that are not part of the LBW resources come from the NRSV. The antiphons and responsories are pulled from anywhere and everywhere, but mostly LOTH.
quote:
2. Non-inclusivized language, as I think many psalms lose their double meaning...
Not a problem in DPOTC. The Psalter is BCP79-LBW.
quote:
3. An office that can easily be said alone, rather than one obviously designed only for corporate worship.
The Lutheran offices were written primarily for corporate use, but it was intended that they be easily adaptable by individuals. They are.
quote:
4. Sufficient variety, so things don't get boring and repetitive.
Ample variety is provided! The four week cycle of supplemental collects mentioned by J.S. Bach helps, as do the invitatory antiphons, the Psalm antiphons, the hymns, the supplemental canticles on Saturday/Sunday, and the responsories. There is also a brief but impressive treasury of notable prayers at the back, such as Anima Christi, and St. Ignatius Loyola's 'Teach us..,' and the Prayer of St. Francis. Great stuff to commit to memory!
One caveat--there are some typos, but nothing that would keep me from buying the book again.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
One caveat--there are some typos, but nothing that would keep me from buying the book again.
I'm encountering several of them in the Advent section.
"would save us from our enemes"
The antiphon on Venite is written in stemless notation except for one eighth-note waving its flag forlornly.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who sin against us" (Ah, the perils of copy-paste-revise!)
But I, too, wouldn't ignore this book on account of typos. There aren't too many, and it's such a fine resource.
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ConsAnglican
Apprentice
# 12136
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Posted
Thanks again. Typos seem to bedevil (if that's the right (rite?) word) breviaries. I've found two so far in BDP, although I don't have them handy for reference.
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RCD
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# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
Question: How feasible would it be for a layperson or parish cleric to use the Anglican Breviary in its entirety on a daily basis? (I know Muslims pray five times a day).
I did do that for one week with the old Roman breviary but eventually moved back to the modern LOTH. I still do it on holy days for devotional reasons, and read Matins so I get a chunk of psalms and a few lessons.
What I really wanted to try out was the old Roman breviary (pre-1913) with the 18 psalms on Sunday, and also with the looong ferial Lauds and Vespers. Alas, some of the online versions are a headache to read and/or navigate.
(P.S. it is common among the Shia to combine their prayers so they pray actually 3 times a day [fajr, zuhr+aasr, maghrib+isha)
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
Thanks again. Typos seem to bedevil (if that's the right (rite?) word) breviaries. I've found two so far in BDP, although I don't have them handy for reference.
Breviaries do seem to have more typos than usual, but I actually caught on in ELW: Leader's Edition today. The "Psalm" appointed for either today or tomorrow in the Daily Lectionary is the Benedictus. For two days, it is cited properly as Luke 1, but on the other day it is cited as Luke 11. Of course, this leaves people with saying the Benedictus twice at Morning Prayer or choosing an alternative (good luck with that, there's not much from which to choose!)
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J.S. Bach
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# 9633
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Posted
I've been enjoying praying matins and vespers from The Saint Helena Breviary: Monastic Edition over the last week. The Advent antiphons and canticles are wonderful. Since I'll be on business travel this week, I've downloaded morning and evening prayer services from the Mission of St. Clare website onto my laptop. The downloads are HTML files with the full services for each day, so convenient when there is limited time!
Blessings,
JSB
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I've been enjoying praying matins and vespers from The Saint Helena Breviary: Monastic Edition over the last week. The Advent antiphons and canticles are wonderful.
I love the SHB:ME as well. I do get concerned that the binding might not last long: it's such a heavy book, and I think the brown paper that is supposed to be attached to something (inside of the spine? inside edges of the signatures of pages?) has never really been completely attached. Perhaps a local bookbinder can reinforce it for long wear.
My copy makes a loud cracking noise when opened; wonder whether there's a group cracking of books at the start of the sisters' offices. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
My copy makes a loud cracking noise when opened; wonder whether there's a group cracking of books at the start of the sisters' offices.
Mine has questionable binding as well. The worst thing about it is that I have yet to find a decent ribbon marker that will remain in place. The binding is just too loose to hold one in.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
My copy makes a loud cracking noise when opened; wonder whether there's a group cracking of books at the start of the sisters' offices.
Mine has questionable binding as well. The worst thing about it is that I have yet to find a decent ribbon marker that will remain in place. The binding is just too loose to hold one in.
I'm using the one designed for the Lutheran Book of Worship and sold by Augsburg Fortress; its spine tab stays in just fine for me once the ribbons are all marking pages in the book. Pretty loose until then.
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Is the problem with your ribbons perhaps that they are attached to one of those stubby little commercial things? If so, try glueing a longer piece of cardboard to the tab that goes down the spine. I have a homemade (by someone else) ribbon set-up for my choir hymnal. To the naked eye it looks pretty flimsy and not very pretty, but it works just fine and has survived years of use. It's nothing more than five bits of ribbon hot-glued (I assume) between two very light-weight pieces of cardboard/heavy stock/oaktag. The key to success is that the pieces of cardboard are long enough that they go at least halfway down the spine of the book and are roughly 90% of the width of the spine.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
Yep, that's the problem. Those short stubs fall out too easily. I like to release my ribbons as I use them and then replace them for the next office or Psalms when I'm finished. When I release them, the stub falls out. A longer stub is needed, and your cardboard idea should do the trick. There's an unusually large space between the cover and the binding in my SHB.
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
I make similar markers, sandwiching the ribbons between two layers of iron-on patch material. Then sew over them for good measure. Cardboard would be fatter though, if you need to take up an extremely roomy spine space.
As an alternative, if it needs extra holding power to stay in the spine, I'm envisioning ironing/gluing extra, extra-long, ribbons into it and then tying those around the covers next to the spine.
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Truth
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
Thanks, AR. Sewing is not my forté, but I think I can improvise based on your ideas and jlg's!
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
One question. Suppose if you have access to an Office Book with a decent provision for the hours. You wake up at 11.30 am.
Will you say
a) morning prayers, on its own
b) mid-day prayers with the psalms for morning prayer
c) mid-day prayers and using the forms for intercession and perhaps collect from morning prayers
What informs your decision? Are there any factors that should make one choose otherwise?
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
One question. Suppose if you have access to an Office Book with a decent provision for the hours. You wake up at 11.30 am.
Will you say
a) morning prayers, on its own
b) mid-day prayers with the psalms for morning prayer
c) mid-day prayers and using the forms for intercession and perhaps collect from morning prayers
What informs your decision? Are there any factors that should make one choose otherwise?
I think what would inform my decision is my awareness of what I am doing: am I fulfilling a personal commitment to pray the whole Office (in which case I think I'd start with the first office of the day and catch up to midday), or am I rejoining a universal cycle of prayer that has been carried on without me while I slept (in which case I'd jump on the carousel at Sext or midday prayer and move on from there)? I think either is a legitimate approach, although too much amalgamation to catch up is not ideal, IMO. Better to anticipate a bit than run a lot of offices together.
On the whole, I'd rather pray offices as given than mix and match this office with another office's psalms, etc.
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
2. Non-inclusivized language, as I think many psalms lose their double meaning of referring to both us and Jesus (e.g., a suffering man versus suffering people) when pluralized or put in the second person, and I don't think other means of expressing the Trinity capture the range of meanings in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I don't have a problem with rendering Psalm 1 as "Happy are they" rather than "Happy is the man". I think there is still plenty of room for exposition to identify Our Lord as the formost one who has "not walked in the counsel of the wicked."
One alternative Trinitarian formula that is capable of being technically correct is "God Unbegotten, God Begotten, and God Proceeding."
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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
As I have never met a breviary I didn't feel the need to own a copy of, I thought I'd pass along news of three upcoming breviaries of which I'm aware. These will vary in availability to the general public.
The first will be very available, as it is due to be published by Liturgical Press: Lauds and Vespers [not sure that will be the final title] of New Camaldoli in California. This will be valuable for the chant antiphons and tones that demonstrate one very natural way to chant psalms in English. Cynthia Bourgeault, an oblate of New Camaldoli, gives many examples of this in her compelling book, Chanting the Psalms.
A new four-week office book is going to be published for the oblates of Saint Meinrad Archabbey (of which I am one). Not sure of the timing of this or where it is in its process, or its availability to others. Our current Benedictine Oblate Companion contains a one-week "starter office" that's valuable for some of the antiphons and hymns the monks use. The four-week book will replace this and be separate from the oblate manual. I applaud this, as it seems too many publishers of oblate guides feel the need to bulk them up with a trimmed-down office that provides even less material than the simplified LOTH versions out there.
The Companions of St Luke - Benedictine, based in Donnelson, Iowa, are developing their own office book to replace their use of A Monastic Breviary (OHC). I think the abbot is doing this on his own, largely. He has written that he considers the OHC book more Franciscan than Benedictine. Not sure what makes a book Franciscan, but there you are.
Anyone know of any others? I also recently purchased the new CSF Office Book from the Community of St Francis in San Francisco. It's a very durably bound book based on the 1979 BCP office with influence (and materials) from Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office and from Celebrating Common Prayer (or, more specifically, Daily Office SSF). My copy has a very strong glue or ink smell to which I'm allergic, though. Very odd. It's "new book smell" gone wild. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
I also recently purchased the new CSF Office Book from the Community of St Francis in San Francisco. It's a very durably bound book based on the 1979 BCP office with influence (and materials) from Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office and from Celebrating Common Prayer (or, more specifically, Daily Office SSF).
Scott, can you link us to ordering info on this one? I used an older edition of the CSF office when I went on retreat at the SSF friary on Mt. Sinai, Long Island. It was great. I imagine the new one will be equally good.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
quote:
I also recently purchased the new CSF Office Book from the Community of St Francis in San Francisco. It's a very durably bound book based on the 1979 BCP office with influence (and materials) from Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office and from Celebrating Common Prayer (or, more specifically, Daily Office SSF).
Scott, can you link us to ordering info on this one? I used an older edition of the CSF office when I went on retreat at the SSF friary on Mt. Sinai, Long Island. It was great. I imagine the new one will be equally good.
I would contact them by e-mail using the address given here.
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ConsAnglican
Apprentice
# 12136
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Posted
quote:
I don't have a problem with rendering Psalm 1 as "Happy are they" rather than "Happy is the man". I think there is still plenty of room for exposition to identify Our Lord as the formost one who has "not walked in the counsel of the wicked."
One alternative Trinitarian formula that is capable of being technically correct is "God Unbegotten, God Begotten, and God Proceeding."
Re Psalm 1, there is room for the exposition you suggest in pluralized form, and my preference for non-inclusive language is not a strong one. What English needs, obviously, is a third person singular gender-neutral pronoun with appropriate possessives. The French on works in English as the pronoun "one", but our possessives almost always indicate physical gender, whereas the French possessive's indicate grammatical gender. I suppose I am a traditionalist in the sense that I was raised to understand that the male singular was the proper form of the generic (the formative experience being my eighth grade (female) English teacher giving me a bad mark for a sentence that read something like "One must put one's clothes in the washing machine.")
I disagree with the proposed Trinitarian formula, for two reasons. First, linguistically, "In the Name of God Unbegotten, God Begotten, and God Proceeding" is inelegant. That's not my key complaint (as the claim made is for accuracy, not elegance). But I think that the "begotten" formula, or the overused "Creater, Redeemer, Sustainer" each convey only one aspect of a multifaceted relationship among the Godhead, whereas "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" can impart a multitude of complex meanings based on our understanding from personal experience of the inherent complexity of familial relationships.
[ 14. December 2006, 20:17: Message edited by: ConsAnglican ]
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The first will be very available, as it is due to be published by Liturgical Press: Lauds and Vespers [not sure that will be the final title] of New Camaldoli in California. This will be valuable for the chant antiphons and tones that demonstrate one very natural way to chant psalms in English. Cynthia Bourgeault, an oblate of New Camaldoli, gives many examples of this in her compelling book, Chanting the Psalms.
Thanks. I'm glad the Camadolese are publishing their office book. I thought smuggled copies were my only hope. Their psalm tones are among the most successfully written for the strophe form.
I'm hoping that they include their office of Vigils in the book but it seems unlikely from their oblate news.
Any other teasers for the Meinrad office?
It is quite interesting that the Monastic houses are now sharing their liturgical texts. BDP/ St John's Abbey did a good job by testing the grounds since their unfortunate problems with their 1975 shorter LOH.
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I disagree with the proposed Trinitarian formula, for two reasons. First, linguistically, "In the Name of God Unbegotten, God Begotten, and God Proceeding" is inelegant. That's not my key complaint (as the claim made is for accuracy, not elegance). But I think that the "begotten" formula, or the overused "Creater, Redeemer, Sustainer" each convey only one aspect of a multifaceted relationship among the Godhead, whereas "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" can impart a multitude of complex meanings based on our understanding from personal experience of the inherent complexity of familial relationships.
I think "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer" can carry as rich a multitude of complex meanings based on our understanding/ myths/ beliefs about life and the cosmos.
On the other hand, the signs 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' can be empty if the meaning makers - the readers - do not actively engage with the words.
We should fuss less about the words themselves, but rather reflect, preach, nourish the meanings that the Christian communities layer on the words. God-willing, the tradition that the words evoke still has the power to inspire.
I like the ways in which the Camadolese congregation translate the doxologies in more fluid forms and always emphasizing the movements among the persons of the Trinity:
quote:
The Magnificat Doxology -
Give glory to God the Father:
he has fulfilled his promise in Mary;
she gave birth to Christ our Saviour
by the power of the holy Spirit.
Mockingbird's suggestion is brilliant in that it captures the essense of this movement within the Trinity (actually in a way clearer than Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Any other teasers for the Meinrad office?
It's been mentioned in the summaries of the last two Oblate Council meetings:
quote:
Four new publications are coming up: a brochure on becoming an oblate [I've received that already--SK], a Liturgy of the Hours book, a ritual and customary prayer book, and printing of the second edition of the Benedictine Oblate Companion.
Another summary says the Liturgy of the Hours book will contain a four-week office and that the ritual and customary prayer book will be called Oblate Customary and Rituals.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
It is quite interesting that the Monastic houses are now sharing their liturgical texts. BDP/ St John's Abbey did a good job by testing the grounds since their unfortunate problems with their 1975 shorter LOH.
One thing I'm missing about Benedictine Daily Prayer is the idea that it's a version of the St. John's Abbey monks' office. It seems very different indeed, to me. How specifically does it resemble the SJA office (the office of the seven blue binders)?
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DitzySpike
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Only in the sense it stands in continuity with SJA's published Short Breviaries and the sources it draws from SJB's Book of Prayers (mentioned in the introduction). I've not seen the Office texts currently used by SJA.
Looks like the Meinrad book will give a fuller form than Sutera's Work of God but not as full as BDP.
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Oblatus
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Looks like the Meinrad book will give a fuller form than Sutera's Work of God but not as full as BDP.
Hard to say. The monks' office follows a four-week psalter distribution. Would be nice if the oblates could have the same office, perhaps minus the thousands of responsories (but they're the work of the wonderful Fr Columba Kelly OSB, so I'd miss them). I believe the monks' choir books are changed seasonally. They have a choir book with all the chanty bits, a separate Grail psalter pointed as needed, and the psalm tones. Nice tabbed comb-bound choir books; guests get to use a copy when praying with the monks.
I'm thinking it will be the monks' office with simplifications.
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DitzySpike
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by DitzySpike:
[qb] One question. Suppose if you have access to an Office Book with a decent provision for the hours. You wake up at 11.30 am.
Will you say
a) morning prayers, on its own
b) mid-day prayers with the psalms for morning prayer
c) mid-day prayers and using the forms for intercession and perhaps collect from morning prayers
I think what would inform my decision is my awareness of what I am doing: am I fulfilling a personal commitment to pray the whole Office (in which case I think I'd start with the first office of the day and catch up to midday), or am I rejoining a universal cycle of prayer that has been carried on without me while I slept (in which case I'd jump on the carousel at Sext or midday prayer and move on from there)? I think either is a legitimate approach, although too much amalgamation to catch up is not ideal, IMO. Better to anticipate a bit than run a lot of offices together.
Jumping on the carousel of prayer can explain Maxwell Johnson's editorial decision to include selections schema A in his psalter, rather than the entire collection of psalms.
The editors of the OHC's Monastic Breviary raised an interesting issue: our day is mostly defined by our work hours rather than sunrise and sunset.
Perhaps the future of the daily office will take on forms with different intention.
The monastic office will provide for the hours marked by day and night, with selected material for oblates.
The secular office giving more flexibility in marking the hours. Common Worship: Daily Prayer is quite a successful attempt in this tradition.
I think my preference lies with a form of the monastic office.
It will be good if Meinrad's choir book is available. THE reason anyone might want their office book is because of Fr Kelly's adaptation of the plainsong. Maybe I'm just projecting my desires.
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Perhaps the future of the daily office will take on forms with different intention.
Daily Prayer: A Form of Praise and Prayer for Use at Any Time of the Day is one of the more innovative and flexible office books I've seen. Bound durably like a children's story book, it's a slim volume with a structure and prayers (you need the Grail psalter along with it) for one single office per day, with provision for additional offices. It has seasonal variations but uses the secular calendar, probably for simplicity for new users (one looks up March 12 rather than Tuesday in the II Week of Lent, for instance).
Celebrating Daily Prayer is another excellent book for the busy, as it includes all that is needed in one reasonable volume and yet provides a quite substantial MP and EP daily, and Compline.
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Divine Office
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Just obtained copies of the first two volumes of the new edition of the Antiphonale Monasticum published by the Abbey of Solesmes today.
I've only looked through them briefly, but the first volume has the antiphons for the psalms and canticles of all the Sundays of the liturgical year, while the second has the weekly psalter according to Benedictine usage.
I assume that further volumes will provide for ferial days and feast days. I would also assume that a monastic community could utilise the 1934 Antiphonale for these until the new books are published.
My Latin is not very good, but after flipping through the books my impression is that the biblical readings may be taken from either the secular Liturgia Horarum or an approved lectionary. The Liber Hymnarius, which I also have, would be required for the office hymns.
The new antiphonale does not provide for Matins, nor did the 1934 edition. I wonder if a further book is planned for the office of Vigils?
Has anyone visited Solesmes and participated in the liturgy?
DIVINE OFFICE
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I assume that further volumes will provide for ferial days and feast days. I would also assume that a monastic community could utilise the 1934 Antiphonale for these until the new books are published.
I understand that the third and final volume will be the Sanctoral, joining the Temporal (Vol 1) and the Psalter (Vol 2).
A community could use Solesmes' Psalterium Monasticum for Vigils.
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Choirboy
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Plese forgive me if this is not news. While avoiding work, I just found that Nova et Vetera publishing is about to (or just has) reprinted the 1895 Liber Responsorialis. The printer's website is in German, which I cannot read, but the information is here.
At 78 Euros this strikes me as a real bargain for a book that is very difficult to find; that is, if you care about the contents rather than having an antique.
There is also, as has been previously reported here, a Nocturnale for the Roman Breviary published by Hartker.
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Posted
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Originally posted by Choirboy:
There is also, as has been previously reported here, a Nocturnale for the Roman Breviary published by Hartker.
I have a copy of this and can verify that it is an extraordinary piece of work. Simply awe-inspiring.
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This "house of prayer" dedicated to the promotion, teaching, and praying of the RC Liturgy of the Hours has sort of captured my imagination today. Knotty pine creeps me out a bit, but that's the only quibble I have with this excellent idea, a place other than a monastery, devoted to getting people together to pray the Office. Just more of a very good thing.
I think cathedrals should do this, too, but I'm a reactionary, I guess. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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This "house of prayer" dedicated to the promotion, teaching, and praying of the RC Liturgy of the Hours has sort of captured my imagination today. Knotty pine creeps me out a bit, but that's the only quibble I have with this excellent idea, a place other than a monastery, devoted to getting people together to pray the Office. Just more of a very good thing.
Check the "Today's Prayers" section for a fine substitute for the St Joseph guides to Christian Prayer and the LOTH for MP and EP.
[ 15. December 2006, 21:44: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]
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Choirboy
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I'm torn as I'd like to get both text and music for a full office - either the Roman Breviary or Benedictine Monastic Breviary. I need the office itself in English because my latin is poor. However, I don't mind if the music is set to latin as long as I have a parallel English translation (not nec. set to music) so I know what I'm chanting.
I imagine a combination of Anglican Breviary plus Nocturnale, plus an Antiphonale for the day hours of the Roman Breviary I downloaded from archive.org would be one such combination that would mostly work. [click on 'texts', search for 'antiphonale' - beware, a 55 Meg PDF file].
Conversely, I could use the LA Press books (monastic diurnal, monastic diurnal noted, the soon-to-be-published matins book, and possibly the liber responsorialis). That won't be totally complete due to parts the LR lacks. But it is pretty close!
Neither is perfect as the office and music books are from different sources, but they should be pretty darn similar.
[crossposted]
[ 15. December 2006, 21:57: Message edited by: Choirboy ]
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Choirboy
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Just more of a very good thing.
Excellent! Though I completely agree about the knotty pine.
I have the one-volume LOTH (as opposed to the 4-volume LOTH). Is that what they mean by 'Christian Prayer'? [don't recall the title on my book right now]
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Omigosh...amazing new stuff coming to my attention all day today (and a slow day at the office).
A fellow oblate on a Yahoo Group has pointed out that through the miracle of scanning, the four-volume 1908 Roman Breviary in English, by the Marquess of Bute, is online in PDF and some other formats:
Volume I
Volume II
Volume III
Volume IV
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DitzySpike
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Who has started O Sapientia and who is doing it tomorrow on the 17th?
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Who has started O Sapientia and who is doing it tomorrow on the 17th?
Today I'll start with O Wisdom, per the Saint Helena Breviary. Last O is O Virgin of Virgins, on the 23rd.
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