|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Mormon Meets Christian: The Reckoning
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
As I said, Myrrh, if you want to discuss Luther, go ahead and start a thread. I'll happily join you there. But doing it here is a) a derailment, b) a tu quoque, and c) just weird.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tumphouse:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
[qb] Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
[QUOTE][qb]The biggest problem with Mormonism's view of women is that it isn't content to see women as somehow second-class souls just on Earth; that view extends to the afterlife. I don't know of any other religion with a pretense to being Christian that does that. Do you even understand why it's so appalling a concept?
You STILL have it wrong, Ross! Women and men in mortality have different roles. Mormons routinely joke that men have the priesthood so that they will be compelled to do something; if the women had it, the men would just not amount to anything. Good men, of which the church predominates (but not to listen to your view of it), do not joke when they often claim that they "married above" themselves, i.e. they publically admit that their wives are better people than they themselves are. My own father talks like that each time I visit with him: he has nothing but praise for his wife, and says she is a far better person than he is. I know of countless examples of this, from the "general authorities" right through the entire church.
Men throughout history have made statements like this about women, Merlin, usually while depring them of autonomy, authority, rights to control their own lives, income , property, and a place in society. The Victorian term was 'The Angel in the House', who had no rights other then those her husband allowed her. So that is what Mormonism is like if you are a woman? And I find it hard to take seriously any views on women from a man who will 'slap' them even virtually
G
G
Mormon women have never been deprived of autonomy, income, property or their place in society. NEVER. Look up the history, read the diaries. The most Mormon women have had to complain about is feeling like men run THE CHURCH. In the polygamy days, a goodly number of women felt understandably deprived of the male companionship that they wanted and felt they deserved.
If you think Mormon society is abusive to females, as Ross does, than you are just as duped by inaccurate (malicious) "reporting" as she is.
I only "virtually" slap with words. Same as in physical company. And the way I write on this forum is a perfect example of the phraseology I employ. If you feel "slapped", then I'd say the problem is yours, not mine.
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
|
Posted
Errata: let me clarify something, before someone goes looking for anecdotal exceptions to my use of NEVER: I mean, that Mormon society never condoned prejudice against women. The law of the church and the state never allowed any abuse of women, vis-a-vis property, autonomy, etc. You will find cases where a woman was abused and deprived by her husband, and even her priesthood leaders. You will find such exceptions to the law and church doctrine, in any religious society.
But there is nothing in the preaching that is doctrine, that condones any such behavior toward their wives by husbands. And a ton of reprimand material (check out just about any general conference going back to the beginning) for husbands/men who treat women poorly, or feel that they have some superiority over women in the church.
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
|
Posted
Merlin, you appear to have missed both points I was making.
First, women are most patronised, and told how deeply special and spiritual they are, in groups and societies in which they are most denied autonomy.
Second, I was not 'slapped' by you, but was horrified at the use of the term in your response to Ross. It was insulting and demeaning.
And I am intrigued that you have presumed I am a woman, simply because of my response to your postings. Interesting.
G
--------------------
Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
chicklegirl
Shipmate
# 11741
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tumphouse:
The Victorian term was 'The Angel in the House', who had no rights other then those her husband allowed her. So that is what Mormonism is like if you are a woman?
Being a Morman woman, I may be in a better position to answer this than Merlin. No, that is not what Mormonism in general is like for a woman. Every denomination (including Mormonism) counts among its number some truly despicable men who marginalize, denigrate or abuse women. But Mormon doctrine (and when I say doctrine, I mean our official scriptures and church leaders when they are speaking in an official capacity--not when they're "off the clock") abhors and discourages such behavior and in my observation it is the exception rather than the rule in my church.
Despite the fact that Mormon women do not have the priesthood as men do, I've never felt that not having the priesthood made me a second-class citizen. I've never felt that the doctrine oppressed me, and trust me when I say that if I did, I would leave (I'm too opinionated and obnoxious to put up with that kind of garbage; just ask Mr. Chickle).
There are certain doctrines in Mormonism that at a superficial inspection may appear to be sexist; the one that keeps coming up on this thread is that at final judgement, in order for a woman to attain the highest possible level of glory, her husband has to call her name. I believe that, but I don't believe it's sexist in that while my husband will be the one to call me, he's not going anywhere without me--the doctrine is very clear that a man is also incapable of achieving that highest level without his wife. Whether or not you believe that doctrine (which I admit, must sound really bizarre to someone who isn't raised with it!), the one thing it isn't is sexist; Mormons believe that the salvation of husband and wife at that highest level are intertwined, dependent upon being a unit comprised of two equal partners. This makes complete sense to me in the context that the purpose of marriage is not only to have a family, but for a man and a woman to work in unity in keeping God's commandments and grow together in the Lord--to be equally yoked. The "name being called" is part of a priesthood ordinance (like baptism, for example) which must be performed with the proper priesthood authority, which the husband will have if he reaches that point.
I think Merlin attempted to explain in his own way why women in the Mormon church don't have the priesthood. My answer to that question is, I don't know why not, but I don't have a problem with it. I don't feel like I have to do all the same things a man does to be his equal. Frankly, I can do quite a few things that men can't. My faith in God, in the Bible, tells me that it is God's word, His will that men have the priesthood, and call it naive if you will, but that's good enough for me. (I know that many will disagree with that interpretation of the Bible. Don't worry; I'm not trying to convince anyone.) I'm married to a wonderful man who uses the priesthood to bless not only me and our son, but also other people both inside and outside our church. In the twelve years that we've been married, I've observed that having to use the priesthood to serve others has deepened his character and helped him to be be more humble. At the same time, I don't begrudge that or feel like I'm missing out because I don't have the priesthood; I have access to its blessings through him whenever I need them.
Sorry for such a lengthy post, but let me conclude by saying that I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm right, nor do I want to engage in a lengthy point-by-point repartee; I'm merely attempting to explain why a rational woman (well, mostly rational when I'm not pregnant!) would be a member of such a church and feel that it had something to offer her. I don't have answers to all the hard questions about horrible things Mormon leaders have done, but as a student of history, I've seen that virtually every religion has systematically tried to eliminate/assimilate their competition, had leaders who beheaded insubordinate wives or practiced polygamy, or has engaged in other equally heinous crimes. I don't personally agree with whitewashing embarrassing incidents because somehow, it always comes back to bite you where it hurts the most. That said, I believe what I do: in living prophets; the truth of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price; a Godhead comprised of Father, Son and Holy Ghost as separate beings with a single purpose; and finally, that salvation comes only through obedience to and faith in Jesus Christ. I can't really explain or justify all these crazy beliefs in a way that will satisfy anyone but me. I like how C.S. Lewis said it: "I believe in Christ as I believe in the rising sun; not that I can see it, but that by it I can see everything." For me, Mormonism has been what puts life into context and distills in me a purpose to follow Christ, serve others, and do my utmost to be a better person.
--------------------
If you want to be happy, be.
~ Henry David Thoreau
Posts: 916 | From: Sixth Circle of Hell | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tumphouse:
Merlin, you appear to have missed both points I was making.
First, women are most patronised, and told how deeply special and spiritual they are, in groups and societies in which they are most denied autonomy.
Second, I was not 'slapped' by you, but was horrified at the use of the term in your response to Ross. It was insulting and demeaning.
And I am intrigued that you have presumed I am a woman, simply because of my response to your postings. Interesting.
G
I didn't presume you are a women. But you acted "slapped." I was answering text. I don't usually even think of "male or female" unless it is obvious.
I admit, my use of the term was uncalled for. As it has offended members of both genders, I apologize.
The original point: so, Mormon men can't be sincere in their public protestations of affection and admiration for their wives. Because this is proof that they are "beating their wives." Interesting....
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
|
Posted
Again, Merlin, you miss my point. I no where suggest that these men are 'beating' their wives. I simply point out that in socieities where men make the type of public proclamations you describe, woman tend to lack autonomy. This does not mean that they are 'beaten'
G
--------------------
Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chicklegirl:
...There are certain doctrines in Mormonism that at a superficial inspection may appear to be sexist; the one that keeps coming up on this thread is that at final judgement, in order for a woman to attain the highest possible level of glory, her husband has to call her name. I believe that, but I don't believe it's sexist...
Oh, my. What would you call it, then? How can you justify such a vile doctrine? How can you pretend it's Christian? Have you really thought this one through?
It's bad enough that women are unequal in most societies (and the Mormon organization did an awful lot to keep the Equal Rights Amendment from becoming law, funding do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do Phyllis Schlafly's know-nothing Eagle Forum, among others, for that purpose). But one of the wonderful things about Christianity -- as opposed to Mormonism -- is that women ARE equal in Christ and in eternity.
The whole idea that women are condemned to eternal servitude unless Hubby "lifts the veil" and whispers that oh-so-secret name is nothing short of disgusting. He can be "sealed" to a whole harem, if you buy into that theology -- but she's utterly dependent on him, no matter how else she has lived her life. It simply demonstrates the completely man-made nature of Mormonism.
It's sad that women are prevented from following their vocations just because of gender in most religions, including many Christian denominations. It's appalling that anyone could buy into the notion that we're nothing but second-class brood mares for all eternity.
My denomination has its faults, but at least it doesn't mistake the nastiest sort of male fantasy for God's will.
Ross // no doubt our resident Mormon male will be moved to *slap* me again for this one
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
... I admit, my use of the term was uncalled for. As it has offended members of both genders, I apologize.
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
... Ross // no doubt our resident Mormon male will be moved to *slap* me again for this one
No doubt, you're unable to accept apologies from resident Mormon males.
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tumphouse:
Again, Merlin, you miss my point. I no where suggest that these men are 'beating' their wives. I simply point out that in socieities where men make the type of public proclamations you describe, woman tend to lack autonomy. This does not mean that they are 'beaten'
G
"Beating their wives" was in quotes, to qualify it (had you heard my voice there would be no misunderstanding). It harks to the example of how a leading question can implicate you: e.g. "Why are you beating your wife?" This is unanswerable, because it is wrong from the getgo.
Similarly, making a point, that OTHER societies which are known to be discriminatory toward their women, yet laud them rhetorical praise, is portraying Mormonism the same way. I have called Ross on her understanding of Mormonism's male/female relations: she continues to insist that I am wrong, that she knows more about my church than I do. And it is impossible to get through to someone who won't see that their perception is skewed by too much reading of anti Mormon sources.
In Mormon society, women have ALWAYS been seen as equal to men, because without each other neither gets to the "highest heaven." And in that heaven, everyone is EQUAL. Especially in the modern church, where all teaching on polygamy has long ago disappeared (even to the point of rubbing all traces of it out in modern biographies of the early leaders who practiced it), there is no chance that "harems" and such are part of Mormon heaven. If that makes the church changeable, well, so what? Religion needs to minister to the needs of its people; not force them to accept what they simply refuse to accept. That's why everyone's religions these days continue to change. (E.g. RCC's recent statement on unbaptised babies in "limbo", overturned completely: a centuries-long teaching rendered finally as "not doctrine".)
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
No doubt, you're unable to accept apologies from resident Mormon males.
No, but I should have read all the way through the thread. I'm sorry for that.
On the other hand, he's apologized in the past for putting words on my keyboard -- and then turned right around and done it again, and again, and again...
Ross
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
|
Posted
A modest suggestion to all - shall we move on?
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
--------------------
Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
A modest suggestion to all - shall we move on?
Yes, I think the main points about Mormonism have all been made -- in most cases, several times. Thank you for your patience, Duo.
Ross
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
