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Originally posted by MouseThief:

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
I think it means something along the lines of "A person is not a Christian because her mother and father are Christians. A person is a Christian because she has developed her own friendship with God in Christ."

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Which just moves the question into new words. What is a personal relationship with Christ? What does that look like? What is my own friendship with God in Christ? What would that look like?

How can anybody tell by looking at another whether they have this "personal relationship" with Jesus?

How can I tell by looking at myself whether I have this "personal relationship" with Jesus?

If I'm told over and over that I must have this "personal relationship" in order to be saved, but nobody tells me how I can determine whether or not I have it, I'm kind of in a perpetual panic mode. If I don't have it, I won't be saved, but I can never tell if I do have it.

I know there are people who (according to their own reports, which I have no reason to doubt) really feel the presence of God in their lives. I have no such feeling. I have heard many other people, of various levels of devoutness (according, again, to their own reports) say they believe themselves to be Christian, and yet have no such feeling.

It seems to me the language of "personal relationship" does more harm than good. Yes, you're not a Christian just because your parents were. Nevertheless an undefined "personal relationship" is an impossible criterion to apply usefully. Perhaps it's time to put it on the shelf.

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Prayer is the key and cornerstone of our relationship with our Lord. Without prayer, there is no relationship with God. The "Good News" of the Gospel is that the unknowable and faceless God of the Old Testament has revealed Himself to the world; through the Incarnation of Jesus, God now has a "face"; through the Person of Jesus Christ we can enter a personal relationship with God. (John 14:6). Through prayer we can enter into this relationship with God; through prayer He reveals His will to us.

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Originally posted by andreas1984:
You said we can relate with a human being, Jesus... But Jesus IS NOT A HUMAN BEING. He is a Divine Being (since you want to use the term being in the way ordinary people nowadays use it) Who manifested Himself in the flesh.

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
I think Orthodox Christians know exactly what a personal relationship with God is - at least going by this website quote.

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Originally posted by Josephine:

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Originally posted by Eliab:
The exact words “personal relationship” might not be in the Bible, but relational language certainly is.

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If that's what you mean, personal language is used throughout our prayers and services. So, for example, The Akathist of Thanksgiving, The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, and akathist prayers to the saints (like this one to my patron, St. Joseph the Betrothed) are intensely, poetically, personal.

We don't have any problem at all with personal language.

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Originally posted by Eliab:
It's because I know that Orthodoxy cherishes such prayers as those, that I was surprised to see any Orthodox antipathy to the words "personal relationship with Jesus".

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Originally posted by MouseThief:

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
I think Orthodox Christians know exactly what a personal relationship with God is - at least going by this website quote.

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Yes, because of course (A) every website that claims to be Orthodox is;

Can you see why your claim is offensive?

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WE ARE NOT HERE JUST FOR OUR OWN PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST, BUT TO SHARE THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH ALL OTHER PEOPLE.

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
from American Carpatho Russian Orthodox Dicese of the USA

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Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:

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Originally posted by Fauja:
When it comes to expressing your point of view about your own spiritual beliefs, there isn't necessarily a right/wrong, correct/incorrect, appropriate/inappropraite way of doing it.

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Sometimes, yes there is. If my way of describing my spiritual beliefs results in my talking nonsense, for example. If I believe that God can create a stone too heavy for God to lift. Or if I say, 'God is a square circle', you can pull me up on it. In spite of the supposed sanctity, in these days of consumer spirituality, of 'my way of expressing my beliefs', you would be correct so to do.

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And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

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I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
I know that they are orthodox because it is in the links from your own church website.

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Originally posted by Fauja:
Again in Ephesians 1:17, Paul prays:

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I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

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How can knowing him better mean anything other than something personal?

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Originally posted by Josephine:

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
To me - although I might disagree with some details - Revolutionist's overall description is, I think, fairly classic.

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Here's what I heard when I read Revolutionist's description:

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evangelicals such as myself often use the term "personal relationship" in contrast to, say, a corporate relationship, such as between God and with humanity in general, or in contrast to having to go through another human person or institution as a mediator. Because we all know that you can go directly to God, and priests are unnecessary, and sacraments and saints are just evil and vile things that get in the way of a personal relationship with God, so if you go to a priest to confess your sins instead of confessing directly to God, or if you think the prayers of the saints are of any benefit to you, and you pray to them instead of praying to God, then you don't have a personal relationship with Jesus and aren't really a Christian at all.

It isn't just that Jesus died and rose for mankind in general, he did that for me. And if you haven't had a conversion experience like I had, you're not really a Christian. What's more, I can pray to him and hear him speaking to me personally, not just through a priest or Church institution or whatever. And if you think Church and priest are important to the way you relate to God, you're just flat wrong.
God is at work in my life specifically as well as the world generally. He knows me intimately, and I can have an experience of God myself, rather than it just being for some super-holy religious elite or anything like that. Because, of course, any tradition that has things like monks and nuns and priests and saints believes that God only works in those people, and doesn't work in or care about ordinary people, and if you benighted people would just believe what I believe, and accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior (because, obviously, you know, you haven't done that, since you use incense and icons and your church has a priest that wears funny robes, and you call your priest Father and you all say prayers in unison, which God doesn't like), you could have a personal relationship with Jesus, too, and be just like me, because I'm a real Christian and you, obviously, are not.

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And, since I don't know Revolutionist as well as I know some other Shipmates, I'm not sure whether he means it that way or not. I'd like to believe he doesn't. But it's hard for me to hear it any other way.

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I am saying that I object to the phrase, "a personal relationship with Jesus," because in my experience, those who use it define it in a particularly narrow way. In my experience, having a personal relationship with Jesus is defined as having had a conversion experience, holding an inerrantist view of Scriptures, and using exclusively extemporaneous prayers. Furthermore, in my experience, the definition specifically excludes any relationship with Jesus that is communal and liturgical, and of which tradition and ritual are important components. Therefore, the use of this term, in my experience, can normally be understood as saying, "I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I am a Christian. You don't. You aren't."

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I still don't see why "personal" in this context has to be opposed to corporate. As I said before, to me the opposite of "personal" in this context would be "impersonal" -- i.e. a Deist concept of God, remote and uninterested in my life. I wouldn't expect a Deist to have a PRWJ. But I have always assumed that Catholics and Orthodox and all other kinds of devout Christians had PRsWJ even if they did not use that language to describe it. The greater emphasis on the corporate experience (which is important too, even in most evangelical Protestant traditions), and even the use of priests as mediators, does nothing (in my mind) to decrease the "personal" nature of the individual's relationship with Jesus. It is both personal AND corporate -- we share it and deepen it through worshipping with other believers -- neither excludes the other.

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Originally posted by Josephine:
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The problem, of course, is that language is a social construct, not an individual one. It exists between people, and is based on mutual understanding and experience. You and I both know what we mean by blue, or milk or by any number of other words. When you order coffee at a restaurant, you know what you'll be getting, because your experience with the use of the word has taught you to associate it with a particular dark beverage. That's how language works.

Unfortunately, my experience with the use of the phrase "personal relationship with Jesus" has taught me to associate it with the beliefs I outlined earlier. I can't hear the phrase apart from my experience of when and how and why and by whom it was used, any more than I can hear "coffee" apart from my experience of that word.

You have added something to my experience of the word -- but, sadly, I can't trust that the next person who uses it will mean by it what you mean by it.

It could be that, over time, people like you can take the word back, rehabilitate it, and the people who use it as abuse will have to find a new term to use. There's a wonderful short story about a black man who does exactly that with the Confederate battle flag. It's possible.

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It's a bit like the word "Christian" used by some super zapped up extremo Proddies which excludes most of my friends who are Christian: Anglicans, Catholics et sim.

My most personal time with Jesus is when I receive Holy Communion. N-O-T-H-I-N-G matches it.

And I don't give a hoot what the Rev'd Jedediah Bludger of The Ghastly Last Remnant Christian Loony Tune Church of Vulture, Colorado thinks!

May God bless and protect traditional, sane, mainstream Christianity from the self-appointed evangelists of "trooth" and bring the moronic machinations of the latter to naught!



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Originally posted by Chorister:
I admire those who have the personal discipline to have an entirely individual experience of faith. For me, and others like me, it is necessary to have a corporate experience, otherwise it probably just wouldn't happen.

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I'm just a coward: I couldn't face a whole congregation of people and profess my faith. I'm coming out in a cold sweat just thinking about it.

Also, I like all the old tunes I grew up with, the old liturgy I had at school, the old way of saying Our Father, a solemn 'High' Mass: you don't get much of that round here, I'm afraid. I seem to be in a sea of Prosperity Gospel churches and I cannot subscribe to that, given Christ's chosen poverty and work with the outsiders. Add to that a family of atheists and scoffers, I'm a very quiet follower of Jesus - though when pushed I will talk about my faith, much to the bemusement / shame of my relatives...

I am the lost sheep of the family because I found Jesus - how very ironic.



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Actually on a real ship but not all at sea

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
And I don't give a hoot what the Rev'd Jedediah Bludger of The Ghastly Last Remnant Christian Loony Tune Church of Vulture, Colorado thinks!

May God bless and protect traditional, sane, mainstream Christianity from the self-appointed evangelists of "trooth" and bring the moronic machinations of the latter to naught!

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See, this is the kind of discourse that really builds bridges within the Body of Christ.

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Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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Originally posted by Hermes66:
Surely each of us here has had direct experience of Him speaking to us, directly to our hearts?

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Originally posted by Josephine:

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Originally posted by Hermes66:
Surely each of us here has had direct experience of Him speaking to us, directly to our hearts?

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Ummm, no. There are many Christians who have never had any such experience, ever. These are often the folks who have a great problem with the expression "personal relationship with Jesus," because they expect that, with such a relationship, they should have such feelings and experiences, and they don't.

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Oh, I'm sorry to assume. *cringes.

Some people have enormous Faith, then, to carry on without an external sign of encouragement from Him. I would assume the 'fuzzy touchy feely PRWJ' accounts must be sorely trying, in those circumstances.




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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

For those who use the phrase PRWJ, or for whom the phrase makes sense in a helpful way -- would "personal relationship with God" or "personal relationship with God the Father" or "personal relationship with the Holy Spirit" mean the same things? Similar things? Mostly different things?

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I don't tend to use the term PRWJ, but I do use the terms "personal relationship with God/Holy Spirit/Universe."

I have theological reasons for using those words rather than PRWJ--even though the ministry of Jesus has affected me profoundly. And I don't want to start a tangent by getting into who Christ is to me, etc.

Since PRWJ is used so widely, AR, is substituting words here adding to the confusion or making things clearer? I'm not sure. Good of you to offer, though.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Callan I am sorry about the post I made - that could have been read in a different way than intended and as I said if you had wanted to you could have taken me to that warm place for it.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
A simple question: do you talk to Jesus in your prayers?

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Originally posted by Laura:
Just another personal story of personal antipathy to the phrase, "personal relationship with Jesus". The guy from the local Baptist church who came round my door one day a few years ago asked me if I had "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." I said that I had, but didn't call it that, and unpacked that a bit, explaining that I was an Episcopalian. He said that I did not then have that sort of relationship, and implied that Episcopal Church was the next step over to Rome. Interestingly, he also asked me if I "knew for sure" that I was going to Heaven when I died. I said, I hoped so, but to say I was sure seemed presumptuous to me, as it wasn't going to be my judgment call, was it? So no, I didn't "know" that. Also, I said, while resurrection at the last day is promised, it wasn't at all clear what was going to be going on in the middle time between death and resurrection. It all went rather downhill from there...

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Originally posted by andreas1984:
I would use the phrase "a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit", just like the ancient Church used the phrase "God created the Universe through His Word in His Spirit"...

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
A simple question: do you talk to Jesus in your prayers?

If so, this is both personal and relational.

Who needs theology when you can just have faith?

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I am more than aware, Andreas, that 'communion', as you put it, is more than talking, but one cannot escape the fact that we all approach God with words, that Jesus himself used words and that he taught us some words to pray.

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Originally posted by Josephine:
The reason you need theology and not just faith should be clear if you read the above and replace Jesus with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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Originally posted by andreas1984:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I am more than aware, Andreas, that 'communion', as you put it, is more than talking, but one cannot escape the fact that we all approach God with words, that Jesus himself used words and that he taught us some words to pray.

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Words are the first step in our journey... We can go beyond words and "pray with the heart", praying at all times undisturbed by what takes place around us...

Christ used words, but those words where shades of the truth the Holy Spirit was supposed to effect on in Pentecost. He even taught us some words to pray, but he didn't define the wholeness of praying that way.

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Originally Posted by Mudfrog:
So people who use words are at the first stage of the journey, whereas you are so much further on? Interesting.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So people who use words are at the first stage of the journey, whereas you are so much further on? Interesting.

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
And I don't give a hoot what the Rev'd Jedediah Bludger of The Ghastly Last Remnant Christian Loony Tune Church of Vulture, Colorado thinks!

May God bless and protect traditional, sane, mainstream Christianity from the self-appointed evangelists of "trooth" and bring the moronic machinations of the latter to naught!

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See, this is the kind of discourse that really builds bridges within the Body of Christ.

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Let her who is perfect, if not a Perfect 10, cast the first stone, O Divinely Scrumtous One.

Preferably with a maturity level above that of a 10 year old.

But then again, I suppose you're being yourself!



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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I felt that your post was doing the same thing from the opposite direction. Sorry if my method of pointing it out sounded like a 10-year-old, but derisive name calling, especially when done by Christians, of other Christians, irritates me.

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
For those who use the phrase PRWJ, or for whom the phrase makes sense in a helpful way -- would "personal relationship with God" or "personal relationship with God the Father" or "personal relationship with the Holy Spirit" mean the same things?

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