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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The till at the doorway
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
This from a slightly different perspective, but I feel moved to come to some sort of "defence" of Canterbury:
A few years ago (maybe 7?) I was tour manager for a group of about 20 folks from a US cathedral congregation. Our itinerary covered London, Canterbury, Winchester, Gloucester, Coventry, York, Durham & Edinburgh - lots of the "biggies." With so much ground to cover there was not much flexibility in our plans, so I had written months in advance to the various deans and provosts, explaining that this was a sort of pilgrimage, and that while we were interested in touristy things, we were most concerned to worship at each of the sites.
All of the authorities addressed were unfailingly gracious, and no fees were charged nor donations suggested.
And the point of this posting is:
Canterbury agreed to our visit, though it was on a day when the cathedral was closed for cleaning (it was the day after the Flower Festival, IIRC). A staff member was deputed to guide us about and answer our questions, and he was most gracious.
So you never know.
BTW, before my very first visit to England many, many years ago, a knowledgeable friend said "Always carry a prayer book, and say you're there for the service." Worked every time for me - though it has to be at service time.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Foolishly posted by The Silent Acolyte:
So, £20 is approximately $21 in the US and Canada, but about $23.50 in Australia and $26.50 in NZ.
Oops. Too right. Please make that: "So, £10 is approximately $21 in the US and Canada, but about $23.50 in Australia and $26.50 in NZ."
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Pure Sunshine
Shipmate
# 11904
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Posted
Re. York Minster - it is at least free to local residents (they can get a free "York Card" which gives free entry to the Minster, Yorkshire Museum, acts as a library card and doubtless does other wonderful things).
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Pure Sunshine by name, and sometimes by nature.
Posts: 472 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
jlg,
I do not consider myself superior to tourists or anyone, and, as for being 'genuinely' impoverished, I can assure you that I do not lie here or anywhere else.
I am not suggesting that I am superior in saying that I cannot afford the amounts of the donations some of these places request. I far preferred when there just was a donation box, where I could leave what I could afford.
There was absolutely no reason for your personal attack on me here. One of the justifications I have seen for the 'till at the door' (with set amounts - perhaps six pounds) was that tourists are not coming to pray at all. I am merely asking a discreet fashion to offer what I can pay rather than the standard donations. I do not think that my praying and reflecting to write essays on theological topics makes me superior.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
/commercial break/
For those who (like Smudgie) found their visit to Canterbury less than edifying, may I suggest calling in just up the road at Kent's second Cathedral, to wit, Rochester? No entry charges and plenty of space in which to pray, meditate or simply stroll around!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I, too, had experiences similar to those of the priest who went to Canterbury.
I wanted to add this (before I leave the board, which I assume is jlg's wish in any case) - it was someone I knew who was employed at Westminster Abbey who had told me that the huge influx of tourists in recent years was largely because people wanted to see where Diana's funeral was held, and that it was similar at Saint Paul's (Diana's wedding). This was not an assumption of mine.
I have found that praying before the sacrament, and reflecting on scripture and patristic writings in the area of cathedrals, is helpful in preparing theological essays. One of the main reasons why I have read of and seen large entrance fees (in US dollars, it would come to 20 or more in some cathedrals) justified was that (according to the authors, not according to me) most tourists are not coming to worship / pray, but to view an attraction, and therefore fees similar to those for royal properties and the like were reasonable.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Or, if looking for an Anglican shrine to pray or read in, neither do places like St Martin in the Fields, or All Saints Margaret Street, or All Souls Langham Place or Holy Trinity Brompton. London caters for all megachurchmanships.
I deeply wish my parish in Chicago could be open all day for prayer, reading, meditation, etc. But there would need to be volunteers or, more likely, a paid person to supervise the church during those hours to discourage bad behavior. Enough really bad behavior has happened in the past to require the lockup of the building between the morning and evening sets of services.
There really aren't many churches in Chicago that are open for prayer all day, other than the RC cathedral, St Peter's (the 41-Masses-per-week Franciscan parish downtown), and possibly the chapel of the Episcopal cathedral. I live two blocks from St Gertrude's RC, which would be lovely to pray in, but one has to get special permission and be let in by the parish office manager, and I don't want to put him through that every day. I also don't need to sit in a locked church by myself; the openness to all is important. Oh, there's also Fourth Presbyterian, which is open all day and quite nice to sit in and pray.
None of the churches here charge an admission, AFAIK.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
To expand on Ken's idea, here is a list of one prominent US Anglo-Catholic priest's favorite 100 churches in England:
http://tinyurl.com/yur5zl
Perhaps this might provide some low- or no-cost alternatives to the pay-to-pray policy at the cathedrals under discussion.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
It's funny but the more I ponder this question, the more irritated I get at the very idea of charging a fee to enter a cathedral. Cathedrals are churches, the most visible churches to many people, and how we act towards people with respect to such churches is deeply symbolic.
Yes, we recognise that you might be moved to worship in here, you might have an experience of God, you might feel a connection with the Church through the ages, and if you hand over your eight pounds fifty we'll give you that chance but otherwise piss off. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
It's like selling indulgences.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I, too, had experiences similar to those of the priest who went to Canterbury.
I wanted to add this (before I leave the board, which I assume is jlg's wish in any case) - it was someone I knew who was employed at Westminster Abbey who had told me that the huge influx of tourists in recent years was largely because people wanted to see where Diana's funeral was held, and that it was similar at Saint Paul's (Diana's wedding). This was not an assumption of mine.
I have found that praying before the sacrament, and reflecting on scripture and patristic writings in the area of cathedrals, is helpful in preparing theological essays. One of the main reasons why I have read of and seen large entrance fees (in US dollars, it would come to 20 or more in some cathedrals) justified was that (according to the authors, not according to me) most tourists are not coming to worship / pray, but to view an attraction, and therefore fees similar to those for royal properties and the like were reasonable.
I very much hope that NO will not leave the board, or even this thread.
It was an excellent OP made all the more meaningful by paritcular personal circumstances which give strong reasons why the turnstile approach is the wrong one.
And if Deans and Chapters really think that most visitors to their cathedrals are unspiritual tourists then they [a] need a strong dose of incarnational theology, and [b] a much more Christ-centred pastoral approach. Since this is not Hell I'll refrain from saying any more, except that I suspect the reason many (not all, as I can vouch from experience) cathedral clergy gravitate to such jobs is their lack of pastoral concern.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
To expand on Ken's idea, here is a list of one prominent US Anglo-Catholic priest's favorite 100 churches in England:
http://tinyurl.com/yur5zl
Perhaps this might provide some low- or no-cost alternatives to the pay-to-pray policy at the cathedrals under discussion.
For someone who likes Bodley and Kempe churches he missed more than a few. See here for some more churches.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
My apologies to Newman's Own for my response, which should have been posted in Hell (or not at all).
As Scott Knitter pointed out a few posts above this one, churches here in the US are usually locked up or open to all (which perhaps an obvious sign and plea for donations at each entrance). Even most museums that I have visited describe their fees as "suggested donations", thus implying that any visitor has the right to donate some other amount. (I've never actually tried offering a lower amount, so I don't know how it's handled when it happens.)
So I assumed that an impoverished student visiting often at local places would be able to work out some arrangement (either officially with the powers that be or simply something that met the need to be seen dropping some coins in a box with a clear conscience) that would allow access to a church on a regular basis for prayer and reflection without having to pay the standard tourist tariff.
The many posts by others since I made my responses to you, Newman's Own, have described a much different situation at the major cathedrals in the UK. It's a very sad one, where the need to milk the tourist coins in order to maintain the physical structure and the expense associated with handling hordes of tourists is interfering with the actual purpose of the buildings as churches.
I stand corrected.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Thank you, Jennifer. You and Newman's Own are two of my favorite posters, and the misunderstanding and ruffled feathers disturbed me considerably.
Greta
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Okay, so a building that's only a hundred years old may not seem impressive to some of you all in England or on the continent, but the church I go to is a beautiful building and so its age gets noticed here. We also try to keep out building open as much as possible--almost all day but not at night). Most people don't come to pray as far as I can tell but lots of worship groups and even non-profits do meet in our building and one can usually find an interesting cross-section of the local community in our lobby. We would never dream of charging anyone but I can tell you that the costs are deadly. I think we've fixed most of the places that the roof leaks but that doesn't count the paint needs, the lack of an accessible upstairs bathroom, the holes, the ancient (behind code) electrical system, the water-damage etc. And oh yes, apparently the building is sinking. We're thousands of dollars in the red at the moment, but we have enough caring volunteers to keep teh place open and clean.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
In my youth, I attended a Mass at the Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal Oak, MI. At the entrance, there was a table bearing a large sign stating, "Low Mass: $5.00 - High Mass: $10.00".
Everyone who entered was herded past the table by a platoon of ushers. Royal Oak was, at the time, a rather affluent suburb, but I still found the practice quite insensitive. Surely, from time to time, there would have been visitors, who simply would not have been able to afford that kind of admission charge.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Even most museums that I have visited describe their fees as "suggested donations", thus implying that any visitor has the right to donate some other amount.
I learned recently from a reliable source that, in many jurisdictions, if you charge admission to an event, you are subject to all sorts of licensing, taxing, occupancy, and fire code requirements, etc. that can all be avoided by charging a "suggested donation" instead.
So, according to my source, the "suggested donation" should be regarded as a fairly set price for the service or entertainment being offered.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
As a sort of very major tangent, in a church which I used to attend regularly, wine at things like the Nine Lessons and Carols was 'sold' at "Recommended donation: £1 per glass".
At a recent church do, I was astounded to see "Wine: £1.50 a glass; Fruit Juice: 50p a glass." Given that there were no free drinks and that the fruit juice was about 40 p a carton from Tesco, I was really rather cross.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Which is much to much for almost anybody. Are they turning houses of prayer into robbers' dens? Any other way at all? I know the buildings bave to be preserved, but for what?
I have been to services in these places. The weekday Evensong at Westminster Abbey IS for the tourists, nearly all of whom are from overseas.
Wonder if Westminster Abbey has a congregation at all. "O our family's prayed at Westminster Abbey for generations, all baptised there, and Barbara married there last week." Never heard that before!
So maybe they are more like museums than places of worship.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Tangent:
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
To expand on Ken's idea, here is a list of one prominent US Anglo-Catholic priest's favorite 100 churches in England:
http://tinyurl.com/yur5zl
Perhaps this might provide some low- or no-cost alternatives to the pay-to-pray policy at the cathedrals under discussion.
I think I'm going to start another thread on that.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Okay, so a building that's only a hundred years old may not seem impressive to some of you all in England or on the continent, but the church I go to is a beautiful building and so its age gets noticed here. We also try to keep out building open as much as possible--almost all day but not at night)....
OK. Now imagine trying to do the same with a building that is 500-800 years old, when the law says that you have to use appropriate materials (e.g. replacing leaded glass with leaded glass even when black aluminium is much cheaper, easier and stronger than lead).
Now imagine that there's one of those buildings for every hundred or so churchgoers.
ETA - And I'd be surprised if any of the old cathedrals has enough congregational giving to be self sufficient.
[ 08. August 2007, 23:55: Message edited by: Custard. ]
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
The 100 years old does amuse me in a way. Most peoples houses I know are nearly, if not 100 years old. I think like custard said, the problems in the uk are that many (most?) churches are a lot older than that and many being supported by very small congregations.
I instinctively don't like having to pay to visit a cathedral but I'm not sure how else they could work. Unless they became historic buildings first (looked after by national trust or some such) and then used by religious groups to meet in by agreement. (I think Iona is a bit like this?) As someone who happily does church in a school that would suit me, but I would also want to preserve many of these old buildings for their tradition etc.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Didn't Jesus say something about a woman who gave two pennies to walk into a huge ass cathedral somewhere...?
And I've heard preachers say that this line was a criticism of said cathedral and the people who spent oodles of money on material structures to the expense of the people around them (not criticism of anyone intended, but it's a thought).
It's not about the freaking building, even if it is a historical landmark (and I agree that some of the laws with regard to "historical landmarks" are bit deranged, speaking of idolatry).
It's also a real shame that our beautiful middle-aged church building is a money sink, but it is, and our congregation can't really afford to pay for it. It's a managed crisis I imagine is not unique to our church, and it's something I imagine middle aged mainline churches need to find a way to deal with.
Charging admission to visitors who wish to pray seems a bit odd. The point of an offering is that it's voluntary.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
I still feel ill when I see the window in Ely Cathedral's Lady chapel that is "sponsored by Tesco" - it tells us so in the glass itself! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
(edited to correct grammar)
[ 09. August 2007, 03:31: Message edited by: Love the You you hide ]
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
The point of an offering is that it's voluntary.
As has been said, though, and will be said again, cathedrals such as Durham cost about £4,000 per day to run. I'm pleased that Durham is still able to ask for a voluntary contribution but those voluntary contributions tend to add up to a few hundred pounds. Even taking into account the proceeds from the exhibitions, the tower and the undercroft restaurant, that's a large shortfall!
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
As a sort of very major tangent, in a church which I used to attend regularly, wine at things like the Nine Lessons and Carols was 'sold' at "Recommended donation: £1 per glass".
At a recent church do, I was astounded to see "Wine: £1.50 a glass; Fruit Juice: 50p a glass." Given that there were no free drinks and that the fruit juice was about 40 p a carton from Tesco, I was really rather cross.
Thurible
If they are able to actually sell alcohol rather than do the 'donation' route then they will have to hold a licence and that is very expensive.
Even churches have to be financially astute nowadays.
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
Posts: 1914 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Quite. They didn't have a licence...
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Love the You you hide:
I still feel ill when I see the window in Ely Cathedral's Lady chapel that is "sponsored by Tesco" - it tells us so in the glass itself!
(edited to correct grammar)
Well, guilds etc used to give money for the building of cathedrals. Is it so different? And it's common for windows to have `To the glory of God and in memory of X' in them.
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
ETA - And I'd be surprised if any of the old cathedrals has enough congregational giving to be self sufficient.
Depends on quite what you mean by self-sufficient. Llandaff does fairly well on congregational giving; it's the parish church as well and has good congregations for both the Parish and Sung Eucharists on a Sunday. But it's been appealing for money for new lights and wiring and now for a new organ (which was always in the plan but the lightening strike made it more urgent). But that's fairly normal for large scale projects. It does not however charge for entry and I don't even recall much in the way of donations boxes though I'm usually there outside tourist hours as it were and haven't been for a while.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
What I don't understand is how Durham can cost over a million quid a year to run. What exactly is that being spent on?
I know the stonework needs repair from time to time and church roofs are notorious fund-sponges, but a million pounds every year?
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
What I don't understand is how Durham can cost over a million quid a year to run. What exactly is that being spent on?
I know the stonework needs repair from time to time and church roofs are notorious fund-sponges, but a million pounds every year?
Staff.
Heating/lighting/cleaning.
Insurance (the insurance bill for my church is horrendous).
General maintenance tends to be pricy.
Then there's things like admin costs, printing/stationery/advertising.
Music and liturgy.
The list is endless....
And remember the cathedral also has various other buildings etc attached.
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
Posts: 1914 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I attended an evensong at Westminster Abbey.
They escort you to your seat at the start and back to the exit at the end. Since you haven't paid anything, they want to make sure you don't see any of the building while you are in there.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I attended an evensong at Westminster Abbey.
They escort you to your seat at the start and back to the exit at the end. Since you haven't paid anything, they want to make sure you don't see any of the building while you are in there.
Do they blindfold you as well?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
I wonder how these things were paid for when they were monasteries. Should we be putting the Canons to work brewing mead, or something?
More seriously, there's got to be a better way to fund cathedrals than entrance charges. To me they seem to be the worst of the options.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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radagasty
Shipmate
# 11628
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I attended an evensong at Westminster Abbey.
They escort you to your seat at the start and back to the exit at the end. Since you haven't paid anything, they want to make sure you don't see any of the building while you are in there.
When I heard Evensong there (Easter Day this year), we were allowed to wander about the abbey for a while (10 mins or so) after the service, so perhaps they're no longer so strict.
Posts: 78 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jul 2006
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
a) they were newer then
b) indulgences
Oh, and the tithe from the whole population, and the income from glebe lands.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
What I don't understand is how Durham can cost over a million quid a year to run. What exactly is that being spent on?
I know the stonework needs repair from time to time and church roofs are notorious fund-sponges, but a million pounds every year?
From time to time? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
It's like the Forth Bridge - they finish painting it then go back to the other end and start again.
Maintaining large old buildings is a never-ending process. Keeping a parish church intact is bad enough, I can't even begin to imagine what the maintenance of a Cathedral must be like.
I detest the practice of charging an entrance fee, but I can understand why it it happens.
A building doesn't need to be old to be listed - if it was designed by a noteable architect, or is an unusual design, or typical of a particular style, then it may recieve a listing.
With that may come eligibility of grant-aid for maintenance, or repairs, but it also brings with the the 'jobsworths' of English Heritage.
The worst offenders, in my opinion and experience, are the Victorian Society. They will willingly tell you what you can't do and what you must do, but I've never heard of them coughing up any cash to help!
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
According to its web site , Durham Cathedral costs £50,000/week to run (£2.6M p.a.). Winchester Cathedral is reported to be budgeting for running costs in 2007/8 of £2.2M. The cathedral's annual report and accounts are available online (PDF).
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
I wonder how these things were paid for when they were monasteries. Should we be putting the Canons to work brewing mead, or something?
More seriously, there's got to be a better way to fund cathedrals than entrance charges. To me they seem to be the worst of the options.
No heating.
No electric (or gas) lighting
free priestly services
free cleaning and maintenance
no printing/admin costs
Large income (relatively speaking) from visits to shrines/relics.
Ownership of land either used for farming or, in towns, let to businesses.
Bequests and endowments from the faithful in return for promises of prayer.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
According to its web site , Durham Cathedral costs £50,000/week to run (£2.6M p.a.). Winchester
Costs have gone up from when I worked there, then, and that was only a few years ago! Not really surprising, I suppose.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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rosamundi
Ship's lacemaker
# 2495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
In my youth, I attended a Mass at the Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal Oak, MI. At the entrance, there was a table bearing a large sign stating, "Low Mass: $5.00 - High Mass: $10.00".
Charging an attendance fee for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is bloody outrageous and they should be ashamed of themselves.
The collection is different, since that is voluntary, and on several occasions when feeling impecunious I've put pennies in, but an admission fee for Mass? It's wrong.
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Website.
Ship of Fools flickr group
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Might have been a suggestion offering for the collection, phrased particularly badly?
Fingers-crossed!
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
[ETA: Harking back over the page on currency equivalence]
1 Brit pound is roughly Oz$2.50. (closer to 2.40, but x 2/5 to pounds or x 5/2 to dollars is a good rule of thumb.
So 20 pounds is 50 Oz dollars. Which is a fair chunk of change. As is 10 pounds (Oz$25), but the cost of living is more expensive in the UK.
[Oooh tricked by pg 1.]
[ 09. August 2007, 13:13: Message edited by: Jimmy B ]
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
Might what CorgiGreta saw have been the fee for requesting a Mass to be said for your own 'intention' ?
I am not sure if I have the terminology right as I am not Catholic.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Discussion of how, when, why and what restrictions are placed on churches raising funds for maintenance isn't anything to do with worship practice except for the fact that many liturgical churches have a set time for collecting offerings. So I'm sending this up to Purgatory.
Autenrieth Road
Ecclesiantics Host
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
...
Wonder if Westminster Abbey has a congregation at all. "O our family's prayed at Westminster Abbey for generations, all baptised there, and Barbara married there last week." Never heard that before!
So maybe they are more like museums than places of worship.
Depends. Some Catherdrals are in areas where there is a residential population - so they may have people who live locally and worship there. There may be others that travel in from elsewhere to worship there but I suspect that there won't be that many. Others will draw in their congregation from people who work locally so they'll run more evening / lunch time services than weekend stuff.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
...
Wonder if Westminster Abbey has a congregation at all. "O our family's prayed at Westminster Abbey for generations, all baptised there, and Barbara married there last week." Never heard that before!
So maybe they are more like museums than places of worship.
Depends. Some Catherdrals are in areas where there is a residential population - so they may have people who live locally and worship there. There may be others that travel in from elsewhere to worship there but I suspect that there won't be that many. Others will draw in their congregation from people who work locally so they'll run more evening / lunch time services than weekend stuff.
Tubbs
Some double up as parish churches. Llandaf Cathedral does (actually this might be true of all the Welsh Cathedrals) and many of the cathedrals of newer dioceses do -- the so-called `parish church cathedrals' where an old parish church became the cathedral for example Wakefield rather than than somewhere like Liverpool where a new cathedral was built.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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aj
firewire technophobe
# 1383
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Posted
Well, I went to St.Paul's in 1999, paid at the gate, paid again to go upstairs, and thoroughly enjoyed it.
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if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?
Posts: 2994 | From: ...on location | Registered: Sep 2001
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Codepoet
Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
Like other I do not like charges to enter cathedrals, but what I dislike more is when cathedrals guides intercept me on the way in and try to enhance my visit, but treating me like a tourist, and whitering on about the display of artwork in the nave etc etc. I find that the phrase "I am here to pray" defuses most situations.
What I hate the most is when having found a quiet chapel in a corner somewhere, possible behing a half closed door or curtain, my prayertime is interupted with a series of toursists who walk in, stand between me and the focus of devotion, look all the way around, talk loudly to a fellow tourist and then leave. The fact that they have had to pay £5 to get in seems to make them more determined to get their money's worth, even if thay means interupting the peace in a side chapel set asside for private prayer.
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It's more important to be kind than to be right.
Posts: 1156 | From: Southampton | Registered: May 2004
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I used to attend a lunchtime Eucharist at a nearby cathedral fairly frequently. Crossing oneself upon entering was a good way of preventing the tourist treatment by the cathedral guides.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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