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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: When you're hanging on by your fingernails....
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Adeodatus, here are a couple of stories from before I was religious, or would have considered myself a Christian.
Story #1: I worked for a summer during college in a Catholic convent, in the kitchen. (I made salads, in case you were interested, and worked with a crazy Polish chef and a really funny line cook who had graduated from the Culinary Institute of America and spent more time on carving garnishes out of radishes than actually cooking.)
Anyway, there was a guy there, a janitor, who had mental problems. He'd undergone electro-shock therapy when that was the treatment, and he blinked a lot, I think from that. He really didn't have anybody in the world to look after him - so the sisters gave him a job for life. He was always trying to give me St. Christopher medals and bookmarks with prayers to Our Lady on them. He was safe (and useful!) in a world that would almost certainly have let him fall into the gutter and die unnoticed.
2. Story #2: Later, I lived as a roomer in a house with several other people, one of whom was an 80+ year old woman. Also Polish, now that I think of it, and we lived in that house together, on the same floor, until she died at about 87 years old, I think. She really didn't have anything in the world, and not many friends left, either, because she'd outlived them all.
I went to her funeral, and was amazed to see how formal it was, with only a few people in the nave. Her casket was censed, and prayers were sung and said - just as if she'd been the wealthiest and most highly-stationed person on earth instead of a poor old woman who had nothing. I was very impressed, and that's when I started to let my guard down to religion, I think.
Those two stories tell me that Christianity is a most wonderful religion at base, no matter how the Church tries to screw it up. As you may know, I disagree very, very strongly with the Catholic Church on many issues - but if it can get people to behave this way, then I really have no serious quarrel with it at all in the end.
And then there's St. Francis....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
TubaMirum,
No, you're right, I am not your friend And the assurance (albiet tongue in cheek) only related to that initial 'letting go'; not a life-long ( and as you point out - impossible) committment to always be there.
And I think it is relevant to the OP; because once you have let go - you are ultimately alone. There is no-one to turn to during that dark night of the soul; when we must either reject despair...or embrace it.
But a world without God is not empty: On the contrary it is a world full of joy and beauty - as well as saddness and tragedy. In many respects it is a world more open to possibility - as well as perhaps a bolder recognition of the limitations and fragility of life.
But there is certainly no panacea on offer - Is that the ultimate attraction of Christianity?
S-E
PS I have been fortunate to make many friends here; I hope that you will not completely preclude me from that possibility at some point in the future.
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
TubaMirum,
No, you're right, I am not your friend And the assurance (albiet tongue in cheek) only related to that initial 'letting go'; not a life-long ( and as you point out - impossible) committment to always be there.
And I think it is relevant to the OP; because once you have let go - you are ultimately alone. There is no-one to turn to during that dark night of the soul; when we must either reject despair...or embrace it.
But a world without God is not empty: On the contrary it is a world full of joy and beauty - as well as saddness and tragedy. In many respects it is a world more open to possibility - as well as perhaps a bolder recognition of the limitations and fragility of life.
But there is certainly no panacea on offer - Is that the ultimate attraction of Christianity?
S-E
PS I have been fortunate to make many friends here; I hope that you will not completely preclude me from that possibility at some point in the future.
To be honest, I'm a bit suspicious of a claim of "many friends" made in on an internet bulletin board in the space of a few months. "Friendship," to me, is a deep relationship that happens normally over a long period of time. Now, perhaps we have different definitions of the word; perhaps you really do make fast friends in the space of 5 months; perhaps you've been here before using another name and do indeed have long-term friends here.
But so far I just don't buy your claims. And I wonder why you're trying to peddle atheism on a thread that is asking, specifically, about the One Thing that people find most important in their faith. Why the need to do this, rather than starting your own thread on the topic?
And BTW, you've contradicted yourself here already; now you're saying that in fact you won't be there to "catch us" at all; that we just have to "buck up" and accept that we are "ultimately alone." So I'm a bit confused at this point, I must say.
Anyway, how about let's take this outside? If you want to start a thread about the glories of atheism, I'm sure people will be delighted to discuss the topic.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Zealot en vacance
Shipmate
# 9795
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Posted
Pure religion and undefiled is to help those in distress, and remain untarnished by the world. Great yardstick by which to measure the worth of the service industry which has developed around a simple faith. Disengage fingernails and walk in the way your faith tells you is right. You won't be 'in' with many of the religious, but then neither was Jesus much of the time.
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He said, "Love one another".
Posts: 2014 | From: Surface of planet Earth | Registered: Jul 2005
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic Enigma:
as well as perhaps a bolder recognition of the limitations and fragility of life.
I would disagree. Both atheism and theism seem to illustrate that life in and of itself is not fragile. If it was fragile, we wouldn't be here.
Life, in spite of the frailty of its individual components, is probably some of the most resilient stuff the universe has produced.
Our puny egos, on the other hand, are terribly fragile, but it would be a fallacy to say that we are the only hope that life has in the universe.
I guess that's one reason I believe in God, even in those moments when I feel tempted to throw all the theological stuff into a flaming pit.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Alogon and TubaMirum: dammit, you nearly got me with Bach! If anyone ever took dictation from the Holy Spirit, it was JSB. They spoke the same language. But, on the other hand, would it not be glorious and wonderful to ascribe what he did to human genius?
He didn't. He wrote "SDG" or "Soli Deo Gloria" at the end of his compositions, even the secular ones. And he said, "I have worked very hard, and anyone who works as hard can do as well." Not that I'd believe that, either. But Bach did stand in a long tradition, without which he would not have produced what he did. And that tradition had been primarily nurtured by the church. This fact is worth bearing in mind, as well as the work of Bach in isolation.
Something similar applies to Messiaen's and Howells' cases. Howells loved "the immemorial sound of voices" as the church had long cultivated them in choirs.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mechtilde
Shipmate
# 12563
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Maybe cutting that last 0.02% thread would free me up to turn around and take a completely objective look at the church and God.
and
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
It may also have the opposite effect.
Scot, as I read this I thought of how in the dark night of the soul, nothing seems to work anymore, including old ways of praying, believing, imagining and relating to God. And the idea is that God uses those nights to pry our fingers off our attachments (idols, I suppose) and prepare us for a new and improved, deeper relationship with him. That could be one way of letting go having "the opposite effect," producing a deeper faith instead of losing what faith you have left. Sorry if this is deeply obvious and you've already thought about it.
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"Once one has seen God, what is the remedy?"
Sylvia Plath, "Mystic"
Posts: 517 | From: The cloud of unknowing | Registered: Apr 2007
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Ephesians....yeah the Bible...not mentionned all that often anymore but...Ephesians, as first opened up to me at a University course on the Letters of Paul (I am pretty sure Paul didn't write it, but he would have approved)
The wall has been broken down that separated us from God.
That's enough.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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infinite_monkey
Shipmate
# 11333
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Posted
Came across this excellent poem by Rumi today that I thought was apropos.
I especially like these lines:
quote:
So let us rather not be sure of anything,
Beside ourselves, and only that, so
Miraculous beings come running to help,
Crazed, lying in a zero circle, mute,
We shall be saying finally,
With tremendous eloquence, Lead us.
It connected for me to a thought I'd had yesterday during the silent prayer bit in church--how I often found myself asking the basic "are you there, God?" kind of questions, then waiting a second or two, then coming up with my own response, my own belief about whether God was, or wasn't. An endless feedback loop that can be boiled down to sunsets and puppies on one hand, and axe murderers and cancer cells on the other.
My new goal is to get past answering the God question definitively inside my own rattling brain and instead to a point where I'm asking in a space big enough to really let God answer, or fail to.
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His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.
--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com
Posts: 1423 | From: left coast united states | Registered: Apr 2006
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Avalon
Shipmate
# 8094
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Posted
My 'fingernails ' bit is probably like a few others here but I guess every description of it may come form just a slightly different angle. It was like holding onto something I thought was God and thus good and just and cleanly loving; all those God-like things. But with something called religion clutching at my throat bashing my head against a plate glass wall telling me that I was holding onto an idol of my own making and that I had to let go or fear for my soul - either it's salvation or sanctification; God was, according to the strangler something I found bad and it was only indicative of my own hard heartedness that I couldn't subject myself to finding it good. It gets confusing knowing exactly where your fingernails are. Whether they're hanging on or trying to scratch free, whether in the struggle something is hanging onto you or you to it. Breaking point for the fingernails comes when the urge to reject something becomes stronger than the urge to hang on to that other something...
And you end up hurled through that plate glass wall where for a moment of vaccuum, nothingness and winded diaphragm you can't quite take a breath. It's not that God caught you. Both the candidates for God are sitting on the other side of the plate glass. In that moment before you breathe you acknowledge that you hate the one and the other might be an idol of your making. It's a take stock moment as you breathe. Others, I think, have said that it's the moment where you decide whether, even if you don't know that God exists, is that the one you'd rather have on your side? Or, if you rejected the one you found bad, what did you lose? Eternity with something you find evil?
So, I guess what I did as I stared at the images I saw in a glass darkly of deciding between what apparently were a screaming banshee and a beautiful idol was to trim and file my nails (look after myself) and run a neat check list over the contendors. What did I expect to see if I saw goodness? justice? love? etc.
If I divided God up into a trinity of creating father, redeeming son, sanctifying spirit what level of.. well.. intervention would I expect to see from each? Was I being unrealistic about my 'idol' and expecting something for me which might work out unjustly for someone else?
Was God the creator only low level intervention who wound the world up and sat back to let it tick to a certain rule without intervening against his 'rules' again? Could I expect if I prayed that he might tweak a few to suit me if it didn't hurt anyone else? Could I name and claim anything I damn well liked?
Was God the redeemer a high level interventionist who universally redeemed all - whether they liked it or not (relevant when you're sitting in a space where you reserve the right to reject God); or on a predestinational choice of some high interventionalism. Is he the low level redeemer who leaves the whole business to the vagaries of his only hands being our hands so that it fails if we fail to get there geographically or communicatively? Is there a middle way?
Was God the sanctifier something so high level interventionalist that , if you're not permanently 'high', then it's your own fault that you can't find the keg? Is it for medicinal purposes only when you're nearly dead? Somewhere more near the 'drink in moderation' warning so that you're in control of the vehicle you're driving and others don't get hurt?
Long winded perhaps but it is Purgatory. The long and short of it is that, for me, the act of faith isn't so much that God exists but that God is good. You just don't lose anything, whatever the threats to the country, if God is your idea of evil; irrelevant even whether he exists. And, if your fingernails are going to break anyway, go for it and do what you've been always told not to do and paint the details on your idol. Why worship the God you're given if you can build a better one? It just seems so contrary to the infinity of God that a finite human mind could create a better one so try it and judge it. You just might find God
Posts: 281 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I write this occasionally and yet I do not think I am believed.
For me existence is something that I desire an escape from, it seems a constant demand to exist, to be , to do something. If I could let go and believe there was nothing, that I could cease to exist that would be peace.
However Christianity for me does the opposite, it says in death we do not cease to be but only eternity, the being and being known that means we can either turn towards God or away. To turn towards there is a chance of light coming to sustain our being and to at last find being something that we can do, to turn away there is only the continual torment on the awareness of a failure to exist. We have to will the turning towards the light or will the turning away from the light. There is no half option of non-existence.
Christianity is not always a comforter.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I happened to notice in Wikipedia's article for Exupery's Little Prince this description of one of the characters:
quote:
The Geographer who spends all of his time making maps, but never leaves his desk to explore (even his own planet), going on the pretext that it is the job of an explorer to do so. Even if an explorer were to visit the Geographer, the Geographer is very doubting of any explorer's character and would most likely disregard the report. He doesn't trust things he hasn't seen with his own eyes, yet will not leave his desk.
Out of professional interest, the geographer asks the Prince to describe his asteroid. The Prince describes the volcanoes and the rose. 'We don't record flowers', says the geographer, because they are only temporary.
(Apologies to the hosts if this quote is too long).
It has been so long since I have read this book that I couldn't say whether it was Saint-Exupery's intention to portray atheists with this character. However, it seems an apt parody of them in their arbitrary exclusion of certain types of evidence, or aspects of human experience and thought, that might interfere with their reductionism.
I have often tried as dispassionately and objectively as possible to determine who is more open-minded and wholistic, the settled atheist or the curious agnostic who is willing to entertain the idea that God might exist. The agnostic always comes across as the more honest of the two.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
One day, when I was working as a Park Ranger, a somewhat eccentric entomologist approached us, flush with excitement: He had discovered a rare species of tussock grass in the Reserve, the sole food source for an even rarer species of butterfly.
Seeking permission to venture into normally closed areas of the Reserve, we agreed, as long as he were accompanied: I volunteered.
His enthusiasm was infectious; I had some knowledge of native grasses, but little of the particular objects of his study. I was privileged to learn from an impassioned expert, who seemed cheered to have such a receptive pupil. After some time of watching and waiting - we were rewarded when one of the butterflies flitted in and alighted on a stalk.
I have indeed been privileged; having witnessed the invitational dance of the male lyrebird; watching a killer whale erupt from the ocean at close quarters; looking after a baby seal...but there was indeed something special about this encounter, particularly in the company of one so passionate.
On my ride to work this morning I was heading toward the end of the rainbow - literally.
On does not require God to find the world a place of wonder.
On the contrary?
S-E
[ 20. June 2007, 09:53: Message edited by: Socratic-enigma ]
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
I am not even sure I am hanging on my my fingernails anymore. My last little hope was the belief that God is a good God... whavever happens. To be honest I am not even sure I believe that anymore.
Auntie Doris x
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
One does not require God to find the world a place of wonder.
On the contrary?
S-E
One also has to understand that for most Christians the incidences of wonder are few and far between and it is the already inscribed devotional theology that turns them from moments of wonder to gratitude. We talk of wonder as the essence of the experience but I wonder if gratitude is not the truer for a Christian. The change from wonder to gratitude is a profound emotional change (I presume it releases a lot of the well being endorphins into the blood stream).
However it is the mundane experience that make up most of our understanding of God, the repetition of daily practices, the noting of small kindnesses that are often over looked. Perhaps thirty second of silence after prayers are said is more regular experience interpreted as of God than the wonder.
I have a mystical bent, I therefore have experienced mystical experiences which are terrific (also in its original meaning) wonder experiences. Yet I was offered one of these in return for for all the mundane silences that make up my everyday experience of God , I would have no difficulty in turning it down.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
I am not even sure I am hanging on my my fingernails anymore. My last little hope was the belief that God is a good God... whavever happens. To be honest I am not even sure I believe that anymore.
Auntie Doris x
I know the feeling. But one thing we do know is that Jesus is a Good Lord. That's what gets me through when my faith in the Father God is shaky....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
One also has to understand that for most Christians the incidences of wonder are few and far between and it is the already inscribed devotional theology that turns them from moments of wonder to gratitude.
There is plenty of wonder to be experienced in the mundane. Approaching the spectacular or the mundane with an attitude of either theistic gratitude or non-theistic humility can make the experience transcendent. The key to the wonderful is in how we see the world around us, and ourselves in relation to it.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
There is plenty of wonder to be experienced in the mundane. Approaching the spectacular or the mundane with an attitude of either theistic gratitude or non-theistic humility can make the experience transcendent. The key to the wonderful is in how we see the world around us, and ourselves in relation to it.
Of course. But why need it be an either-or experience? For a simple example, Christians have periods of doubt; wouldn't a religious person's experience of wonder in those periods be that of "non-theistic humility"?
Maybe doubt is one of the benefit of religion, in fact! Periods of doubt alternate with periods of faith so that a person can experience wonder from both directions?
Anyway, I think that really doesn't capture how people of faith actually think and feel; at least, it doesn't resonate with me. I believe I can feel a "non-theistic humility" as well as the next guy, because I've been there - and because in some ways I'm still there. I have no real picture of how the universe works, either, or of what God actually is.
I don't know if that makes sense or not. Just wanted to say that I don't think there's such a clear-cut difference between faith and not-faith; don't agnostics simply not know? Meaning, don't they wonder sometimes about God, and in that wondering, try to picture the universe both with and without?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
I am not even sure I am hanging on my my fingernails anymore. My last little hope was the belief that God is a good God... whatever happens. To be honest I am not even sure I believe that anymore.
Auntie Doris x
Are you speaking for yourself or for others?
What is remarkable is that, by and large, people whose lives we imagine as miserable or horribly deprived don't want to die. Many of them even appear to be happier than we well-off western pointyheads are. If I suddenly found myself in their position, I would be tempted to do myself in, but they find enough value in their lives to want to go on. Mustn't we take this as their empirical judgment that God is more good than bad? This being the case, how rational is it for anyone more fortunate in his circumstances to disagree?
Now, of course, it could be that you are speaking for yourself, i.e. feeling suicidal-- but in that case, how much sense does it make to turn in your theistic model for a thoroughly secular one, when the latter will promptly suggest that your suicidal thoughts are probably the result of depression or other mental illness?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
Thanks Adeodatus. I've been hanging on by my fingernails for a while now, and this thread is a help.
Having had a fairly startling conversion experience, I came to faith on a very experiential basis. I always assumed that my intellect would catch up.
Of late, I have started to admit that I cannot construct an internally consistent, rational, logical picture of Christianity that is also consistent with the concept of a "good" God, where the word good has any normal kind of meaning. I've read some attempts at this by more intelligent and theologically-educated people, and I'm not sure they're succeeding either.
However, I can't seem to stop believing, at some base level. Some of the time, at a concious level, I'd actually really like to walk away, but my hind-brain doesn't seem to play ball.
The only thing I've heard in ages which helps related to a verse in Corinthians:
"2 Corinthians 2:14
But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ"
According to a sermon I heard a while ago, since Paul was a Roman citizen, it is likely he was referring here to the kind of "triumphs" the Romans used to have at the end of a big military campaign, where they would parade through the city of Rome, dragging the leaders of the savages they had conquered along behind them in chains. The suggestion was thus that we are not "triumphant" - we aren't the victors in the campaign - but that we are the captives in Christ's "Triumph".
That's me: a savage in chains, dragged along by this Christ from whom I cannot escape.
All the best,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:
That's me: a savage in chains, dragged along by this Christ from whom I cannot escape.
All the best,
Rachel.
You and me both, famous rachel....
(That's a great image, BTW.)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:
That's me: a savage in chains, dragged along by this Christ from whom I cannot escape.
All the best,
Rachel.
You and me both, famous rachel....
(That's a great image, BTW.)
Hmmmm.... I might change my sig to this.... I'm getting bored of being a shrivelled appendix!
R.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:
Hmmmm.... I might change my sig to this.... I'm getting bored of being a shrivelled appendix!
R.
Go for it!
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
I am not even sure I am hanging on my my fingernails anymore. My last little hope was the belief that God is a good God... whatever happens. To be honest I am not even sure I believe that anymore.
Auntie Doris x
Are you speaking for yourself or for others?
er... myself... hence the use of 'I' in the sentence.
Auntie Doris x
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
Avalaon said: quote:
Why worship the God you're given if you can build a better one? It just seems so contrary to the infinity of God that a finite human mind could create a better one so try it and judge it. You just might find God
I think I follow where this is coming from. I sometimes feel that I’m gambling my life on my picture of God – and I know well that it’s unlikely to be much like the reality, since I have no real hold-water theology in the academic sense, and know perfectly well there are logical contradictions in my picture – the gamble is that the reality is better than my patchwork picture. I'm holding on by my fingernails to the church, because I'm stubborn; holding on to God because you can't back out of a bet while the horses are still running.
Posts: 1784 | From: drought-stricken land | Registered: Jan 2007
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by bush baptist:
I think I follow where this is coming from. I sometimes feel that I’m gambling my life on my picture of God – and I know well that it’s unlikely to be much like the reality, since I have no real hold-water theology in the academic sense, and know perfectly well there are logical contradictions in my picture – the gamble is that the reality is better than my patchwork picture. I'm holding on by my fingernails to the church, because I'm stubborn; holding on to God because you can't back out of a bet while the horses are still running.
Would this bet be called Pascal's Wager?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
Well as a gay man, I have walked away from church several times in my life in disgust. For some reason God keeps pulling me back into it. The bargain I have with God right now is to stay involved but I won't recommend that any other gay people go through it (not that I would turn anyone away.)
I am quite jealous of the majority of the population who doesn't give religion a second thought. I think my life would be a lot easier if I didn't have the ongoing struggle with my faith and my love-hate (and often hate-hate) relationship with the church.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
Having just looked it up, yes, maybe -- I didn't know Pascal was Australian!
More seriously, no, I don't think so; his seems too cerebral and calculating for what I'm up to -- it's more like when I was deciding to get married -- the clerge asked me if I was certain that this man was the one I really wanted to spend my life with -- I said, no, but I just felt like taking a chance. Sort of, 'garn, give it a go, I dare ya!' said to myself. (and it's been great!)
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
Sorry about the double-post -- my last was in response to Mirrizin, asking quote:
Would this bet be called Pascal's Wager?
And it was the marriage which has been great -- Christianity is a slog, and I'm so bad at it, and at human relationships generally, that I feel I shouldn't reveal I am one, in case I put people off. But hanging on...
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
I let go, when it became very clear to me that Christians are not even slightly better then anyone else and that Christianity was not helping me to be a better, freer or wiser person to any extent at all. Not even the ones who have been Christians for decades. It rather crushed by belief in an "indwelling Holy Spirit".
So I guess I committed the unforgivable sin too. Cos I stopped believing in the existance of the Holy Spirit.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
I don't blame you Papio. And don't be that dramatic... If only that was the unforgivable sin...
Christianity is just another religion. Statistically speaking, I don't see how closer it is to the Holy Spirit than other religions or secularism... Perhaps it is. After all, Christians are not that keen on statistical analysis of their collective holiness...
Not that holy men and women did not and do not beautify creation with their presence. They are still around. But they don't get to influence anybody; they don't get to be recognized by the people as such. Sad, but true.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
I don't have a problem with God, or with our Lord Jesus Christ. The Church, on the other hand... Like ToujoursDan, it seems that my relationship with the Church is often a love-hate relationship.
The problem with the Church, of course, is that it's made up of Christians. And, as Papio notes, Christians aren't any better than anyone else. We should be. We could be. But we aren't.
God in his mercy decided to let the wheat and the weeds grow together; he decided to let the sheep and the goats graze in the same pasture. Only the field seems to be mostly weeds, and it's mostly goats grazing in the pastures. It drives me crazy.
Except when I remember that I'm probably more goat than sheep myself. So I've got to be grateful that I'm allowed in the pasture at all -- if goats weren't allowed here, where would I be? But then I get angry again, because I feel as though, if everyone else would just get their act together, it wouldn't be so hard for me. I could learn to be a sheep, if I were in a flock of sheep.
And the whole flock, it seems, persists in acting like a bunch of goats. And there are days when I don't want to be with the goats. I don't want to associate with the goats. I want to find a flock of sheep.
But sheep are awfully hard to find.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
Dear Josephine,
On behalf of all goats, may I take offense at your post. What is wrong with goats? And conversely...
What is so wonderful about sheep?
When asked why she was going that way, the sheep replied that it was simply following the others; Why didn't it go it's own way? The sheep looked confused. Why don't you think for yourself? The sheep's brain (?) suffered a meltdown.
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
And, as Papio notes, Christians aren't any better than anyone else.
True
quote:
We should be.
No, you shouldn't be... unless you're something other than human
quote:
We could be.
No, you couldn't, unless...(see above)
quote:
But we aren't.
Precisely. Humans contain a myriad of emotions/ desires which are often irrelevant, sometimes deleterious (for ourselves or others) and occasionally of value. At best, we can perhaps enhance the advantageous aspects, mitigate those less useful, and utilise our experience to actually learn (a commodity which seems to be in short supply these days). Simply supressing desire is unhealthy; and continual self-chatisement was obviously designed by (for?) masochists.
Why don't we just accept being homo sapiens.
S-E
Not really a goat; just a mere human
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
On behalf of all goats, may I take offense at your post. What is wrong with goats? And conversely...
What is so wonderful about sheep?
The allusion is, of course, to Matthew 25.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
quote:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
So, those who follow blindly and unthinkingly (which is the obvious conclusion to draw from the analogy) will be rewarded.
quote:
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
And those who have the temerity to demonstrate a little independent thinking will be punished.
Have I got it right?
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I think, in the context of the passage, goats are selfish bastards who do nothing for anyone else. Sheep are people who care for each other.
Though i agree that the constant comparison between people and sheep in the bible is sometimes troubling, given what I've come to understand about sheep...
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Christians aren't any better than anyone else. We should be. We could be. But we aren't.
Why should Christians be any better than anyone else?
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
Sheep are people who care for each other.
Yes, I have often witnessed sheep bandaging another's wounds; taking food to those unable to obtain it for themselves; setting up funds for less fortunate sheep... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Perhaps the most apt use of the analogy was in the film: 'The Magnificent Seven', when the bandit-chief proclaimed:
quote:
"If God did not want them fleeced: He wouldn't have made them sheep!"
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Just going on the language that you didn't mention in your quote: quote:
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
So...what does this passage have to do with literal sheep or goats?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
So...what does this passage have to do with literal sheep or goats?
Precisely: In that sense it is a poor analogy, unless...
It is drawing a distinction between those who meekly follow blindly and unquestioningly ( which is the strongest characteristic of sheep) as opposed to those who demonstrate a little independence of spirit (the characteristic of goats - at least as opposed to sheep)
Else: Why use that analogy at all?
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Christians aren't any better than anyone else. We should be. We could be. But we aren't.
Why should Christians be any better than anyone else?
I didn't become a Christian because I wanted to be better than anyone else, I became a Christian because I realised that I needed to be better than what I was. The question I often ask myself is 'How can anyone's output be anything other than equal or less than their input?' because I just don't buy this self-manufactured self-progression nonsense. For this reason I think there is a sense in which we should let go; let go of trying and listen to the voice of redemption.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Is it better to have so much "independence of spirit" that you do nothing but butt heads with everyone around you, or to engage in a little cooperation?
Just to pit one extreme against another... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
So, you would prefer no independence of spirit? - which is what the analogy seems to infer.
mirrizin
A simple question:
Why use that analogy at all?
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
On the margins, I prefer cooperation over head-butting.
That's not the same as destroying independence of spirit, just as allowing a little independent spirit isn't the same as destroying our collective humanity. There is no need for this dichotomy, IMO.
If you want to pit extremes against each other, I'd rather live in commune than solo it in a wilderness.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Zoey
Broken idealist
# 11152
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Posted
Maybe somebody who's more of a Biblical scholar than me can comment on whether this has any validity at all or not ...
... but I think I once heard a theory that in 1st century Palestine sheep and goats would have been much harder to tell apart (sheep's wool left to grow longer, both sheep and goats wandering around getting very dusty and bedraggled, particular breeds in the area at the time, etc) and that that has some bearing on the story.
I'd be extremely cautious about reading modern connotations of 'sheep-like' behaviour into Biblical descriptions of people as sheep. Language and perceptions change. It's not at all obvious to me that a 1st century resident of Palestine would recognise the same connotations as a modern English-speaker does in a metaphor describing people as sheep.
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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.
Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Besides, aren't goats also herd animals?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I'd be extremely cautious about reading modern connotations of 'sheep-like' behaviour into Biblical descriptions of people as sheep. Language and perceptions change. It's not at all obvious to me that a 1st century resident of Palestine would recognise the same connotations as a modern English-speaker does in a metaphor describing people as sheep.
Exactly. If you want to know what our Lord meant by sheep and goats in this parable, it's easy to figure it out -- just read the parable. It's hard to get much plainer.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
What if he's not?
Oh, well. I've been wrong before. The worst case is I die having tried to be a good, integrated person for the wrong reasons, and missed sleeping in on a majority of my life's Sundays.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I'd be extremely cautious about reading modern connotations of 'sheep-like' behaviour into Biblical descriptions of people as sheep.
On the contrary MST, from the contexts of its (as mirrizin has noted) frequent usage, the animals' behaviour and characteristics are virtually unchanged, else why draw the comparison between sheep and goats at all
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
Besides, aren't goats also herd animals?
I never said they weren't!
quote:
If you want to pit extremes against each other, I'd rather live in commune than solo it in a wilderness.
Umm, that was you
Apparently goats are able to live in a herd whils't maintaining some independence of spirit (I can't say I know a lot about goats...or sheep come to that).
To be honest, if some deity said to me: "You can be a sheep or a goat"...
Personally, I'm a human
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
Well, hey, why don't we go the whole hog in mixing our metaphors and say that the Shepherd is a Lion. Poor sheep! But I suppose the goats wouldn't fare much better either. And what about mules, don't they get a mention?
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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