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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: When you're hanging on by your fingernails....
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
This really should go on. I can't contribute anything useful at the moment but I'm getting one helluva lot from pages 1-3.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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hild
Shipmate
# 6042
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Posted
I'm definitely very fingertippish at the moment. And have been for some time now.
I don't want to go into the whys and wherefores, but it's reassuring in a way to know there are so many others in similar situations.
I can't not believe at all; I can't continue believing as I used to. I have a wonderful husband who still believes very strongly, and I can very much sympathise with those who hang on because they don't want to hurt or worry those they love. It becomes very hard to talk with them about faith in this situation.
To those who are getting into the inevitable, repetitive arguments: yes, we have heard these ideas before. But feel free to continue posting, and I shall feel free to skim your posts.
To those who are, like me, not sure where to go from here, or how, or if it's possible to let go (or find a way of hanging on a little longer): thank you for your company. Please let us know how you get on. I shall try to do the same.
Hild.
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still journeying
Posts: 79 | From: Durham | Registered: May 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
Laura,
When next you despatch one of your eunuchs, can you at least ensure that they have the good grace to actually read the thread before passing comment(or was that wind).
S-E
I'm sure a host will be happy to point out that calling another poster names is a violation of the third commandment. While I appreciate the PM apology, I think it's JimmyB you owe one to. You can dispute his premises here without calling him names.
Anyway, I haven't got any minions that I'm aware of.
Regarding Occam's or Ockham's razor, which everyone loves to toss around, as a logical maxim it has the risk of being too reductive. Was it Einstein who said that explanations should be as simple as possible, but no simpler? The problem with Occam's razor is the assumption behind it, which was enunciated by others before Occam as well (like Aquinas) Why is the simpler theory more likely to be true? There is a fairly complex philosophical history behind that principle.
But let's take one example of a situation in which Occam's razor might lead one the wrong way: in medicine, application of Occam's razor might drive the diagnostician to pick a rare disease that covers all of a patient's set of symptoms, yet as Hickam's dictum states, "patents can have as many diseases as they damned well please". In medicine, it's generally far more likely that a patient with a constellation of symptoms has a combination of common conditions rather than one rare one.
Anyway, the point is, Occam's razor might be a useful assist, but it isn't logically dispositive. And remember that many of us are not making logically comparable claims about the same phenomenon, which is the circumstance in which Occam's razor is useful.
To pare down the heart of the disagreement between Atheism and Faith of some sort into two theories which can be compared is difficult. I suppose the central positions would be:
1) there is a God or gods who do something, (because there are many teachings about gods) and
2) there is no God of any sort.
How do we apply Occam's razor to this? Both are equally unprovable assertions with rich philosophical histories. You can only get to Occam's razor if you inject other assumptions to the statements above - a false dichotomy like arguing that accepting the existence of God means you have to reject modern science. You could, however, go within a particular tradition and select the Resurrection and have an argument about that, and of course, Christians themselves disagree about what happened that day.
Also, the question of Bad Things Christians Do is entirely logically irrelevant to whether there is truth in its teachings. So all that other stuff is just irrelevant. Like your assertion that religion is bad because there are women in South Dakota who can't get an abortion. In a democracy, the availability of abortion is dependent upon the law and the willingness of health care providers to provide the service in that place. It may be religious conviction which compels citizens to oppose abortion legally, just as it was religious conviction that compelled many opponents of American chattel slavery and also the civil rights movement of the 1960s and 70s. That's the way democracy works. It is also illegal for public schools to teach creationism, at least in the US, but because we don't have thought police, parents can teach their children stupid things if they want to.
Anyway, that's a really long post.
I'm off to bake cookies. I have a theory about whether it's better to use brown or white sugar or a combination of both that I have to test empirically.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Oh, and a general note to our latest atheist shipmate:
I think you'll find that some of the irritation at some of the cheaper shots atheists make on this board is that we do this quite a bit. We have a number of atheist members and about every quarter we seem to pick up an evangelical atheist who leaps aboard, to show us all with brilliance the wrongness of faith, especially Christianity. Then one of two things happens: i) they get angry when they to win converts and flame out and either stomp away or sometimes behave in such a way as to get banned; ii) they get sucked in by our pleasant community and general intelligence and reasonableness and find themselves staying in spite of themselves or quietly drifting off. Guess which one is better? You can apply Occam's razor if you wish.
Because nobody has ever converted anyone to atheism here. It has happened to some over time as a natural result of the sort of constant examination we do. And - warning, it's happened the other way, too. But you're not really asking new questions -- reasonable people ask themselves these questions all the time. It's like smoking - you think smokers don't know it's bad for them? Christians have mostly thought about many of the objections to faith.
That's not to say you shouldn't feel free to knock yourself out asking them. I want you to understand some of the irritation and/or even hostility you may occasionally find.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
What Laura said.
That's my experience too. I don't get annoyed when atheists ask questions. I get annoyed when they ask the same questions, over and over again, as if I didn't hear them correctly the first time, or expect that somehow I'm going to be knocked flat by some profound philosophical argument involving teapots orbiting Mars (just for one example).
Also, the imputation that Christians are generally misogynist, racist, homophobic, oppressive, etc. bothers me since my church tends to make very, very strong stands against all of the above. I know we're not necessarily a majority, but I don't think that makes our witness invalid or somehow makes us "the exception that proves the rule."
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
Laura,
When next you despatch one of your eunuchs, can you at least ensure that they have the good grace to actually read the thread before passing comment(or was that wind).
S-E
Apart from being a cheap shot,Socratic-enigma that is a personal attack on two posters and thus a breach of Commandment 3.
Josephine, referring to another another poster's "ignorance and prejudice" is acceptable only in Hell - not in Purgatory.
Generally - this is a worthy thread and I don't want to see it derailed further by comments about the posting styles of atheists as if they were a uniform group with annoying debating habits.
We like strong debate here. We encourage it. Just leave any personal attacks or getting overly personal to Hell.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
[typo]
[ 02. July 2007, 03:03: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
As a dedicated fence sitter, the many apologetics I have read for both atheism and christianity have always sent me running rapidly in the opposite direction. When one doesn't have a definite leaning for or against, they simply appear as completely circular arguments, preaching to the choir, only convincing if you already are inclined to believe one way or the other.
So if none of the arguments always have a contrary effect on me, fence-sitter for many decades, why should they convert someone who actually firmly believes one side or the other of the debate?
I think people with genuine beliefs have those beliefs somewhere deep in their core personality from an early age. With deepest apologies to any shipmates who had conversion experiences, I think that these are simply manifestations of a deep-seated need to be a True Believer in something.
As far as the OP
quote:
When you're hanging on by your fingernails... to the whole religion thing (assuming you ever are in such a position), what's the one thing that stops you letting go?
Or, to put it another way - on those days* when the whole of Christianity, from start to finish, seems just one long line of platitudinous crap, what's the one thing that stops you walking away from it all?
my advice would be to let go. That doesn't mean that you totally give up on your faith, merely that you accept that you only have a fingernail faith. Stop worrying about Being a Christian, and start thinking about what you actually believe and how God is (or isn't) working in your life.
It won't be easy or comfortable, but my experience is that God will give you what you need if you are willing to listen. In my case, I'm intellectually (as an adult) Buddhist/Hindu, but totally steeped from childhood with an odd combination of Baha'i teachings (my Dad), UU (my Mom), Roman Catholicism and Baptist (my early environment).
Despite roughly twenty years of trying to become a practicing Buddhist, my musical inclinations had me firmly settled into the RCC. Another ten years or so and I gave up and gave in. I still don't consider myself a Christian (don't tell my priest or the Pope!) and I fervently wish that I could be part of a nice high-church Anglo-Catholic tat enclave, but...
I have found people at both my RCC and Baptist churches who have provided what I need (both personally and as part of my spiritual journey) and I suspect and hope that I have been able to help others in turn.
I don't "believe" all the credal stuff, but I do believe that I am in a place that I am supposed to be and have learned and will learn what I need to know. At this point, I trust that God will go on patiently nagging me, and that I will continue to be my obstinate self and thus it will take way more time and effort than it perhaps should.
It is difficult on the practical personal level. I'm the opposite of Scot; my involvement with the Church and with God creates a barrier, a gulf, with my atheistic/agnostic spouse and children. It takes up a lot of my life and thoughts, and they really aren't interested, so I can't talk about it with them.
The bottom line is that we can only be who we are. I believe that we are all manifestations of God and thus whatever we happen to be living out is God experiencing the infinite variety of existence through our (and all of creation's) particular existence. On the other hand, God may be simply a figment of human imagination. In which case, we can only be who we are. So the bottom line is the same.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
One piece of advice a friend gave another friend is this. If you think there might be a God, what is the nature of this maybe-God? Try living as you would if this maybe-God existed and see what happens.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
I though lawyers were supposed to use 200 words where one would do?
Yeah, that's a single sentence that sums up what my long-winded post was trying to say.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Josephine, referring to another another poster's "ignorance and prejudice" is acceptable only in Hell - not in Purgatory.
You're right. I should have been careful to describe the argument and not the one making the argument. My apologies.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hard to pray that prayer when you're close to concluding that the darkness may be all there is, and the Light you thought you have seen an illusion.
But may not the 'darkness' be an illusion as well?
The darkness is an illusion. A good friend of mine put it this way. "For almost 10 months I never saw a sunrise or a sunset. Of course they were happening, but I never saw them." She was talking about the effects of severe depression, not loss of, or lack of, faith. It coloured (perhaps uncoloured would be more accurate) her perception. The depression was certainly very real.
The language of the third collect in Evensong (lighten our darkness) simply draws parallels between the coming natural darkness (and its perceived perils) and any present darkness (psychological, spiritual, whatever) within us and its perceived perils. The darkness which creates irrational fears, distorts perspective, may indeed be a normal part of life experiences, and indeed can be learned from. But it is surely not a bad thing to want be free of that distortion so that we can see clearly again? In the praying, it is put into its proportionate place - something which we are enduring, not enjoying.
I know what you are saying; you misunderstood what I was saying.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
As a dedicated fence sitter, the many apologetics I have read for both atheism and christianity have always sent me running rapidly in the opposite direction. When one doesn't have a definite leaning for or against, they simply appear as completely circular arguments, preaching to the choir, only convincing if you already are inclined to believe one way or the other.
Of course you're right: there is no knock-down, killer argument for or against theistic belief. So of course no apologetic argument is going to `convert' a person of strong views, one way or the other.
But I think what one can do, and should do, is to oppose bad arguments that form an obstacle to belief (or non-belief, if that's the way you're arguing). I don't really know why, but it bothers me when people believe or disbelieve on the basis of stupid and unworthy arguments.
Many of the reasons I hear people give for why they are not believers seem to be absolutely absurd. As Laura said, the view that to be a believer is to reject science is such an absurd reason. There are plenty of others. Of course there are absurd reasons for belief as well as non-belief ( any argument based on anything the Bible says, for example ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ), and I oppose those too.
You can only convert people (one way or the other) by walking the walk. But, at the same time, I think we have a duty to help people make an informed choice of belief.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
Duo Seraphim
I apologise for my behaviour and the breach.
I will endeavour to maintain all the commandments in future; behave with appropriate decorum; and grant to both the Hosts and Admins,and my fellow shipmates, the respect they deserve.
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
One piece of advice a friend gave another friend is this. If you think there might be a God, what is the nature of this maybe-God? Try living as you would if this maybe-God existed and see what happens.
I think this really hits the nail on the head.
The impulse to faith itself, as jlg says, might be a sort of hard-wired thing. Although I've had one of those conversion experiences, it really didn't take me very far - just over the top of the next hill to Christianity instead of a diffuse sort of A.A. "Higher Power" thing. Both are good approaches, for me; I do tend to believe that sobriety depends on the maintenance of my "spiritual condition," just as the founders of A.A. found for themselves and wrote about.
Of course, we now suspect that this has a lot to do with neurotransmitters and serotonin-uptake, etc. - but A.A. was founded in 1935, long before the drugs came along. Anyway, if faith in a Higher Power, and the way of life that the A.A. program offers, can accomplish the same thing - almost - as SSRI's (and addicts are and were a really hard case, BTW), there's something to be said for it, don't you think? I actually think we're only seeing the tip of the possible iceberg here; after all, yoga is an outgrowth of religion, right? So is meditation. Perhaps some of the disciplines within Christian mysticism will eventually develop along these lines, too.
Anyway, what's interesting about Christianity - and about A.A., and I'm sure about other faiths, too, I don't know - is what happens after that "conversion" experience. And Laura's pointing to a really fascinating part of the experience in the intellectual realm: what, actually, does it mean to posit a God? What sorts of questions does this address, and what sorts of problems present themselves?
And then you're off and running in a hundred different directions - as, indeed, the Western world did go running for a couple thousand years: religion inspired two millennia of art, literature, music, philosophy, ritual, and all the other stuff we've talked about here. Same thing happened within the cultures of the other faiths. Sometimes I wonder if the muse is dead now, or just sleeping.
Anyway, the tentacles of faith reach into all areas of human life; again, that's because it was all things to all people in earlier times. Science has done great things and its power is such that it's trampling wildly over everything else - but ultimately I just don't think it's going to fulfill all human needs, sorry. So faith ain't going anyplace.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
That's very interesting, I'd forgotten that A.A. essentially requires that you "posit" a God of some sort, and that is a key piece of its effectiveness (and also why some people object to it, even though it is plainly not requiring you accept a Judeo-Christian God)
And then that reminded me of the story of Bill W's conversion, which is a classic of the 'revivalist' genre.
He was at rock, rock bottom and still digging, and then:
quote:
All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that a wind not of air but spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, 'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are right. Things are all right with God and His world.'"
There are a lot of ways of explaining this sort of thing, both physical and psychological. But there is no denying the power of the conversion experience. And what it did for Bill W, to take one example, who went out and developed a system of dealing with addiction that was the last hope for a lot of desperate people, and has undoubtedly saved many lives.
[ 02. July 2007, 13:52: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
That's very interesting, I'd forgotten that A.A. essentially requires that you "posit" a God of some sort, and that is a key piece of its effectiveness (and also why some people object to it, even though it is plainly not requiring you accept a Judeo-Christian God)
Bill Wilson was a nut after that for awhile, because he thought that everybody had to have that sort of experience in order to recover. As bad as any nutcase preacher anybody's ever heard, he went around dragging alcoholics off the streets and trying to sober them up at home. His poor wife had to put out the (literal) fires a lot of the time, and one guy chased Bill around his own house with a hatchet.
Finally they settled on the "Power greater than myself" thing - it didn't have to be the white light, or as you say, the Judeo-Christian God. For me at first, it was simply the "force that through the green fuse drives the flower" - the power of nature.
A.A. is a simple thing - a sort of non-denominational Enlightenment path or something - and it actually has a lot going for it. You meet people who are adepts - that is, who've lived in the process for a lot longer - and they teach you this simple idea about living in the moment, and how to do that, and etc. Frankly, given the weirdness of the Church, sometimes I wish I'd simply have stayed with that path - but after awhile, you start to seek more anyway. A.A. is really meant for, and focussed on, the newcomer - which is how it should be - and people who've been around for awhile tend to turn to other places for deeper experiences.
Maybe after Christianity stops being part of the State and Culture for a few hundred years, it will develop in a different way. Monastics already live that kind of life, actually; that's probably why I like Anglicanism, too, since it has essentially, with the Daily Office, brought daily monastic practice into the Christian faith. That's where I think the whole thing is going, in fact.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
TM:
There are many saints who "walked the enlightenment path" - found the church too complicated and retreated. It might be spiritually productive for you or anyone who is drawn to that path to read about the lives of assorted contemplatives and what they have made of Christianity. My sense is that there's a really broad scope within the Church corporate for choosing which practices appeal to a given believer. Which is one of its strengths. There are many gifts, but one Spirit - we can't all be tat queens. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 02. July 2007, 14:36: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
TM:
There are many saints who "walked the enlightenment path" - found the church too complicated and retreated. It might be spiritually productive for you or anyone who is drawn to that path to read about the lives of assorted contemplatives and what they have made of Christianity. My sense is that there's a really broad scope within the Church corporate for choosing which practices appeal to a given believer. Which is one of its strengths. There are many gifts, but one Spirit - we can't all be tat queens.
Well actually, monastics are tat queens, too. That's the beauty part!
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Bill Wilson was a nut after that for awhile, because he thought that everybody had to have that sort of experience in order to recover. As bad as any nutcase preacher anybody's ever heard, he went around dragging alcoholics off the streets and trying to sober them up at home. His poor wife had to put out the (literal) fires a lot of the time, and one guy chased Bill around his own house with a hatchet.
Finally they settled on the "Power greater than myself" thing - it didn't have to be the white light, or as you say, the Judeo-Christian God. For me at first, it was simply the "force that through the green fuse drives the flower" - the power of nature.
Yes, I remember that, too. Though I do think crazy visionaries should get a pass for their occasional bouts of insanity. I also remember reading somewhere that apparently, on his death bed, Bill W decided he wanted a drink and it was extremely difficult to keep him from it. That really drove home to me the power of alcoholic addiction. Even after all those years. Wow. Of course, if I was dying, I'd want a drink, too, so who can blame him?
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Yes, I remember that, too. Though I do think crazy visionaries should get a pass for their occasional bouts of insanity. I also remember reading somewhere that apparently, on his death bed, Bill W decided he wanted a drink and it was extremely difficult to keep him from it. That really drove home to me the power of alcoholic addiction. Even after all those years. Wow. Of course, if I was dying, I'd want a drink, too, so who can blame him?
I have a crazy theory that there really is a "tribe" of people who are extra-ordinarily attuned to the spiritual life - i.e., the "priest" class. And it wouldn't suprise me in the least if they make up about 1/12th of the population, either! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
So the religious nuts can do the exploring and messing around with theology and faith practice, and report back to the rest of us what they find. And yes, Bill Wilson was definitely one of those.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
I'm still trying to picture monastics -- a monk, a cloistered nun, an anchoress! -- as a "tat queen".
Maybe my imagination ain't good enough.
Or I don't know enough Tat Queens.
[ 02. July 2007, 23:37: Message edited by: Janine ]
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
I got almost congratulated the other day for having held on. I realised that it really shouldn't suprise anyone that I haven't let go. if I let go I would lose everything. I can't work anymore, and I have no children. Everything I do revolves around either my husband or the church. Letting go would throw such a huge wedge between me and my husband, and I would lose everything else. So I can't let go, even though I don't know anything I thought I knew about God. I just can't let go.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Izzybee
Shipmate
# 10931
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Posted
Jenn R, that really sucks.
As far as fingernails go, I'm pretty much deciding to let go.
I have no problem with God, but I can't take the majority of Christians anymore. I can't self identify as something that I find really downright nasty about 80% of the time - Christianity and quite a few of it's adherants. The Ship is one of the only things that keeps me trying, really - there are some great people here that remind me that all of Christendom are not assholes.
So maybe thats the next question - what do you do once you've finally let go?
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Hate filled bitch musings...
Posts: 1336 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Jan 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Stay on the ship and challenge us with your developing ideas?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Because when I did despair, and I did let go of that last grasp with my fingernail, God was there. God was there in the kindness of my neighbors, of the birds at the feeder and the blooming of spring. God was there in the money that always appeared right when I needed it. God was there in the person who just felt they should call right at the moment I was ready to give it all up.
And when I attended a Meeting. Then two. And walked away feeling like I had received a message. a kindness. a loving "hug" through the silence.
I sort of relate to that, except it's the other way around. I let go of God and religion and found beauty in nature, hope in the kindness of strangers, love in my family, peace in the silence. Those worthwhile things, and so many more, are there, are real, are what makes each new day worth living. Once I let go, I realized that all of the good in the world didn't go away.
I let go. And all the good didn't go away. A lot of the crap did though
So, now, what? I am at the place where I know God is with me. I know he's for me and not against me. I don't feel the same way at all about the church. I hope to find a church community again that feels like home. I would like to walk out this walk in community. But I also know He remains with me even when that community isn't there.
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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
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