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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Are atheists a persecuted group?
TubaMirum
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Anyway, I'm still atheist at times, myself; faith is not constant. Would I then be persecuted off and on, I wonder?

The problem, dogwonderer, is that many of this have indeed been in your place, and we don't relate to "persecution." What do you say to us, other than that we're "in denial" - which we obviously aren't, at least in our own experience?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Hmm. Like I said: all this denial is very revealing, isn't it?

That's what the man with the tin-foil hat says about people who don't share his delusion. Denial reveals nothing.

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mousethief

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Oh, and to further Tuba Mirum's point, the worst persecution I received when I was an atheist was to be asked (by my boy scout troopmaster or whatever they're called (it's been a long time)), "How can you not believe in God?"

Took me agonizing seconds to get over the trauma.

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
The problem is that you haven't given anybody any evidence of persecution. So, is there any?

TubaMirum, I don't know if there is any evidence of persecution of atheists or not, though it seems reasonable (knowing what humans are like) that atheists could be persecuted. But I think there's more here than this single 'problem'.

I do have evidence that at least one atheist may be disadvantaged by their faith position (me), and it feels like persecution when this is flatly denied in principle by people who are in no position to do so. It feels like bigotry. It feels like hypocrisy too.

All this denial smells funny. So that's another problem, isn't it?

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Oh, and to further Tuba Mirum's point, the worst persecution I received when I was an atheist was to be asked (by my boy scout troopmaster or whatever they're called (it's been a long time)), "How can you not believe in God?"

Took me agonizing seconds to get over the trauma.

On that topic, in today's scouts, you would get booted.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/index.html

Even an agnostic can't become a good enough citizen according to the BSA - see Welsh vs. BSA.
http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Hmm. Like I said: all this denial is very revealing, isn't it?

That's what the man with the tin-foil hat says about people who don't share his delusion. Denial reveals nothing.
I quite agree. But you need balls of steel to be so self-assured to believe that the person who claims to feel persecuted must in fact be deluded. It's a very brave position. Or a persecutory one.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
TubaMirum, I don't know if there is any evidence of persecution of atheists or not, though it seems reasonable (knowing what humans are like) that atheists could be persecuted. But I think there's more here than this single 'problem'.

I do have evidence that at least one atheist may be disadvantaged by their faith position (me), and it feels like persecution when this is flatly denied in principle by people who are in no position to do so. It feels like bigotry. It feels like hypocrisy too.

All this denial smells funny. So that's another problem, isn't it?

But we are in a position to do so; many of us have been atheists.

Granted that we've not been you in particular. Is that why you claim this is hypocrisy? Because I'm afraid there's no cure for that, since we can only be ourselves, with our own experiences. And we're not claiming that you can feel persecuted, either; we're only asking for some evidence for the argument the opening post addresses.

[ 30. July 2007, 20:27: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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TubaMirum
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That should read, "And we're not claiming that you can't feel persecuted, either; we're only asking for some evidence for the argument the opening post addresses."
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Oh, and to further Tuba Mirum's point, the worst persecution I received when I was an atheist was to be asked (by my boy scout troopmaster or whatever they're called (it's been a long time)), "How can you not believe in God?"

Took me agonizing seconds to get over the trauma.

On that topic, in today's scouts, you would get booted.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/index.html

Even an agnostic can't become a good enough citizen according to the BSA - see Welsh vs. BSA.
http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

I know. It's fucked up. I believe they flush out gays too. Although if I were a gay teenager I certainly wouldn't want to go camping with a bunch of homophobic adolescents. But that doesn't make kicking them out right of course.

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mousethief

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Yes there's feeling persecuted and there's being persecuted. You can say "I feel persecuted" and I cant' argue. But if you say "I was persecuted, here's what they did..." and what you describe doesn't match what as far as I know "persecution" means, then I may very well say so. Which isn't denial just debate, which is what Purg is for, I've been told.

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
And we're not claiming that you can't feel persecuted, either; we're only asking for some evidence for the argument the opening post addresses.

I'm sure I can't help you- I've told you honestly that I have indeed felt disadvantaged. I cannot answer for any other atheists- including you. But I can answer for myself.

I guess it's up to you what to make of my claim. I can't stop you from denying it, and I'm becoming disinclined to continue my attempts to bring this into the debate.

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این نیز بگذرد

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
I'm sure I can't help you- I've told you honestly that I have indeed felt disadvantaged. I cannot answer for any other atheists- including you. But I can answer for myself.

I guess it's up to you what to make of my claim. I can't stop you from denying it, and I'm becoming disinclined to continue my attempts to bring this into the debate.

Again: I've never denied that you feel persecuted; before this the only thing I've said to you was that I could identify with the closet.

But I can identify with you here again: I'm getting tired of saying the same things again and again, too. So perhaps I'll stop as well.

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Wulfstan
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DW said:
quote:
Hmm. Like I said: all this denial is very revealing, isn't it?
Is it? Of what? Please try and formulate an argument. Just once.
quote:
I quite agree. But you need balls of steel to be so self-assured to believe that the person who claims to feel persecuted must in fact be deluded. It's a very brave position. Or a persecutory one.
But this is just more of the same circular logic isn't it. You say you are persecuted. If we disagree, we're persecuters. This is drivel and a simple misrepresentation of the English language. IF you have been discriminated against on the grounds you claim, then one instance is not persecution. It would be abuse of position/unprofessional conduct/bullying.
You've even admitted previously that persecution is too extreme a word, but then pressed on with assertions and circular logic as if this proves anything except your own lack of a sensible argument.
To even begin to compare yourself with the those in the American Civil Rights movement of the 50s, or those persecuted by McCarthy, let alone those left to rot in Gulags is obscene. If you haven't the wit or subtlety appreciate this then I pity you. You're not alone of course, there have been Christians on these boards who've try to play the martyrdom card, or suggest, with nauseous relish that they may be persecuted in the future, as if that somehow embues them with extra virtue or credibility. It's a cheap political ploy whoever does it though, and shows the same sickening, sectarian characteristics on both sides.
quote:
I can't stop you from denying it, and I'm becoming disinclined to continue my attempts to bring this into the debate.

Hmmmm. Your disinclination to continue debating is very revealing isn't it...
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Mad Geo

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For those of you (not) keeping score so far we have:

Christians (presumptive) with regards to the athiest's/nontheist's arguments:

"Intemperate", "Silly", "Ludicrously vague and silly", "bit precious", "kind of sick", "tin-foil hat...share his delusion", "you're going to have to actually make a coherent argument" "Please try and formulate an argument".

Your words speak volumes.


[edited to add the latest]

[ 30. July 2007, 20:54: Message edited by: Mad Geo ]

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TubaMirum
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(One more thing, including a correction: I should have written above that "Again: I've never denied that you feel disadvantaged...."

But again, that wasn't the statement in the OP, and many of us have said the same thing: that "persecution" is too strong a word. If "disadvantaged" had been used in various posts here, I think many fewer people would have objected.

But you're right that we're just going over the same territory again, so it's probably best to just move on at this point.)

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
For those of you (not) keeping score so far we have:

Christians (presumptive) with regards to the athiest's/nontheist's arguments:

"Intemperate", "Silly", "Ludicrously vague and silly", "bit precious", "kind of sick", "tin-foil hat...share his delusion", "you're going to have to actually make a coherent argument" "Please try and formulate an argument".

Your words speak volumes.


[edited to add the latest]

So that's pretty much it, then, eh? You guys are just going to continue to say how "revealing" and "hypocritical" our words are? Rather than, you know, actually having to come up with something that demonstrates your point?

Well, that seems....dull.

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by Wulfstan:
Hmmmm. Your disinclination to continue debating is very revealing isn't it...

Yes; it reveals that you are Supremely Right.

I haven't the heart.

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Mad Geo

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Actually I felt I have presented adequate argument here (or at minimum, quantity of argument) enough for anyone to see I gave it a go. As did DW. I have no need to further argue to meet your arbitrarily established criteria. I get that you want somebody dead/beaten/damaged in order to use the term "persecuted".

I think IMHO the two most relevant points to date on this thread are that

1) Someone will have to die to impress you (collectively) of the problem, and

2) Having this discussion tends to result in the atheists/nontheists being, how shall we say, challenged rhetorically in interesting ways. Not that it doesn't happen elsewhere, mind you, it's just SO ironic.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:

1) Someone will have to die to impress you (collectively) of the problem, and

IOW, when we doubt that "persecution" is happening because of the obvious lack of evidence - no one has died and people are not being jailed - you understand that to mean not that we're correct - since no one has died and people are not being jailed or otherwise persecuted - but that we're heartless and bloodthirsty instead.

Interesting. And, I notice, a nicely-set no-win rhetorical trap.

And, Q.E.D.

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Mad Geo

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Speaking of tinfoil, where on earth did I say, or even imply, that you were "heartless and bloodthirsty". I am merely stating the obvious.
If you demand that persecution requires death/beatings/violence, then someone has to die/get beaten to meet that criteria.

I personally think that intimidating behavior such as harrassment, firings, etc. is nasty enough behaviors to qualify. I'd rather not have it get to beatings. Call me silly. Oh wait! I already was, nevermind.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I personally think that intimidating behavior such as harrassment, firings, etc. is nasty enough behaviors to qualify. I'd rather not have it get to beatings. Call me silly. Oh wait! I already was, nevermind.

Yes, harrassment and firing would be enough to qualify - except that I haven't seen it demonstrated that that's going on on any sort of widespread basis. It sure as hell isn't going on where I live; religious people are viewed with more suspicion around here.

(Granted, I don't really read your posts much anymore, so perhaps you've given some sort of evidence of this. If so, please point it out.)

[ 30. July 2007, 21:58: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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Mad Geo

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I stood by and listened as my (then) boss said the following "If I found out an employee was an atheist, I would fire them". This was in greater Los Angeles, California. Three.5 years ago. Mid-morning.

I know that probably doesn't mean anything to you. So be it. I could care less if actual first hand experience counts to you or not.

This is the same guy that I am fairly confident found a way to "let go" of actual and suspected gay employees of his. The gay firings were before my time, and I didn't actually hear him say that, but I heard enough of him later to know that is almost certainly what happened. I have no doubt he would fire atheists (still will).

These calls for proof of (whatever) persecution assumes that 1) the media would catch it or even care, and 2) that the bastards such as my ex-boss get caught, at minimum. I do not grant you any of that, as I have first hand experience that says otherwise.

You can call me a liar (I wouldn't recommend it) but clearly DW and I have had some experiences that make us dubious of the protections that society usually affords (most) minorities.

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Beautiful Dreamer
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Actually, I am sorry some of you feel like you are at a disadvantage for being an atheist. I can only speak for my own experience, and I was never treated badly, or subjected to any worse treatment than minor irritation, when I was an atheist. The worst I had to deal with was having someone preach at me and tell me I was going to hell. Which meant nothing to me, since at the time I did not believe there was a hell.

And I would say that firings and harassment fall under the guise of persecution, but I simply haven't seen it. My atheist friends have not had anywhere near the problems you are making it out that they would have. The subject simply is not discussed. If anything, I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around some of them for fear that I will offend them with my religion (and I do not proseltyze, I am talking about worrying I will offend them if I mention church at all). But, your mileage may vary. Apparently it does. No one is denying that you feel disadvantaged, or saying you should. The most I see anyone saying is that they simply do not see it. But then I don't know what it is like to be an adult atheist, so what do I know?

And I still think you guys need to correct other atheists when they talk down to us like we are stupid because we have a faith. I have no problem standing up for myself, but not everyone is as bold as I am. And I am usually pretty low-key in person.

[ 30. July 2007, 22:16: Message edited by: Beautiful_Dreamer ]

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I stood by and listened as my (then) boss said the following "If I found out an employee was an atheist, I would fire them". This was in greater Los Angeles, California. Three.5 years ago. Mid-morning.

Yes, and I'm sure there are many people who say the very same things about gay people, too - and we don't have any protections, either.

The difference is that I wouldn't say that gay people are persecuted on any sort of widespread basis in the U.S. today, or that it was 1967 again because of an incident like this.

One personal anecdote - which isn't even about a firing, but about talking about a hypothetical firing - does not imply persecution. And it doesn't mean it's 1967, either. Don't be so shocked that people find your rhetoric overheated; it is, if this is all you've got.

[ 30. July 2007, 22:36: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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Mad Geo

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I am not shocked at anything various people assert here, especially about anything I said or (more likely) didn't say. And heated? [Killing me] Pullease. I've seen fluffy bunnies that get upset over "damn".
I mean I just saw someone assert that gays aren't persecuted, when they aren't allowed to marry in most states, and occasionally one or two have to die occasionally. Nothing serious.

Go figure.

I see.
You must be right.

Nah, nothing going on there.
Nope.

Don't ask. Don't tell.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I mean I just saw someone assert that gays aren't persecuted, when they aren't allowed to marry in most states, and occasionally one or two have to die occasionally. Nothing serious.

Go figure.

I see.
You must be right.

Nah, nothing going on there.
Nope.

Don't ask. Don't tell.

Exactly, Geo. Those are gay people who can't marry, and who are getting bashed, not atheists. Thanks for making it so clear how full of it you are.

Talking of fluffy bunnies....

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TubaMirum
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(You obviously wouldn't know "persecution" if you fell over it, my dear.

And believe me: it ain't 1967. You wouldn't know anything about that, either.)

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Mad Geo

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Well, that was fun. Anyone got a glass of Histrionic tonic?

quote:
Originally posted by Beautiful_Dreamer:
And I still think you guys need to correct other atheists when they talk down to us like we are stupid because we have a faith. I have no problem standing up for myself, but not everyone is as bold as I am. And I am usually pretty low-key in person.

So I was thinking about this on the drive home. Are there any groups that you might consider stupid for various reasons? The ones that I have routinely encountered as "Stupid" according to Christians include but are not limited to:

Mormen
Unitarian Universalists
Scientologists (can't say I disagree there)
Astrologers
RCs
Non-RCs
Cultists
Baptists (for the Rapture)

I am NOT saying that Christians are stupid. The reason I ask is that there are so many sects that espouse simply absurd beliefs. They are even deemed absurd by the other members of the faith. The big ones can't agree with the little ones. The Trinitarians worship three gods and claim one. The Unitarians claim one god, but are accepting of three. Some wear Holy Knickers, others wear pointy hats. Most of them like testicles on their holy people. Some have prophetesses that won't allow modern medicine. Others have prophetesses that insist upon it, yet equally insist that women can't be pastors!

It is not that much of a leap IMO to see how they think Christians stupid. Don't you occasionally think how stupid other denoms are? I mean really, no matter which group you are in, the out-group is always the bastard. I've met very few people that could avoid this, and they were saints on earth.

In addition, atheists have often been ran through the wringer by religion, or the religious anyway. Took me a long time to settle into my current nontheist stance and even now I hide it from many in the interest of avoiding problems, if not persecution. The church I came out of, frankly, still pisses me off if I think about how they treat people. If I just focus on the "good" individuals, well, that's how I can overlook it.

Embracing one's religion's stupidity is a lesson I feel that needs to be learned.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Well, that was fun. Anyone got a glass of Histrionic tonic?

Speaking of, how's the self-pity coming along, Geo? Got more whining in store for us on the topic of overheard hypothetical persecutions at the office from 7 years ago?

Boy, I tell ya: that last story had me crying my eyes out....

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benjdm
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Madalyn Murray O'Hair and Larry Hooper jump to mind as two atheists who were murdered. Well short of the Matthew Shepard etc. list that was already posted.
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Mad Geo

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Ah the joys of being an atheist in America:

Atheist family ejected from their neighborhood. Another family is ejected by a landlord after it's found out.

Then look at the attitudes displayed by two members of the panel. "They need to shut up" "Obnoxious" "Europe is becoming intolerant" Unbelievable.

More atheist bashing, complete with false legal indictments.

Seven states have actual anti-atheist laws. "No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

Atheist fired. Wins lawsuit.

Famous atheists son has job yanked.....
Death threats. Boycott.

Conversation with the Bush Campaign coChairman, Ed Murnane
quote:

Sherman: American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday. Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?

Murnane: It's bullshit.

Sherman: What is bullshit?

Murnane: Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit.

Sherman: Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush campaign is on this issue.

Murnane: You're welcome


Let me guess.....no one died.....yet.

Oh Wait!

Benjd found the smoking gun. I guess that means ahteists are a persecuted lot now, since we documented all the requirements to date. Stand by for the rules to change.....

[ 31. July 2007, 01:28: Message edited by: Mad Geo ]

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
Madalyn Murray O'Hair and Larry Hooper jump to mind as two atheists who were murdered. Well short of the Matthew Shepard etc. list that was already posted.

I thought MMO was an unsolved mystery?
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mousethief

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Finally, some evidence (remains to be seen if it's good evidence but let's lay that aside for now). Now we can debate about whether these things constitute persecution, rather than a couple of anecdotes. Thank you.

And the O'Hairs were murdered by another atheist so their blood is on youse guys, not us. [Biased]

[ 31. July 2007, 01:56: Message edited by: MouseThief ]

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TubaMirum
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Several things.

First of all, if an atheist wins a lawsuit, and on the basis of "religious discrimination," doesn't that disprove prior statements that "there aren't any protections for atheists"? I only ask because in many places there really aren't any protections for gay people, who can be fired at will and do not have a basis for bringing a lawsuit.

Second of all, those "No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution" laws are old laws that have never been repealed from the books; every state used to have them. So get them repealed, just like gay people worked to do.

Third of all, it was an atheist's son who got his job yanked (and restored, BTW). How is that "discrimination against atheists"? Is the son an atheist? (Hint: the article said the father was a "well-known litigious lawyer.")

Fourth of all, who cares what the Bush campaign says about American Atheists? The Bush campaign is run by Karl Rove; what did you expect? (And maybe American Atheists is an idiotic organization? It could happen, and it doesn't say anything about the treatment of atheists generally.)

The murder of the atheist is very bad, of course. And those are indeed a bunch of idiots on CNN, no doubt. Will look at the other links and comment on those later.

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TubaMirum
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(P.S.: Have you ever heard the Bush Admin - and its lackies in the infotainment world - talk about the ACLU? It's much worse than that.)
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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
And the O'Hairs were murdered by another atheist so their blood is on youse guys, not us. [Biased]

Really ? I didn't realize that one had been solved.

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Fourth of all, who cares what the Bush campaign says about American Atheists?

It was the elder bush, George H. W. Bush, and the worst quote wasn't put in. Sherman was the only one to document it, making it suspect, but here is what supposedly was said:

quote:
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm
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Timothy the Obscure

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
That [Obama]'s not ahead is a product of his lack of experience, not his color. The presidency is not an entry-level position. Hillaries got more experience in her pinkie toe.

[tangent]Obama's political resume is pretty nearly equivalent to Lincoln's in 1860 (Lincoln had eight years of legislative experience at the state level to Obama's seven, and two years at the federal level to Obama's three)[/tangent]

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
It was the elder bush, George H. W. Bush, and the worst quote wasn't put in. Sherman was the only one to document it, making it suspect, but here is what supposedly was said:

quote:
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm
Yeah, Reagan and Bush said the same sorts of things about gay people, so I can understand the animosity.

BTW, the guy who murdered the atheist was found "guilty of second-degree murder with mental illness." Not that it excuses it, of course, but it's not too surprising that that's the case. Here's a quote from the article:

quote:
On December 19, 2005, we returned to Judge Bill's court to witness sentencing of Arthur Shelton. The prosecution asked for the 'high end' of punishment - 25 to 45 years, while the defense was still pleading for not guilty due to insanity or, at the very most, a soft sentence at the 'low end' of punishment 15 to 22 years. Judge Bill invited Shelton to make a statement and after fumbling for words Shelton stated he was sorry that Larry was dead but he did a job that had to be done. He stated that he actually, "saw fire and smoke coming from Larry's eyes and knew he was the devil himself."
The family is obviously bonkers also. And these two guys were friends and roommates; I don't think this proves anything, honestly, as bad as it is.
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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Obama's political resume is pretty nearly equivalent to Lincoln's in 1860 (Lincoln had eight years of legislative experience at the state level to Obama's seven, and two years at the federal level to Obama's three)[/tangent]

Lincoln didn't have his finger on a glowing red nuke button.

Things are just a smidgie different now.

[Biased]

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
The family is obviously bonkers also. And these two guys were friends and roommates; I don't think this proves anything, honestly, as bad as it is.

No disagreement. I just thought I'd throw out what info I had.
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Mad Geo

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I keep hearing you say Yeah, but.... Yeah, but....

You asked for evidence and now we have provided it. That some of you are trying to minimize/dismiss/question it was completely and sadly, predictable.

The evidence points to a trend. The trend is that when atheists speak up about their beliefs, they are ostracised, ejected from their communities, and quite possibly beaten and or killed.

I had stated that only 1% of the 7% of atheists are in hiding for a reason. I have proved that they have good reason. That they are upheld in court like gays and blacks before them doesn't mean they have made the same progress in civil rights, or anywhere near it. Polls indicate the gross bias towards them. All the evidence is now pointing to persecution by everyone's defintion here.

That you somehow want to dismiss this as irrelevant indicates repressed bias, outright hostility to atheists, an agenda, or something similar. I invite you to investigate your own weaknesses, if it applies to you.

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
That you somehow want to dismiss this as irrelevant indicates repressed bias, outright hostility to atheists, an agenda, or something similar. I invite you to investigate your own weaknesses, if it applies to you.

To my recollection, no one has dismissed it in the way you characterize. The difference of opinion is really a minor one - what it takes for the label 'persecuted' to apply. Is there anyone in the thread who would dispute that generally speaking (granted it varies wildly by area) people's opinions of atheists are lower than many other groups and this translates into actual harm ? I would not dispute this for GLBT, Muslims, blacks, and probably others who I have forgotten. GLBT would be closest to persecuted (or actually persecuted) IMO. I don't see Muslims or atheists as persecuted. The harms are real and significant, but I don't see it rising near the level I would label persecution.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
That you somehow want to dismiss this as irrelevant indicates repressed bias, outright hostility to atheists, an agenda, or something similar. I invite you to investigate your own weaknesses, if it applies to you.

I'll keep this handy advice in mind, but if I should ever find it necessary to investigate any psychological weaknesses I may have, I probably will seek out the assistance of a licensed professional, not an internet discussion board.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I keep hearing you say Yeah, but.... Yeah, but....

You asked for evidence and now we have provided it. That some of you are trying to minimize/dismiss/question it was completely and sadly, predictable.

The evidence points to a trend. The trend is that when atheists speak up about their beliefs, they are ostracised, ejected from their communities, and quite possibly beaten and or killed.

I had stated that only 1% of the 7% of atheists are in hiding for a reason. I have proved that they have good reason. That they are upheld in court like gays and blacks before them doesn't mean they have made the same progress in civil rights, or anywhere near it. Polls indicate the gross bias towards them. All the evidence is now pointing to persecution by everyone's defintion here.

That you somehow want to dismiss this as irrelevant indicates repressed bias, outright hostility to atheists, an agenda, or something similar. I invite you to investigate your own weaknesses, if it applies to you.

IOW, you don't really want to actually discuss anything. You just want to make outrageous statements and loudly feel sorry for yourself in public and make ad hominem arguments against anybody who disagrees with or questions you.

Gee. What a shock.

[ 31. July 2007, 03:56: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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TubaMirum
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(P.S., Georgie: you're the only one here who doesn't seem to get the point that everybody else is making.

So it could just possibly be your problem - and I invite you to consider that.)

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Mad Geo

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Has it occured to you yet TM, that I do not feel sorry for myself? Because it should have. Stop transferring.

And MT, if this Board or others helps you understand things about yourself, as it does to other thinking individuals here including myself, well then you may not need to see a therapist about that particlur issue. But if you do need to see one for this, well by all means.

Enjoy.

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mousethief

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"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons." -- Emerson

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Wulfstan
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benjdm said:
quote:
Really ? I didn't realize that one had been solved.
Yeah it has. There was a programme about the O'Hairs on BBC4 a few months back. They've even found the remains of the bodies. The culprit was a nut-job, of no religious affiliation, who got fired by them and took revenge.
I agree with your summary of the debate(?) so far as well. The definition of persecution is the key here, but it's hard to discuss it amidst the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
MG said:
quote:
You asked for evidence and now we have provided it. That some of you are trying to minimize/dismiss/question it was completely and sadly, predictable.
Y'see this is such a cheap shot. You've provided some evidence, but for the first 3 screens that consisted of two surveys suggesting dislike not persecution. This last lot is more interesting but persecution is a big word and since one of your cases resulted in the atheist winning their case, despite the "Christo-fascists", there's still room for debate.
quote:
That you somehow want to dismiss this as irrelevant indicates repressed bias
Again, cheap shot. No-one's done that, they've just questioned how far it proves persecution en-masse. And the cod-psychology bit is just juvenile.
quote:
LOL. Anyone that knows me here and IRL knows that the last thing on earth I advocate is government interference.

I think churches should practice what the preach. They often don’t. If they are intolerant assholes, I simply plan to be there to point it out, when I encounter it.

Because that'll really be constructive.
quote:
I am NOT saying that Christians are stupid. The reason I ask is that there are so many sects that espouse simply absurd beliefs. They are even deemed absurd by the other members of the faith. The big ones can't agree with the little ones. The Trinitarians worship three gods and claim one. The Unitarians claim one god, but are accepting of three. Some wear Holy Knickers, others wear pointy hats. Most of them like testicles on their holy people. Some have prophetesses that won't allow modern medicine. Others have prophetesses that insist upon it, yet equally insist that women can't be pastors!
And you see this is just a wilful misrepresentation. Trinitarians worship 3 Gods? Of course. Absolutely they do. Grow Up.
quote:
The limitations you place on yourself are of no relevance to me and feel free to keep them to yourself. When you have walked a mile in my shoes on this, you may then be skeptical of my experience with religion.
I see. You are above criticism. Your experiences prove universal discrimination, no-one has suffered like you. Your visionary utterances will call the guilty to account, and anyone who doubts you is a "Christo-fascist" oppressor.
quote:
Embracing one's religion's stupidity is a lesson I feel that needs to be learned.
Yeah, how about one's non-religious stupidity?
We're pretty much just flinging insults now and while I won't call you a liar (I neither know nor care) I can't take you seriously and I think the reverse is probably true, so I think I'll call it a day.

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by Wulfstan:
... I think I'll call it a day.

[Yipee]

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JoannaP
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This CNN story has more evidence of American dislike of atheists:
quote:
An earlier poll by the Pew Research Center said 30 percent of respondents said they would be less likely to vote for a candidate that was Mormon. The negative sentiment rose to 46 percent for Muslim candidates and to 63 percent for a candidate who "doesn't believe in God."
I have no idea what the equivalent figures in the UK are but they certainly would be different. I would expect an atheist to be preferable to a Muslim but I could be wrong.

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