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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Are atheists a persecuted group?
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Geez,
Give us a minute to post already.
I have no problem with the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts merging into one Scouts entity. None whatsoever. As long as they accept girl and boy atheists and gays, it's all good.
That's not the question. I'm asking you why you're not making a big stink about girls - you haven't, once - the way you are about atheists. Why aren't you arguing against the Boy Scouts on this basis? Why aren't you trying to destroy the organization on behalf of girls? Are they second-class citizens, to you?
I'll give you plenty of time to figure this one out....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
You are not serious. Let me break it down for you:
A. Boy Scouts
B. Girl Scouts
C. Equality.
A+B=C
Got it?
And Oh By The Way, someone not that long ago gave me an ass chewing for using gays and women as examples of discrimination. I WONDER who THAT could possibly BE? I wonder why I am gun shy to answer questions along those lines until someone else asks the question. Apparently us atheists.nontheists aren't allowed to point out the obvious with regards to gays and women's issues. The fact that I am DEEPLY and SINCERELY concerned that women and gays be treated as stone cold equals is apparently immaterial for Buddha-knows-what-stupid-fucking- reason. I am likewise concerned that atheists.nonthiests get a fair deal too. But clearly YMMustV.
But I digress.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
You are not serious. Let me break it down for you:
A. Boy Scouts
B. Girl Scouts
C. Equality.
A+B=C
Got it?
No. The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts aren't equivalent; the Girl Scouts were formed later as a totally separate organization. Get it? The two organizations have different policies and different structures.
And today there are plenty of scouting organizations that accept all boys, even ones shut out by the Boy Scouts. Get it?
[ 03. August 2007, 15:52: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
And Oh By The Way, someone not that long ago gave me an ass chewing for using gays and women as examples of discrimination. I WONDER who THAT could possibly BE? I wonder why I am gun shy to answer questions along those lines until someone else asks the question. Apparently us atheists.nontheists aren't allowed to point out the obvious with regards to gays and women's issues. The fact that I am DEEPLY and SINCERELY concerned that women and gays be treated as stone cold equals is apparently immaterial for Buddha-knows-what-stupid-fucking- reason.
Well, it's simple: you've been an abusive jerk to me, not once but several times. Sorry it comes as such a shock to you that I don't like you.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Anybody on the girls thing? Anybody at all?
Or are you all just going to continue to persecute us?
Actually, I would agree with you. But since right now Girl Scouts have (IMO) the superior group and I can't find any females asking for my support in opposing the policy...'til now, that is. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I do not agree. I think adolescense is a time when people are working out a lot of stuff that is far easier to work out (or at least some major bits of it are) in a unisex setting.
[ 03. August 2007, 16:14: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
I do not agree. I think adolescense is a time when people are working out a lot of stuff that is far easier to work out (or at least some major bits of it are) in a unisex setting.
Yes, I agree with this.
I was being facetious above; my point was to demonstrate the inconsistencies in the arguments that are being made here.
People who claim to be Libertarians shouldn't get so bent out of shape about this, actually.
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
(And please, the sad story about "being chewed out" hasn't stopped you, MadMan, from arguing against the Boy Scouts on behalf of gay boys.
You just didn't think about girls - or else you recognized that what Mousethief says is right and that it might weaken your argument.
Come off it, really.)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Yes, I agree with this.
I was being facetious above; my point was to demonstrate the inconsistencies in the arguments that are being made here.
Okay, missed that. I think my irony meter is in need of some serious calibration.
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
MTs on a roll today. Well said.
TM
If girl scouts aren't equivelent (which I don't grant you), whose fault is that? You cannot seriously be saying that they need to mash up with boy scouts because the women in charge can't (persumably) emulate the best aspects of the other organization, are you?
As for your personal issues, it takes two to tango. You aren't exactly the Patron Saint of Diplomatic Language yourself. What was it someone said recently? Ah yes, something to the effect of "Get a thicker skin".
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Crossposted. Your irony meter isn't off. The delivery was.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
My but this thread is going fast.
TM,
"MadMan" is unacceptable. Before you can claim persecution by me, I suggest you try to actually look like a victim first.
Someone else brought up gay boys first IIRC. But it's no matter, I subsequently decided I'd use whatever groups I see fit. No point in letting someone else's personal issues get in the way of a discussion.
[ 03. August 2007, 16:41: Message edited by: Mad Geo ]
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
"MadMan" is unacceptable. Before you can claim persecution by me, I suggest you try to actually look like a victim first.
Someone else brought up gay boys first IIRC. But it's no matter, I subsequently decided I'd use whatever groups I see fit. No point in letting someone else's personal issues get in the way of a discussion.
I'm not claiming to be a "victim," or that I'm "persecuted" by you of all people; you can have the victim act all to yourself.
You wondered why you were getting the reception you were; I told you, that's all. Don't ask if you don't want to know.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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historyguy
Apprentice
# 12888
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Posted
Hello all,
First post!
I think that the Boy/Girl Scouts need to define themselves further if they do not want to allow certain populations to join. So long as they state up front that they are a group based on a particular religious ethos, I have no problem with their limiting their membership to those who agree with their views.
As for the broader question of this thread, it seems to me that there is a fundamental difference between embracing someone's beliefs on a personal level and accepting their right to believe how they wish.
I can (and we should) accept a person's right to be gay, atheist, Christian, or Muslim without embracing any of those beliefs to be "right" in a spiritual sense. Of course, I may not want to elect someone to office who does not share my worldview, but if my worldview is in the minority or if I define my voting criteria too narrowly, I'll likely lose.
By this definition, I do not believe that (in most cases) atheists are persecuted. Certainly there are exceptions that I have seen, having spent a number of years living in the most theocratic state in the U.S. - Utah. But for the most part I consider this claim to be a hyperbolic use of the word "persecution". Blacks, Jews, and gays can certainly make such a claim, but atheists? Not very often.
However, as an American I believe that one of our founders, James Madison, was right when he warned against the "tyranny of the majority". Most Western nations, of course, have adopted mechanisms to protect minority belief systems and identities.
These systems are constantly circumvented by those of an ideological bent (whether they be common citizens or the President of the U.S.), but there's only so far that they can go before people and elements in the government reel them in. Call me naive, but even the overt racism that characterized the U.S. for most of its history was eventually dealt with (although it took far too long for that to occur).
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Well that was as productive as expected. Clearly your desire to hold a grudge overwhelms your desire to have a discussion. The Christian Love is underwhelming I gotta say.
I still demand respect, even if hateful. Cease and desist with the name calling.
I'll tell you what.
I throw out a fresh start, an olive branch as it were. You try to be as good in Purg with me as you can be, and I will do the same with you. I plan to anyway. Since that is The Commandments and all, I think that's a fair offer. You may attack the issue not the person and all that.
Meanwhile the discussion can continue, regardless.
The math is again simple,
Girl Scouts have their version of Boy Scouts which meets the requirements of equitable-ness. Gays and Atheists do not (or at least not that I am aware of). We do not tolerate persecution of minorities in such matters, or at least we shouldn’t.
It is an interesting question as to WHY people feel the need to discriminate against gay and atheist boy scouts, isn’t it? They clearly think they are inferior in some way. Those ways are probably that they are afraid that they will 1) corrupt them with other ways of viewing the world 2) inferior ethical stances 3) pedophilia (in the case of gays).
Since 1 is to be desired and 2 and 3 are absurd, unless there is some other motive at play, why would one support prejudice such as displayed by the Scouts?
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Girl Scouts have their version of Boy Scouts which meets the requirements of equitable-ness. Gays and Atheists do not (or at least not that I am aware of).
Why don't the atheists make one? I understand the gay thing because most teenage people aren't even sure about their sexuality, and the "reverent/duty-to-God <> gay" thing is debatable. But "reverent/duty-to-God <> atheist" is hard for me to argue with. It's like a bunch of buddhists in Podunk, Mississippi saying "there's not enough of us to start a temple, so the Christians have to let us in, and moreover alter their teachings so that our religious views aren't discriminated against."
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Why don't blacks?
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I've already admitted my hypocrisy in that regard. Now go play nicely with your toys.
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
And there you go. I was merely answering your question.
I had to leave my toys at home. Work and all that.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think there is historic reason to think that discriminating against blacks goes against the core of Christian teaching. Not enlarging one's doctrine to include Buddhism doesn't seem so nearly so central.
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Actually, "Love thy neighbor" seems pretty fundie to me. YbiasMV
[ 03. August 2007, 18:30: Message edited by: Mad Geo ]
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
The Christian Love is underwhelming I gotta say.
Oh, right. That's what we were talking about before.
It's impossible to chide anybody for a lack of "athiest love," isn't it?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
It's impossible to chide anybody for a lack of "athiest love," isn't it?
I'm not quite sure what you're insinuating, drenched as it seems to be in sarcasm.
Would you please explain?
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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Why don't the atheists make one? I understand the gay thing because most teenage people aren't even sure about their sexuality, and the "reverent/duty-to-God <> gay" thing is debatable.
Gay people are not rejected because of the reverent thing. Gays are obviously incapable of being morally straight.
http://www.bsalegal.org/morally-straight-cases-225.asp
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
It's impossible to chide anybody for a lack of "athiest love," isn't it?
I'm not quite sure what you're insinuating, drenched as it seems to be in sarcasm.
Would you please explain?
Well, it's simple: Christians are expected to show "Christian love" because we are exhorted to "love our neighbors as ourselves."
There's no such standard for atheists. Right?
It's not sarcasm, just a plain fact. We were talking about this on your "hypocrisy" thread, in fact; you yourself said that since there was no specifically atheist standard, there was no way atheists could be scolded for hypocrisy. And since there's no expectation that atheists "love their neighbors," they can't be scolded for failing to do so.
[ 03. August 2007, 19:24: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
Gay people are not rejected because of the reverent thing. Gays are obviously incapable of being morally straight.
I've already addressed this. You may want to scroll up.
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Christians are expected to show "Christian love" because we are exhorted to "love our neighbors as ourselves."
Well, I'm your neighbour, and I'm not feeling your Christian love, TubaMirum.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
We're not required to make you feel it, only to do it. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Well, I'm your neighbour, and I'm not feeling your Christian love, TubaMirum.
Why not? What have I done?
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Well, I'm your neighbour, and I'm not feeling your Christian love, TubaMirum.
Why not? What have I done?
I'm putting my neck out here. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
If you need me, an atheist, to tell you what Christian love should feel like, I think we’re in trouble. But, since you ask, I’d presume love to manifest itself as tolerance and understanding when your neighbours complain of feeling discriminated against- not steadfast denial and endless counter-argument that they even should. To me, love would imply kindness, empathy, consideration, even trust, that your neighbour is sincere in his feelings, and a willingness to seek resolution. Instead, I just feel antipathy and intransigence. But that’s okay. I won’t be crying myself to sleep or anything.
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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
Gay people are not rejected because of the reverent thing. Gays are obviously incapable of being morally straight.
I've already addressed this. You may want to scroll up.
Well, I'm lost again. You posted 'reverent <> gay' when the basis for excluding homosexuals is not reverence but moral straightness - that's all I was pointing out.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Ah, you were unhappy because I wasn't complete enough in my statement? Okay how does this suit:
All the religious requirements of the scout oath and law do not of themselves preclude homosexual scouts.
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Ah, you were unhappy because I wasn't complete enough in my statement? Okay how does this suit:
All the religious requirements of the scout oath and law do not of themselves preclude homosexual scouts.
Of course. Similarly, all the moral requirements of the scout oath and law do not themselves preclude atheist scouts.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But the religious ones do.
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
It's impossible to chide anybody for a lack of "athiest love," isn't it?
That's pretty funny actually. As someone once said: Those that behave just to get into heaven, have no values. "Love thy neighbor" indeed. As long as "thy neighbor" is one of those particular genders/creeds/breeds that we approve of, of course.
It's been my observation that many atheists.nonthiests are humanists which affirm the dignity and worth of all people.
Speaking for myself, I respect the Christians that apply their "love thy neighbor" principle wholeheartedly. It has been my experience that they are rare, but they do occur, and many of them on the Ship.
The difference is that atheists/nontheists don't treat their humanism like a marketing gimmick and wave it around like the flag like Christianity does. Pretty hard to do while hiding what you are from the Christians anyway.
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
If you need me, an atheist, to tell you what Christian love should feel like, I think we’re in trouble. But, since you ask, I’d presume love to manifest itself as tolerance and understanding when your neighbours complain of feeling discriminated against- not steadfast denial and endless counter-argument that they even should. To me, love would imply kindness, empathy, consideration, even trust, that your neighbour is sincere in his feelings, and a willingness to seek resolution. Instead, I just feel antipathy and intransigence. But that’s okay. I won’t be crying myself to sleep or anything.
Sorry, Dogwonderer.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
The difference is that atheists/nontheists don't treat their humanism like a marketing gimmick and wave it around like the flag like Christianity does.
No they treat their "rationality" that way.
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
That's pretty funny actually. As someone once said: Those that behave just to get into heaven, have no values. "Love thy neighbor" indeed. As long as "thy neighbor" is one of those particular genders/creeds/breeds that we approve of, of course.
It's been my observation that many atheists.nonthiests are humanists which affirm the dignity and worth of all people.
Speaking for myself, I respect the Christians that apply their "love thy neighbor" principle wholeheartedly. It has been my experience that they are rare, but they do occur, and many of them on the Ship.
The difference is that atheists/nontheists don't treat their humanism like a marketing gimmick and wave it around like the flag like Christianity does. Pretty hard to do while hiding what you are from the Christians anyway.
All that in order to avoid the actual point, which is that you can feel free to use other people's known standards against them - but that since others have no idea what any particular atheists' standards are, they can't do the same thing.
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
But the religious ones do.
And, apparently, the moral ones preclude homosexuals. Different parts of the oaths / code are the reasons for the exclusions of each.
Posts: 357 | From: Northeastern U.S. | Registered: Aug 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You will persist in misreading me, benjdm. I ask you to stop.
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
You will persist in misreading me, benjdm. I ask you to stop.
OK. Can anyone else explain the point to me ?
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
...you can feel free to use other people's known standards against them - but that since others have no idea what any particular atheists' standards are, they can't do the same thing.
But I've discovered today that it is not appropriate to group Christians together and judge them accordingly. Likewise with atheists (and we are likely to be even more diverse than Christians, without a Christ to unite us).
So, I'm afraid you have to judge us individually, on our individual merits, and abandon your presumptions about us as a group.
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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
All that in order to avoid the actual point, which is that you can feel free to use other people's known standards against them - but that since others have no idea what any particular atheists' standards are, they can't do the same thing.
Perhaps you fail to see that treating people like shit while flag waving a creed that says the opposite (or whatever) is worse than saying nothing at all. I can see how you might want that to be, but I'm, afraid the rest of the world doesn't see it your way.
While I am not thinking MT is a hypocrite, I can respect his understanding of how others might view that as hypocrisy.
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Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
I'm curious, though, why it's considered out of bounds to advise people to get thicker skins in order to fight the injustices against them. For one thing, that specifically gives the lie to the idea that I deny there's discrimination. For another, it's not an insult; it's advice. I've been there and I know. You don't have to be insulted by people who don't like you for ridiculous reasons; that just gives them satisfaction they don't deserve.
And again: I've been arguing that discrimination is not "persecution" - and BTW just about everybody here agrees with me, including both atheists and former atheists. I thought this was a Debate board; are you saying that "Christian love" implies that I have to agree with everything everybody says? That seems vile, to me.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Dogwonderer, but it wasn't intentional.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What did I say, MG? I'm not sure what you're referring to.
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
So, I'm afraid you have to judge us individually, on our individual merits, and abandon your presumptions about us as a group.
I don't and can't have any presumptions about atheists as a group, since atheists don't have anything in common, necessarily. That's the whole point.
And you forget: I was an atheist myself. Why in the world do you think we're so different that I can't possibly understand what it's like? Why are you making out that we are so completely different and that I'm one of the "persecutors"? It's insulting, frankly.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Dogwonderer, but it wasn't intentional.
You didn't, but thank you for your kind apology- I do appreciate it. FWIW, I do not bear a grudge against you.
I think one of the problems here is when one person decides for another how thick their skin ought to be.
I think there should be a Golden Rule of discrimination: If a person feels discriminated against (rightly or not), it may be more prudent not to contest this fact by disputing the validity of their feelings or by criticising their sensitivity threshold. I cannot imagine this would often be very constructive, and I suspect it would generally reinforce their sense of being discriminated against. Pointless, really.
Love is good, though.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
There's discrimination and there's persecution. The OP was about the latter. I'm not denying atheists are discriminated against; I don't remember anybody on the thread doing so either although I may be disremembering. The debate (pre-boy-scout anyway) has been about the meaning of "persecution" and whether discrimination counts.
I wouldn't deny anybody their feelings. But I may ask if in relating those feelings to us, they are using the words the way everybody else does, or are at least paying them extra if they're not.
[ 03. August 2007, 21:37: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Perhaps you fail to see that treating people like shit while flag waving a creed that says the opposite (or whatever) is worse than saying nothing at all. I can see how you might want that to be, but I'm, afraid the rest of the world doesn't see it your way.
While I am not thinking MT is a hypocrite, I can respect his understanding of how others might view that as hypocrisy.
Stop pretending I'm saying anything about "creeds," please. I'm disagreeing with you on a topic that I have personal experience of myself. Stop making out like we're different species so you can play the put-upon victim.
I don't agree with you on this particular topic; neither do about fifty other people, both current and former atheists. You apparently can't handle that except by attempting to smear me in as many ways as you can think of.
Sad.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I don't and can't have any presumptions about atheists as a group, since atheists don't have anything in common, necessarily. That's the whole point.
The fact that it is possible to use the word `atheist' of some particular set of people implies that there is at least some commonality of viewpoint, surely? In any event, I'd be inclined to think that there's as much commonality in theological belief among atheists as there is among those people who describe themselves as `Christians'.
However, if you're suggesting that there are no common, objective moral principles that are associated with atheism, I would be inclined to agree. The fact that atheists do have moral standards, and that they are often similar from one person to another, is not because they are atheists, but because they are people.
Having said that, I tend to think that the same is true of Christians as well. Where a bunch of Christians disagrees with a bunch of atheists on some question of morality, it's likely to be question on which Christians themselves disagree. That's my experience, anyhow.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005
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