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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Are atheists a persecuted group?
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Why are you making out that we are so completely different and that I'm one of the "persecutors"? It's insulting, frankly.
I can see that, and I regret it.
But discrimination is such an emotive issue, I'm like a dog with a bone: I just won't let go. The princple is so important to me. If there's one thing mankind ought to have learnt by now, discrimination on religious grounds is simply unacceptable. I'm honestly surprised by anyone who even offers a counter-argument to this. Especially someone who belongs to one of the most discriminated-against groups in history.
Intolerance cannot be tolerated.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
The fact that it is possible to use the word `atheist' of some particular set of people implies that there is at least some commonality of viewpoint, surely? In any event, I'd be inclined to think that there's as much commonality in theological belief among atheists as there is among those people who describe themselves as `Christians'.
I'd say it is more accurate to say there's as much commonality in theological belief among theists as atheists. <shrug> I'd compare humanists to Christians.
Posts: 357 | From: Northeastern U.S. | Registered: Aug 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
I think one of the problems here is when one person decides for another how thick their skin ought to be.
I think there should be a Golden Rule of discrimination: If a person feels discriminated against (rightly or not), it may be more prudent not to contest this fact by disputing the validity of their feelings or by criticising their sensitivity threshold. I cannot imagine this would often be very constructive, and I suspect it would generally reinforce their sense of being discriminated against. Pointless, really.
Love is good, though.
Well, you might be right about the "skins" thing. I really meant to just say, "Fuck 'em" and that they weren't worth getting worked up over.
It doesn't matter what these people think; they are wrong. That's all. But I will take your advice and not say it that way again.
Most of this, I think, is that I'm fighting with George and the particular way he (euphemistically speaking) "debates," and unfortunately I think you're in the crossfire. But I never meant most of these comments against you at all.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
But I don't consider it wrong on principle for a private group to have bizarre membership criteria. That's just part of the right of peaceful assembly....
....Which immediately raises the question of groups that want to keep out blacks or Jews or disabled people, which I do consider wrong on principle. Making me either hypocritical or wishy-washy depending on how charitable one is feeling.
Actually TM, my bad, apologies, when I said that about creeds I was NOT referring to you, but to (some) Christians, whom you seem to be defending with regards to this issue of prejudice against atheists whilst professing "love thy neighbor". I did not intend for you to own that.
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Stop pretending I'm saying anything about "creeds," please. I'm disagreeing with you on a topic that I have personal experience of myself. Stop making out like we're different species so you can play the put-upon victim.
I don't agree with you on this particular topic; neither do about fifty other people, both current and former atheists. You apparently can't handle that except by attempting to smear me in as many ways as you can think of.
I want to make it clear again that I am not a victim here. I am one of the ones that WOULD "put it out there" if it were relevant and I have here to be sure. I would be selective WHERE I put it out there as I too want to keep my job etc. But some of my personal experiences might be considerably victim-like for someone with thinner skin, so it is relevant to the conversation.
As for your 50 (...not....) people you're in agreement with..... Well YEAH. It's a Christian board!
DW, Benjdm, myself, and others are the CLEAR minority here, so having numbers on your side and taking it as some kind of Manifest Destiny that you are right is a wee bit, well, hillarious. Good luck with that.
I have already said I will behave. You can assume any "smearing" is probably mud that you are standing in, or something. I am NOT trying to slam you.
P.S. George is also not my name. It is short for Geologist.
[ 03. August 2007, 21:53: Message edited by: Mad Geo ]
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
I might also add that the way you debate TM is so similar to the way I debate it is truly a pot, kettle, black and probably why we WERE both getting under each others skin. That is not a dig, it is an observation.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
..unfortunately I think you're in the crossfire. But I never meant most of these comments against you at all.
Not at all- please don't worry about the crossfire. I don't feel at all injured, but I do remain very keen to make my viewpoint understood. It's a useful debate, and I'm glad to contribute (for what that's worth).
Re: the discrimination/persecution thing. Totally different, but closely related. Like racist jokes- harmless humour, or not? Don't ask the joke-teller, ask the subject.
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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
I can see that, and I regret it.
But discrimination is such an emotive issue, I'm like a dog with a bone: I just won't let go. The princple is so important to me. If there's one thing mankind ought to have learnt by now, discrimination on religious grounds is simply unacceptable. I'm honestly surprised by anyone who even offers a counter-argument to this. Especially someone who belongs to one of the most discriminated-against groups in history.
Intolerance cannot be tolerated.
I've said that the policy is wrong and discriminatory, quite a number of times. I don't know what else I'm supposed to say. I don't think it's worth worrying about anymore, though, because the issue's been decided legally and because there are so many other things to worry about.
No gay person thinks or talks about the Boy Scouts at this point; it's way, way down on the list of things to do.
There is also discrimination here against girls, though, which nobody seems to notice. That was my only point, really.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
DW, Benjdm, myself, and others are the CLEAR minority here, so having numbers on your side and taking it as some kind of Manifest Destiny that you are right is a wee bit, well, hillarious. Good luck with that.
You're not quite getting the point that lots of us are speaking from personal experience; atheism isn't genetic or biological, and it's not permanent, either, by observation.
Or that other atheists agree with me that "persecution" is not correct. And THAT, my dear Geologist, is the topic here.
In fact, you're the only one who continues to make this claim. Funny, that....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
I'm sorry, did I enter the tyranny of the democracy and somebody failed to put up a sign?
I swear to Buddha, you can't imagine how little I care if I am the last person standing in the room on a position. Nor should anyone else, ever. It's called a discussion, and it would be pretty dull with all of you slapping each other on the back about how you all agree, wouldn't it?
If I was on a jury of someone's conviction, I wouldn't let you shout me down (or whatever) with 50 or 100 people's opinion, and I won't let it happen here either. It's absurd you're even trying.
Oh and btw, I am not at all sure DW is in disagreement with me. I suspect he is slightly to the side of me and to the other side of you. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. But I'll let him clarify his position if he should want to. He's probably smart enough to stay out of it. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Actually, it's become sort of funny to listen to somebody who blasts Christians 24 hours a day - on a Christian website, BTW - complain of persecution by Christians.
It's something of a self-falsifying claim, actually. Wouldn't you say?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
LOL,
Yes, because I never sleep.
What better place to talk about it? Perhaps someone besides yourself might reconsider their completely bigoted opinoins in the darkness of those expressed here. Not yours mind you. Whatever opinions that might be bigoted.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Why don't the atheists make one? I understand the gay thing because most teenage people aren't even sure about their sexuality, and the "reverent/duty-to-God <> gay" thing is debatable. But "reverent/duty-to-God <> atheist" is hard for me to argue with.
Judging from some of the confusion on this thread, you may want to rephrase your statements for those not familiar with <>, the not-equal operator from Pascal.
[ 04. August 2007, 14:23: Message edited by: J. J. Ramsey ]
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
Judging from some of the confusion on this thread, you may want to rephrase your statements for those not familiar with <>, the not-equal operator from Pascal.
How about actually pointing out some of the "confusion," or perhaps making an argument?
While the "we're-so-much-smarter-than-you" thing is, I suppose, a lot easier than the above, it's a bit, well, light on substance. A bit weak, I'm afraid....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
(BTW, these door-to-door atheists are as bad as the religionists they parody.
Preaching theology as "fact" - and offering no evidence whatsoever - seems to be the tactic of both groups. Ironic, that.)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Well, I will say that, persecuted or not, there are definitely people - sadly, kids and younger people - who face discrimination for their atheism, and we should actively support them. Following are some comments from Richard Dawkins.net, under an article titled "The Out Campaign." One kid writes that:
quote:
I live in Lancaster, PA. Yeah, I'm talking about the place where thousands of people are partying like it's 1699. Ok, so most people around here aren't Amish, but the red here is deep and dark. 75% of my relatives the women wear coverings and the men drive black cars. In their churches, the women sit on the one side and the men sit on the other (in order that they don't have sexual thoughts during prayer service. I'M NOT KIDDING!!!) Coming out scares me to death. I envy you people who live in areas of the world that are so tolerant to individual beliefs.
Another writes:
quote:
Its scary as hell coming out in a red state like MO. But I did indeed do just that. Here is my letter to the editor called, "The New Brights, and Why I Am One Of Them."
I understand that many have issues with the term Bright, but my local paper would not print anything I wrote with Atheist in it. So I altered it a bit, and got a response. They have confirmed that I wrote it, and said they plan on printing it. Only time will tell
I am a liitle nervous, but all in all pleased with what I have done.
Here is the Editorial I wrote,
What is a Bright you ask? According to the Brights Web site http://www.the-brights.net , a bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview. Whose worldview is free of supernatural and mystical elements. In a nutshell, we do not believe in a god or gods. Brights are individuals who do not think alike on many issues, and it is not our desire to press for conformity.
My journey to becoming a bright started long ago. I have always been skeptical and inquisitive. So when my questions about god or the bible were unanswered or answered with, "God works in mysterious ways," I would walk away frustrated, angry and dejected. As I became more educated I learned of many other religions and many other ways to view the world. With this knowledge I was forced conclude, they all can't be correct.
So who was right? Talk to a Christian and they will tell you, they have the one true path to God. Ask a Muslim, they will tell you that they have the one true path, etc.... This was no help either. So I read the bible, and the more I read, the more I was aghast at the cruelty and vengeance of God in the Old Testament. But when you are dead in the Old Testament, that was it. The New Testament God, while he has a great many lessons to teach, wants to punish you forever if you choose not to believe. This did not sound like a God of love to me.
All of this led me to become an agnostic. I felt that I could not prove whether god exists or not. Nor could anyone else for that matter. So agnosticism seemed the correct decision.
Then Amendment 2 (www.missouricures.com) became a huge issue in our state. I am a proponent and a staunch advocate for all forms of stem cell research, and was a member of the Missouri Coalition For Life Saving Cures. I would argue with opponents, and the one constant attack on the research was that it was against God's will. I would ask, how do they know? Former Senator and Episcopal Minister John Danforth, says otherwise. Of course I would ask Senator Danforth the same question.
I could not understand how one could make that argument, when they can not prove that God even exists. They were arguing on faith. All other arguments are easily countered because of science. This attack by the religious on the potential cures that could from stem cell research, was the tipping point for me. I began to read and study once again, and this time I read a book, called the God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins, and The End Of Faith by Sam Harris, Atheism, A Case Against God by George Smith, and many many more.
The more I read, the brighter I became. The more knowledge I consumed about astronomy, biology, physics, geology, etc..the less and less the probability of the existence of god became. I became a bright, because my worldview does not include any supernatural or mystical elements. If you want to believe in the supernatural,that is your choice, just don't try to legislate it.
Very interesting to me, an older person writes this:
quote:
I've always been an extremely vocal and unapologetic atheist, but I've also always recognised that to be so isn't easy for everyone. The anti-atheist prejudice is real, and in some areas quite vicious. So I'll wear the shirt as an expression of solidarity with those people more than as a personal expression of belief (or lack of) And also because I agree with Richard when he says, "We need to stand up and be counted, so that the demographically savvy culture will come to reflect our tastes and our views. That in turn makes it easier for the next generation of atheists."
Those of us who grew up in the relatively enlightened post-war era, in which religion was very much in retreat in the west, have been complacent. That has allowed the madness to take root and thrive again. No more complacency. This is worth shouting about.
Obviously you can see that prejudice goes both ways, but certainly people - especially young people - shouldn't be scared to be open as athiests. These people need support, just like gay people did. Even though there are many obnoxious and supercilious atheists, like Dawkins, they are right that kids like this deserve better. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
It does seem like things have gone backwards in recent years, too, which is possibly why my experiences have been so different. And of course, it is true that in many places in the world, "coming out" like this would be extremely serious. People get the death penalty for converting to Christianity in some countries, and I'm sure it's true for atheism, as well.
You'll be happy to know, Geologist, that I've put this post on my blog. You can also get a Scarlet "A" to put on your own, here.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
Judging from some of the confusion on this thread, you may want to rephrase your statements for those not familiar with <>, the not-equal operator from Pascal.
How about actually pointing out some of the "confusion," or perhaps making an argument?
I was hoping that Mousethief would clarify things himself, but it looks to me like he is saying that being gay shouldn't be against the Boy Scouts' stated rules (though obviously the Scouts themselves believe otherwise), but that atheism was obviously against the Boy Scout oath any way you slice it.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to do a "we're-so-much-smarter-than-you" bit. I just thought the Pascal reference was a little obscure.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
God, I hate the term "bright". If you need proof that atheists can be just as stuck-up as Christians, there it is. It has a twang of 1984 about it too. I understand the circle-the-wagons mentality, but if you're trying to show that you're an integral part of society and just like folks, picking a word that says "we're smart and you're stupid" isn't terribly, well, bright. "Fight prejudice with prejudice" so seldom achieves good effects.
I agree that making life hell (or even purgatory) for atheists whether young or old is not acceptable behaviour. Can't we all just get along? Having a close family member (stepson) who is an atheist, I try to speak out for atheists, particularly against the idea that they can't be good moral people. Everybody has the right to decide for himself (or herself) what they believe. (Yes, I know, some of you will say you don't "decide" but let's not do semantics, eh?)
[ 05. August 2007, 19:17: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
God, I hate the term "bright". If you need proof that atheists can be just as stuck-up as Christians, there it is. It has a twang of 1984 about it too. I understand the circle-the-wagons mentality, but if you're trying to show that you're an integral part of society and just like folks, picking a word that says "we're smart and you're stupid" isn't terribly, well, bright. "Fight prejudice with prejudice" so seldom achieves good effects.
I agree that making life hell (or even purgatory) for atheists whether young or old is not acceptable behaviour. Can't we all just get along? Having a close family member (stepson) who is an atheist, I try to speak out for atheists, particularly against the idea that they can't be good moral people. Everybody has the right to decide for himself (or herself) what they believe. (Yes, I know, some of you will say you don't "decide" but let's not do semantics, eh?)
I agree about "Bright." But people act stupidly in a million ways (ironic, huh?).
We just have to try to look past the attitudes and behavior of Dawkins et al. to get to the real meat of the issue. It's that old problem of polarization, again; there really are two different worlds at the moment - and I mean vastly different. Religious people are considered odd around here; I always wonder whether or not I should wear my cross to job interviews, or at work.
I think all people "decide" what to believe, BTW; how could anybody not go through a process of coming to their own worldview and philosophy?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
I was hoping that Mousethief would clarify things himself, but it looks to me like he is saying that being gay shouldn't be against the Boy Scouts' stated rules (though obviously the Scouts themselves believe otherwise), but that atheism was obviously against the Boy Scout oath any way you slice it.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to do a "we're-so-much-smarter-than-you" bit. I just thought the Pascal reference was a little obscure.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Apologies....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
I was hoping that Mousethief would clarify things himself, but it looks to me like he is saying that being gay shouldn't be against the Boy Scouts' stated rules (though obviously the Scouts themselves believe otherwise), but that atheism was obviously against the Boy Scout oath any way you slice it.
I was saying that I don't see how being gay precludes being "morally straight" (or vice versa). I think it's apparent that being an atheist precludes being "reverent" and doing one's "duty to God."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Apologies....
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
I was saying that I don't see how being gay precludes being "morally straight" (or vice versa). I think it's apparent that being an atheist precludes being "reverent" and doing one's "duty to God."
Thanks, both of you.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
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