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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Pope: Other denominations not true churches
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
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quote:
Originally posted by recidite_plebians:
It's true - they love newcomers. It's the born-and-bred who then develop a mind of their own

Absolutely. It's not as though the theologian arguably most influential on Vatican II (John Henry Newman), one of the leaders of English politically radical Catholicism (Laurence Bright) and some leading 20th century Catholic philosophers (Geach, Anscombe, Dummett) were received as adults. No 'mind of their own', any of them. [Roll Eyes]

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insert amusing sig. here

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recidite_plebians
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quote:
Originally posted by Vesture, Posture, Gesture:
"A hypocrite, a careerist, aloof, ignorant, and as far from God as it is humanly possible to be."

I think that is completely unfounded and an utterly unfair analysis of the current Pope.

I suggest reading his work.

I couldn't characterise the "catholic" response to criticism any better than what has just been illustrated: fingers in ears singing "la la la la lah I'm not listening".

I stated quite clearly. I was baptised and confirmed in the RCC. I did my "rhets and divs". I have read more of "Daz Panzer Kardinal" than you give me credit for, starting with "The Ratzinger Report" and including a lot of his lesser-read academic papers found throgh ATHENS, and I am not ignorant about theology, philosophy, or liturgy and I also know enough about canon law to at least have an informed argument on it. I don't claim to be an expert, but I do claim to know the Catholic faith.

So I say again:

"A hypocrite, a careerist, aloof, ignorant, and as far from God as it is humanly possible to be."

Stick your fingers in your ears and "la la lah" all you want. It doesn't make it any less true. Case in point: denouncing anyone who doesn't subject themselves to his authority as not belonging to a "church". It's a pity it ignores Matt 18:20 "wherever two or more of you are gathered in my name, there I am". I don't recall that particular passage as saying "wherever two or more of you subject yourselves to the authority of an aggrandised and pompous civil service made up of career politicians in cassocks..."

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El Greco
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I felt very uncomfortable when people suggested that recidite_plebians (strange handle... what does it mean? Sounds Latin, but I don't know any...) should read what Pope Benedict wrote in his books implying that this would somehow make him change his mind, that he was not well-informed before he made that comment. What's that supposed to mean? Everybody here is entitled to his own opinions on religious matters, especially if it's about his own tradition...

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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recidite_plebians
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
quote:
Originally posted by recidite_plebians:
It's true - they love newcomers. It's the born-and-bred who then develop a mind of their own

Absolutely. It's not as though the theologian arguably most influential on Vatican II (John Henry Newman), one of the leaders of English politically radical Catholicism (Laurence Bright) and some leading 20th century Catholic philosophers (Geach, Anscombe, Dummett) were received as adults. No 'mind of their own', any of them. [Roll Eyes]
They used their own minds to "opt in" as it were. Fair enough on their part.

My point was that the second you find yourself in conflict with the authority of the church - perhaps because you are divorced, or have married a divorcee, or feel the need to use contraception, or have a sexual relationship outside of marriage, for example that is when you feel the full force of the self-rightous condescention, the lack of compassion, and the hostility of the "do as you are told no questions and no excpetions" attitude that leaves so many of us out in the cold and seeing Catholicism for what it is.

I could debate the finer points of theology on all of the issues I have used as an example, but they illustrate quite nicely how when you find yourself not quite ticking all of the "good little obedient catholic" boxes you get treated as an outcast, a piece of defective rubbish, mentally disordered, or in most cases just a threat to their authority that is best dismissed than engaged.

That might better illustrate the (obvious) meaning of the quote you chopped down so as to take out of context.

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Shadowhund
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quote:
Originally posted by recidite_plebians:
quote:
Originally posted by Vesture, Posture, Gesture:
"A hypocrite, a careerist, aloof, ignorant, and as far from God as it is humanly possible to be."

I think that is completely unfounded and an utterly unfair analysis of the current Pope.

I suggest reading his work.

I couldn't characterise the "catholic" response to criticism any better than what has just been illustrated: fingers in ears singing "la la la la lah I'm not listening".

I stated quite clearly. I was baptised and confirmed in the RCC. I did my "rhets and divs". I have read more of "Daz Panzer Kardinal" than you give me credit for, starting with "The Ratzinger Report" and including a lot of his lesser-read academic papers found throgh ATHENS, and I am not ignorant about theology, philosophy, or liturgy and I also know enough about canon law to at least have an informed argument on it. I don't claim to be an expert, but I do claim to know the Catholic faith.

So I say again:

"A hypocrite, a careerist, aloof, ignorant, and as far from God as it is humanly possible to be."

Stick your fingers in your ears and "la la lah" all you want. It doesn't make it any less true. Case in point: denouncing anyone who doesn't subject themselves to his authority as not belonging to a "church". It's a pity it ignores Matt 18:20 "wherever two or more of you are gathered in my name, there I am". I don't recall that particular passage as saying "wherever two or more of you subject yourselves to the authority of an aggrandised and pompous civil service made up of career politicians in cassocks..."

Of course, recidite_plebians simply asserts that Ratzinger is a "hypocrite, careerist, etc. etc." without the slighest shred of evidence. I suppose that says more about "recidite" and his or her Rage Against Ratzinger than it does about Ratzinger himself.

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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fisher
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A semi-tangent that picks up on a few comments earlier.

Most organisations nowadays exist in awe and terror of the media. The RCC seems to almost revel in bad publicity. If they felt such a document was needed for internal discipline, anyone else would have wrapped it up in a lot of careful explanation and expressions of goodwill to soften the blow; perhaps with the Pope meeting a bunch of religious leaders or something.

In some ways, it's quite refreshing to have such a pithily unspun church. But is the - presumably important - aim of attracting doubters to the Church really helped by throwing media management out of the window and appearing so uncompromising?

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"Down, down, presumptuous human reason!" But somehow they found out I was not a real bishop at all G. K. Chesterton

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GoodCatholicLad
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quote:
Originally posted by recidite_plebians:

[qb] [QUOTE]


I had hopes for this pope, but it seems he is just like the rest. A hypocrite, a careerist, aloof, ignorant, and as far from God as it is humanly possible to be.

If he's all these things and more why do you give a fiddler's fuck what he thinks?

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All you have is right now.

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cor ad cor loquitur
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Recidite is a plural imperative. It means "Fall away!" or "Lapse!" or "Come to naught!"

Plebians isn't Latin, as far as I know. Maybe it's supposed to be English. "Fall away, rabble!"

RP, my struggle with your post is simply that I don't know any Catholics who have been so violently suppressed as you describe. Plenty of Catholics use contraceptives. There are gay Catholics and Catholics who have gay children. There are controversial theologians who haven't been excommunicated or silenced. Many people who go to Mass every Sunday will admit (ruefully, sometimes) that they haven't been to confession in a long time.

FCB said something profound about this. Catholicism, he said, is reasonably strict about the letter of the law. But it is surprisingly loose about who can belong. The strict definition of a "good Catholic" can be known -- you read the Catechism or the posts of some of our more conservative brethren. But you can go some distance from this and still be Catholic, and still be accepted by the Church.

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Quam vos veritatem interpretationis, hanc eruditi κακοζηλίαν nuncupant … si ad verbum interpretor, absurde resonant. (St Jerome, Ep. 57 to Pammachius)

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
How can such inward energy direction and osession do anything to help The Cause™ of Christianity? Has it ever? Seems to me you lot haven't learnt anything.

Yeah, we haven't achieved the secular serenity of politics and diplomacy yet...
But it's not an excuse, is it?
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Laura
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quote:
Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:
Plebians isn't Latin, as far as I know. Maybe it's supposed to be English. "Fall away, rabble!"

"Plebians" isn't English either. The English would be "plebeians" or "plebs". The Latin is plebs, plebis f. -- the plebeians, the common people.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Triple Tiara

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I sometimes think these documents come from Rome to coax various people to show their true colours - as many have done on this thread.

We have done this theme over and over in my brief 2 and a bit years on the Ship, so I do not have much to add -

..... except to say that I may be a hypocrite, ignorant, and as far from God as it is humanly possible to be (as r-p alleged the clergy all are "to a man") but I protest - I am not a careerist.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Myrrh
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quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Meh - if the next Pope is Peter II then I'm gonna set up a really big schism which will take 50% of the church's population and I'll declare myself pope!

When I first heard of that prophesy, I imagined that the list ends there because the Orthodox and the Catholic Church would come into a union. Of course, this could be a valid hypothesis were the prophesies real... Thankfully, our generation will live to find that out [Yipee]
I thought it would be due to the information age through the spread of knowledge, when enough Roman Catholics would see the papal claims for what they are, a hidebound example of the doctrine of man and precisely that which Christ spoke against being made the ecclesiology of the Church - "it shall not be so among you".

Myrrh

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and thanks for all the fish

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Meh - if the next Pope is Peter II then I'm gonna set up a really big schism which will take 50% of the church's population and I'll declare myself pope!

When I first heard of that prophesy, I imagined that the list ends there because the Orthodox and the Catholic Church would come into a union. Of course, this could be a valid hypothesis were the prophesies real... Thankfully, our generation will live to find that out [Yipee]
I thought it would be due to the information age through the spread of knowledge, when enough Roman Catholics would see the papal claims for what they are, a hidebound example of the doctrine of man and precisely that which Christ spoke against being made the ecclesiology of the Church - "it shall not be so among you".

Myrrh

Ah - I see what's happening here, rather than have a serious discussion, this is going to become a thread about how evil the catholic church is! [Snore]

Wake me when you get to the baby eating!

Max

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Comper's Child
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It's perfectly ridiculous to call the Roman Church evil. But Benedict brings this stuff on - as has the Church for centuries. Why at this point in time does this opinion have to be re-stated so forcefully?

In my, probably heretical, mind the Church is so much bigger and I am not convinced that Rome is perfectly free from all error any more than I am of my own church.

So I agree there's no point in just hurling stones there are beams enough to go around for all eyes.

[ 11. July 2007, 19:27: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Maybe, Max, it's just a signal that all the reasonable and serious observations that can be made on the subject have been made and that the rabid anti-Catholics then inevitably take over the thread (I'm getting images of Night of the Living Dead). Sad, really.
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Archimandrite
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People really don't like being told they're wrong, do they?

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"Loyal Anglican" (Warning: General Synod may differ).

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Comper's Child
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quote:
Originally posted by Archimandrite:
People really don't like being told they're wrong, do they?

That's an excellent point here. The question is who gets to say what's wrong? I think Lietuvos is right - how many times can this be beaten into a dead horse?
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Max.
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Compers Child - this is in response to you:

Right firstly - this isn't an opinion. This is what the church teaches, it's not Benedict's personal opinion (although he probably does agree with it), this is what the church teaches and all the church is doing is reaffirming that teaching. Setting things straight, it's basically saying "This is where we stand, just in case you forgot"

I have no idea why the church is reaffirming it at this point, My awfully uneducated guess would probably link it to the Old Mass indult which has also been put into place very recently. Possibly reaffirming traditional church teaching and creating the indult at the same sort of time might be to attract schismatic-catholics who left the church because they felt the Catholic Church was too liberal back into the mainstream... I don't know.

I also do believe that Christ's Church is much larger than the Catholic Church on it's own and I don't think Benedict is saying that it's not. The Holy Father is saying that there are differences between Non-Catholic Churches and Catholic Churches, they teach different things.

Non Catholic Churches and Catholic Churches are different, if they we would all be Catholic!
[brick wall]

My hero Cardinal Walter Kasper has stated recently:

quote:
declaration "does not say that Protestant Churches are not churches, but that they are not churches in the proper sense, that is they are not churches in the way the Catholic Church understands the word church".

In any case, he said, Protestant churches "do not want to be churches in the sense of the Catholic Church", because they have different ideas of what the church and its ministers should be.



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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I never cease to be amazed at the way in which so many flap around and squawk when the Pope issues a statement indicating a Catholic understanding of the Catholic Church. I don't care whether the Pope thinks my best shot at salvation is inside the RCC - if he didn't, he'd be a pretty namby-pamby evangelist for his church.


That put it better than I did.

Follow-up question: why people go round the bend that RCs won't give non-RCs communion. If I wanted the receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church, I would become a Roman Catholic. The Bishop of Rome and I aren't on the same page with regards to Holy Communion (we're not even in the same book).

I can just about get through a Roman Catholic wedding without being utterly cast down at not going to the rail (er, station).

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GoodCatholicLad
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I think when Catholicism looses it's Protestantism it becomes authoritarian, when Protestantism looses it's Catholicism it becomes chaos.
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Shadowhund
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I never cease to be amazed at the way in which so many flap around and squawk when the Pope issues a statement indicating a Catholic understanding of the Catholic Church. I don't care whether the Pope thinks my best shot at salvation is inside the RCC - if he didn't, he'd be a pretty namby-pamby evangelist for his church.


That put it better than I did.

Follow-up question: why people go round the bend that RCs won't give non-RCs communion. If I wanted the receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church, I would become a Roman Catholic. The Bishop of Rome and I aren't on the same page with regards to Holy Communion (we're not even in the same book).

I can just about get through a Roman Catholic wedding without being utterly cast down at not going to the rail (er, station).

What's even stranger is that most of the outrage over the evil of closed communion is that most Anglican Church, included TEC, officially practiced some form of closed communion up until the late 60s or early 70s that prohibited most all Protestant Christians from receiving communion. And that changed from what would become a typical pattern. Priests and bishops defied the official rule and dialogued, and dialogued, and whined, and complained, until Lambeth Conference and the General Convention directed open communion among the baptized.

Open communion among the baptized is in itself a novelty in the Christian world. Yet somehow, people seem to think that it has always been this way, and it's only because of the eeeevill careerist Pope that the Catholic Church has this hidebound rule. In this case, Benedict is only following the constant discipline (doctrine?) of the Church which he has received from his predecessors.

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I think that Anglo-Catholics, at least, may get exercised about the (Not) Receiving Holy Communion thing because we believe pretty much what our Roman brethren believe about the Mass. I think Anglican and Lutheran Catholics are more likely to feel hurt or dismayed about Rome's attitude than all the rest of the Reformation bunch who simply reject "the whore of Babylon and all her nefarious ways" (or whatever). As for myself, I wish things were different, but I have to respect the discipline of the RCC and I still see the Holy Father as our chief pastor, notwithstanding our imperfect unity. By the same token, as I see it, even if some of us can't fully accept some aspect of the magisterium that touches something about which we feel strongly, we nonetheless should strive to be in obedience to the Holy See as much as that may be possible given our inability to make a formal submission to the papal discipline.

Sorry, I know that's awkwardly put. I'm sure some of my fellow Anglicans will be along straightaway to beat me over the head and yell at me.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
As a Baptist, I'm not interested in any institutional "reunion" (whereby either one side wins or both are replaced by some central compromise authority), but rather some sort of "reconciliation" whereby the Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations agree to treat each other "like two Baptist churches treat each other", which in my view operates on three levels:

1) acknowledgement of the others' right to exist,
2) cessation of the statements designed to force the other under your control,
3) occasionally cooperating in joint endeavors

(and a fourth would be: 4) agreeing to play each other in recreational softball and basketball leagues..) :-)

To summarize, some sort of agreement that the "real enemy" is not each other.

In practice, isn't this what happens anyway on the level of the individual parishes?
quote:
Originally moaned by Rossweisse:
Ho-hum...same old tired exclusivist history-ignoring bigoted crap. So lovable Pope Benny drops the mask and lets The Rat pop back out of his hole -- who's really surprised?

If any Christian body has the right to claim the label One True Church -- and I don't believe that to be the case -- it would be the Orthodoxen, not the RCs. Where are they in his calculations?

It seems to me that Benedict & Co. really need to get over themselves, and their severe collective case of cognitive dissonance.

[Roll Eyes] Yes, because the Roman Catholics are so much more exclusivist than the Anglo-Catholics who separate the Christian world into First-Class Christians Who Have The Apostolic Succession And Valid Sacraments And Who Are Therefore Catholics With A Large C, and Second-Class Christians without these things such as Free Church Protestants ...

Not to mention the near-universal Christian exclusivism which separates the world into Christians, who are RIGHT about God, and everyone else who isn't (although they may have some hints or glimmerings of the truth).

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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chadevan
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L.S.K.:
I've no interest in beating you over the head, but am genuinely curious about this line of reasoning. If you feel the Pope is your chief pastor and that you are bound to obey him as best you can, why are you Anglo-Catholic as opposed to Roman Catholic?

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Shadowhund
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think that Anglo-Catholics, at least, may get exercised about the (Not) Receiving Holy Communion thing because we believe pretty much what our Roman brethren believe about the Mass. I think Anglican and Lutheran Catholics are more likely to feel hurt or dismayed about Rome's attitude than all the rest of the Reformation bunch who simply reject "the whore of Babylon and all her nefarious ways" (or whatever). As for myself, I wish things were different, but I have to respect the discipline of the RCC and I still see the Holy Father as our chief pastor, notwithstanding our imperfect unity. By the same token, as I see it, even if some of us can't fully accept some aspect of the magisterium that touches something about which we feel strongly, we nonetheless should strive to be in obedience to the Holy See as much as that may be possible given our inability to make a formal submission to the papal discipline.

Sorry, I know that's awkwardly put. I'm sure some of my fellow Anglicans will be along straightaway to beat me over the head and yell at me.

I think that basically sums up Anglican attitudes I remember.

Here's an interesting response from the Church Society .

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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Archimandrite
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think that Anglo-Catholics, at least, may get exercised about the (Not) Receiving Holy Communion thing because we believe pretty much what our Roman brethren believe about the Mass

Two points emerge from this, I think:

i. What about Confession (i.e. not every RC could receive at every Mass either)?

ii. What about Obligation (and the linked question of Spiritual Communion in situations where i. might be the case)?

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Matt Black

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The reference to the CDF formerly being known as the Inquisition is a bit of a giveaway to the attitude of the piece...

[reply to JArthur Crank]

[ 11. July 2007, 20:25: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by JArthurCrank:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
[qb] I think that basically sums up Anglican attitudes I remember.

Here's an interesting response from the Church Society .

No doubt the Phelps will be along with their views as to why the Pope is intolerent [Smile]

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
declaration "does not say that Protestant Churches are not churches, but that they are not churches in the proper sense, that is they are not churches in the way the Catholic Church understands the word church".

In any case, he said, Protestant churches "do not want to be churches in the sense of the Catholic Church", because they have different ideas of what the church and its ministers should be.


But what makes the Roman Catholic Church arbiter of what is a church in the proper sense. If he had said in "our" sense I could have agreed but the use of the word "proper" implies that somehow the Roman Catholic Church has the right to define what is "proper" and what is "improper".

In the end I would maintain it is not even up to all Christians but from the point of view it is up to all English speakers to decide what the "proper sense" of the word "church" is.

Jengie

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Max.
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Proper in the sense that the Catholic Church has true unbroken apostolic succession, 7 sacraments, a three-fold ministry order and a continuous chain of papal authority since the Apostle Peter.
Proper being the Catholic Church and other churches are not.

Max

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Myrrh
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Meh - if the next Pope is Peter II then I'm gonna set up a really big schism which will take 50% of the church's population and I'll declare myself pope!

When I first heard of that prophesy, I imagined that the list ends there because the Orthodox and the Catholic Church would come into a union. Of course, this could be a valid hypothesis were the prophesies real... Thankfully, our generation will live to find that out [Yipee]
I thought it would be due to the information age through the spread of knowledge, when enough Roman Catholics would see the papal claims for what they are, a hidebound example of the doctrine of man and precisely that which Christ spoke against being made the ecclesiology of the Church - "it shall not be so among you".

Myrrh

Ah - I see what's happening here, rather than have a serious discussion, this is going to become a thread about how evil the catholic church is! [Snore]

Wake me when you get to the baby eating!

Max

?

It was a follow on from the 'last pope prophecy'. Where is the rabid hate, evil catholic church etc. you attribute to me in this post?

Why are you so defensive about this particular rule of the Church's ecclesiology if not that Christ contradicts all papal claims in it?

So, what does it matter what the RCC/Pope Benedict thinks of other Churches since by Christ's description the RCC is not the Church He founded?


Myrrh

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GoodCatholicLad
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Proper in the sense that the Catholic Church has true unbroken apostolic succession, 7 sacraments, a three-fold ministry order and a continuous chain of papal authority since the Apostle Peter.
Proper being the Catholic Church and other churches are not.

Max

Max locuta est, causa finita est.

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the coiled spring
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quote:
Proper being the Catholic Church and other churches are not
What an arrogant and blinkered statement, can you prove it. Also there is a very high chance that each one of us is part of the apostolic succession.The laying of hands did not just go straight to Rome, there were other disciples beside Peter who went out. The laying of hands went with them and has come down through the years to us. That need not have come through Rome or in fact Canterbury.

[ 11. July 2007, 21:26: Message edited by: the coiled spring ]

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Myrrh
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quote:
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Proper in the sense that the Catholic Church has true unbroken apostolic succession, 7 sacraments, a three-fold ministry order and a continuous chain of papal authority since the Apostle Peter.
Proper being the Catholic Church and other churches are not.

Max

Max locuta est, causa finita est.
Matthew 20:24-26 (King James Version)


24And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.

25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;


Christus locuta est, causa finita est.

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TubaMirum
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See, this is one of the benefits to being gay. We're already well aware that the Pope has no use on earth for us and would never expect it to be any other way.... [Razz]
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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
But what makes the Roman Catholic Church arbiter of what is a church in the proper sense. If he had said in "our" sense I could have agreed but the use of the word "proper" implies that somehow the Roman Catholic Church has the right to define what is "proper" and what is "improper".

Oh dear! Has it not occurred to you that the term "proper" (or proprio in the language of the definitive text) means the precisely that. Surely in an internal document the Church is entitled to define its own terms: including but not limited to what it means when it uses the term Church.

quote:
In the end I would maintain it is not even up to all Christians but from the point of view it is up to all English speakers to decide what the "proper sense" of the word "church" is.

Jengie

Look the key here is to understand what the Catholic Church means when it uses the term "Church" and to ensure that when you hear the word, or read it, from a Catholic source, you are not misled into believing that something is being said that isn't. If you believe that the Church is an indispensable part of the plan of salvation and that Church in that sense means the visible eucharistic communion which subsists in the Catholic Church, then it is only proper that you use that word carefully and accurately. That's what's going on here, alongside a desire to ensure that there is no doubt in Catholic circles that the notion of the Church subsisting in the Catholic Church implies a close identification with the Catholic Church, not merely some kind of "its all over the place and it is certainly here" ecclesiology.

[ 11. July 2007, 21:40: Message edited by: Trisagion ]

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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hatless

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Trisagion said:
quote:
Oh dear!
and
quote:
Look
and went on, as far as I can see, to say again precisely the sort of thing Jengie was objecting to. And which I object to, as well.

Subsists is a fudge word, but that apart you are basically saying that something indispensable to salvation is the RCC. 'Is' is only more or less, but more more than less.

Have I got that right?

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by chadevan:
L.S.K.:
I've no interest in beating you over the head, but am genuinely curious about this line of reasoning. If you feel the Pope is your chief pastor and that you are bound to obey him as best you can, why are you Anglo-Catholic as opposed to Roman Catholic?

As a former parish priest of mine used to say "Which chamber of horrors do you want to go to?" Actually, he was referring to liturgical horrors, but the point is nonetheless well taken in respect to polity and practice. Neither the Anglican nor the Roman Catholic churches are perfect. Indeed, there's plenty I find pretty dismal about both of 'em. However, at the end of the day, as I state in my previous post, my unwillingness to come into full and formal communion with the See of Rome is to do with one issue of the magisterium that is personally very salient for me. In the context of this particular discussion, that's all I want to say about it.

However, unlike some persons who reject any of the teachings of the RCC, I'm willing to acknowledge the possibility that I could be in error. I also acknowledge the possibility that neither my view/position nor that of the magisterium may be entirely right. I also entertain the possibility that my perspective might change or that the balance of circumstances might develop to a conclusion in which I might seek reception into the RCC. I don't really expect the RCC to change her position in my lifetime (if ever -- they could be right about the matter, after all), though it is possible that the emphasis and pastoral approach might further evolve during my remaining years. Hence my view toward my relationship to the RCC remains open, with no possibility foreclosed.

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fisher
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[ETA: reply to Hatless]

If I understand all of this, RC doctrine is that the fact that the RCC exists somewhere or other is necessary for salvation. Not that the RCC is the only church body that can legitimately offer the hope of salvation to its members.

You may very well think that this is rubbish. (I've never managed to get my head round any ecclesiology more complex than a sort of primitive communitarian congregationalism - it seems a barmy subject to waste time worrying about to me!) But is it as offensive as it sounds on first hearing? I hope not.

[ 11. July 2007, 22:23: Message edited by: fisher ]

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"Down, down, presumptuous human reason!" But somehow they found out I was not a real bishop at all G. K. Chesterton

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hatless

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Trisagion said that quite the opposite, that the essential-for-salvation-church isn't some all over the place but definitely in the RC church, but that it is, more or less, the same thing.

It's all second-guessing God; that's what irks me. God will save whoever God pleases to save, and will not be bound by the latest generation of theologians in the RCC.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
See, this is one of the benefits to being gay. We're already well aware that the Pope has no use on earth for us and would never expect it to be any other way.... [Razz]

Yes, but damn it, I'm a straight, Anglo-Catholic male who believes in seven sacraments. On top of that, I believe 100% of what the RCC teaches about 6 of those 7 sacraments. I believe a good 90% of what it teaches on Holy Orders. It hurts a little that the RCC lumps me in with all the rest of the 2 or less sacrament accepting, memorialist believing, congregationalists [Smile] . I still hold out hope that one day the Pope will at least...at least...allow me to receive the sacraments at a Roman Catholic Church.

Sadly, it is not the case. The Pope requires complete submission. I am not prepared to do that. Ecumenical dialogue is fairly pointless at this point. It is sufficient for us to check back every few years to make sure our views haven't changed. The Pope is letting me know his view hasn't changed. So, I will now respond;

Dear Benedict,

I haven't changed my opinion of you either.

Love,

Matins

[ 11. July 2007, 22:33: Message edited by: Matins ]

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
See, this is one of the benefits to being gay. We're already well aware that the Pope has no use on earth for us and would never expect it to be any other way.... [Razz]

Yes, but damn it, I'm a straight, Anglo-Catholic male who believes in seven sacraments.
Damn it. But it doesn't make any difference, does it? [Razz]
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Divine Outlaw
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:

It's all second-guessing God; that's what irks me. God will save whoever God pleases to save, and will not be bound by the latest generation of theologians in the RCC.

This is getting nigh-on-ridiculous. People are attacking a caricature of the RCC straight out of a Chick tract.

The RCC has one of the most 'open' positions on the salvation of people beyond its own bounds (and, for that matter, the bounds of the Christian faith) of any Christian church.

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Beeswax Altar
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[Waterworks] No!

I'm going to have to spend my entire life in the ministry in terror of what TEC decides to do next.

I keep thinking there's got to be another option.

But...there's not [brick wall]

(crossposted with Divine Outlaw Dwarf)

[ 11. July 2007, 22:44: Message edited by: Matins ]

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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hatless

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That's not how I read this
quote:
If you believe that the Church is an indispensable part of the plan of salvation and that Church in that sense means the visible eucharistic communion which subsists in the Catholic Church, then it is only proper that you use that word carefully and accurately. That's what's going on here, alongside a desire to ensure that there is no doubt in Catholic circles that the notion of the Church subsisting in the Catholic Church implies a close identification with the Catholic Church, not merely some kind of "its all over the place and it is certainly here" ecclesiology.
[In response to DoD]

[ 11. July 2007, 22:45: Message edited by: hatless ]

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My crazy theology in novel form

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
[Waterworks] No!

I'm going to have to spend my entire life in the ministry in terror of what TEC decides to do next.

I keep thinking there's got to be another option.

But...there's not [brick wall]

(crossposted with Divine Outlaw Dwarf)

I didn't realize you were a priest. (That's what I'm getting out of your post, anyway - is that right?)

If it gets really crazy, I suppose I could become an Old Catholic or something. That probably doesn't help you much, though. But I have a feeling TEC might actually get a bit more normal going forward; the next generation is different than the last. We just have to wait them out.

Pray for gridlock for the next 10 years or so. That works in politics, so why not the church?

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Laura
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quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
I thought it would be due to the information age through the spread of knowledge, when enough Roman Catholics would see the papal claims for what they are, a hidebound example of the doctrine of man and precisely that which Christ spoke against being made the ecclesiology of the Church - "it shall not be so among you".

Myrrh

[Roll Eyes]

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Divine Outlaw
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Why on earth does 'the [RC] Church is an indispensable part of salvation' imply 'only members of the RCC can be saved'? You do understand that 'the plan of salvation' means God's plan of salvation for all of creation through Jesus Christ, right? Although even if it meant 'God's plan for me', Trisagion's words wouldn't imply Catholic exclusivism. That the RCC existing is an indispensible part of my salvation doesn't entail that I cannot be saved if I am not an RC.

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
quote:
Proper being the Catholic Church and other churches are not
What an arrogant and blinkered statement, can you prove it. Also there is a very high chance that each one of us is part of the apostolic succession.The laying of hands did not just go straight to Rome, there were other disciples beside Peter who went out. The laying of hands went with them and has come down through the years to us. That need not have come through Rome or in fact Canterbury.
It's strange how all those Apostolic Churches today are still in existance and either Catholic or Orthodox

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meow
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I wonder what ecumenical work then means in the eyes of the pope (and the catholics?): talking to (us)
primitive natives and exchanging glass beads? Or trying to convert us to the one true faith?

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