Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Mentally ill students at universities
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pastorgirl: quote: In the UK, students are adults, so the parents can't be informed about behaviour without the student's permission. A university can't force someone to have mental health treatment, and they can't throw someone out for mental health issues due to discrimination risks.
All of this is true in the US as well.
Actually, it's a bit murkier than that. FERPA prevents university officials from releasing anything but directory information to anyone. However, if the parent can demonstrate that they are financially supporting the student (basically, that the student still qualifies as a dependent for tax purposes), then the university can release information about grades, behavior, etc. to the parent. Staff can also share confidential information about the student with other staff members, as long as it's considered somehow necessary to the student's education, which leaves a certain amount of wiggle room. However, campus health and counseling services are not only bound by FERPA, but also by the standard doctor-patient privilege.
Which basically means that most parents can be informed of most everything that happens on campus (since most students are financial dependents) as long as it doesn't happen in the counseling center or student health center, and even then I think there may be exceptions. Practically speaking, since universities tend to encourage students to act as adults, they don't divulge information unless the parent asks (notable exception: automatic parental notification for certain alcohol violations).
-------------------- "It's been a long day without you, my friend I'll tell you all about it when I see you again" "'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
That is **quite** different from here then I think. Partly as the age you can buy alcohol is 18, so you are already considered an adult at 18 in all practical senses here. (why is it 21 over there? Is the USA age of adulthood 21 rather than 18 or just in the area of alcohol? Does that mean you can get married, vote, have several kids etc but not drink?). Grades wouldnt be released to parents at all. It really is just between student and uni. Under 18 though and its a different matter, with 16-18 being a blurred line.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pastorgirl: [qb] In the UK, students are adults, so the parents can't be informed about behaviour without the student's permission. A university can't force someone to have mental health treatment, and they can't throw someone out for mental health issues due to discrimination risks.[/b]
But they could
a) call a GP and ask for a mental health act assessment if they were really concerned (and the police can pick someone up for the same purpose and take them to a place of safety for assessment)
b) chuck the student for academic failure if they weren't meeting the demands of the course.
c) call the police if the student's behaviour was illegal - and in the UK that would include stalking, verbal aggression if it was intimidaitng enough, harrassment of other students, filming people without their permission would be borderline and of course if they thought he was carrying any kind of weapon. (Weapon being defined as anything you carry with that intent, and operationally defined as knife with blade over three inches, batons brass knucles or whatever.) [ 28. June 2007, 22:26: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jengie Jon Believe it or not Moo the only way of knowing who to ask whether his behaviour is bizarre is surveillance or him telling who he has had fixations on.
No, they could have asked his roommates. This interview (which I linked to earlier) makes it clear how much his roommates knew about Cho's behavior. That's how I learned about the stalking.
If a student's behavior raises red flags, it is appropriate to interview the people he lives with, the people he takes classes with, the people he works with. I repeat, this should be done only if some aspect of the student's behavior indicates he could be a danger to himself or others.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Emma.: That is **quite** different from here then I think. Partly as the age you can buy alcohol is 18, so you are already considered an adult at 18 in all practical senses here. (why is it 21 over there? Is the USA age of adulthood 21 rather than 18 or just in the area of alcohol? Does that mean you can get married, vote, have several kids etc but not drink?). Grades wouldnt be released to parents at all. It really is just between student and uni. Under 18 though and its a different matter, with 16-18 being a blurred line.
Why is the drinking age 21? IIRC because Mothers Against Drunk Driving convinced the federal government that there would be fewer drunk driving fatalities if the drinking age were raised from 18 to 21, and the federal government pressured the states to raise the age to 21 by threatening to withhold highway funds. Yes, that does mean that you can do all sorts of things like vote and join the military but not purchase alcohol, as you're considered a legal adult at 18 for most purposes.
Not all universities have automatic parental notification for alcohol violations (and even if they do, it's often for only for certain alcohol violations, such as your third violation, or if you have to seek medical treatment for alcohol poisoning). It's not about the fact that underage drinking is illegal, it's about the fact that every year some student gets drunk and falls off a balcony or jumps out of a window and dies. If the parents of such a student could demonstrate that the university knew that a student had a problem with alcohol (they'd been cited for several alcohol violations) and had done nothing to address it, they could sue.
It's all about the lawsuits. (Oh, and the grades: 'Merican parents will not pay $25-50,000 per year for their kid to go to school and be told that they aren't allowed access to their kid's grades. They get annoyed enough when you tell them they have to sign something before you can talk about their kid's grades with them.)
-------------------- "It's been a long day without you, my friend I'll tell you all about it when I see you again" "'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by welsh dragon
As for producing literature that is "disturbing" or violent, well after the fact , yes you can read something into it. But people like Stephen King or Quentin Tarantino, no doubt both eccentric in their own way, do not have "I am a future mass murderer" inscribed on their foreheads.
Cho's writings bore no resemblance to those of Stephen King. This website has the text of one of Cho's plays. His poems were equally disturbing.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Max.: I've never seen anybody about it but I sometimes find myself in situations where I get depressed - only a couple of months ago I didn't actually leave my room for anything except food, occasional college classes and church services once a week because of depression.
Thankfully I had really good friends who were genuinely worried about me, forced me to get out a bit, stole my alcohol from me and in the end got me to confront my problems! I was acting like a major jerk, I was getting obsessed by really stupid little things in my life which weren't really important yet those little things still make me feel bad about myself and I suppose that I am still only a stones throw away from locking myself in my room once again and not communicating!
My college has no idea about what I went through, I think we have some kind of support unit but I don't know where it is and I doubt that when I was going through it all I would've actually made the effort to go and speak to them, much easier to lay in my bed watching DVDs, listening to Emo Rock and dying my hair strange colours!
Max., have you looked up places to get help during your better times, so you can be prepared if the bad times hit again?
-------------------- I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you? Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
Well, Moo, the point I was making is that just because someone writes about disturbing subject matter it doesn't automatically mean they are a) mentally ill or b) dangerous to themselves or others. The point stands.
Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by saysay: If the parents of such a student could demonstrate that the university knew that a student had a problem with alcohol (they'd been cited for several alcohol violations) and had done nothing to address it, they could sue.
It's all about the lawsuits. (Oh, and the grades: 'Merican parents will not pay $25-50,000 per year for their kid to go to school and be told that they aren't allowed access to their kid's grades. They get annoyed enough when you tell them they have to sign something before you can talk about their kid's grades with them.)
None of that would happen in England. Partly a different culture (parents here seldom contact the university about anything, in my experience, especially to talk about the kid's grades), and partly some very strict confidentiality rules.
BTW, I recall a case that was in the news recently, where the parents of a student who committed suicide sued their (American) university for not letting them know about the student's mental health problems. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.
Amorya
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I wonder if that will change over here in the uk with higher fees and (some) parents paying towards them? It used to be that you could be independent at 18 with a govt grant....
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: quote: Originally posted by Jengie Jon Believe it or not Moo the only way of knowing who to ask whether his behaviour is bizarre is surveillance or him telling who he has had fixations on.
No, they could have asked his roommates. This interview (which I linked to earlier) makes it clear how much his roommates knew about Cho's behavior. That's how I learned about the stalking.
If a student's behavior raises red flags, it is appropriate to interview the people he lives with, the people he takes classes with, the people he works with. I repeat, this should be done only if some aspect of the student's behavior indicates he could be a danger to himself or others.
Moo
Yeh and if students are anything like the lot over here there is a good chance such a student will change "room" pretty frequently as situation breakdown and the finding of "room" mates will only be as good as University record, which was probably updated the last time he had to contact student services which could be as much as nine months ago.
When someone is notorious it is easy to find room mates, former room mates. When they are just an ordinary student the information is just as good as the people providing it, i.e. the students themselves. If they move and don't tell student services, how are student services expected to know?
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ethne Alba: Because.......huge sigh here, don't want to upset the states friends.....over in the UK I think that something could have been done and that young man would have been stopped.
I really doubt anything would have been picked up in the UK. UK students are legally adults, we don't usually have room-mates, many students live off campus for part or all of their degree... I don't think there's much in the UK apart from gun control which would stop this happening here.
My younger brother has a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome. He spends a lot of time alone in his room playing violent computer games, can dress & act in ways that can go from the merely unconventional to the worrying-to-strangers, doesn't socialise much with housemates or anyone else, and can come over as argumentative, combative, and confused. He spent his first year not turning up to any lectures or contact time at all. The university finally noticed when he was thrown out at the end of the year for not sitting any exams at all, but before that then none of this was picked up on. That's at an academically well-ranked UK university. His current uni has been informed of his diagnosis (made since he left the last one), and being within the formal support system he's getting a bit more help. But if someone doesn't want to be picked up - or even doesn't go & camp outside the relevant office waving the right bits of paper & fill in the correct forms in quadruplicate - then no-one will notice & no-one will help.
I read the story Chorister linked to with interest. I think it misses an important point - that if the parents were to have been informed, the student may not have sought any help in the first place. It's already very difficult for students with mental health problems to seek appropriate help because of fears that this will impact on their family, course, or future prospects. Keeing things confidential may well save lives by allowing people to seek help at an earlier stage in in a less formal way.
quote: Originally posted by Doublethink: quote: Originally posted by Pastorgirl: In the UK, students are adults, so the parents can't be informed about behaviour without the student's permission. A university can't force someone to have mental health treatment, and they can't throw someone out for mental health issues due to discrimination risks.
But they could
a) call a GP and ask for a mental health act assessment if they were really concerned (and the police can pick someone up for the same purpose and take them to a place of safety for assessment)
Unlikely. Even if anyone in your department knows about & decides to make that call - and an academic supervisor won't have had any training in how to deal with this - you aren't likely to get a formal mental health act assessment just for the asking. Beisdes which, at some point 'confidentiality issues' will almost certainly be brought up. Unlikely to happen unless someone's actually waving a knife at the lecture theatre, IMO.
b) chuck the student for academic failure if they weren't meeting the demands of the course.
Doesn't help the student, & they don't have to tell anyone why things went so wrong
c) call the police if the student's behaviour was illegal - and in the UK that would include stalking, verbal aggression if it was intimidaitng enough, harrassment of other students, filming people without their permission would be borderline and of course if they thought he was carrying any kind of weapon. (Weapon being defined as anything you carry with that intent, and operationally defined as knife with blade over three inches, batons brass knucles or whatever.)
This is criminal law, not treatment, and surely by this time it's already gone too far. Departments are going to be reluctant to do this without an immediate threat, particularly in fields where a criminal record will effectively destroy future employment prospects (against a background of the increasing prevalence of CRB checks)
quote: Originally posted by Moo: If a student's behavior raises red flags, it is appropriate to interview the people he lives with, the people he takes classes with, the people he works with. I repeat, this should be done only if some aspect of the student's behavior indicates he could be a danger to himself or others.
Nice idea, but what 'red flags' in particular? Welsh Dragon explained earlier why harm is so difficult to predict - and would you really want to disclose details of a student's difficulties to their housemates, who they may not have chosen to live with, may not get on with, and are probably 18-21ish? I don't think this would encourage appropriate help-seeking.
I find this thread title rather threatening. 'Mentally ill students at universities' does not [just] refer to one person, who may or may not have had a diagnosable mental health problem, which may or may not have been the cause of his shooting a lot of people. Students with mental health problems mostly just want to get on with their degrees, the usual student activities, & the rest of life, & might need a bit more support to do that - same as Deaf or wheelchair-using students. If this thread was 'Asian students at universites' with an OP & much discussion about Cho, it would be similarly misleading (I'd guess at my uni there are more students with mental health problems than Asian students, so it would actually be more accurate here).
[code] [ 29. June 2007, 18:39: Message edited by: Duck ]
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Duck: I read the story Chorister linked to with interest. I think it misses an important point - that if the parents were to have been informed, the student may not have sought any help in the first place. It's already very difficult for students with mental health problems to seek appropriate help because of fears that this will impact on their family, course, or future prospects. Keeing things confidential may well save lives by allowing people to seek help at an earlier stage in in a less formal way.
Having seen this situation from a number of angles, the student often has a very good reason for not wanting to contact the parents. To put it bluntly, sometimes the parents are part of the problem and the student may not have confidence they are ready to be part of the solution. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jengie Jon: Yeh and if students are anything like the lot over here there is a good chance such a student will change "room" pretty frequently as situation breakdown and the finding of "room" mates will only be as good as University record, which was probably updated the last time he had to contact student services which could be as much as nine months ago. {snip} When they are just an ordinary student the information is just as good as the people providing it, i.e. the students themselves. If they move and don't tell student services, how are student services expected to know?
AFAIK, students are required to keep the university informed of their current local addresses. In any case, Cho was living in Tech dormitories at least from fall, 2005 until he did the shooting. The university knew where he lived and who his roomates were.
quote: Originally posted by Duck Nice idea, but what 'red flags' in particular? Welsh Dragon explained earlier why harm is so difficult to predict - and would you really want to disclose details of a student's difficulties to their housemates, who they may not have chosen to live with, may not get on with, and are probably 18-21ish? I don't think this would encourage appropriate help-seeking.
It is a fact that a distinguished faculty member threatened to resign unless he was removed from her class. It is also a fact that many women students said they refused to be in a classroom with him any more. I consider these to be red flags. (If you don't consider them to be red flags, do you think the university should allow one student to disrupt the education of quite a few others? I think it would have been appropriate to throw Cho out for interfering with the education of others.)
I did not suggest that the university disclose anything to Cho's roommates. I suggested that they be asked if any behavior of his disturbed or concerned them.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Pastorgirl
Shipmate
# 12294
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Posted
again, so they could do what? Their legal options were severely limited.
Posts: 757 | From: L.A. | Registered: Jan 2007
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flickeringflame
Apprentice
# 12703
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Posted
This is the core problem in UK also. Mentally ill people seem to need to commit a criminal act before the wheels start rolling. Behaviour of an apparently mentally disturbed individual can "disturb" you - at that point it is of no real concern to the authorities.
Posts: 46 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2007
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by flickeringflame: This is the core problem in UK also. Mentally ill people seem to need to commit a criminal act before the wheels start rolling. Behaviour of an apparently mentally disturbed individual can "disturb" you - at that point it is of no real concern to the authorities.
In fact, most of my patients have not committed a criminal act prior to being seen. Usually, they go and see their GP who makes a referral. It is quite a straightforward process.
If someone really doesn't want to be seen, they may get as far as having an assessment for commital under the Mental Health Act before they see a mental health professional. This is because people have civil rights, and the threshold for forcing someone to be assessed or receive treatment is, appropriately, very high (just think about this one).
All sorts of people can act in a way that "disturbs" you. That particular criterion is a bit subjective, isn't it?
Neither does one have to have a mental illness to have a problem getting on with one's professor, and so on. We cannot be sure that, if Cho had had a mental health assassment, he would have received a diagnosis of a treatable mental illness. It is all conjecture and after the fact assumption.
Of course, what happened in Virginia was awful. But I see no reason for automatically assuming that it should have been prevented by either the University or local Mental Health authorities.
Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Josephine: I do wonder, though, about the schools he attended in elementary school and high school. Under IDEA (the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act), schools have an obligation to identify students with disabilities (including mental illness), to determine whether the disability is interfering with the child's ability to acquire a free and appropriate public education, and to provide specially designed instruction, related services, and supports so that the child can receive such an education.
This is the subject of my dissertation, specifically looking at high school students. In NZ, no funding is provided to support students who develop mental illesses. If you have a lifelong disability or an allergy to peanuts, you can get funding and staff get training. Develop a mental illness and the student (and the school) is left hanging in the air. This doesn't gel with the curriculum statements at all, guaranteeing equitable access to education. A student with a lifelong disability will probably have learned coping strategies by the time they start high school - they'll know the drill as far as looking after themselves. The onset of a serious mental illness in adolescence disrupts the student's life far more, and certainly leaves the school searching for options.
It is my observation that it is often down to individual members of staff, who usually don't have training in dealing with mental illness of any kind, to care for these students. They do it out of the goodness of their own hearts, but the outcomes are not always ideal, as it can involve considerable boundary crossing and dual relationships. I'm not talking about sexual boundary crossing or relationships, but the damage it can do to the teacher-student relationship - the reason the student is at school in the first place.
Sectioning refers to the use of section 11 of the Mental Health Act 1985 (in NZ, anyway) to involuntarily commit someone to psychiatric treatment. In NZ this can either be for residential treatment, or more likely these days, for community treatment. It involves rather a lot of paperwork and has to be reviewed regularly - depending on the nature of the sectioning, between fortnightly and monthly.
-------------------- Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
just so I get this one right....... So lots of students go to The Authorities at a uni ( in whatever country) and say We're worried, We're disturbed by this fellow student, This other student frightens us, then Nothing is done? And that's OK?
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by welsh dragon Neither does one have to have a mental illness to have a problem getting on with one's professor, and so on. We cannot be sure that, if Cho had had a mental health assassment, he would have received a diagnosis of a treatable mental illness. It is all conjecture and after the fact assumption.
He did have a mental health assessment in December, 2005. He was adjudged to be a danger to himself, and the court ordered outpatient psychotherapy. He was referred to the Virginia Tech mental health service, which does not accept court referrals because they have no means of enforcing them.
The English department head, who knew of Cho's disruptive behavior in class, almost certainly had no way of knowing this.
One thing I wanted to discuss when I started this thread was that different people at the university had different bits of information. It was neve put together. If it had been, thirty-three people, including Cho, would probably be alive.
Moo [ 30. June 2007, 10:59: Message edited by: Moo ]
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I read that as 'having a problem getting off with one's professor'. Need to get my eyes tested.
I see a link here between joined up thinking in the case of severe mental illness and joined up thinking in the case of muslim extremists possibly operating on campus (big news recently in the UK when lecturers were asked to inform on them). How far does one extend the right to adults (for that is what they are) being given due entitlement to their civil liberties and not being reported to a central establishment for official action, and the civil liberties of all those other adults also studying there whose health, welfare and sometimes lives are put at risk by respecting the freedom of an individual causing concern.
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pastorgirl
Shipmate
# 12294
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Posted
quote: He was referred to the Virginia Tech mental health service, which does not accept court referrals because they have no means of enforcing them.
Again-- that's the key point. They had no legal way to compel treatment, no matter how many people were concerned.
quote: The English department head, who knew of Cho's disruptive behavior in class, almost certainly had no way of knowing this.
One thing I wanted to discuss when I started this thread was that different people at the university had different bits of information. It was neve put together. If it had been, thirty-three people, including Cho, would probably be alive.
This is a good point, and certainly one of the lessons we learned (or whould have learned) from 9/11. But I'm not sure it would have made a difference in this particular case w/o some sort of legal means to compel treatment.
Posts: 757 | From: L.A. | Registered: Jan 2007
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: He did have a mental health assessment in December, 2005. He was adjudged to be a danger to himself, and the court ordered outpatient psychotherapy. He was referred to the Virginia Tech mental health service, which does not accept court referrals because they have no means of enforcing them.
The problem is not anything to do with the university, then, but with the lack of any coherent system of mental health care in this country. The judge ordered something that did not exist, based (presumably) on the recommendation from the mental health professionals that evaluated Cho. Either their recommendation was faulty, or the judge misunderstood it or disregarded it.
Again, the problem wasn't the university. It was that Cho did not get the treatment he needed. If he was so ill that it was judged he wasn't competent to decide whether or not he needed treatment -- if he was found incompetent to make his own medical decisions -- then it's hard to imagine that he was competent to manage his own outpatient therapy. He should not have been ordered into outpatient therapy, but inpatient.
But inpatient care is expensive, and often there are simply not beds available. Maybe there was simply no facility that could provide inpatient care, so the outpatient was ordered as a stopgap? The problem with that, of course, is that no one can enforce outpatient care. But the judge could have appointed a guardian for healthcare for Cho, and made the guardian responsible for making the appointments and seeing to it that Cho went, and reporting to the judge if he didn't. The guardian couldn't enforce the order, but he could let the judge know if the order were being violated.
Instead of talking about how universities could better supervise their adult students, if we want to keep this sort of thing from happening in the future, we need to be talking about how mental health care is provided in this country, or rather about why it's not being provided to those who need it, and how that can be changed.
Having university staff ask students about the behavior of their roommate is not going to fix the problem. The university system isn't what's broken. Asking your state legislators to make mental health care a priority in the state budget, to provide adequate funding for a range of care, and to provide supervision and support to those who need it -- that would address the real problem.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Josephine
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Pastorgirl
Shipmate
# 12294
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Posted
quote: Instead of talking about how universities could better supervise their adult students, if we want to keep this sort of thing from happening in the future, we need to be talking about how mental health care is provided in this country, or rather about why it's not being provided to those who need it, and how that can be changed.
Bingo.
Posts: 757 | From: L.A. | Registered: Jan 2007
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AverageGuyOnTheStreet
Apprentice
# 12501
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Posted
I've never been a risk to anyone other than myself so my experience is probably not relevant to this topic but I have some experience with mental health services at uni (I was diagnosed with depression just before I dropped out).
The biggest issue I had with the counselling services was that I went onto the waiting list in early March and was on for many weeks longer than I was told I would get an appointment by. I had to get bumped up the list because I had got so bad whilst I was waiting. Then the senior tutor at my uni found out that I was feeling suicidal so I was sent home (I don't have a great relationship with my parents so I was living with friends, who happened to be students). I understand his decision but I had just started being able to get help when I was completely uprooted and also my only source of support was my closest friends.
This situation is around in the community too, so it is not a problem I have with university mental health services as such but mental health services in general. I'm back on waiting lists.
What really annoys me though is none of this (though I do feel a little ignored, despite my history), but the way that the media has a tendency to blow things out of all proportion. I feel that the message they are trying to get across is that all mentally ill people are psychotic mass murderers. That is not true, far more are either only a risk to themselves or not a risk to anyone. I agree that some people are a risk to others but it is the exception rather than the norm.
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
I am puzzled by the involvement of the judge. Had Cho been convicted of a crime then? I don't understand...it sounds completely different from anything I've seen in the UK. I've seen people sectioned to hospital, but the only circumstances I've heard of where someone is compelled to undergo therapy is when a crime has already been committed.
As far as the inadequacies of mental health or indeed other health services are concerned, there is a major funding issue. If people wanted to pay more taxes to fund health services, it would be possible to have increased availability of counseling, therapy and so on. There has been an increase in funding for health services generally in the UK, but proportionately less has gone to mental health than other healthcare specialities.
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ethne Alba: just so I get this one right....... So lots of students go to The Authorities at a uni ( in whatever country) and say We're worried, We're disturbed by this fellow student, This other student frightens us, then Nothing is done? And that's OK?
Not quite. Part of the problem that (I think) Moo is getting at is that universities don't have a clearly defined "The Authorities." So Cho's roommates, professors, and the campus police may all have independently received complaints about his behavior, but there wasn't anyone who could put them together and actually do something about Cho's behavior. Although Josephine is also right in that the lack of mental health care in this country may very well have prevented anyone from doing anything particularly useful at all.
-------------------- "It's been a long day without you, my friend I'll tell you all about it when I see you again" "'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by welsh dragon: I am puzzled by the involvement of the judge. Had Cho been convicted of a crime then? I don't understand...it sounds completely different from anything I've seen in the UK. I've seen people sectioned to hospital, but the only circumstances I've heard of where someone is compelled to undergo therapy is when a crime has already been committed.
In Virginia an involuntary commitment to a mental facility can be made only by a judge. I have the impression that the process you call "sectioning" achieves the same result.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
True, but it is done by two doctors and a social worker. The social worker being seen as independent of the medical professionals. Individuals who have been sectioned have the right of appeal, and can employ legal counsel to do so.
If I have it right, the police can pick up someone who is behaving in such a way they appear unsafe - e.g. walking naked down the street and apparently responding to voices noone else can hear - but they then have to arrange an immediate medical evaluation.
People who have been voluntrialy admitted can be detain on a nurses holding power for 5 hours or a doctors holding power for a day - to arrange a section assessment basically - if they pose a threat to themselves or others.
Then there are 72 hour, 28 days and upto six month dententions under the mental health act.
There are also forensic sections but those are different - person would have committed a criminal act, and might well involve a court order. (So if Cho had survived in the UK he might then have been sectioned into a secure hospital like Broadmoor, though there would have been a massive argument about capacity and intent at trial.)
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
So he'd had a mental health assessment, and actually been "sectioned". (Presumably it wasn't the judge doing the assessment then).
So did he have a diagnosis? In the UK, someone being sectioned for treatment would usually go to hospital first off for a full assessment - on the 28 day order. They might be given treatment over this time, probably medication predominantly at first. If they were thought to need further treatment then the 6 month order might be put in place. Psychological input usually follows after (partly because it is more effective when the person has stabilised a bit, partly because of waiting list times), although there is often some degree of psychological input on acute wards.
The major problem doesn't now seem to be that the mental health services and legal system were unaware of a possible problem with Cho. The problem might be instead that having identified the problem, there was not sufficient resource to assess and treat (this is conjectural obviously cos I don't know the details of the case).
I still don't think it would be practical to put troubled university students under the surveillance of their peers. But it might be that your healthcare system needs to be empowered to take better care of people with mental illnesses. (I'd say the same about ours as well, mind). I don't have great in-depth knowledge of the US healthcare sytem, but I do remember that when the Clintons wanted to institute healthcare reforms they met a very high level of opposition. People didn't want their money (and taxes) organised in that way. Neither do people want tougher gun laws - and I have a vague memory of the current President making just this point very early on in the press exposure of the Cho case.
Well, you pays your money and you takes your choice, IMO.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by welsh dragon I still don't think it would be practical to put troubled university students under the surveillance of their peers.
As I have already said twice, I don't either. One of Cho's roommates reported him to someone when he said he might as well kill himself. This is why he was referred to the mental health system in the first place. I am sure that roommate did the right thing, and I presume you agree.
It's as if a student found one of his roommates unconscious for no apparent reason. It would be negligence not to get help for him.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Pastorgirl
Shipmate
# 12294
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Posted
quote: But it might be that your healthcare system needs to be empowered to take better care of people with mental illnesses.
Bingo-- as we've been saying all along.
Posts: 757 | From: L.A. | Registered: Jan 2007
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pastorgirl: quote: But it might be that your healthcare system needs to be empowered to take better care of people with mental illnesses.
Bingo-- as we've been saying all along.
Better still if everyone was more aware of mental illnesses, stopped stigmatising people who suffer from them, and actually cared about them instead of judging them and keeping them at arms length. A very large proportion of students suffer from some forms of mental illnesses either temporarily or long-term and these problems can be aggravated by loneliness and the stress that comes with feeling pressured to perform well.
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AverageGuyOnTheStreet
Apprentice
# 12501
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fauja: quote: Originally posted by Pastorgirl: quote: But it might be that your healthcare system needs to be empowered to take better care of people with mental illnesses.
Bingo-- as we've been saying all along.
Better still if everyone was more aware of mental illnesses, stopped stigmatising people who suffer from them, and actually cared about them instead of judging them and keeping them at arms length. A very large proportion of students suffer from some forms of mental illnesses either temporarily or long-term and these problems can be aggravated by loneliness and the stress that comes with feeling pressured to perform well.
I agree completely.
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Pastorgirl
Shipmate
# 12294
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Posted
As do I, although I'm not sure I'd say "better still." Even when people are very aware of mental illness, compassionate and well-meaning and don't hold people at a distance, it doesn't help all that much if there is no health care available to them. In this case, quite a few people seemed to be quite concerned about Cho, but lacked the legal or other ability to do anything substantive to help him.
In reality, it shouldn't be an either/or proposition. We should indeed be better educated, not isolate or stigmatize mental illness. And we should have adequate funding for mental health care. And we should have legal systems that balance better the need for autonomy and the need to protect the most vulnerable among us, sometimes even from themselves.
Posts: 757 | From: L.A. | Registered: Jan 2007
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pastorgirl: As do I, although I'm not sure I'd say "better still."
Yes, sorry, I meant as well as not instead.
quote: We should indeed be better educated, not isolate or stigmatize mental illness.
I don't claim to be an expert on mental illness and I don't feel particularly obliged to learn a great deal more either, although I would hope I would be willing to listen and learn from someone talking about their own experiences of suffering from mental illness. One thing I do know is that there are many different types of mental illness and plenty of sufferers are good citizens who are no more likely to harm someone than anyone else.
Unfortunately, there are Cho's in this world who don't take personal responsibilty for their own actions and are quite likely to do whatever they do irrespective of whether or not they are allowed to continue their studies. What would have stopped Cho from committing mass genocide in a busy shopping centre? Better gun controls? I'm not sure, but I am convinced that prevention is better than cure; better to get to the root of the problem that prompts the urge to kill other people than to simply remove the means by which people can be killed.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pastorgirl
Shipmate
# 12294
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Posted
quote: Unfortunately, there are Cho's in this world who don't take personal responsibilty for their own actions and are quite likely to do whatever they do irrespective of whether or not they are allowed to continue their studies.
I suspect (although no way to know for sure after the fact) that Cho was incapable of taking personal responsibility for his actions, making it all the more tragic that the system let him down.
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Chorister: I read that as 'having a problem getting off with one's professor'. Need to get my eyes tested.
I see a link here between joined up thinking in the case of severe mental illness and joined up thinking in the case of muslim extremists possibly operating on campus (big news recently in the UK when lecturers were asked to inform on them). How far does one extend the right to adults (for that is what they are) being given due entitlement to their civil liberties and not being reported to a central establishment for official action, and the civil liberties of all those other adults also studying there whose health, welfare and sometimes lives are put at risk by respecting the freedom of an individual causing concern.
Good comparison. I see using compulsion for anyone not already covered by the Mental Health Act (or local equivalent) as analogous to demanding that every single student declaring any faith affiliation be ordered to be report to a police station weekly for interrogation. It would be about as therapeutic to the students, about as helpful in establishing the sort of trust which makes reporting real problems possible, and the 'number needed to treat' ratio would probably be comparable. My right to not be caught in drunken fights is counterbalanced by the right of my fellow students to drink alcohol. My right to ride my bike on campus has to be balanced with the right of other sudents not to be squashed. It's the sort of calculation people make all the time. Sometimes the odds get reconsidered, as with the new English smoking ban but I think any attempt at surveillance comprehensive enough to pick up the next 'Cho' would be completely unbalanced in view of the risks involved.
quote: Originally posted by AverageGuyOnTheStreet: I've never been a risk to anyone other than myself so my experience is probably not relevant to this topic [...]
No, it's much more relevant to a thread called 'Mentally Ill Students at Universities' than discussion of Cho. I've never been a danger to other people either.
It is actually very difficult for concerned friends to get help for someone who is mentally ill to the point that they are a serious suicide risk or not able to minimally look after themselves. It's difficult to get inpatient treatment until someone's actually made a suicide attempt (and often not even then). If you aren't a 'next of kin' you can't ask or be told much, even if you are the primary carer and next of kin are far away knowing nothing (not uncommon for students). It's frightening sometimes to have a friend you know is dangerously ill & needs help & there just isn't anything there even when you do ask for it and they'd accept it. I haven't tried to seek help for someone who was a risk to others - don't know if it would be any better then. But before getting anywhere near compulsion, we need decent voluntary mental health services.
-------------------- 'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: He did have a mental health assessment in December, 2005. He was adjudged to be a danger to himself, and the court ordered outpatient psychotherapy. [...]
One thing I wanted to discuss when I started this thread was that different people at the university had different bits of information. It was neve put together. If it had been, thirty-three people, including Cho, would probably be alive.
Moo
As Welsh Dragon explained, predicting a rare event isn't really possible. Putting together some danger to self + antisocial behaviour could probably describe a lot of people. It would be A Good Thing if they could be offered help, but to go any further you would have to impose coercive 'treatment', surveillance, imprisonment...? on very many people who haven't done more than low-level antisocial behaviour. Even if this was feasible, I don't think it would be desirable.
-------------------- 'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: quote: Originally posted by Jengie Jon: Yeh and if students are anything like the lot over here there is a good chance such a student will change "room" pretty frequently as situation breakdown and the finding of "room" mates will only be as good as University record, which was probably updated the last time he had to contact student services which could be as much as nine months ago. {snip} When they are just an ordinary student the information is just as good as the people providing it, i.e. the students themselves. If they move and don't tell student services, how are student services expected to know?
AFAIK, students are required to keep the university informed of their current local addresses. In any case, Cho was living in Tech dormitories at least from fall, 2005 until he did the shooting. The university knew where he lived and who his roomates were.
quote: Originally posted by Duck Nice idea, but what 'red flags' in particular? Welsh Dragon explained earlier why harm is so difficult to predict - and would you really want to disclose details of a student's difficulties to their housemates, who they may not have chosen to live with, may not get on with, and are probably 18-21ish? I don't think this would encourage appropriate help-seeking.
It is a fact that a distinguished faculty member threatened to resign unless he was removed from her class. It is also a fact that many women students said they refused to be in a classroom with him any more. I consider these to be red flags. (If you don't consider them to be red flags, do you think the university should allow one student to disrupt the education of quite a few others? I think it would have been appropriate to throw Cho out for interfering with the education of others.)
I did not suggest that the university disclose anything to Cho's roommates. I suggested that they be asked if any behavior of his disturbed or concerned them.
Moo
-------------------- 'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
[Sorry - didn't mean to post in bits! How did it do that?]
-------------------- 'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Moo
"Required" and "Does" are two different verbs. Yes students are "required" which actually means every time they contact student services their address is checked.
"Does" is another matter and that only happens if a student is willing to inform. A student who moves many times between contacting student service is unlikely to have an up to date address on the register.
Universities have no enforcement power on this one for a student who might not wish student services to know where they are. Sorry to disillusion you.
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
1. quote: Originally posted by Pastorgirl: I suspect (although no way to know for sure after the fact) that Cho was incapable of taking personal responsibility for his actions, making it all the more tragic that the system let him down.
It depends what you mean by "incapable of taking responsibility". In the UK, the criteria are pretty stringent. That is, if you think that you are surrounded by aliens (because you are a deluded schizophrenic) and you then shoot people, thinking they are aliens, you would be seen as not responsible. Was Cho psychotic? In my limited knowledge of this case, no evidence has been presented to suggest that.
If you are severely learning disabled say, and hurt someone, you might be seen as not capable of understanding what you are doing. But Cho wasn't.
Also, if one had a disease of a physical nature, such as diabetes with a very high blood sugar level, so the balance of one's mind was impaired, one might not be culpable under the law if one's actions were deranged because of a physical illness. But there's no suggestion Cho was physically ill.
Even if someone has an illness like schizophrenia, it would be very unusual if in report writing they would be deemed as not responsible for violent acts, unless they are deluded to the extent described above.
Why specifically do you suppose Cho was not responsible?
quote: Originally posted by me: But it might be that your healthcare system needs to be empowered to take better care of people with mental illnesses
quote: Originally posted by Pastorgirl: Bingo-- as we've been saying all along.
I don't remember anyone else on this thread discussing the tax-to-financing of mental health care, and I can't find it on looking, but I'm glad you share my socialist approach!
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jengie Jon: Required" and "Does" are two different verbs. Yes students are "required" which actually means every time they contact student services their address is checked.
"Does" is another matter and that only happens if a student is willing to inform. A student who moves many times between contacting student service is unlikely to have an up to date address on the register.
Universities have no enforcement power on this one for a student who might not wish student services to know where they are. Sorry to disillusion you.
I live in the town where Virginia Tech is located, and I know for a fact that most students live in the same place for at least an entire semester.
ETA: I gather things are different in Britain.
Moo [ 03. July 2007, 22:44: Message edited by: Moo ]
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: I live in the town where Virginia Tech is located, and I know for a fact that most students live in the same place for at least an entire semester.
IME, most students move several times during the course of their studies, sometimes as many as 2-3 times in a calendar year. More and more services - yes, including teaching and advising - are provided via e-mail and web applications. Snail mail - i.e. a home address - is pretty much obsolete at many institutions. OliviaG
-------------------- "You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
In Blacksburg, the students who live in univeristy dorms sign a housing contract for the semester.
Almost all landlords for rental housing in the town require a lease which runs the length of the semester.
Under the circumstances, anyone who moves will incur a lot of extra expense.
Bear in mind that there are more than twice as many students in this town as there are year-round residents. This may make for an unusual housing situation.
Moo
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
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flickeringflame
Apprentice
# 12703
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Posted
In fact, most of my patients have not committed a criminal act prior to being seen. Usually, they go and see their GP who makes a referral. It is quite a straightforward process.
If someone really doesn't want to be seen, they may get as far as having an assessment for commital under the Mental Health Act before they see a mental health professional. This is because people have civil rights, and the threshold for forcing someone to be assessed or receive treatment is, appropriately, very high (just think about this one). [ 04. July 2007, 00:09: Message edited by: flickeringflame ]
Posts: 46 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2007
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flickeringflame
Apprentice
# 12703
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by flickeringflame: In fact, most of my patients have not committed a criminal act prior to being seen. Usually, they go and see their GP who makes a referral. It is quite a straightforward process.
If someone really doesn't want to be seen, they may get as far as having an assessment for commital under the Mental Health Act before they see a mental health professional. This is because people have civil rights, and the threshold for forcing someone to be assessed or receive treatment is, appropriately, very high (just think about this one).
I don't have to "just think about this one". I know. And it ISN'T a straightforward process in the UK. If you say that, I think you don't have much experience of what it is actually like to deal with a mentally deranged person.
Posts: 46 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2007
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jengie Jon: Universities have no enforcement power on this one for a student who might not wish student services to know where they are. Sorry to disillusion you.
This isn't true in the US. Cho lived on campus, in campus housing, which means that not only did the university know where he lived (they assigned him the space), but also that he couldn't have moved rooms without the university knowing/ approving of the move.
Students who live off-campus are required to supply the university with a valid address. "Address holds" (restrictions on a student's account which prevent them from doing certain things until they confirm/provide a valid address) are fairly common at some universities. Could a student who was planning something devious provide the university with something that seemed like a valid address, and would it take the university a while to realize this? Yes. But it's not the normal state of things.
I've never contacted room-mates to check on a particular student's behavior, but I have chased down students (sometimes students in a different school/college at the same university) because their room-mates were concerned about them.
-------------------- "It's been a long day without you, my friend I'll tell you all about it when I see you again" "'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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