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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Circus: Old English Thread
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
What, then, is meant by "Old English"? If a word came into English from the Romish tongue, but came in before Old English had turned into Middle English, is that not Old English? . [/QB]
We have already talked about this. The answer is "yes".
Any word written in an Old English book, song or other writing is all right in this thread. So words like "plant", which came from Rome (the Old English knew the name of the great kingdom that had ruled the world for more than a thousand years), may be written here.
As long as it appears in an Old English writing, or the look-up books say that it was in Old English, it is good. And words from the Danes that settled England in Old English times are also good. Otherwise, we couldn't even say "they", "their" or "them". And anyway, they became English by 1066 (that's ten sixty six).
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
numbers
French
quote:
An aside: I wonder why are there no old English words for bits of time smaller than a day?
Forenoon, noon (or midday), afternoon, dawn, halflight, sun-up, sunrise, morning, sundown, twilight, evening, night.
But they didn't wear watches. Which seems odd, as "watches" comes from Old English.
Hmmm. The Old English had the word "bell", so we can always call the time like seamen (middle watch, morning watch, forenoon watch, afternoon watch, first dog watch, last dog watch, and first watch - with one to eight bells rung in each, other than in the dog watches. You can find out about all this on the web, if you look (think "Weaky Pea Dear" and look for "ship's bells")).
The dog watch is over. The first bell of the first watch has been rung - it is after eight thirty in the evening here.
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
1054
*cough* *cough* 1066.
Methinks your mind was on another time, when the pope and the bishop of the "New Rome" of the East parted ways.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
The Old English had the word "bell", so we can always call the time like seamen
But they did not have that new name for a "hound".
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But they did not have that new name for a "hound".
This web page says that they did.
[ 03. August 2007, 00:28: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
numbers
French
I should have seen that, even being the dolt that I am.
quote:
quote:
An aside: I wonder why are there no old English words for bits of time smaller than a day?
Forenoon, noon (or midday), afternoon, dawn, halflight, sun-up, sunrise, morning, sundown, twilight, evening, night.
Ah, but those are not lengths of time, they are times of day. A dot, so to speak, not a stretch. I may not have said what I wanted very well. As ken showed, there are many old English words for lengths of time that are longer than a day. But few for lengths of time less than a day.
My asking about what makes a word old English was in answer to Arial, who seemed to want to say that if a word came from the Romish tongue, however early, it could not be used here. Which as you say is wrong.
And why 1054, you may ask? It stuck in my mind as the year when old English gave way to middle English, but in truth it was the year the eastern church and the western church broke asunder. I was thinking of Chaucer, but he was much later. So, my bad. It shows (as if there were any grounds for thinking otherwise) the swamp that is my brain. A lot goes in, but whether it will come out at all, or how much like what went in it will be when at last it does, is (are?) more than a little iffy.
[ 03. August 2007, 04:20: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
My asking about what makes a word old English was in answer to Ariel, who seemed to want to say that if a word came from the Romish tongue, however early, it could not be used here. Which as you say is wrong.
That wasn't what I meant. What I meant was that if you were going to speak of the church worship that was held in the morning, or at any other time throughout the day, you would have had to have a word that was Romish and had never been any other. The only one that can be named is None, if I understand aright, but it doesn't mean what it meant then and would be a play on words.* So I think we can all say that these names for the worship are out? It seemed to me that you might be saying that if they were known to the Old English at that time they'd be all right, but maybe that isn't what you meant.
(*I see, by the way, that while there is a word for laughter, there is no word for speaking of a story that made people laugh, or that someone may be the kind of person who finds many things laughable and can make others laugh. Fool is the nearest, but that isn't what I meant. The Frankish brought many words with them that spoke of things other than that which you could see or touch.)
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
person laughable Fool
Laugh is in, but "-able" is out, is it not?
"Person" and "Fool" are from French.
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Ah, but those are not lengths of time, they are times of day. A dot, so to speak, not a stretch. I may not have said what I wanted very well. As ken showed, there are many old English words for lengths of time that are longer than a day. But few for lengths of time less than a day.
While forenoon lasts a while - is longer than a dot - I can see that you mean words for meting out time, as foot and inch mete out the lengths of things.
I can only think that the Old English, being farmers and fighters, had no need of such words. Or else the words have been lost, as so many other words were lost. I think the Danes today write "time" when they mean one twelfth of the daytime, although that does not help us much with English.
Anyway, the seaman word "watch" means one third of the day, other than the dog watches (from Old English docga, ken!) - which lasted only one sixth of a day. So "watch" is kind of a way of meting out time (doesn't Holy Writ talk of something lasting "but a watch of the night"?) But I think you are right, overall.
Eight bells have rung. I am late for bed. The middle watch is upon us (well, upon me).
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I think we can all say that these names for the worship are out?
No, we cannot. MSHB said above that they are in, and I am saying they are in.
quote:
It seemed to me that you might be saying that if they were known to the Old English at that time they'd be all right, but maybe that isn't what you meant.
Yes, that is what I am saying, no more and no less (mostly). And that's what I think MSHB was saying above (up top there).
I think we all would say that a lot of old English words for daily things have dropped out of English. The Frankish word (was "gallic" in old English?) for the same thing took over, and it "died" so to speak, and was lost.
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
I can only think that the Old English, being farmers and fighters, had no need of such words.
And the Franks were not fighters and farmers?
quote:
Anyway, the seaman word "watch" means one third of the day, other than the dog watches (from Old English docga, ken!) - which lasted only one sixth of a day.
I love the sound of a brass bell ringing the watches in two-bell "words". Such a sweet song! But I wonder how old this meaning of "watch" is. It may be that that "watch" meant "to keep watch" and the meaning "a part of the day" in the sailor's sense, came much later. (But as we have said, if words have old English roots, that will do also.)
[ 03. August 2007, 16:10: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I think we can all say that these names for the worship are out?
No, we cannot. MSHB said above that they are in, and I am saying they are in.
So say we all. Well, I do anyway.
As for the lost words, we have already said that new ones may be made with Old English words bound in new ways. ("Far-speaker" as above.) I think, if you say also, that we can resurrect* words no longer spoken.
*Romish, I know, but it must have been known before 1066 in the church.
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Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Agreed, Campbellite, on making new words based on old roots. But I like making my speech sound as unweird as I can (if you get my drift).
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
I understand, Mousethief, and you do it well.
In the morning, I will have breakfast with the men from a new church who are "nesting" at our church. The new church beginning works with men who are newly freed from the "Big House"; they help them find work and a dwelling. We are most glad to have them in our church house.
Afterwards, my wife and I hope to see a tale shone on a wall.
[almost wrote a bad (french) word.]
[ 04. August 2007, 04:35: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What does that mean, "nesting" at your church? Do you mean they're not moving in, but they're staying there while they find somewhere else to live? Like birds that "nest" for a while in one place, then fly off to somewhere else? (Unlike birds that live in one tree (or such) for all their lives? Which birds do that? But this takes us far afield from what we were talking about. Whatever it was.)
It's too bad one can't say "for a short while but not forever" in one word, like the French do. Ah, well. We can't have everything. (Doesn't stop us from asking, though, does it? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
*Romish, I know, but it must have been known before 1066 in the church.
There seems to be some misunderstanding here.
What we said before was: anything written in *Old English works* is in. But not words that were only written in works of the tongue of Rome. Yes, the Old English monks knew the word "resurrectio" - well, they did if they wrote or spoke the tongue of Rome. But that word never came into the Old English tongue, as far as I know. So it is out. But Romish "nona" (meaning "ninth") did become Old English, hence "noon" in English today. It need not worry us if the word has new meanings today - that happens all the time in every tongue. But the word must have been written in Old English works, not only in Romish works. It must have been *borrowed* in Old English times, as (say) offer, and plant, and even psalm were.
Here is something like it. Many English-speaking folk today know what "de rien" means (or "de nada" for those of you living in the New World). But those words are not part of the English tongue, they are French (or a sister tongue of French). So too, many Old English folk knew the Romish tongue - but the Romish tongue was not Old English. Only if the Old English borrowed those Romish words, and uttered them in the middle of speaking Old English, did those words become Old English themselves.
So words *borrowed* from Rome are in. But not any other Romish words known to the more learned monks who wrote and spoke in the Romish tongue itself.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Thank you, Campbellite. What you've said has that ring of truth. There are words that come into English, and then there are words that English speakers know, but never become English words themselves. In our own day, one of those words is "de rigeur" -- I know what I means, and I say it (or write it) from time to time, but it never really is English. And in writing, such as in a book, it would be written in those "leaning letters" with a foreign name. That's something I knew (somewhere in the farthest reaches of my brain), but hadn't thought of yet, at least as it has to do with roots of words. I love talking about things like this. There's so much to learn, and so many folks on the ship who can teach me.
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
You are welcome, but it was not I. MHSB wrote that.
MT, by nesting, I mean that it is a new church which does not have a house of their own. They borrow our church house for worship on Saturday evenings. (The devil has had Saturday night for too long, their pastor says.)
Tomorrow afternoon, our church board meets, and I must lead it.
[ 05. August 2007, 03:19: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Oh, I see! They are borrowing your house of worship for their own time of worship.
I wonder what the devil sees in Saturday? Although I must say the yardwork I have to do most Saturdays does seem a little devilish. Or, indeed, downright satanic. All right, it seems to be the breath of hell itself, blown up from the fathomless pits of the underworld to sear the hair from my eyebrows.
Maybe that's a bit over the top. But most Saturdays I can think of things I'd rather be doing.
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
really letters foreign
Truly outlandish words. But I am always amazed at how much MT writes in flowing English of the kind spoken today, while almost all his words are "in".
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
a new church which does not have a house of their own
By the way, you may write "building" instead of "house" if you wish, as build and -ing come from Old English.
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
satanic
Too devilish for this game?
My weekend. I spent Saturday at a church working bee, helping another man put some new water-pipes in a kitchen wall. On Monday, a team of workmen will be putting in new benches in the kitchen, as well as new sinks. So the water-pipes were needed *now*.
Sunday - church in the morning. Then home for the rest of the day. A day of rest, a day without worry.
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
Well, this weekend I went about, meeting up with folk I hadn’t seen since I went away, and hearing what’s been happening to them. Leaving out the things about sickness and so on (one good old dog had to be put down) the big matter to talk over was that a plot of land has been sold in the town! Ah! Small town living – where we all know who owned it, (though he hasn’t lived here for thirty years) and how much it went for, and are all deeply wondering what might be going to happen on the block – will they build? Will it be a house? A bed and breakfast? Will someone get work there? Truly, we care about all this – no less than eight neighbours have told me all about it in the last three days. Yes, not much happens here….
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Leaving out the things about sickness and so on (one good old dog had to be put down) the big matter to talk over was that a plot of land has been sold in the town!
"Plot" was a good word. I had to look it up as I rather felt it might be French. But it wasn't. (Well, not when it is a plot of land.)
But "matter" is from French.
There is nothing like a good land or house sale to get everyone talking in a small town. It is the same where I live. Our church will not even ask the nearby house-sellers what our church building and land are worth, as the gossip would run wild that we were selling (and we are not).
So the yearly meeting - where the church leaders tell the others in the church what the church has been doing and spending - cannot say what the true worth of the land and building are. We dare not find out, owing to all the gossip it would stir up.
Sigh. Sometimes you wonder "Small town, small minds." But when you read the news from big towns, you see that their minds are every bit as small too ("Look at what young Hilton is doing now!"). Only they don't know each other well enough in big towns to gossip about anyone they know. They can only read gossip in the news, all about "stars" far away.
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
There is nothing worth gossiping about in my town and I do not wish to know what my house and land are worth, never mind the cathedral where I worship.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Rats! I look up some of these words over and over (I have an online word-book I like a lot, and they show up in the "words you have looked up before" box iykwim) when I write them there), but still some words get by me.
As for my weekend, my wife and I had a great day yesterday. Our littlest was at his best friend's house, so we had some time to ourselves, which we don't get any too often. We drove up to a town about 25 miles north and west of here (with a French name that means "some monks"). There we went to one of those gatherings where growers sell the food they have grown. (There's a French word for that (well, two words), but if there's a word in English for it, I don't know it.) We bought some goat cheese and some honey.
After that we went to a wine shop in that town, where they offer small bits of wine for folks to drink (I don't do the spit thing) so you can see what you like or don't like. We bought two of those, one delightfully dry like I like them, and one kinda sweeter like my wife likes them. Plus we bought many others. We dropped over 100 bucks on wine. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Then for our mid-day meal we ate food from that land just south of our land, our land being -- hmm, how to say this in English? -- the brought-together lands of the landmass west of England and across the sea. (How I miss those French words!)
After that we came back to our hometown, where they had shut down the streets in the heart of town so folks could set up tables and sell their wares -- crafts and hand-made things, most of them rather dull. When we saw that this was that weekend (they do this once a year), we went home and got the dog and walked back downtown (about half a mile -- it's a smallish town) and looked around, up one side of the street and down the other. We didn't see anything we felt we had to buy, so we walked home again. But it was good to be out and about with my lovely wife and our maybe-too-friendly dog.
While we were downtown a lot of folks asked us about the dog, what breed he is, how old he is, and such. Many asked if they could stroke his fur, which he loves. He is the sweetest dog, and loves to meet new folks. Sadly he startled a little four-year-old boy, who reached out to stroke him on the side when he wasn't looking, making him twitch and look around quickly. So we stayed a while and talked with the little boy and his mother. The boy was so shy, and the dog was so glad to see him, that they had a hard time getting along. The dog would want to kiss the boy, which made him shy away; then the dog would settle down, and the boy would reach out, but that would make the dog put his head forward and try to kiss the boy again, and so forth.
It was a great day, of the kind we don't get any too often.
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Leaving out the things about sickness and so on (one good old dog had to be put down)
_______________________________
If I may write my first, shy words in this fine thread - your words about the old dog leaped out in a very telling way, to me. I also have only a fortnight ago found it needful to put down a dear pet. Fully fifteen years of age, he was a small white earth-working dog, whose delight it was to rid the home and nearby land of small vermin and other filthy beings.
I am heavy-hearted, even now. His foot steps are no more heard about the place. And his sharp voice no longer tells of people coming near our buildings.
Having lost his sense of hearing, seeing and reasoning, he was no longer finding joy, of any kind, in life. Alas. His loss is hard to bear.
One question for the others who write here: I see the word "house" used very much, and I think that this word comes most directly from the German speech. Is this allowed? I ask your forgiveness if this question makes you roll your eyes. The wit you display, all of you, is most delightful.
Pearl Before Hopefully-disease-free Swine
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Pearl, I am so sorry to hear about your beloved dog. I pray that even now he has found rest and freedom from all sickness, and that he ails no more forever.
Nevertheless, I would be the thief of mice that I am if I did not tell of the words you wrote which are not from Old English:
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
fine
pet
vermin
place
voice
people
sense
reasoning
joy,
question
allow
display
roll
disease
About "house" -- this word was in Old English (as "hus"), and also found its way into German. There are many words like this -- they grew from one root, and came down into both tongues.
[ 05. August 2007, 22:16: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Sorry, "I would not be the thief of mice that I am."
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
PB4Swine, I truly feel for you, about your little friend. I recall when my dear little dog, Grendel, died, (hit in the road) how wrenched I was. The man who wrote the verses “If”, said “Brothers and sisters I bid you beware, of giving your heart to a dog to tear”, which may not be great verse, but yes, it hits the mark with the feeling (and is all English.) (The good old dog I spoke of before was a neighbour’s – little Daisy; her sister Splot is looking lost and unhappy.)
As has been said (I see above) the word “house” is English, but goes back an older language still, marks of which can be heard in many lands (the Netherlands, for one). The word doesn’t sound the same in all those lands; it only happens to sound the same in English and the one you name; it could just as easily have sounded the way it does in Scotland.
“Pet” is interesting – I don’t know where it came from, unless from French word for “little” by way of the Scots.
[ 05. August 2007, 22:56: Message edited by: bush baptist ]
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
I see it! Kindly wash out "just"!
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
Oh, dear! And wash out "interesting". I was so taken with thinking about the other word that I wandered into French.
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
quote:
-----------Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
fine
pet
vermin
place
voice
people
sense
reasoning
joy,
question
allow
display
roll
disease
ROTFLMBO ( I'm sure that is an Old English word ) Go on with your work now. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Pearl
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
Today was a good day, though there was much to do. Our worship went well. One of our elder men sang a song by himself. He is not as skilled as he once was, but he did well. I was one of the two elders who asked God's blessing at the Lord's Table. The other elder with me today is full of years, and needs a wheelchair. He has had cancer* for five years and is weak, but he hangs in there.
After our noon meal, our board met. The one boardmate, who is most often the naysayer, did not make a stink. (Whatever the board talks about, she's against it. Bless her heart.) A good meeting.
Afterwards, our elders met to pray for the sick folk in our church. One person in my parish is in the sick-house after being hit while crossing a street. Next Sunday I will be taking the bread and cup to some of our shut-ins, as we do once a month.
*OE from the Romans
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
delightfully Plus ...
hmm, how to say this in English? -- the brought-together lands of the landmass west of England and across the sea. (How I miss those French words!)
The northern New World? New England and beyond? Land of milk and honey? The Great Kingdom in the New World? A-Merry-Can-Land (so-called as they like their cans of beer)?
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
fur stayed
"stay" as in rope holding up the mast is good. But the other word meaning "to keep oneself there a while" is from French. Thus saith the online word book (I am at work and cannot get to my learned books at home).
Did not WC Fields warn us about children and dogs - that they steal the limelight? Even in your weekend tale.
I can see where you get "tables" from. My first thought was to call it "out". Good thing I looked it up. Learning a little French at school (such as "sur la table") made me think of the word as French. One keeps learning in this thread.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
person parish
Thou Frenchman, thou!
But I always knew the French had left their mark in the New World.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
"stay" as in rope holding up the mast is good. But the other word meaning "to keep oneself there a while" is from French. Thus saith the online word book (I am at work and cannot get to my learned books at home).
Shit! I've gotten this one wrong before! You'd think I would learn from my mistakes.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
I always knew the French had left their mark in the New World.
But with a hose, the right kind of nozzle, and a good deal of water, I think we can wash most of it away.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
person parish
Thou Frenchman, thou!
But I always knew the French had left their mark in the New World.
You are right, alas. The first one I knew. A little digging tells me that the second word took over the OE "priest-shire".
Mousethief, sometimes I think the french-speakers to our north forget that they lost to the English (led by Wolfe) at that town whose name means "King's-Hill".
I must hold that one in mind for later.
Bishopric should be alright, too.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
Thank God it's Friday!
This week has been dreadful. The woman next door came home. She needs more help than our building offers. Another is caught in the gap for her healing-worts toll. She is understandably worried. Then there is the woman whose son ought not be staying here overnight, but is nonetheless.
They all want us to make all these things right.
Enough already! We are not on call this weekend. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
I will be looking to buy some new hardware (which shows output you can see) tomorrow. The old one went dark, and the one I am borrowing must go back to the owner. Blithe day!
So what are you other slackers doing?
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
Well, I spent the day today helping out in the town shed, and speaking with folk who had come in, as if they wanted to buy something, but more truly so they could be with someone. One is a big boy who is not bright at all, but he likes to hang out and talk – I like it too. We sat in the sun part of the time and waved to passing wains, and laughed when they waved back, and more so if they blew their horns at us. Then there was a man – also not too bright – who wandered around the shed, fingering things – I found him harder to deal with, partly (I am ashamed to say) because he smelt a bit, and partly because he once had a name for doing wrong to little girls. Poor lonely man. And then there was a woman whose brother-in-law has died; she wanted to talk, too, about the fights there had been between all the kin – so much sorrow in the world, so much sorrow we make for ourselves.
Posts: 1784 | From: drought-stricken land | Registered: Jan 2007
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
So what are you other slackers doing?
I've been working. In between I learnt how to drive a wagon on a two-lane high-speed road. I liked this a lot. The only bit I didn't like was the bit at the beginning and end where you have to go on a road that is in no way straight.
This weekend I'm having a rest. I went out for breakfast and now that I'm back I'm going to watch a play on the silver box. I borrowed four of these from the nearby House of Books, which is open to all. They're about a man who wakes up after his wagon bangs into something and finds he's gone back in time to 1973. He's one of those men who hunts thieves and murderers. I think that in the end he does go home to his own time but I can't swear to it yet. If you live in England you may have seen this.
Also, as some of you know a few weeks ago it rained heavily and the iron horses stayed at home. Today the folk who own them sent me a gift to make up for it, which means that I can go somewhere else for free. I'm hoping it'll be enough to get me to the sea for a weekend.
(Right. Now you can all tell me everything I got wrong.)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
caught understandably staying
"catch" is a kind of northern French, not Old English (even though "caught" looks like "taught", which is from Old English).
"understand" - yes ... "able" - no (see Alaric's laws of this game at the top of the thread. New words are alright only if they are put together from words that came from Old English, like "weekend").
"stay" I have written about more than once above. "Stay" (rope on mast) is in; but when it means "keep somewhere for a while", it is out (from French). They are two words that look the same, but do not come from the same tongue.
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
boy
Many have given their thoughts about where "boy" comes from. None of these thoughts are "Old English" - mostly they say French/Romish or from the Netherlands. So ... hard to say where it comes from - but never written in Old English.
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
wagon
"wagon" - already written about in this thread. "Wain" is from Old English (in); "wagon" is from the Netherlands (out). Sometimes English likes to borrow a word it already has - like skin (and shin); skirt (and shirt) - but those sk- words come from the Danish settlers in Old England, so they are alright in this game.
About my weekend? Nothing very great - no talking with lonely folk (a worthwhile deed), nor looking out for neighbours throughout the week (hard work, I can well believe).
I played with the hardware last night and some of today, even writing some software (it worked better than I thought it would, and I liked writing it, but no one else would want it, I think).
But mostly, my household and I drove a long way over to a great big shop where they sell all kinds of household goods, like stools and tables, beds, cupboards, and so on. The owners of the shop live near Denmark and are well-known all over the world for their household wares. Often you have to put them together yourself. Maybe you know the shop. Their wares have odd names that seem like old Danish words sometimes. To my ear, the name of the shop seems like the words "I key a". One room in the shop looked like it was more than three floors high, with shelves all the way up to the roof.
We bought a few things - like boxes for my wife to hold her belongings in. We looked at cupboards and tables for the living room, to put against the wall. But we didn't buy any. I think my wife wants to borrow a big enough horseless cart to bring the cupboard home, and then she will buy it. Today she only wanted me to look at the cupboard. So I did.
We also ate there, as it was midday. As we went into the shop, a woman was handing out sweets to all the folk coming in. Well it seemed good until I found out that the sweets were sticky and stuck to my teeth - a bit like honeycomb, but worse. Oh well.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
So long as your teeth didn't leave your mouth -- do you think that woman handing out sweets maybe worked for a tooth-puller?
Posts: 1784 | From: drought-stricken land | Registered: Jan 2007
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Does that mean that dentist and oral surgeon are not old English words?
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Does that mean that d... and o... s... are not old English words?
Two Latin, one Greek
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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bush baptist
Shipmate
# 12306
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Posted
In reply to Sir Kevin: quote:
Does that mean that d... and o... s... are not old English words?
However did they get along without them? -- no wonder toothache is an Old English word! If we follow MSHB's line that to have the word is to have the thing, and from that, not to have the word is not to have the thing, I guess grisly tooth-pulling was all you could get in Old England. (But if Ethelred was Unready for this, he could have chewed garlic to fight the rot -- and steered well away from all those sweets!)
Posts: 1784 | From: drought-stricken land | Registered: Jan 2007
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
So long as your teeth didn't leave your mouth -- do you think that woman handing out sweets maybe worked for a tooth-puller?
She was clothed like the other men and women working in the shop. I do think the shop wanted us to feel "sweet" about them, but I found it to be more of a worry than a sweetener.
I am glad that no parts of my teeth fell out this time - but it would not be the first time that eating sticky sweets made bits of tooth or fillings come away. I might add that my tooth healer is more of a tooth filler than a tooth puller. It has been a long time since I had a tooth pulled out.
I wonder what King Alfred called his tooth healer? I guess being king means that you can tell them: "Listen, tooth healer. If it smarts too much, then you get the axe. So be careful with that tooth-borer."
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
One room in the shop looked like it was more than three floors high, with shelves all the way up to the roof.
given that you have already used the words "ware" and "house", could you have descibed this high room as a warehouse ?
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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
One room in the shop looked like it was more than three floors high, with shelves all the way up to the roof.
given that you have already used the words "ware" and "house", could you have descibed this high room as a warehouse ?
As someone who doesn't go into these shops often, I didn't think of that. Yes, the household wares shop had a great big warehouse full of goods, stacked up to the roof, as well as many showrooms with goods set out for buyers to walk about and look at.
Shop - showrooms - warehouse - those Old English must have done a lot of shopping. I can see King Alfred now, dragging his shopping cart through all the showrooms, looking at some new benches and stools and cupboards for his great house. The queen (Ealhswith) would say, "That cupboard would look good up against the living room wall. I wonder if they have it in white? But I want the doors with frosted glass and silver handles."
Hmm "set" - good if "to set out"; not good if "a set of things". Yet another word that is indeed two words, one from Old English and one borrowed from the French or Rome.
Church this morning. The speaker spoke about the kingdom of God - a key thought running through all of Holy Writ. Not many turned up - less than other Sundays, but we sang well anyway. The offering was also big for such a small fellowship gathering.
And the water outside was a sight for sore eyes (as ever), with the sun shining bright on this warm winter's day (our church building is on the strand - the seaside with lots of lovely golden sand). There were even men, women and children swimming and playing in the water and on the sand. And boats floating at anchor. As they say in another tongue I know, "The sun was smiling".
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
MSHB,
I see that "cart" the thing can be said. But "cart" the deed cannot. Am I right about that?
I will go to church in a short while. (I am on the east coast of the Western land, so it is earlier here than in England.) I will stand as elder at the Lord's Table today.
After worship we will be sending off some of our children to church camp*. For the midday meal we will have Italian pie (flat crust with meat on top).
I will then take a deacon along to bring bread and cup to our shut-ins.
* As there were Roman warriors in England before 1066, would I be right in thinking that this word was already in the English tongue?
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
MSHB,
I see that "cart" the thing can be said. But "cart" the deed cannot. Am I right about that?
I don't see anything wrong with "cart" the deed - it comes from the same word, only it has been turned into a doing word rather than a thing-word. But it comes from the same word in Old English. New meanings for old words happen all the time - and new ways to put words together (else how is it lawful in this game to write "hardware"?)
quote:
camp*. * As there were Roman warriors in England before 1066, would I be right in thinking that this word was already in the English tongue?
"Camp" and "warrior" are from French. The fighters from Rome, who came before the English, said "campus" when they meant a field (hence a field to fight in or the fight itself: as in "campaign" and "Mein Kampf").
The Middle English borrowed "camp" (sleeping out in the fields) from the French. Old English did have a word "camphad" ("camp-hood") meaning "fighting", so it is hard to say that they didn't know the word at all. It seems like one of those words that was borrowed more than once - once as "fighting" (in Old English) and later as "sleeping out" (in Middle English). My word book calls "to camp" northern French.
quote:
pie crust
French - they liked their food and gave it all new names when they came to England.
Your church seems to send the bread and the cup out often to shut-ins. The early church did the same - caring for those who cannot come (like the sick and elderly). Believers would even take home some of the bread to eat, bit by bit, throughout the week. So the fellowship of the table lasted all week, not only part of Sunday. A fellowship of everyone, all the time. Shut-ins too!
And now this reader of word books must go to sleep - it is well after twelve midnight.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
Yes, we do. At one stop we had five elder folks (one of them was from a sister-church in the 'Burg). I brought along a new deacon to show him how to do these things. (He's only 24 and not too bold.)
I do not yet have any new hardware for sight output. I had hoped to buy one last weekend but could not. The one I have now is borrowed, and needs to go back.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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