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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Problem of Susan, and of Narnia, and of CS Lewis
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I wonder if Lewis felt that he had gone over to the shallow, worldly side when he started wearing a suit and tie.
He might well have done well wearing long trousers anyway. Seriously look at the this passage from The Hideous Strength. Mark is coming back from a "wordly" attitude and here is how C.S. Lewis describes part of it:
quote:
He reckoned he was only a few miles from St Anne's and decided to have tea before he set out. He had tea. At his Landlady's suggestion he had a boiled egg with his tea. Two shelves of the sitting room were filled with bound volumes of The Strand. In one of these he found a serial he had begun to read as a child but abandoned on his tenth birthday came when he was half way through it and he was ashamed to read it after that. Now he chased it from volume to volume till he finished it. It was good. The Grown up stories to which after his tenth birthday he had turned to instead of it, now seemed to him, all except Sherlock Holmes to be rubbish.
He again seems to be getting at the "airs of adulthood" but this time it is male airs not female airs.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
What's so "grown up" about makeup? Gwai never wears any. Does that mean she's still, on some level, a child?
I think he considered it '''grown-up" because little girls don't wear it, and because, at that time, most grown women did. You probably don't have to wear a suit and tie to work, in Lewis' day it was generally required. Same with adult women and lipstick at that time.
Maybe there was a little bit of Peter Pan in Lewis.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Perhaps she had confused the signs of growing up with the reality.
It's one thing to strut around in lipstick and nylons, it's another to actually mature. And part of the maturing might be the realization that, in the end, lipstick and nylons are just lipstick and nylons.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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adso
Shipmate
# 2895
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Posted
As I read the book, the problem with Susan was not that she wore make-up, but that her main interests had become parties and make-up and stuff.
There's a difference between wanting to look attractive and not wanting very much else. CSL isn't the only one who puts this in children's stories, by the way; the revolting mother of Roald Dahl's Matilda springs to mind.
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os justi meditabitur sapientiam, et lingua eius loquetur judicium. lex dei eius in corde ipsius, et non supplantabuntur gressus eius. alleluia.
Posts: 688 | From: pays de galles | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeaceFeet:
Don’t the children forget nearly everything about Narnia when they’re out of it? When they return in Prince Caspian they begin to remember not only small details that anyone could forget, but huge parts of their lives in Narnia.
And visa versa. Near the end of the book, after they've been Kings and Queens for many years:
quote:
So they lived in great joy and if they remembered their life in this world it was only as one remembers a dream. [...]
"I know not how it is, but this lamp on the post worketh me strangely. It runs in my mind that I have seen the like before; as it were in a dream, or in the dream of a dream."
It seems the memory of one world fades when you live in the other for a long time, and so it all must have seemed a bit improbable. "We were grown-ups? And now we're back to being kids again? Whatever." There's enough scope for belief in Narnia to be an act of faith, and I don't think Susan is insane for rejecting it. She's just a bit easily led and disloyal, so deserves to be eaten by Tash, evidently. But that's a different thread. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
It's one thing to strut around in lipstick and nylons, it's another to actually mature. And part of the maturing might be the realization that, in the end, lipstick and nylons are just lipstick and nylons.
That's certainly been my experience.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Susan's failure should have been equally drastic given what has gone before.
Somewhere I have a book of CSL's poems. There's one that's about this sort of thing, and (IIRC) afterlife judgement. One line is "Nearly they fell who stand"; another is "nearly they stood who fall".
I'm a universalist these days, so I don't think this holds true in terms of ultimate salvation. But small things do make a difference, whether we're talking about following a faith path, or a marriage, or avoiding a car accident.
Think of it in terms of "slippery slope", and "for want of a nail...".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
She's just a bit easily led and disloyal, so deserves to be eaten by Tash, evidently. But that's a different thread.
Maybe a different thread, but within the context of THIS thread, as several people have pointed out, there is never the slightest suggestion that Susan is eaten by Tash. Or that any other horrible (eternal) fate befalls her, although of course she suffers the horrible temporal fate of losing all her family in a train accident.
I'm trying to think back to my childhood reaction to TLB -- to me it made perfect sense that Susan had become distracted by the "things of this world," wanting to act like a grown-up and losing her childhood faith -- I didn't think of it as a male or female thing, just something that might happen to anyone if they weren't careful to keep their mind open. And I never felt Susan's fate was eternal or permanent -- only that she might be later getting there than the others.
Of course, I read the whole thing as being highly allegorical since, as a good Seventh-day Adventist child, I knew they could not possibly all go anywhere, to Narnia or heaven or anywhere else, immediately after dying in a train crash, but would need to wait for the Resurrection. In which case Susan, assuming she eventually grew younger and wiser, would make it to heaven at the exact same time as everyone else.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I'm completely with you Trudy Scrumptious. (At least on the first two paragraphs -- having been a good Episcopalian child, everything I knew about heaven came from Prayer Book. And Narnia.)
One other difference actually -- when I read TLB as a child I thought that Susan did die in the train crash. Not that I thought it meant she was in some Hell either. (I think I thought the choices were either really dead oblivion or heavenly life. Maybe I wasn't such a good Episcoplian child after all.) It was only when I reread the book as an adult that I realized she wasn't on the train with them at all.
I don't see what the big deal about the lipsticks/nylons is. It seems like a perfectly reasonable detail to illustrate fake growing up vs. true maturity which includes the things we know as children. It doesn't have to be the perfect true universal detail for all times and all places and all people.
And in answer to Arabella Purity Winterbottom's question (although I'm trying to figure out what the question is trying to illustrate), I didn't own a pair of slacks until 7th grade, and apart from getting teased, was perfectly happy in skirts; like wearing tights (and have done ever since I discovered getting them in the proper size so the crotch doesn't try to crawl down to my knees); only started wearing slacks a great deal in college; don't currently own any slacks; and seldom wear lipstick although I looked forward to and enjoyed the occasional grownup bit of lip gloss when I was old enough to be permitted it in highschool. FWIW.
[ 09. January 2008, 01:17: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Like others here, I just assumed that Susan had become 'boy crazy', and full of the desire to be very grown up. Given time, she would mature, and be able to come back if she chose to do so. Heaven knows there are plenty of people in this world who choose to live a superficial life because it seems to make them more interesting - Paris Hilton, anyone?
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Phos Hilaron
Shipmate
# 6914
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon J:
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
It's one thing to strut around in lipstick and nylons, it's another to actually mature. And part of the maturing might be the realization that, in the end, lipstick and nylons are just lipstick and nylons.
That's certainly been my experience.
Assuming that you are, in fact, a man, this deserves to go on famous last posts or something
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Gaero?.......Gaero!
Posts: 1684 | From: Choson | Registered: May 2004
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Lad Himself:
I think the story reminds us (fairly gently) of what we have against God. Whatever comes after, this further up and further in, is going to have to be awfully good to make up for having to find my brother's body. Or for Susan, left behind as a rebuke, to have to identify the others. I personally feel I have rather a strong case against Him. I remain angry and if His answer will be perfect, I've yet to imagine it. Presumably I won't be disappointed, but it'll be the first time.
Neil Gaiman is the best thing ever.
Neil was our GOH at Mythcon XXXV and he read this outloud to us, prior to its publication. He pointed out that many of us made assumptions (inferences) about what he was saying and what he meant, things that he didn't explicitly say but I tend to argue he implied. He definitely knew he was playing with peoples' heads but he's so fun and charming that it's hard to mind too much. I've been intrigued that the very aggressively protective CSL estate hasn't challenged the story as they've kept others from publishing stories that address the Susan issue in the past (I guess if you're big enough they ignore you-- ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ). I don't think Gaiman isn't trying to make things 'fit' with CSL so much as making a response (if you haven't noticed, there's a link to his GOH speech in which he speaks of Narnia and its importance to him in childhood) to it.
But your own post and anger with God makes me think of Job 40-42 and particularly the culmination "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:5-6). God is more than capable of answering for Himself but I think a big part of our difficulty is that we see such a small part of the picture and make judgments based upon inadequate knowledge.
Eutychus, I'd not seen the Calvin & Hobbes ersatz final comic; poignant, it reminds me of The Velveteen Rabbit.
quote:
dj-ordinaire said:
Nah. He just realised too late that he'd introduced 8 children, which isn't such a nice mystical number as 7. So he jettisoned the one he liked least.
I doubt that very much; I suspect it's more likely he was trying to deal semi-realistically with the fact that not everyone 'gets it' in the same way, at the same time. Some people never 'get it' at all - consider the parable of the sower. These books were written very quickly (one could say "dashed off") and, as much as I love CSL and these books, they suffer for it - they could have been better. *sigh*
quote:
sanityman said:
I'm not sure that the experiences of people in this day and age are at all similar to Susan. To deny something you once held on faith is one thing, but she hadn't just "believed in Narnia. She had been there, had seen, smelt and experienced it all in a physical sense. She had met Aslan, not as you might "meet" God in prayer or the sacraments (no disrespect intended), but in the flesh.
To deny all of that, and say that it never existed, is to deny not just your former beliefs but all 5 of your senses. I think CSL intended this to be the analogy you describe, but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny.
It's an interesting question, isn't it? How would you or I deal with living for 10 or 15 years in Narnia, ruling, growing up, traveling, etc., and then being immediately reduced back to childhood? That, in itself, would be really hard to process and I suspect some people would indeed deny the reality of the experience because they couldn't prove the experience to anybody on the outside of it (God bless Digory Kirke!). Later you said: quote:
I went to the south of France when I was eight; for Susan to deny Narnia would be like me denying France existed (I haven't been back there since).
But what if you went to the south of France, grew up, married and then one day almost inadvertently crossed a barrier and found yourself an eight-year-old, back in England... It's rather a different dynamic, I think.
Excellent point, Dyfrig!
For those of you interested in the process and dynamic of creativity among the Inklings, let me again recommend my friend's book, The Company They Keep - really excellent, readable, and inspiring - whether you're a Lewis Scholar or not--
Mousethief, Lewis wanted Joy listed as co-author of Til We Have Faces and the publisher vetoed it; she in fact co-wrote it with him. Glyer may speak of his early aborted attempt to write on the Psyche myth in TCTK but I don't recall off the top of my head (referencing Eutychus).
Part of what I love about The Great Divorce is the idea that people continue to have opportunities, that God continues to reach out. There are people in Hell who continue to move farther and farther away, isolating more and more - and then there are the folks who take the busride to the outskirts of Heaven... I don't find Biblical support for this POV but I hope it's true.
I think the 'nylons & lipstick' thing is shorthand, that's all - in and of themselves, nylons and/or lipstick are just fine. Josephine nails it regarding the efficacy (from the dmonic POV) of small temptations rather than great ones.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
quote:
sanityman said:
I'm not sure that the experiences of people in this day and age are at all similar to Susan. To deny something you once held on faith is one thing, but she hadn't just "believed in Narnia. She had been there, had seen, smelt and experienced it all in a physical sense. She had met Aslan, not as you might "meet" God in prayer or the sacraments (no disrespect intended), but in the flesh.
To deny all of that, and say that it never existed, is to deny not just your former beliefs but all 5 of your senses. I think CSL intended this to be the analogy you describe, but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny.
It's an interesting question, isn't it? How would you or I deal with living for 10 or 15 years in Narnia, ruling, growing up, traveling, etc., and then being immediately reduced back to childhood? That, in itself, would be really hard to process and I suspect some people would indeed deny the reality of the experience because they couldn't prove the experience to anybody on the outside of it (God bless Digory Kirke!).
{digression: I suspect prof Kirke wouldn't have wanted to extend that reasoning to people that he didn't already know were telling the truth ![[Biased]](wink.gif) . The over-simplifying of a difficult question reminds me strongly of the central trilemma in Mere Christianity /digression). Good point, and in line with Lewis's statements elsewhere, e.g. Uncle Andrew: "The trouble with trying to make yourself stupider that you really are is that you're likely to succeed." And of course the dwarves. I had always assumed it would have a huge impact, but it seems Narnia is not "like that," that you do forget. This always makes me think of the situation at the end of the movie Contact, and I wonder what I would have said...
quote:
Later you said: quote:
I went to the south of France when I was eight; for Susan to deny Narnia would be like me denying France existed (I haven't been back there since).
But what if you went to the south of France, grew up, married and then one day almost inadvertently crossed a barrier and found yourself an eight-year-old, back in England... It's rather a different dynamic, I think.
And perhaps one in which you'd have to deny your experiences to preseve your sanity? Of course, Susan could have been lying, like Edmund pretending not to have been to Narnia the first time - but to herself. Ultimately, we're left guessing, because Lewis does rather throw her character away. I know one person who identified with her as a little girl, and still resents him for it.
- Chris.
eta: PS, with you on the Great Divorce!
[ 09. January 2008, 06:22: Message edited by: sanityman ]
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re the Narnia, France, and England comparisons:
IMHO, it's more involved than that. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
France is some place people generally know about and agree exists. Narnia is someplace no one knows about unless they've actually been there. You can't tell people about it--at best, they'll laugh; at worst, they may lock you up. You can't prove anything about it.
Now, plug that bit into the comparison that Lynn just made, and I think you'll have a more accurate comparison.
FWIW, I think this is the same problem people run into when they speculate about being one of Jesus's original disciples. Sometimes they think they would've stayed faithful, etc....but people, especially in a monotheistic culture, don't normally accept someone as a deity incarnate. We might not do any better than the people who lived then.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re women characters:
Add to the list of strong ones, Sarah of (Whatever) Corners in "The Great Divorce". ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
And perhaps one in which you'd have to deny your experiences to preseve your sanity? Of course, Susan could have been lying, like Edmund pretending not to have been to Narnia the first time - but to herself. Ultimately, we're left guessing, because Lewis does rather throw her character away. I know one person who identified with her as a little girl, and still resents him for it.
I'm always sorry when a work of fiction has a strong personally negative impact on a person... ![[Frown]](frown.gif) But I wonder if it makes any sense to think of Susan as suffering a peculiar form of PTSD (!! - but I'm actually seriously pondering it - of the more dissociative type).
GK, weird thread juxtaposition - I was reading that as "Sarah Connors" and I just mentioned that character on the tiger hell thread a few hours earlier! But I know who you mean, that fabulous, celebrated 'unimportant' soul...
I love it.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by adso:
As I read the book, the problem with Susan was not that she wore make-up, but that her main interests had become parties and make-up and stuff.
I guess that's right. It is worldliness he seems to have been warning against, not attractiveness (& as an aside, maybe to him, as to many men, lipstick & frilly knickers and all the rest of it aren't that attractive any way). Not the kind of worldliness that wantds possessions and riches and comfort (which is really a species of gluttony, as well as provoking avarice) but the kind of worldliness that wants public recognition, and wants to be important and involved (which is related to envy and pride). He goes on about it at length in Surprised by Joy and That Hideous Strength is at least partly an Awful Warning against the temptation of always wanting to be in with the in crowd.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Maybe a different thread, but within the context of THIS thread, as several people have pointed out, there is never the slightest suggestion that Susan is eaten by Tash. Or that any other horrible (eternal) fate befalls her
I agree it's not stated outright. Lewis was writing a children's book after all, and he certainly never said Susan couldn't repent. But looking at the rest of Lewis' writing, he did believe in hell - albeit perhaps reluctantly. And in that context Peter saying gravely "Susan is no longer a friend of Narnia", and then...
quote:
From the Last Battle:
And all the creatures who looked at Aslan in that way swerved to their right, his left, and disappeared in his huge black shadow. [...] The children never saw them again. I don't know what became of them.
Personally, I read that as more than a suggestion of a nasty fate.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Personally, I read that as more than a suggestion of a nasty fate.
As you are welcome to. But don't blame it on Lewis. It sounds to me like annihilationism. And anyway it says nothing at all about Susan because she wasn't one of the ones that came to the door and looked at Aslan. That day of reckoning for our world is still to come, and Lewis holds out hope for repentence for those hardened to Aslan/God, as shown by Trumpkin and Bree and even Susan.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
<Naughty tangent begins ...>
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I guess that's right. It is worldliness he seems to have been warning against, not attractiveness (& as an aside, maybe to him, as to many men, lipstick & frilly knickers and all the rest of it aren't that attractive any way).
Indeed, Lewis himself seems to have preferred the middle-aged mother of one of his war-time compariots to lipstick and frilly knickers. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
<... Naughty tangent ends.>
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
For those of you interested in the process and dynamic of creativity among the Inklings, let me again recommend my friend's book, The Company They Keep - really excellent, readable, and inspiring - whether you're a Lewis Scholar or not--
Is a very good book on how (JJR) Tolkien, the Lewis's (Warner and C.S.), (Charles) Williams and (Owen) Barfield interacted. I can therefore recommend it. However, it is probably best read alongside Humphrey Carpenter's seminal book on the aforementioned literary group 'The Inklings' even if some of the details of the two thesis's disagree. Carpenter's book is helpful as it provides greater biographical and background colour which assist in the reading of the book by LMC's friend.
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
Hi Mousethief,
As I said, Lewis "never said Susan couldn't repent". Her final fate was left undecided. Saying she deserved to eaten by Tash was meant to be mostly tongue-in-cheek (hence the ), but if she'd been on the train with the rest on them what would have happened to her? Peter's tone makes it clear that her disbelief is a serious matter.
I'm not sure about annihilationism. How well does that fit in with Lewis' other writings? My (somewhat hazy) impression is that he appeared uncomfortable with hell but ultimately supported a traditional interpretation. Is that fair?
[ 09. January 2008, 15:38: Message edited by: Hiro's Leap ]
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
For those of you interested in the process and dynamic of creativity among the Inklings, let me again recommend my friend's book, The Company They Keep - really excellent, readable, and inspiring - whether you're a Lewis Scholar or not--
Is a very good book on how (JJR) Tolkien, the Lewis's (Warner and C.S.), (Charles) Williams and (Owen) Barfield interacted. I can therefore recommend it.
As can I. My parents asked me what I wanted for Christmas - the only thing I'd seen the last few months that I was at all concerned about (except for all five series of Babylon 5 on DVD ) was Glyer's book. It's available via amazon.co.uk too.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
...I'm not sure about annihilationism. How well does that fit in with Lewis' other writings? My (somewhat hazy) impression is that he appeared uncomfortable with hell but ultimately supported a traditional interpretation. Is that fair?
My reading of Lewis is that he accepted that there is a Hell -- but that we choose to put ourselves there, by rejecting God's grace. That Hell is the absence of God, rather than a fiery pit. Not to say that there wouldn't be immense torment in such eternal loneliness...
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
...I'm not sure about annihilationism. How well does that fit in with Lewis' other writings? My (somewhat hazy) impression is that he appeared uncomfortable with hell but ultimately supported a traditional interpretation. Is that fair?
My reading of Lewis is that he accepted that there is a Hell -- but that we choose to put ourselves there, by rejecting God's grace. That Hell is the absence of God, rather than a fiery pit. Not to say that there wouldn't be immense torment in such eternal loneliness...
Ross
He also seems to think (at least when he wrote 'The Problem of Pain')that at some point "the flag" would be planted into someone and that "...it is better for the creature itself, even if it never becomes good, that it should know itsef a failure, a mistake." Which implies pain through unwelcome self-knowledge.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
if she'd been on the train with the rest on them what would have happened to her?
The fact is that she wasn't on the train. I don't think the Narnia books are systematic enough for any speculation to be worthwhile.
quote:
I'm not sure about annihilationism. How well does that fit in with Lewis' other writings?
I don't have it to hand, but when I read The Problem of Pain, he stated it quite explicitly. The Great Divorce, written five years later, contained a hell that certainly wasn't annihilistic. Then again, I don't think he intended much of TGD to be very literal·
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
I'm not sure that I would call Lewis' postition in TPoP annihilistic, because there is something which is cast (or casts itself) into hell. Lewis talks about the remains of something which had once been a human soul, just in the same way ashes had once been a log before it was put on the fire.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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PrettyFly
Ship's sunbather
# 13157
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Maybe a different thread, but within the context of THIS thread, as several people have pointed out, there is never the slightest suggestion that Susan is eaten by Tash. Or that any other horrible (eternal) fate befalls her
I agree it's not stated outright. Lewis was writing a children's book after all, and he certainly never said Susan couldn't repent. But looking at the rest of Lewis' writing, he did believe in hell - albeit perhaps reluctantly. And in that context Peter saying gravely "Susan is no longer a friend of Narnia", and then...
quote:
From the Last Battle:
And all the creatures who looked at Aslan in that way swerved to their right, his left, and disappeared in his huge black shadow. [...] The children never saw them again. I don't know what became of them .
Personally, I read that as more than a suggestion of a nasty fate.
(Italics mine for emphasis)
I think these words are worth noting, because ISTM that in saying that, Lewis is explicitly not saying that Susan - or anyone else - is damned or off to a fate of eternal suffering/punishment/banishment, and that he personally is refraining from judging Susan (et al) and presuming to know God's mind.
They are just not in the New Narnia, because they chose not to go that way, or because they didn't understand what they saw (like the dwarves who only hear a growling when Aslan speaks, and believe themselves to be in a dark shed when they are really in bright sunlight). They disappeared into Aslan's shadow; Maybe they are just "gone". If Aslan's shadow represents hell, maybe hell will be conquered and all those within it set free.
"I don't know what became of them" reminds me of my own answer when non-Christian friends ask me my views on hell - I don't know. I don't know what hell is, I don't know what it's like, I don't know where they will be going when they die, and even if I had some idea I don't think it is my place to speculate.
I trust that God will be just, merciful and loving, and that he knows what he's doing.
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Screw today. I'm going for ice cream.
Posts: 1797 | From: Where the sun keeps shining and where the weather suits my clothes | Registered: Nov 2007
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Personally, I read that as more than a suggestion of a nasty fate.
As you are welcome to. But don't blame it on Lewis. It sounds to me like annihilationism. And anyway it says nothing at all about Susan because she wasn't one of the ones that came to the door and looked at Aslan. That day of reckoning for our world is still to come, and Lewis holds out hope for repentence for those hardened to Aslan/God, as shown by Trumpkin and Bree and even Susan.
It also resonates with Jesus speaking to Peter at the end of John's gospel, when Peter looks back and says, "what about him?" and Jesus basically says, "what happens to him is none of your business." Disappearing into Aslan's shadow sounds like a "none of your business, off your radar" kind of fate. As prettyfly says, they're not in the New Narnia - that's all we really know.
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
For those of you interested in the process and dynamic of creativity among the Inklings, let me again recommend my friend's book, The Company They Keep - really excellent, readable, and inspiring - whether you're a Lewis Scholar or not--
Is a very good book on how (JJR) Tolkien, the Lewis's (Warner and C.S.), (Charles) Williams and (Owen) Barfield interacted. I can therefore recommend it. However, it is probably best read alongside Humphrey Carpenter's seminal book on the aforementioned literary group 'The Inklings' even if some of the details of the two thesis's disagree. Carpenter's book is helpful as it provides greater biographical and background colour which assist in the reading of the book by LMC's friend.
I think Diana presumes folks have already read The Inklings. And yes, there's a huge difference in the fundamental group theory at work: Carpenter argues that the Inklings didn't influence each other (based in part on their own statements) and Diana argues that they couldn't help but influence each other and unpacks historically why such a weird view came into being in the first place (in short: an understandable reaction against the accusation that they had a "group mind" !!!) and looks at the complex and varied dynamics of influence (I personally think this book is really insightful and practical for writers and other creative folk). How cool that you've read it
And Doc Tor (I'll tell Diana; she'll be jazzed).
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon J:
I'm not sure that I would call Lewis' postition in TPoP annihilistic [...] Lewis talks about the remains of something which had once been a human soul, just in the same way ashes had once been a log before it was put on the fire.
I wonder if that ties in with the end of The Last Battle where Lewis says of the Talking Beasts that passed to Aslan's left that "they suddenly ceased to be Talking Beasts. They were just ordinary animals."?
quote:
Originally posted by prettyfly:
I think these words are worth noting, because ISTM that in saying that, Lewis is explicitly not saying that Susan - or anyone else - is damned
I might say similar, but with the emphisis changed: "Lewis is not explicitly saying...".
Actually, in part I agree with you (and everyone else who thinks I'm reading too much into the books): Lewis deliberately left some ambiguity in the fate of the non-believers. Part of this perhaps reflected his own struggles with the issue (IIRC); I also suspect he was a kindly soul and didn't want to scare children shitless.
quote:
even if I had some idea I don't think it is my place to speculate.
But we know Lewis did speculate. He did more than that - he argued for a traditional(ish) understanding of eternal hell and God's judgement. I honestly don't see why it's a stretch to interpret the passage this way. IMO he's at least consciously hinting that this may be their fate.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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PrettyFly
Ship's sunbather
# 13157
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Part of this perhaps reflected his own struggles with the issue (IIRC) <snip> I honestly don't see why it's a stretch to interpret the passage this way. IMO he's at least consciously hinting that this may be their fate
Well sure; It's a difficult issue. I'm sure he didn't like the idea of Susan going to hell for all eternity any more than we do. But yes, it may have happened. He doesn't know. We don't know. And as Lynne said above, it's not really "any of our business".
Personally I was much more interested to know what the rest of the new Narnia was like. When I first read TLB I was desperate to go higher up and further in and see everything they saw.
But, for the moment at least, that's none of my business either.
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:I also suspect he was a kindly soul and didn't want to scare children shitless.
Well, yeah, that too
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Screw today. I'm going for ice cream.
Posts: 1797 | From: Where the sun keeps shining and where the weather suits my clothes | Registered: Nov 2007
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by prettyfly:
ISTM that in saying that, Lewis is explicitly not saying that Susan - or anyone else - is damned or off to a fate of eternal suffering/punishment/banishment
Personally, I don't hold out much hope for the guy who got carried off screaming by Tash.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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PrettyFly
Ship's sunbather
# 13157
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Posted
Ah... yes... well... good point.
But I was really just referring to those we see disappearing into Aslan's shadow in the passage quoted above, and to those who are conspicuous by their absence, like Susan.
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Screw today. I'm going for ice cream.
Posts: 1797 | From: Where the sun keeps shining and where the weather suits my clothes | Registered: Nov 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
(I personally think this book is really insightful and practical for writers and other creative folk). How cool that you've read it
And Doc Tor (I'll tell Diana; she'll be jazzed).
I have every intention of stealing all her ideas and presenting them as my own for my next Greenbelt talk... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by prettyfly:
ISTM that in saying that, Lewis is explicitly not saying that Susan - or anyone else - is damned or off to a fate of eternal suffering/punishment/banishment
Personally, I don't hold out much hope for the guy who got carried off screaming by Tash.
Where do you think the two of them went?
We again make the mistake of thinking that Lewis was writing systematic theology. He was writing fantasy stories. Some things were meant to be parallel between Narnia and the Real World™, but not all things need be. Lewis can have brought the wicked (however defined) to annihilation in the Narnian world without saying he believes that's the fate of anybody in the Real World™.
Oh, and it's hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire, iirc. From that nasty and bizarre last book of the New Testament
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
What Mousethief said: CSL wasn't writing Theology 101 for Precocious Children. First and foremost, these are fantasy novels designed to sneak Jesus past the "watchful dragons" at the Sunday School door; he had very strong feelings on the baptism of the imagination (as in our imaginations). He was thinking, "what would Jesus be like if He was in a world of talking animals?" (which goes way back in Lewis' childhood - Boxen and all) and coming up with the King of Beasts, Who is the Son of the Emperor Over the Sea.
Many of the problems expressed on this thread were problems JRRT had with the series; he was a fan of much of Lewis' work but not Narnia.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Many of the problems expressed on this thread were problems JRRT had with the series; he was a fan of much of Lewis' work but not Narnia.
If I were JRR Tolkien I would not be a fan of Narnia. It's the difference between working out your own mythology by integrating Norse elements into a Jewish setting, and raiding half a dozen different folklores (plus Father Christmas) indiscriminately.
Susan's problem it seems to me is the same as faced by any young woman who is given the choice between fitting in with social norms of appearance, and pursuing a vocation based on her own interests and talents. Based on the role models for women available in our society, I think it's a difficult problem to negotiate. And it's one that C.S.Lewis was aware of based on what he says in Screwtape. (I don't think his ideas about the correct outcome for women were right at all - he was a dinosaur in this instance.)
Lewis didn't see Hell as punishment. To be in Hell is in secular terms to have wasted your life. (Quite what counts as wasting it differs from Christian to atheist humanist. A Christian might say that if you've ever made moves towards loving other people you haven't fully wasted it.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Many of the problems expressed on this thread were problems JRRT had with the series; he was a fan of much of Lewis' work but not Narnia.
If I were JRR Tolkien I would not be a fan of Narnia. It's the difference between working out your own mythology by integrating Norse elements into a Jewish setting, and raiding half a dozen different folklores (plus Father Christmas) indiscriminately.
IIRC, this was exactly Tolkien's complaint, that the world was too much of a grab-bag of images ("it started with a picture") without enough consistency of vision, or even internal logic.
Interestingly, I remember Lewis saying that he thought the internal logic of the fairy tale was important when discussing Grimm's tales, so there's further evidence of the rushed nature of the Narnia books.
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:What Mousethief said: CSL wasn't writing Theology 101 for Precocious Children. First and foremost, these are fantasy novels designed to sneak Jesus past the "watchful dragons" at the Sunday School door; he had very strong feelings on the baptism of the imagination (as in our imaginations). He was thinking, "what would Jesus be like if He was in a world of talking animals?"
I know no-one will agree with me here , but I think he succeeded almost too well. I've always found the character of Aslan to be immensely appealing, much more so than anything a reading of the Gospels can conjure up in my imagination. Aslan isn't half as troublesome and unreasonable as that fellow in the NT.
- Chris.
[ET tidy up attributions]
[ 10. January 2008, 10:15: Message edited by: sanityman ]
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
For those of you interested in the process and dynamic of creativity among the Inklings, let me again recommend my friend's book, The Company They Keep - really excellent, readable, and inspiring - whether you're a Lewis Scholar or not--
Is a very good book on how (JJR) Tolkien, the Lewis's (Warner and C.S.), (Charles) Williams and (Owen) Barfield interacted. I can therefore recommend it. However, it is probably best read alongside Humphrey Carpenter's seminal book on the aforementioned literary group 'The Inklings' even if some of the details of the two thesis's disagree. Carpenter's book is helpful as it provides greater biographical and background colour which assist in the reading of the book by LMC's friend.
I think Diana presumes folks have already read The Inklings. And yes, there's a huge difference in the fundamental group theory at work: Carpenter argues that the Inklings didn't influence each other (based in part on their own statements) and Diana argues that they couldn't help but influence each other and unpacks historically why such a weird view came into being in the first place (in short: an understandable reaction against the accusation that they had a "group mind" !!!) and looks at the complex and varied dynamics of influence (I personally think this book is really insightful and practical for writers and other creative folk). How cool that you've read it
Fair enough. I read it as someone with an interest in the Inklings in general, and in Tolkien and Williams in particular, rather than as a writer/academic. I wanted to highlight Carpenter's book as a good source, alongside your friend's book, for those new to the Inklings/who don't know much about them.
'The Company They Keep' is certainly a very well written book - I yomped through it in about 1.5 days. However, I would say that her thesis is fairly obvious one, once you begin to think about it. (That groups will cross-fertilise is a fairly isn't a new idea, it happens at many different levels from menstruration to literature.) What I find rather odd is that as Carpenter should have rejected this thesis out of hand. (Though to be fair Carpenter was a biographical journalist not a literary historian or theorist.)
If you're friend is interested, what the Inkling world* really needs is a decent biography of Charles Williams as one doesn't exist in print at the moment.
* Not Narnia or Middle Earth!
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
Aslan isn't half as troublesome and unreasonable as that fellow in the NT.
I found Aslam cold and distant. I much prefer that NT fellow with his weakness for children and messed up adults.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I don't know. "Of course he's dangerous. But he's GOOD" seems to sum things up pretty well to me.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
<... just a thought, passing thru..>
Gwai said
quote:
... It is made clear that the rest of her (Susan's) family dies and goes to heaven while she is left behind and probably damned.
I never "got", out of that last flying running flowing trip at the end of all things, that Susan was necessarily damned. I never assumed that every single person in the world/story was supposed to be seen in that final effortless marathon.
The end of the book was just the beginning of the real story, after all.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
Aslan isn't half as troublesome and unreasonable as that fellow in the NT.
I found Aslam cold and distant. I much prefer that NT fellow with his weakness for children and messed up adults.
I don't see him that way. My favorite passage in the Narnia books is where Lucy and Susan have a wonderful romp with Aslan after his resurrection.
quote:
Originally posted by cattyish
In The Great Divorce Lewis wrote again about what happens at death. I think he believed we can reject God and lose out on Heaven, and that Hell is real and horrible.
IIRC Lewis, in his introduction to The Great Divorce said explicitly that he did not want to get people talking about what happens after death. He was using the heaven/hell setting to discuss the behavior of human beings on earth. When he asks George Macdonald about whether people have a choice after death, Macdonald tells him he can't understand the answer to that question.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Birdseye
I can see my house from here!
# 5280
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Posted
I'm a bit anxious that so many people seem to have read C.S.Lewis as though he were an oracle of truth and his analogies should be flawless -he was just a man after all, and a man of his times, and to have everyone die and live happily ever-after in his analogous stories would have been to ignore completely those who live in and love, this world... so he chose Susan- who frankly is the dullest character in the books -which explains why he felt able to use her to represent mundane real life, and showed an alternative, an alternative that she chose.
But what he was aiming at doing, was not DAMNING Susan, but freeing children from the fear of death -I always imagined that Susan simply had to wait ages to get over her love of the world before she was ready to die and go to Narnian paradise.
Big deal -it's a point well made as one enters early teenage, the time at which you truly begin to attach yourself to the world and love it -the lingering thought is not 'Reader you're doomed if you don't die in childhood' it's 'don't lose sight of paradise as you grow up'
People have to remember that C.S. Lewis is just a writer, a Christian writer, but ultimately just a bloke, with a personal viewpoint he's coming from.
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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view
Posts: 1615 | From: West Yorkshire | Registered: Dec 2003
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Birdseye:
the lingering thought is not 'Reader you're doomed if you don't die in childhood' it's 'don't lose sight of paradise as you grow up'
Brilliantly put, Birdseye.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It's the difference between working out your own mythology by integrating Norse elements into a Jewish setting, and raiding half a dozen different folklores (plus Father Christmas) indiscriminately.
What's wrong with "raiding half a dozen different folklores (plus Father Christmas) indiscriminately"?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Birdseye:
I'm a bit anxious that so many people seem to have read C.S.Lewis as though he were an oracle of truth <snip>
This always bothers me, too but in a slightly different way. It bothers me that he has written a book with a character who is widely accepted as a metaphor for Jesus and that some people actually seem to prefer the metaphor to the real thing.
If some people seem overly critical of the Narnia novels, I think it's a natural consequence of the risk C. S. Lewis took when he decided to venture into sacred areas.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
That was brilliantly put, Birdseye.
Mousethief I don't know where Tash carried the guy off to, but reading it didn't give me the feeling it was particularly pleasant, whatever it was. You point is well made though - Narnia wasn't systematic theology. I'm not sure even Lewis would know in great detail where Tash was taking him to.
Anyway, the weekend calls. I'm outta here.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It's the difference between working out your own mythology by integrating Norse elements into a Jewish setting, and raiding half a dozen different folklores (plus Father Christmas) indiscriminately.
What's wrong with "raiding half a dozen different folklores (plus Father Christmas) indiscriminately"?
It's the classic problem of condemning a work for being something it never aimed to be. Plenty of that on this very thread. First and foremost Lewis claimed to be writing the sort of books he enjoyed reading. If you don't like the sort of books he enjoyed writing, read others. Tolkien (as per usual) perhaps said it best:
quote:
The prime motive [for writing LOTR] was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them. As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving, and for many the guide was inevitably often at fault. Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing that they evidently prefer.
(I love the aside, or at any rate have reviewed it since I have often felt similarly, even on the Ship, about the reports of people who didn't like the book. But this is about Lewis, right? Sorry.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What's wrong with "raiding half a dozen different folklores (plus Father Christmas) indiscriminately"?
Well, I for one think Father Christmas was a piece of folklore too far; a "genre" equivalent of an anachronism (anagenrism?). The film (which I didn't care much for btw) makes him stick out like a sore thumb even more.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What's wrong with "raiding half a dozen different folklores (plus Father Christmas) indiscriminately"?
Nothing necessarily - it's a matter of taste. (Although the Tolkien way involves more work, and has less risk of suspension of disbelief. Narnia is occasionally a little camp. But then a lot of people think the same about Tom Bombadil.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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