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Thread: AS: The Outsiders: Asperger's, social anxiety, and related issues
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
Lydia, you're halfway there in that you realise you're doing it. I think the trick is not to answer straight away, but allow yourself a pause.
I struggle when people say "Hi, how are you?" because I really want to tell them how I am. Seeing people's reactions when I did tell them how I am, I began to realise that I shouldn't, so the reply now nearly always is "fine".
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
Thank you, LTYYH.
I cannot and will not bring myself to reply "fine" when people ask me how I am, and I hate it when people say "fine" to me. I have learnt that they do not usually mean they really want to know in detail how I am, so I have settled on the compromise of saying something brief that gives just a very little real information.
My FIL helped me with this one. I had had a miscarriage and been ill afterwards. I complained to my FIL that people would keep asking me how I was and I didn't always want to tell them. He told me about an elderly lady he knew who had some chronic condition. She found that "Well, today is one of my better days" or alternatively "Well, today is one of my not-so-good days" satisfied most people - they neither felt fobbed off with "fine" nor overwhelmed with TMI.
I have some stock sentences to use. "Still standing" is one of my favourites when things are bad. But I still struggle with the temptation to reply to questions too comprehensively. Missing out details feels like dishonesty to me, even though I know the other person doesn't really want to know.
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
Yes, I also feel dishonest and guilty when I say "fine", but I've decided its the lesser of two evils, as I'm involved in the welcoming of new people to our church, and I don't want to drive them away. If I have the same answer for everyone, its easier. I try to steer the conversation back onto them and away from me.
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
A former choir director once asked me how I was, and I replied, "Pretty good." He said, "I know you're pretty, but are you good?"
That's become one of my favorite lines, and I eagerly await opportunities to use it.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
I thought it was going to be somewhere where those with disabilities could discuss things that related to those disabilities and people could ask how to go about getting a diagnosis from an expert ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) There's no-one here who could possibly diagnose anyone, as far as I know? A sort of duplicate of the existing support board for the parents of children with disabilities?
My take is, I think All Saints is an admirable place to ask for advice on where to start. And as to whether it's a "disabilities" board, that's not really what's being discussed. What you're talking about is a board for people with "maybe disabilities" to get advice on finding out what those disabilities might be and how to deal with them, which doesn't really lend itself to a focused topic, the way most private boards do, and also opens itself up to the aforementioned risk for the Ship. So I support Simon's decision.
If you do want to question a moderator/admin decision about the public boards, generally that's done in the Styx, but this isn't a moderator decision about the public boards, it's a Simon (the Editor and Captain of the Ship and Everything) about a private boards issue, so you'd really have to communicate with him directly, rather than argue it out here on SOF.
[ 15. January 2008, 17:08: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
I really hope things can be sorted out somehow so that people feel they have the right environments for the support they need, whether that's through something new or by spreading the word about some of the other sites and boards that are already out there.
I'd like to suggest a thread to pick up from this one. There seem to be several of us (whether diagnosed with anything specific, or just socially awkward or lacking in confidence) who are trying to improve our social skills. Perhaps we could have a thread here in AS that's a bit like the Question thread in Heaven, but more specific in content. People could ask small questions about social challenges without having to start a whole new thread each time.
Would Shipmates find that useful? And is AS the right board for it?
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Esmeralda
Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
What you're talking about is a board for people with "maybe disabilities" to get advice on finding out what those disabilities might be and how to deal with them,
Is this really what's being talked about? Because I thought what was being talked about was a mutual support board for people who actually had an official diagnosis of AS, or who had a family member with a diagnosis. I don't see that this is any different from Waving, where the members generally have a diagnosis of depression or some other mental health problem.
As to people with AS joining Waving, there already are people who come in this category, but that's because they have depression or other mental health problems as well as AS. I would be personally reluctant to define AS as a mental health problem in itself - it's not, it's a neurological problem (of course these areas overlap to some extent but it's more of a Venn diagram).
I'd be willing to ask the views of Waving members on this though (we tend to consult the membership on any policy questions such as opening to a wider group).
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I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.
http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/
Posts: 17415 | From: A small island nobody pays any attention to | Registered: Jun 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
Perhaps we could have a thread here in AS that's a bit like the Question thread in Heaven, but more specific in content. People could ask small questions about social challenges without having to start a whole new thread each time.
Why not just use this thread? It may have gotten off to a rocky start, but I think people with an interest are probably still reading it. You could post questions here, and see what happens!
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
The National Autistic Society looks like a really good resource and it looks like there is a way of getting a diagnosis here if that is what you want.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Esmeralda:
.... I would be personally reluctant to define AS as a mental health problem in itself - it's not, it's a neurological problem ...
Hi Laura, I did apologise earlier in the thread, having realised that my asking for clarification might have been seen as arguing (but wasn't meant that way), and I did contact Simon, who has written back to explain the admin situation.
No argument from me at all about admin's right to say what's what on here. It's your board. But can I please add some information: Esmeralda is right - Asperger Syndrome it isn't a mental health condition. It's a different, yet entirely valid, way of processing incoming information. It's a bit like being from one of the cultures which speak an entirely different language, and finding yourself in a world where everyone speaks only English and you turn out to be hopeless at learning a new language and no-one from England wants to speak yours either. Making ourselves understood to each other is the key.
It's why "diagnosis" always sounds very odd. It should say "identification", yet 'diagnosis' is perhaps a 'hangover' from the days when people would only be diagnosed by a doctor if their behaviour was so extreme that they had to be treated/contained in some way and people mistook their distress at not being able to communicate for a mental wellness issue.
As Tony Attwood's team say when they identify someone, "Congratulations - it's Asperger Syndrome!". A more positive approach entirely, and one I heartily agree with, even if the news isn't always what people want.
Supporting people, and encouraging good information-sharing about how to communicate with neurotypical people (and vice versa) are the main aims, and if we can continue to do that here, that would be great.
Totally agree that we are in no way able to diagnose and no-one should be commenting on diagnostic medical matters.
There is (to my knowledge) no faith-based debate community anywhere that has proper experience of this neurodiversity and I'm thinking a lot of people here might want to discuss faith in this context too? Plus lots of people who are neurotypical have asked questions about social issues and their questions and ours may be remarkably similar?
So...er...yes please, I'd love to continue to discuss suitable things here. And not be a burden to admin. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
The National Autistic Society looks like a really good resource and it looks like there is a way of getting a diagnosis here if that is what you want.
Yes, it is a very good resource, and links to many other local charities who offer other ideas for anyone who is interested or wants to know how to support someone in their church or community or family.
http://www.throughtheroof.org/downloads/#rbg is a good charity which advises churches on any disability issue, too. Tons of info on there for any faith group who want to benefit from diversity.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
There is (to my knowledge) no faith-based debate community anywhere that has proper experience of this neurodiversity and I'm thinking a lot of people here might want to discuss faith in this context too? Plus lots of people who are neurotypical have asked questions about social issues and their questions and ours may be remarkably similar?
So start threads in Purg, Eccles and Keryg to discuss things. Between the aspies, the obsessives, the theologians, the self-taught, the questioning, the random, the etc. etc. etc., I think we have a fair mix of neurodiversity on the Ship who can discuss questions exhaustively. And who can discuss the same question from different angles. Several times a year ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
E.g. How about a Purg thread riffing on the theme of: When people ask "How are you?" why is the 'correct' answer "Fine" or something equally short and innocuous, especially when it isn't true?
You'll get answers from people who know stuff about anthropology, evolutionary biology and psychology, as well as people who hate the question, those who have found better answers, those who tell the whole truth - and half the time these categories will overlap!
Sarkycow
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
I've recently come across the site of GRASP.org, which has a lot of helpful info and links to diagnostic services here in the NYC area. They also have a variety of support group meetings throughout the US.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So start threads in Purg, Eccles and Keryg to discuss things.
E.g. How about a Purg thread riffing on the theme of: When people ask "How are you?" why is the 'correct' answer "Fine" or something equally short and innocuous, especially when it isn't true?
You'll get answers from people who know stuff about anthropology, evolutionary biology and psychology, as well as people who hate the question, those who have found better answers, those who tell the whole truth - and half the time these categories will overlap!
Sarkycow
Blimey! We will?? (rummages through inbox for post from previous admin who said use Circus for quizzes, All Saints for help, Heaven for random things)...and I know about Purg, so I guess we just have to work out what's what in Eccles (clearly not a cake) and Keryg and how to phrase the questions differently in each one according to the mix of people in there, I guess?
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
I'm SO going to get this wrong, I know I am... but I'll have a go....
[ 16. January 2008, 12:29: Message edited by: amber32002 ]
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Meanwhile, over in this thread, let's start talking about specific things, as Josephine suggested.
For example - how do ASDs affect our spirituality? Do they make some things which other people find meaningful opaque to us? Or vice-versa? Does the ASD preference for order and rules have an influence on the traditions in which we express our faith? As a non-literalist reader of Scripture and a post-Evangelical, am I a square peg in a round hole? Etc.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...how do ASDs affect our spirituality? Do they make some things which other people find meaningful opaque to us? Or vice-versa? Does the ASD preference for order and rules have an influence on the traditions in which we express our faith? Etc.
I might not be entirely answering the question, but...
Things I find easy:
Services where all the instructions are written down correctly on the service sheet, or are the same as last time in terms of the order of events.
Or services where there's nothing to do at all. You can just sit and listen/think.
I guess that means I'm fine in very structured High Church or Quaker services, but I certainly can't cope with the ones in between.
Things that worry me about getting faith right:
There's often so much emphasis on 'perfect worship' on the right attitude to prayer, on wonderful communication and relationships that prove how very Christian we are.
Suppose God doesn't like the way I worship?
Suppose my ways of communicating aren't good enough?
Suppose I'm not ever going to be good enough - well, at least in terms of being someone He'd want with Him forever?
Suppose I never do manage to cope with a worship setting again, when communion is so important for me?
Suppose I'm always the one with a bench/pew to herself unless the church is full because people sense that there's something slightly different about my use of body language? Will I ever find a faith community that accepts me for who I am?
Suppose I find another faith community that tells me to (go forth and multiply) like the last one did when I asked for advice to help me?
Big questions. They're the ones that worry me on some level.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
Those are all excellent questions Amber, and any (or all) of them would make excellent OP's. Some would fit better then others in Eccles, or Keryg, or Purg. You might want to take just one of them (as a start) and try it out on one of those boards.
And don't be surprised at the enormous variety of responses you will get. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
I discussed my preferred liturgical style a couple pages ago on this thread. Basically, I feel most at home in a stiff-upper-lip, high-and-dry Anglican cathedral style of worship where everything is clearly spelled out in the bulletin. Good music and a sacred physical space are also very important to me. Luckily I go to a church that pretty much offers all of that.
However, I’ve always struggled with matters of personal faith: while it seems to come naturally to some people, to me God has always seemed to be either incredibly distant, ignoring me, or just plain nonexistent. Maybe it's because of my very logical and scientific way of thinking, but it’s been getting harder and harder for me to recite the Nicene Creed without wondering how much of it is just some human-invented myth that’s been handed down through the ages. I’ve tried my best to have a “personal relationship with Jesus”, but as with so many of my other personal relationships, I can’t shake the nagging feeling that the other party isn’t interested.
Maybe the Calvinists are right, and each of us has already been predestined to eternal paradise or damnation since the beginning of time. Somehow I didn’t make the cut, and I just haven’t yet been formally notified. That’s a depressing thought, but if God actually exists, he certainly hasn’t been returning my calls lately.
Fortunately, I can admit to all of that at my church without fear of being excommunicated. I tend to think of my parish as the spiritual counterpart to Rick’s Cafe in Casablanca: Sort of a safe haven in the midst of all the unholy wars raging outside, and a gathering place for a lot of refugees and misfits who wouldn’t otherwise have a spiritual home. If it weren’t for the Episcopal Church in general and my parish in particular, there’s a good chance I would have given up on organized religion altogether.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Those are all excellent questions Amber, and any (or all) of them would make excellent OP's. Some would fit better then others in Eccles, or Keryg, or Purg. You might want to take just one of them (as a start) and try it out on one of those boards.
And don't be surprised at the enormous variety of responses you will get.
Brain processes of a small Aspie, illustrated:
"Oh heck! It's a host - are they cross with me? Have I done something wrong? Is there a separate social meaning to Campbellite saying I might try other boards...(subthought: are the All Saints hosts pinning a picture of me to their dartboard and using it as target practice yet)...which message should go on which board...what will happen when it does...will it become a big open debate with lots of 'robust discussion' and me in the middle of it thinking "oh no, please stop "
No need to answer any of those questions. It's just an illustration of aspie thinking.
There again, if anyone has any answers to any of that, that would be nice.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
...I’ve always struggled with matters of personal faith: ... I’ve tried my best to have a “personal relationship with Jesus”, but as with so many of my other personal relationships, I can’t shake the nagging feeling that the other party isn’t interested.
Yup
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Zoey
Broken idealist
# 11152
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Posted
amber - I'm fairly NT (though with a history of depression) and I can have similar panics to yours about Hosts turning up and commenting on what I've posted! In my case such panics are based just on insecurity and a tendency to worry too much, rather than on aspie thinking.
In answer to some of your questions (please note that all the following are my personal thoughts, based on a couple of years participation in and observation of the Ship; I don't have any official authority here, so I could have misinterpreted stuff about how the Ship works, but the following are my impressions of how things run):-
I don't see any indication that Campbellite is at all annoyed or angry with you. A helpful point to remember generally on the Ship is that if the Hosts or Admins want to point out that you've broken a rule or stepped out of line at all, then they will usually make it very clear that this is what they are doing. Generally, if a Host or Admin is acting in their official capacity then they will sign the bottom of their post,'AS Host / Hell Host / Purg Host / Admin / etc'. If they don't mention their Host/Admin status in a post, then they are just posting as a Shipmate like the rest of us, rather than acting in their official capacity. From what I've seen on the Ship, usually Host / Admin warnings which are signed as such provide very specific details about what you've done wrong / which rule it breaks / what you need to stop doing. So if I'd made a personal attack in Purg, a Host would say something like, "mountainsnowtiger, this sentence: quote[] is a personal attack and therefore against Commandments x,y,z. Please take it to Hell or drop it. Bob, Purg Host." The Hosts and Admins don't tend to use cuddly language or reassure people as much as insecure folks like myself might sometimes like. However, they seem to be fairly lenient towards those who are genuinely trying to play by the rules (the Ship's 10 Commandments) and, if anybody does do something wrong, the Hostly post correcting them tends to be quite clear and specific about what they've done and how their behaviour + posting needs to change.
All of which means that I think Campbellite was just making a friendly suggestion as a fellow Shipmate.
Also, Hosts do like you to learn about the differences between the different boards on the Ship, and if you persistently start threads on the wrong board they might get a little exasperated. However, if you occasionally start a thread on the wrong board, they seem happy to move it over to a more suitable board without much of a fuss. So, I really wouldn't worry if occasionally you start a thread and then a Host moves it to a different board. (Another option, if you're very worried about it, is to pm a Host before starting a thread in order to get a second opinion of which board the thread would be most suited to.)
Hope all of that helps a bit. I'm enjoying your posts, both here and on other threads, so please don't worry too much about whether you're getting everything right all the time. The Ship's main rules are the 10 Commandments, which are fairly straightforward. If you do ever make a serious mistake in a post, the Hosts will let you know about it in fairly clear and straightforward terms. If it's a genuine mistake, they won't hold it against you. So for now, please keep posting and enjoying your time on board.
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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.
Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Oh phew...thank you.
Still not sure I'm quite brave enough to try a completely new thread about my worries on the 'robust debate' boards, but I'm having a go at trying out the other boards here and there to see what sort of things happens on them. I'll get braver, I expect.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
I have similar issues when posting here, which probably aren't helped by the fact that I have, umm, sort of a "history" of putting my foot into my mouth in particularly dramatic ways.
Also, the hosts and admins here tend to be much more hands-on than on most other discussion boards I frequent. On many other boards, offending posts or threads will simply be deleted without comment, and sometimes the identities of the hosts aren't even made public. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) Around here, though, things are usually spelled-out in a very direct manner, which is somewhat refreshing. The general rule of thumb is, if you have to ask if you're in trouble or not, you probably aren't.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Roseofsharon
Shipmate
# 9657
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Posted
I'm puzzled by the preference for liturgical worship expressed by those who are, or may be, AS personalities.
I was raised in an independent evangelical chapel back in the 1950s, and since then have been comfortably attending non-liturgical services in a variety of nonconformist denominations.
It's easy, you stand up for the hymns, and the final benediction, and sit for the rest of the time. Mostly, responses are confined to 'Amen' at the end of the prayers.
Occasionally I have visited the Anglican Churches of various friends, and have been attending the Parish Church here quite frequently in the past few years.
I find it very confusing, and difficult to follow the services, in spite of having it set out in a service book. I never know which page I am supposed to be on, some things are missed out, and other things inserted, depending on the time of year. I'm getting the hang of things now, but it has been quite distracting, and distressing on many occasions
How come Aspies don't get lost and confused?
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Talk about books -any books- on our rejuvenatedforum http://www.bookgrouponline.com/index.php?
Posts: 3060 | From: Sussex By The Sea | Registered: Jun 2005
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I'm puzzled by the preference for liturgical worship expressed by those who are, or may be, AS personalities.
How come Aspies don't get lost and confused?
I do if things change. But in Very High Anglican I've been to, they tend to be very specific in the Order of Service sheet thingies they hand out, even down to when to genuflect and which direction to face. If it was 'High Anglican Make The Service Up As You Go Along' someone would be tapping me on the shoulder and saying, "Excuse me, my dear, but why are you hiding under the pews?"
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I'm puzzled by the preference for liturgical worship expressed by those who are, or may be, AS personalities.
I was raised in an independent evangelical chapel back in the 1950s, and since then have been comfortably attending non-liturgical services in a variety of nonconformist denominations.
It's easy, you stand up for the hymns, and the final benediction, and sit for the rest of the time.
But you don't know exactly when those things are going to happen. And how do you know you're meant to do those things?
quote:
Mostly, responses are confined to 'Amen' at the end of the prayers.
Occasionally I have visited the Anglican Churches of various friends, and have been attending the Parish Church here quite frequently in the past few years.
I find it very confusing, and difficult to follow the services, in spite of having it set out in a service book. I never know which page I am supposed to be on
Ah. We're good at that sort of thing.
quote:
some things are missed out
We just scan down to find where it's picked up again.
quote:
and other things inserted, depending on the time of year.
We wait until it picks up where it left off.
quote:
I'm getting the hang of things now, but it has been quite distracting, and distressing on many occasions
How come Aspies don't get lost and confused?
In my case, because I have a system, as above, for coping. One thing I find is that I can scan very quickly, and when I get to the bit the service has got to, the words jump off the page at me. My comparison, one feels lost from beginning to end in a non-liturgical service because one never knows what will happen next, or how long it will go on for, or whether it will happen as normal (if we've gathered what "normal" is) or be different. If it differs from the norm, there are no strategies for getting back onto what's going on.
Put it another way, we're good at service books and rubrics, even if there are variations, and bad at picking up the "done thing" and "normal order" just from being there.
Or, more correctly, I am. I can't speak for all aspies. The way I describe my experience is that what is obvious to most people is obscure to me, and often what is obscure to most people is obvious to me. We notice detail other people miss, but miss the big picture which other people see.
[ 16. January 2008, 15:53: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
I'm a former RC, now high church Anglican. I love the liturgy, although I find certain things make me unreasonably angry. I can cope with most changes fine if they're written down, but BCP was a BIG shock for me, and its taken me a little while to adjust. Most of our services are CW though. I still want to "lift them UP to the Lord" at the start of the Eucharistic prayer. Also if I go to the Cathedral early morning communion service, I get annoyed when they use a specific prayer just before the EP, and its not written down anywhere, so everyone knows it except me (something about transforming fire...). Of course, I could always google it...
Also, over Christmas, the people that walked in darkness HAS seen a great light, not have!
Whether or not I'm right on this last one, some pedant will probably tell me, but it is what I was told when I was growing up, so its just plain wrong to me!
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Love the You you hide:
I'm a former RC, now high church Anglican. I love the liturgy, although I find certain things make me unreasonably angry. I can cope with most changes fine if they're written down, but BCP was a BIG shock for me, and its taken me a little while to adjust. Most of our services are CW though. I still want to "lift them UP to the Lord" at the start of the Eucharistic prayer. Also if I go to the Cathedral early morning communion service, I get annoyed when they use a specific prayer just before the EP, and its not written down anywhere, so everyone knows it except me (something about transforming fire...). Of course, I could always google it...
Also, over Christmas, the people that walked in darkness HAS seen a great light, not have!
Whether or not I'm right on this last one, some pedant will probably tell me, but it is what I was told when I was growing up, so its just plain wrong to me!
Aye, and they keep mucking about with the Lord's Prayer too. Just when I think I know all the words, along comes a change of worship leader and they throw in a few extra ones or leave some out, or change the wording to be ultra-modern.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
[tangent]
quote:
Isaiah 9:2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
"People" can be both a singular noun, as in "a people", or a plural noun, roughly the plural of "person" (in which roles it alternates with "persons" for slightly different functions). Of course, with "the" you can't tell which it is.
You wouldn't say "People is always getting this wrong"; you'd say "People are always getting this wrong". Hence, also, "people have".
[/tangent]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
"You wouldn't say "People is always getting this wrong"
Well, I wouldn't, but from listening to some of son's friends, a lot of people do (arrghhh!)
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
I know it doesn't "sound" right, but it was alway read like that at Lessons and Carols at school (a school that was generally red hot on grammar), and if you google "the people that walked in darkness has", you still get a fair number of hits.
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
Amber
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
All of which means that I think Campbellite was just making a friendly suggestion as a fellow Shipmate.
Yes, I read it that way too. I also felt that the opening sentence (about your questions being excellent) was genuinely meant. I thought that Campbellite wanted to encourage you to be brave and post some of them. The bit about posting them one at a time seemed to me just a sensible suggestion of what would lead to the most constructive kind of discussion.
Like mountainsnowtiger, I too am enjoying your posts and hope you will keep posting.
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I’ve tried my best to have a “personal relationship with Jesus”, but as with so many of my other personal relationships, I can’t shake the nagging feeling that the other party isn’t interested.
As a result of some books I've been reading by Henry Cloud and John Townsend, I've had an interesting thought about this verse:
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. (1 John 4:20, NIV)
I think it applies to receiving love as well as to giving it. I think we are hard wired to learn how to receive love by getting loved by people, and that is how we become able to receive love from God. I've certainly seen people who felt God didn't love them suddenly realise that He did after all when they spent a while with people who loved them and made them feel loved.
That makes it hard, not only for the genuinely unloved in human terms, but also for those who aren't good at reading the signals that other people do love them. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for Amber, LiG and everyone else who feels that way.
My own experience is that there are very few people that I feel sure are interested in being in relationship with me - my parents and my kids and maybe one or two others, and Jesus, definitely. But as for everyone else, yes, absolutely, I always have the nagging feeling of not really being wanted.
(I would have said also my dog, but he had to be put down last Saturday. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) )
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
...That makes it hard, not only for the genuinely unloved in human terms, but also for those who aren't good at reading the signals that other people do love them. for Amber, LiG and everyone else who feels that way.
My own experience is that there are very few people that I feel sure are interested in being in relationship with me - my parents and my kids and maybe one or two others, and Jesus, definitely. But as for everyone else, yes, absolutely, I always have the nagging feeling of not really being wanted.
(I would have said also my dog, but he had to be put down last Saturday. )
Lydia
Oh Lydia, I'm so sorry to hear that
Dogs and cats are such wonderful companions and their loss is always so very hard.
Thank you for your kind thoughts on this. I think I'd have to phrase any questions elsewhere very carefully to make it a general discussion point not a personal question.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
I have started a new thread on Purg about diversity
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
I was trying to think of a way to explain why Aspies may get unduly distressed if they make a mistake with someone.
Imagine you have photographs of all the people you know. Imagine you've put them out on a desk in front of you. You can probably visualise each person, what they are like, what their interests are, how they get on with the other people. You could probably arrange them in groups according to interests, family ties etc. Imagine that just one of them is cross with you...You can probably 'reason' that there are lots and lots who aren't, and be very calm about it.
Now collect up all the photos into one 'pack'. Now you can only see one photo at a time. The rest are there, but hidden because all your concentration is only on that one photo. You now can't work out who would get on with who, because you'll need to remember everyone else and that takes up too much thinking-space.
Imagine that the one person whose photo is at the front is the one who is cross with you. You can't 'see' any of the rest of the people at all - so their crossness represents 100% of the 'visible' people.
Hmm, not sure that works as a visual idea, but it's as close as I think I can get. For Aspies, I think we see people one-at-a-time, and our brains just can't imagine lots of people at once in the right sort of social ways, so we end up with very different reactions to things.
Does that make any sense at all?
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I don't see any indication that Campbellite is at all annoyed or angry with you.
Quite right.
quote:
A helpful point to remember generally on the Ship is that if the Hosts or Admins want to point out that you've broken a rule or stepped out of line at all, then they will usually make it very clear that this is what they are doing. Generally, if a Host or Admin is acting in their official capacity then they will sign the bottom of their post,'AS Host / Hell Host / Purg Host / Admin / etc'. If they don't mention their Host/Admin status in a post, then they are just posting as a Shipmate like the rest of us, rather than acting in their official capacity. From what I've seen on the Ship, usually Host / Admin warnings which are signed as such provide very specific details about what you've done wrong / which rule it breaks / what you need to stop doing. So if I'd made a personal attack in Purg, a Host would say something like, "mountainsnowtiger, this sentence: quote[] is a personal attack and therefore against Commandments x,y,z. Please take it to Hell or drop it. Bob, Purg Host." The Hosts and Admins don't tend to use cuddly language or reassure people as much as insecure folks like myself might sometimes like. However, they seem to be fairly lenient towards those who are genuinely trying to play by the rules (the Ship's 10 Commandments) and, if anybody does do something wrong, the Hostly post correcting them tends to be quite clear and specific about what they've done and how their behaviour + posting needs to change.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Have you been peaking at the Hostly Rulebook? That is almost verbatim what we are instructed to do.
quote:
All of which means that I think Campbellite was just making a friendly suggestion as a fellow Shipmate.
Again, quite right.
quote:
Also, Hosts do like you to learn about the differences between the different boards on the Ship, and if you persistently start threads on the wrong board they might get a little exasperated. However, if you occasionally start a thread on the wrong board, they seem happy to move it over to a more suitable board without much of a fuss. So, I really wouldn't worry if occasionally you start a thread and then a Host moves it to a different board. (Another option, if you're very worried about it, is to pm a Host before starting a thread in order to get a second opinion of which board the thread would be most suited to.)
Hope all of that helps a bit. I'm enjoying your posts, both here and on other threads, so please don't worry too much about whether you're getting everything right all the time. The Ship's main rules are the 10 Commandments, which are fairly straightforward. If you do ever make a serious mistake in a post, the Hosts will let you know about it in fairly clear and straightforward terms. If it's a genuine mistake, they won't hold it against you. So for now, please keep posting and enjoying your time on board.
The Force is strong with this one.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
The Force is strong with this one.
I've even followed your suggestion and given the Purg hosts something to fret over
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Those are all excellent questions Amber, and any (or all) of them would make excellent OP's. Some would fit better then others in Eccles, or Keryg, or Purg. You might want to take just one of them (as a start) and try it out on one of those boards.
And don't be surprised at the enormous variety of responses you will get.
Brain processes of a small Aspie, illustrated:
"Oh heck! It's a host - are they cross with me? Have I done something wrong? Is there a separate social meaning to Campbellite saying I might try other boards...(subthought: are the All Saints hosts pinning a picture of me to their dartboard and using it as target practice yet)...which message should go on which board...what will happen when it does...will it become a big open debate with lots of 'robust discussion' and me in the middle of it thinking "oh no, please stop "
No need to answer any of those questions. It's just an illustration of aspie thinking.
There again, if anyone has any answers to any of that, that would be nice.
Mountainsnowtiger has explained most of it (e.g. if the Hosts are being Hostly, they will use their "Signature" and be specific about things - you don't have to guess).
I will merely add that you can always PM a host if you are confused and looking for clarification, especially if it was something they themselves said or you are thinking about posting something on the board they host, and are not sure if it's the "right place".
They are there to help. Except the hellhosts . If you have to ask about whether something is appropriate for Hell (when it's not a personal conflict, of course ... see Commandments 1,3,4), the answer is sure to be "Don't post it".
Charlotte
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
They are there to help. Except the hellhosts . If you have to ask about whether something is appropriate for Hell (when it's not a personal conflict, of course ... see Commandments 1,3,4), the answer is sure to be "Don't post it".
Charlotte
I've seen Hell..and there's no way I'm posting a thing in there. It reminds me of the wrestling matches on the tele where you wonder if the whole things's fake but you still don't want to be in the ring...
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
That's actually a pretty acurate description of Hell.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Esmeralda
Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582
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Posted
Campbellite, how come we private board hosts don't get a look at the Hostly Handbook? This is the first I've heard of it, and it sounds really useful.
Now I'm feeling like an outsider too. Actually, to return to topic (sort of), this is, I suspect, a common feeling in the parents of kids with AS. Because the disability is 'hidden', unlike something like Down's Syndrome, other parents can have your child down as a troublemaker and not want their kids to associate with you. I think I'll go and post something on This isn't Holland about this..
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I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.
http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/
Posts: 17415 | From: A small island nobody pays any attention to | Registered: Jun 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Esmeralda:
..I suspect, a common feeling in the parents of kids with AS....other parents can have your child down as a troublemaker and not want their kids to associate with you.
Yes, very true indeed. Friend of mine has two lads with AS. Various vague acquaintances of mine have spent a good deal of time telling me how awful it is, how badly behaved these lads are, how there's no way they'd give them house room, no way they'd let them play with their child. I rather enjoy just sitting there thinking "...and you're talking to someone who has the very same thing and you don't even realise". I then explain how it's actually really good fun to have them round, provided you put some thought into it.
It was challenging enough bringing up our son with dyslexia and a very stroppy personality. The antenatal group soon split into "mums who had perfect children and were perfectly groomed and behaved" and "people who looked tired, harassed and desperate who were disliked by the perfect mums". I spent the first three and a half years of his life battling a son with a massive temper and no "off switch" at all. Then there's been the long, slow nightmare of schools that offer no help, and what we finally had to do to find one that does.
He's been an absolute star through these last years - even working for disability charities now as a volunteer interviewer for staff and as a campaigner for better rights for children with disabilities. Shouldn't need to be that way, though, should it. Children should be able to get the help they need without fights and campaigns and exhaustion and desperation. *sigh*
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
But there is a point when as a parent of a child who is being kicked, punched and hit by a child with ASD you just have to say enough is enough and being disabled in any way is not an excuse to hurt others.
For example, my middle child isn't phased by much and has friends who have profound and life limiting disabilties. However a lad with ASD got him really quite spooked as the lad in question wouldn't get out of his face no matter how often it was explained that people need space and that getting that close was upsetting to others. The ASD lad ended up hitting and punching my child and others and it was only the youth leaders and other teenagers putting themselves between lad and others that stopped it getting nasty.
I know that the youth leaders tried loads of different strategies to manage the behaviour but nothing worked and the young lad doesn't go to youth group any more.
There has to be a point when the safety of the majority overrides the needs of one child. Or maybe not. Maybe he should have been allowed to do what he wanted and maybe hurt one of the girls who is in a wheelchair and very fragile?
[ 19. January 2008, 17:24: Message edited by: Poppy ]
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
There has to be a point when the safety of the majority overrides the needs of one child.
Of course the safety and wellbeing of the other children have to be protected. If the child can't be included safely, then the child can't be included. And the child who becomes agitated to the point of hitting other people is not enjoying the situation or benefitting from it.
It might be that some simple changes could make it possible for the child to participate safely, but that's not always possible. Sometimes, as Melon said, the only answer can be, "We've done our best, but we can't do what you need."
Even then, though, if the child can't be included in the youth group, the church may still be able to offer support, compassion, friendship, and acceptance to the child and his family. Families of children with severe behavior difficulties can become extremely isolated. Figuring out ways to include them in the church community, in whatever ways are possible, would be worthwhile.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
But there is a point when as a parent of a child who is being kicked, punched and hit by a child with ASD you just have to say enough is enough and being disabled in any way is not an excuse to hurt others.
No argument there at all. People with an ASD are rarely deliberately violent, but if someone is (whether ASD or not) then they have to be stopped from hurting other people. What an awful experience for your own child...
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Esmeralda
Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582
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Posted
Yes, of course real bad behaviour shouldn't be accepted. But I'm talking about the situation where your child is just different, and that makes you different, and the other mums don't talk to you.
I know there was a time when my son was hitting other kids and doing lots of unacceptable stuff but it was because he hadn't been diagnosed and so wasn't getting appropriate input.
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I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.
http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/
Posts: 17415 | From: A small island nobody pays any attention to | Registered: Jun 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Esmeralda:
Yes, of course real bad behaviour shouldn't be accepted. But I'm talking about the situation where your child is just different, and that makes you different, and the other mums don't talk to you.
I know there was a time when my son was hitting other kids and doing lots of unacceptable stuff but it was because he hadn't been diagnosed and so wasn't getting appropriate input.
Yup, sounds familiar, and there's a lot of nodding from the others in the office who also have children with disabilities. When we need the most help and support, we tend to get the least understanding.
As an aside, one of the trickiest situations I faced was when attending a training course at a college based in an old historic house in the countryside. I had planned the route, checked the details, analysed every aspect of it as best I could, knew where the parking was, knew where the front door was...what could go wrong? I got there, and found that the front door was a 12 ft high solid wooden double door weighing goodness knows how much. As I have had shoulder operations, I have very little strength in my arms and simply could not get through the door at all. The bell didn't seem to do anything. Neither could I improvise what to do next (aspie!). Luckily, I was rescued by a gentleman who was attending the same course (phew), but it just goes to show how many obstacles there can be that simply cannot be planned for.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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