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Thread: AS: The Outsiders: Asperger's, social anxiety, and related issues
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I am curious to know, from those with Asperger's (or from those who have similar traits) whether people with Asperger's Syndrome dream the same as those without. Do they / you have vivid imaginative dreams? Or repetitive horror dreams? Or dream of lists of numbers, dream in detail about a special interest, hobby, etc.?
I guess dreams are often involuntary so may be a sign of how the brain is working when switched off from conscious thought.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
I dream in colour, and they've very vivid. I have been known to dream up the answers to problems - did this once in school with a Maths problem - I was the only one to get it right!
I used to have repetitive dreams, I had one regularly where I dreamed I owed a huge sum of money - usually £2-4M. I'd wake up distressed, and I'd be just drifting off when I'd think "but how can I pay the money back?". Another one where I was being chased by a man with an axe.
I've discovered my solution to repetitive dreams or nightmares is to think of my own solution to the dream I've awoken from. I've even been able to go back into the dream and dream the solution I came up with.
No idea if this is typical or not. Its how I am.
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Chorister asks:
I am curious to know, from those with Asperger's (or from those who have similar traits) whether people with Asperger's Syndrome dream the same as those without. Do they / you have vivid imaginative dreams? Or repetitive horror dreams? Or dream of lists of numbers, dream in detail about a special interest, hobby, etc.?
I guess dreams are often involuntary so may be a sign of how the brain is working when switched off from conscious thought.
This would be an interesting discussion to have in Purgatory, where you would get a broad input from lots of different people, not just self-identifying Aspies.
Sarkycow
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Dream thread is now started in Purgatory if people would like to continue that discussion.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
As a result of this thread, and doing the quizzes, I now find that I have Aspie and neurotypical traits.
Oh goody.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
All these contributions in less than two weeks... the Ship seems to be full of us.
First I ever heard about Aspergers was in the bookshop at Monticello, Virginia a few years ago. A book postulates, based partly on descriptions of Thomas Jefferson by his contemporaries, that he had the condition. That's not a bad role model by way of introduction.
A psychiatrist once mentioned, though probably not as a formal diagnosis, that my personality was schizoid. I was not surprised to hear that, because in our youth my favorite cousin had said that he was. The DSM mentions that schizoid personality and Asperger's can be difficult to distinguish. For awhile I thought that I was probably not an Aspie because not obsessive-compulsive enough, but I probably have my share of that, too. So much else fits. Phobia of unexpected loud noises-- check. Sing-song speech in childhood-- check. Unusual specialized interests, check. College was a blessed revelation in that one could, at least, finally meet peers who shared the same specialized interests. Wandering eyes, check. Tendency to misunderstand oblique statements, check. Apparent emotional stolidity, check. Social awkwardness and preference for solitude, big check. I'm probably a mild case as they go, but it is a relief to know (or suspect). Boomers typically would not have been diagnosed early because it had been only recently identified and was not at all widely recognized in our youth. Probably only a cutting-edge therapist, let alone a teacher or school counselor, could have been aware of it in those days.
Has anyone encountered the theory of exposure to mercury or smallpox vaccination in early childhood as a possible cause?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The vaccination story from Dr Andrew Wakefield and MMR is explained by coincidence - the MMR jab coincides with the observations of differences in the child's development. The same would apply for small pox and other vaccinations.
Having tried to get a child with ASD identified at around 3 years old, his differences were noticeable at 18 months, which coincided with vaccinations and the birth of his younger sister, who was developing normally, and put down to that by his mother. He had the "triad of impairments" and a definite uneven development of the different aspects of learning (social, physical, intellectual, emotional and creative), even at 3.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
The vaccination theory of autism? Hmm, not sure. Have read a lot about it, and have no doubt that some children may react badly to vaccinations, but there's so much research yet to be done on any aspect of how the brain develops.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right I have a really odd question. What normally happens with things on the spectrum is that people who are at extreme ends of the spectrum end up being classed as having some sort of syndrome.
So what is the opposite syndrome to Aspbergers the one that the extreme empathisers have?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I'd wondered if there was a name for that too Jengie!
Presumably people with an organizational difficulty, who easily forget things, strong empathy skills... (Just trying to work it out, but not sure if Im managing too!)
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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JB
Independent Thinker
# 1776
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Posted
And from the BBC website
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You live, you learn
You learn, you live
Posts: 2588 | From: Land of Enchantment | Registered: Jun 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
The opposite of Autism? Hmm...tricky. Williams Syndrome is widely regarded as "opposite" in one way, because those that have this are ultra-friendly to everyone. In reality, extreme empathy is seen as a good thing by society so I doubt that there really would be a medical term for it at all. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I loved the link to the BBC site. It's good to find something positive to say about any different set of abilities, and certainly there is popular opinion that people like Einstein were on the Spectrum somewhere. (PS Mr Spock is certainly a fictional hero amongst many aspies ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ).
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
But a difficulty in being able to systemise would be really awkward. I would expect delayed speech for a starters. Or rather though they would learn their first words "MumMum" "Moo-cow" and such they would not get the boost in vocabulary that happens about three or four when children have laid down a system into which they fit the words.
I would equally expect learning difficulties with language due to grammar (a system) and things like mathematics.
Jengie
[ 27. January 2008, 17:12: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, you folks may have solved a puzzle for me. My foster daughter from a couple years back--we knew something was wrong, but not what. Now I'm fairly sure it's Williams, and will suggest to her that she gets tested. It would explain a lot.
I did in fact often think that she was the opposite of autistic--excessively friendly, very very talkative, rarely without a smile, never met a stranger in her life. And oddly for someone from an abusive family, seemed to have no fear of people--even dangerous people. Even after they proved they were dangerous, to her personally. God have mercy.
But for all that, she couldn't build anything more than a superficial friendship to save her life, because she couldn't pick up on social cues, particularly the non-verbal ones, and had absolutely no sense of what was socially appropriate. She couldn't read faces or tones of voice at all, and so when someone walked in with a black cloud hanging over their heads, she'd chirp, "See you got a new haircut. Too bad it looks terrible," and then be honestly surprised when the person exploded.
(But none of this was apparent when we have various doctors interview her, test her, etc. She just came off as an exceptionally friendly and attractive teenager.)
And she couldn't systematize AT ALL. That's what drove me round the bend. It resulted in major problems with her homework, and you couldn't teach her things by families or classes--every individual item, she had to learn individually. You couldn't say "Don't wear that skimpy top to school," and assume she'd realize it was also inappropriate for church. Or a wedding. Or a funeral. You had to spell it out every damn time, in every possible situation. Good thing she was so sweet tempered, because by the end of a couple hours, I was ready to bite someone.
So it's not like autism in one way, but very like autism in another.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Oh, about language--
No, the systematizing thing didn't cause her much trouble there, but I think the reason was because Williams Syndrome results in such an overwhelming drive to reach out to people that they normally have very good vocabulary, expression, etc. Nothing is going to stand in their way when it comes to communicating, even a major cognitive problem. (My foster daughter regularly calls us at 1 a.m. and drags us out of bed to talk about nothing in particular--so the Wrath of the Lamb Chopped has no effect on her either. Communicate she will, come hell or high water.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
Thanks for comments earlier responding to my issue with dealing with humorous questions. I know this is a very tiny thing, compared with some people's struggles, but it's really bugging me, and this thread is the first place I've ever found for asking this kind of thing.
Now I have a specific example, from this week. Bear in mind that I'm female and have no possibility of growing facial hair of any kind. Here's an extract from a much longer conversation:
Friend (incredulously): When my dad shaved his beard off, someone at his work asked him if he'd grown a moustache.
Me: But I could do that really easily.
Friend: What, grow a moustache?
Me: No, realise someone's face looked different and not be able to remember what it looked like before.
Afterwards, I was annoyed with myself for responding to his joke as if he meant it literally, and dismissing it impatiently as a distraction to what I wanted to say. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
So, I would be very grateful if someone could explain how, in that kind of situation, one can acknowledge the joke and still get to make one's point. Or ought I not to mind so much about getting to make my point???
Thanks,
Lydia.
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The proper reply is a weak "Ha ha. Very funny." and then go on with your point.
But I'm no good at this either--I usually register the humorous intent, dismiss it, mentally think "Ha" and pass on to the main point, all at lightning speed without stopping to realize that the other person is still waiting for me to acknowledge the humor. So I come off as terminally earnest. I'm giving up, I think.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
Friend (incredulously): When my dad shaved his beard off, someone at his work asked him if he'd grown a moustache.
Me: But I could do that really easily.
Friend: What, grow a moustache?
Me: No, realise someone's face looked different and not be able to remember what it looked like before.
Afterwards, I was annoyed with myself for responding to his joke as if he meant it literally, and dismissing it impatiently as a distraction to what I wanted to say.
So, I would be very grateful if someone could explain how, in that kind of situation, one can acknowledge the joke and still get to make one's point. Or ought I not to mind so much about getting to make my point???
I (non-Aspergers as far as I know!) just read that and didn't detect a joke but read your response as literally as your friend had done. Now your friend may have been joking I suppose, but they could have (like me) just been responding to the comment and assumed it was a response to what immediately preceded it.
I might well have responded "what, grow a moustache?" in response to what you said, but not because I was joking, just because I misunderstood and that was the instant reply. Your next answer made complete sense of things and in fact sometimes it is hard to work out* straight away what's different about someone, when they change their appearance, even if you see them every day (Aspie or non-Aspie)!
*having noted things said about the unhelpfulness of peculiar expressions being taken literally, I stopped myself saying "hard to twig" and went for "work out"!
[sorry, probably not a very helpful reply!]
[ 28. January 2008, 07:55: Message edited by: Chelley ]
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Chelley, I'm not sure either. I get by with the words "goodness me!" which seem to cover the possibility that what they said may be humourous in some way, then look intently for signs of humour in their facial expressions.
Incidentally, can't remember quite which thread it was on, but Karl was saying that he reads numberplates of cars, and someone said "don't we all do that if we're bored?" What I noticed about me and reading numberplates and types of car is that it's also how I identify who's in the car. If they're in the wrong car, I've normally no clue who they are. Likewise if they pass me by in the street...no idea who I'm talking to most of the time. It makes for some tricky social conversations in the street ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
A former boss once asked me if I had Asperger's. I said I didn't know.
I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.
For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary
But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)
I scored 32 on the AQ test linked above, and 13 EQ/50 SQ on the EQ/SQ test.
I don't have any interest in getting a formal diagnosis. I think it would tell me what I already know - that I have some of the traits and not others - and then add a somewhat arbitrary decision as to whether I actually count as an aspie or not; and I can't see what difference that information would make to me.
Posts: 554 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Oct 2003
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
Thanks Chelley
When you just read the conversation in print, it's not clear whether his question was a joke or a misunderstanding. But in real life I felt his facial expression and tone of voice made it very obvious that it was a joke.
I don't have a problem recognising that the person is joking. I have a problem adapting my response in the light of the realisation that the person is joking. And especially I have a problem with realising the adaptation is necessary in time to adapt.
I like Lamb Chopped's suggestion of "Ha ha. Very funny." Now if I can just catch myself in time, I can try using that one. Thanks LC.
But I think actually this is part of a wider issue with me of being too single minded about saying what I want to say, and not paying enough attention to the thoughts and feelings of the person or people I'm talking too. I think I read people's non-verbal cues quite well when I'm not in the grip of a point I want to make. When my focus is on what I want to explain or relate, though, I'm hopeless at reading non-verbal cues in real time, and it only produces regret when I am able to do it in hindsight.
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
I find I can either listen to what people are saying, or look at them, not both. Or rather, if I have to do both, it takes a heck of a lot out of me.
Is it any different if you're walking along with someone listening to them, or driving along in a car listening to them? Do you find it any easier to 'pick up on things' that way?
[ 29. January 2008, 06:47: Message edited by: amber32002 ]
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
That's interesting Amber.
My brain can do lots of different kinds of input at once, but if there's output happening then the input gets delayed until the output has stopped. I therefore end up with social interactions that are the verbal equivalent of cross-posting.
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
Thanks Chelley
When you just read the conversation in print, it's not clear whether his question was a joke or a misunderstanding. But in real life I felt his facial expression and tone of voice made it very obvious that it was a joke.
I think in my case it's to do with being gullible! Of course I prefer to describe this trait as having a 'very honest and trusting character'! Someone once tried the "did you know they've taken the word 'gullible' out of the dictionary?" joke, on me and I responded with a surprised, "really!" then twigged a few seconds later when they were rolling about! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I thought I'd do the aspie quiz yesterday and I came out rather non Aspie with a score of Aspie: 75/200 and NT: 138/200 so I have to conclude that I'm either just very trusting or a bit daft!
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
A question has arisen on the Purg thread about how people go from "vague acquaintances" to "good friends" and on to "this is a relationship".
Each is clearly characterised by a set of behaviours and expectations, but what? And how do you move a relationship on from one to the other, e.g. turning an acquaintance into a boyfriend/girlfriend successfully? Or turning an acquaintance into a good friend? How do you know if they are sincere?
Any good ideas or things to share on this?
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
And also, how do you pick which of your acquaintances to try to move to "real friends" with?
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
A question has arisen on the Purg thread about how people go from "vague acquaintances" to "good friends" and on to "this is a relationship".
Each is clearly characterised by a set of behaviours and expectations, but what? And how do you move a relationship on from one to the other, e.g. turning an acquaintance into a boyfriend/girlfriend successfully? Or turning an acquaintance into a good friend? How do you know if they are sincere?
Any good ideas or things to share on this?
I think I'll go for an attempt at answering the 'acquaintance to good friend' (which was also Lydia's quesion) part!
In my experience there hasn't generally been a deliberate decision about it but I've found that with the people who became good friends: we got on well on meeting, perhaps had things in common or things to talk about, over time got to trust one another with parts of our lives that were more than chit-chat (ie family stuff, marriage stuff (for those that were married), faith stuff etc - depending on the interests of the individuals), enjoyed spending time together - whether that was with the kids and a cup of tea or going shopping or whatever. And gradually over time they become the people you want to see fairly regularly, the people you depend on for support - and offer support to in return, the people you enjoy a bit of leisure time with according to mutual interests (or just humouring each other and doing what the other one wants!), the people who know all about you and still want to hang around!
In terms of the actual steps, if I think of one friend and how we became good friends... we were part of a church group that met weekly and through being in the group we got on well. Then she had a baby and I took a gift round, then perhaps we met up for coffee when we had some free time and started to get to know more about each other and our stories. We might have had chats on the phone sometimes, or gone out to the pub (we were younger then and had the energy for a social life ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )... trust and friendship grew over time and I became godmum to her children, we shared family holidays (though that doesn't always happen/work with friends) and she would generally be one of my primary ports of call in a crisis!
In terms of sensing sincerity, if they're fairly enthusiastic about following suggestions to meet up or chat and don't always have a reason they can't make it (sometimes of course they might genuinely not be able to make it) or don't seem to want to end a conversation very quickly on the phone, then those are good signs... if they seem interested in you and your life and concerns and interests (within reason ) that's a good sign - though it works both ways.
Don't know if that's any help?
[ 29. January 2008, 20:25: Message edited by: Chelley ]
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
And in terms of that whole minefield of relationships... I think ken's answer on the Purg thread is pretty spot on!!
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Chelley: "In terms of sensing sincerity, if they're fairly enthusiastic about following suggestions to meet up or chat and don't always have a reason they can't make it (sometimes of course they might genuinely not be able to make it) or don't seem to want to end a conversation very quickly on the phone, then those are good signs... if they seem interested in you and your life and concerns and interests (within reason ) that's a good sign - though it works both ways."
Ah, that explains a lot about why we find it hard. So, people are trying to "sense sincerity" by looking at:
Whether we are enthusiastic enough about meeting up (first challenge - how do we convey enthusiasm for this successfully?),
Whether we have a good reason not to attempt to meet up (second challenge - are we going to be bold enough to say "oh heck, social occasions frighten me witless and I'm likely to say no to a night out with someone I don't know very well but I'd be ok if we did something I can cope with")
Whether we want to end a conversation quickly on the phone (oh deary me - I may do this - I'm not sure how you know what the right length of conversation on a phone is?).
And I'd have to show the right amount of interest in the other person's life, which is even more of a challenge. How do you know what the right amount is?
I must have got some of this right - I do have friends, but I've no idea what the answers would be to those challenges.
This is the trouble - I would have really benefited in my life if we had specific instructions like "phone conversations with friends should last for 3.5 minutes and should include the following elements - appropriate greeting (please select from Good Morning Sir [or Madam as the case may be]/Hello me old chum/etc - see appropriate list - and greeting the boss with "hello me old chum" may not be appropriate), make enquiry after the person's health, wait for response, process response (whilst still listening to input), check for factors in the response that require answering...is it a crisis, in which case reply with "oh I'm sorry to hear that!"...Is it good news, in which case reply with "that's wonderful - you must be really pleased?" etc etc. NB it is important to get this right. Replying with "you must be really pleased" when they have just told you their cat has died is not a good thing. Timing is therefore important.
In face to face situations there's often no way to know what the person I'm meeting wants to achieve - or whether a conversation is going well or badly. I now know to look for body language signals like feet tapping, but if they're looking cross but they don't say, I have no way to spot it. Tricky, isn't it...
Further ideas very welcome?
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
Whether we are enthusiastic enough about meeting up (first challenge - how do we convey enthusiasm for this successfully?),
Whether we have a good reason not to attempt to meet up (second challenge - are we going to be bold enough to say "oh heck, social occasions frighten me witless and I'm likely to say no to a night out with someone I don't know very well but I'd be ok if we did something I can cope with")
If they are offering something you don't want to do but you would like to meet them elsewhere you can always say that you would like to meet, but there is, for example, this exhibition you would like to see or whatever you want to do. If they aren't interested, you may not have much in common, if they are interested, then you have a point of contact.
You can politely cut off phone conversations by saying that you are very sorry, but you have to go to collect children/sort out someone at the door/whatever actual reason means you need to go. Cautionary story, my grandmother used to tell my mother to tell unwanted callers that she was in the bath. When the same caller was told this in rapid succession, he drily responded: "Very clean woman, your mother".
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Thanks, Chelley, though people are remarkably resistant to suggestions that we go to look at archive records for tithe maps I did like the story about the bath.
quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
And in terms of that whole minefield of relationships... I think ken's answer on the Purg thread is pretty spot on!!
Part of me was hoping that there's none of my peers who are more literal than I am and who would have thought "oh - I just grope someone?". More likely to end in court than church wedding, I fear
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
Further ideas very welcome?
I'll have a go (and try and answer some of your questions)...
My first thought is that if I had been getting to know you in some real life place, rather than an internet place, I would be just as interested in trying to understand how the world and communication is to you - but I would have needed to find out as honestly and helpfully as you have been here, how it feels to be you. So, if I'd had a conversation with you and maybe wondered to myself why you weren't making eye contact with me (which as has been said an NT might interpret as you were bored with talking to me) it would be helpful to know that you just find it uncomfortable. Then I'd need to explain that with my way of communicating I find it very hard to catch what's being said withoutlooking at someone's face (eyes and mouth!) and I'm not trying to make you squirm! What all this needs is openness which I think is an important basis for friendship anyway.
Sometimes I think it would be helpful if we went round with cards in our pockets explaining oursleves a bit - mine (and there is actually a Coeliac card you can get!) would probably say... "I have a bowel condition so when I say 'no thankyou' to food you might offer me, I mean no! Yes, just one little biscuit will hurt and if you invite me round to dinner and I say 'no sauce and everything completely plain' then yes I mean it and a little bit of Soy for flavour will send me to the bathroom for the rest of the night! I am NOT a fussy eater but you try knowing what will happen if you eat the tiniest bit of gluten and see how careful you are!"
Perhaps there could be a helpful Aspie card along similar lines!
I was attempting to be more direct with the whole 'sensing sincerity' thing... so if someone repeatedly says 'no thanks' to an invitation to meet for coffee/go to a museum/have lunch (especially if they don't give what seems like a very good reason) then it's likely they're sticking at acquaintances. If they ask questions (such as those I might ask you if I met you) about you and seem willing to try and accommodate how things work for you, then that's a good sign of a potential friend. If you can be honest with each other and not take instant offence when the NT says, "that's enough on 18th century brickwork for today" or you say "can we walk along and talk for a bit because all this eye contact is freaking me out" then there's potential.
As to your specific questions: "how do we convey enthusiasm successfully (about meeting up)?" You need to say it but tell the other person if you can - "I might not seem enthusiastic, but I am!" And they do need to have some idea that you will communicate with words what they might communicate with gestures/body language/bubbling excitement! Unfortunately NT's are used to finding the latter more accurate from one another than the words said... so it might even be quite refreshing once they understand!
And as to "are we going to be bold enough to say 'oh heck, social occassions frighten me witless'..." then yes, the most helpful thing is to be bold enough to say it and then suggest an alternative so they don't think you're just blowing them off!
I think being honest and upfront about how things are to you - and also trying to get a sense of how things are for them is a very good start of real friendship. And the need to be open if you inadvertently offend each other would be useful too.
Sorry there are no fixed rules about length of phone conversation but I'd say that it's not a lot different than the general male tendency to do 'briefly functional' on the phone only and once you know that you don't get all in a state when they won't talk for hours. Once people realise they can understand.
It's hard for me to say more about your phone example because of the way I think and not having enough of an idea of how it comes across to you. With your example conversation I'd be listening to what they said (eg "my cat has just died" and then responding to that as best I can, "Oh no, I'm sorry, anything I can do to help?" - my answer to everything you see is "nice cup of tea?" )
I suppose the thing is being able to switch off your own agenda for long enough to properly listen to and respond to what the other person is saying - and it's not only Aspies that can struggle with that... but I'm aware that it's harder for me to understand how communication is in such a situation.
Rather long winded and probably no more helpful than before... but with my (NT) way of looking at things there's value in just talking to each other as well as communicating useful facts...!
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Talitha:
I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.
For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary
But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)
I read that and thought "That's me!" I just about fit in with all of those. The only difference is the the last point about niche interests. Like you, I tend to go the other way, but that's because at some point in my 20s, I realised that this sort of thing does bore people stupid, so I moderated it a lot. I can still tend to do this after a few drinks though.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Talitha:
A former boss once asked me if I had Asperger's. I said I didn't know.
I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.
For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary
But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)
Apart from the face blindness thing and the writing fiction that could describe me! I would also add for the non-aspie traits -- I can do empathic listening well (or so my friends tell me) and will be the shoulder to cry on.
Reading these threads has been very interesting for me and I think has helped me to understand myself better. The eye contact thing was one of the criticisms I had from the diocesan assessors when they recommended against me going to Selection conference. I also noticed last night that my friend and I had sat next to each other in the pub not facing and that that was fine with me, possibly even easier than face to face.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
[QUOTE]
Sometimes I think it would be helpful if we went round with cards in our pockets explaining oursleves a bit
Perhaps there could be a helpful Aspie card along similar lines!
...If you can be honest with each other and not take instant offence when the NT says, "that's enough on 18th century brickwork for today" ...
Very useful indeed. Thank you.
There is such a card, (National Autistic Society) and in fact I always carry it with me, though producing it tends to result in a sort of shock on the part of the person reading it because (I suspect) they have no idea at all what it might mean in terms of what I'm about to do. In fact, one recent occasion when I produced it in a church context resulted in me being assessed by the management to see if I was dangerous or otherwise some sort of threat, which was rather the opposite of the friendly communication I was hoping would result. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I'm still not sure what sort of 'dangerous' I might be - perhaps they feared I might rearrange their hymn books into a logical order in a particularly alarming way!?
I did like the comment about the 18th Century brickwork - and if someone said this I definitely wouldn't take offence. It would be very useful to know what was working and what wasn't.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html
That is a link to the well regarded "AQ" test most often used by professionals when making a formal diagnosis.
It is not a diagnosis, nor should it be used as proof of anything at all. It is a useful "talking point", though
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
And in terms of that whole minefield of relationships... I think ken's answer on the Purg thread is pretty spot on!!
Part of me was hoping that there's none of my peers who are more literal than I am and who would have thought "oh - I just grope someone?". More likely to end in court than church wedding, I fear
Actually, based on stuff Ken has written here in the past, I think the idea of a woman groping a bloke to alert him to the idea that she fancies him, is actually a strategy he has recommended!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) (On the basis that men often don't notice subtle clues). I suspect he was exagerating to make his point, but just thought I'd throw that one in.
Fascinating discussion, and I too can agree with nearly all that list that Talitha posted.
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Talitha:
A former boss once asked me if I had Asperger's. I said I didn't know.
I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.
For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary
But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)
That could describe me. I tick most of those boxes, although I think I am fairly good at reading other people's body language.
Both my mother and my late father (both extroverts, and larger than life characters) always got extremely annoyed and frustrated at me for not knowing what to say to other people, and for not being more "outgoing" and confident in social situations - I remember that as a child I used to hate going to other kids' birthday parties, and playing all those ghastly games.
What made my social anxiety worse, was that I also used to have a bad stammer as a child/teenager. I am largely over this now, although occasionally it comes back in certain social situations.
I too have often been described as being "stand offish", "blunt", "abrupt", although I am not aware that I am. In fact, once in an appraisal at work, my manager wrote that he found me "very formal" in my dealings with him. (And I just thought I was behaving politely, and professionally!)
So glad to see that there are other people who have the same traits!
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“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
On the Purg thread, Jengie Jon made some helpful suggestions about staying safe at night (in the context of discussion about how people with higher functioning autism may be more at risk than those who are lower functioning and always under the watchful eye of a responsible adult).
Some more useful info...I have to be able to manage to get to and from meetings, thanks to my work. If I venture out into the town centre alone, the worry is what happens if I mistake a ‘friendly group’ for a threatening one and end up in a situation where I have to make a decision about what to do – e.g. calling for help, defending myself etc. In a stressful situation, my decision-making is absolutely hopeless, so I’m far more likely to walk into a dangerous situation even without making eye contact, far more likely to make the wrong decisions about how to extract myself safely, and very likely indeed to be so badly affected that any ensuing police investigation ends up with me not being able to give evidence because I can’t cope very well with the police and court process, and can’t be trusted to remember what they looked like anyway. (Unfortunately I have had this experience).
I've lost track of how many evening meetings I've not been able to attend because there's no-one available to go with me. A recent one is a big church event in central London where I've had to find an alternative speaker as there's no way I can make it there and back at night on the train then taxi without worrying myself sick.
Tricky, isn't it? But I think a good example of how even very seemingly 'able' people can be very disadvantaged in a number of circumstances and how it can end up affecting our work.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
I have been thinking. Given that Small Dog decided she didn't like the gales last night and woke up every half an hour from 3.30am onwards, there's been plenty of opportunity to do some thinking, too.
On another thread on another one of these boards there is a discussion about deepening the relationship with God. I said "how do you know that you have deepened your relationship with God?" and the answer was, in essence, "you just do" .
Perhaps that's the problem. I've been thinking about the people in my life who clearly are 'friends' - they tolerate my way of looking at the world, they go with me to things, they talk to me about various things in their lives, they invite me to social events etc (though I do wonder what they have to put up with). But it doesn't ever "feel like" they are friends. Intellectually, yes...but in terms of "feeling?" - not in any different way to someone I've just met.
From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.
So, my question would be, is anyone able to describe the 'feeling' of a deepening friendship in a way likely to make sense to someone whose mind works more like a computer? I will accept "no idea" as a valid answer
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
Amber - I'll try to have a go at answering your question later, if I have time. Right now I just have a few minutes while supper is cooking, and wanted to share a small success.
I started a second part-time job in September - just two half days a week, in a big office with lots of part-timers. Up until now I've been using the hot-desk, or, if someone else had got it, I've been wandering round looking for a desk and computer whose owner wasn't likely to want them that day. But this week I finally got my own desk, which I'm pleased about.
Anyway, here's the small success: I was sitting working at my new desk, when the woman who sits next to the hot-desk came walking down the office. As she passed me, she stopped and said,
"Oh, you've moved. I'll miss you."
So I must have got something right! I'm feeling really pleased, and wanted to share it with all you lovely helpful people on this thread. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?
You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.
I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
ADHD - possibly - have child that a paediatrician reckoned has mild ADHD: we can control it by diet and exercise.
I can identify with and work with the kids with ADHD when they drive everyone else mad. One of them took my piece of blutack off me this morning to play with, and was very surprised how soft I had got it, but I had been playing with it for over an hour. It's only me, my daughter and the kids with a diagnosis of ADHD who look knowingly at each other when we describe what happens to blu-tack when it goes liquid (it does if you play with it for long enough).
And I hate being stuck in an office all day every day with no excuse to get up and wander round every hour or so.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Zoey
Broken idealist
# 11152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.
So, my question would be, is anyone able to describe the 'feeling' of a deepening friendship in a way likely to make sense to someone whose mind works more like a computer? I will accept "no idea" as a valid answer
For me, I would say that it involves trusting the person and feeling comfortable when I'm with them. We'll have known each other for a while and they will seem to have accepted me, so I feel comfortable to be myself when I'm with them, and I know that if I do something stupid or mess up somehow then they won't judge me for it or by it, but will keep on accepting me and will still see me as 'mountainsnowtiger', rather than as 'that woman who did that really stupid / goofy / irritating thing last time I saw her'. And the trust thing - my good friends are people who I believe accept me and respect me, so if I tell them something personal or important, they're people I believe won't abuse the fact that I'm placing trust in them - won't laugh at me or dismiss the importance of what I'm telling them or go off and gossip about me, because they're nice, good people that way and also because they respect me and the importance to me of the information I'm telling them.
Not sure if that helps or not at all, amber, but those are a couple of my initial thoughts on what being friends with somebody 'feels' like for me.
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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.
Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?
I don't have it, but I know a fair bit about it. Two of my four kids have it. The other two were diagnosed as having it at one point or another, but those diagnoses were incorrect.
There isn't any way to diagnose ADHD directly at this point. There may be some way in the future. But right now, ADHD is a rule-out diagnosis. First, you have to determine that the person really does have difficulty with directing or maintaining attention, with hyperactivity, and/or with impulsivity. This is usually done with a behavioral checklist. Then you have to determine that the attention problems, hyperactivity, or impulsivity are not caused by something else.
For example, imagine a child who has attention problems that prevent them from accomplishing anything at school or at home. If you went down the checklist, there might be enough boxes checked to say the child has ADHD. But there are lots of other things that interfere with a child's ability to pay attention! The most common is probably sleep deprivation. LOTS of children and adults diagnosed with ADHD are actually sleep deprived. Allergies, dental problems, other psychiatric disorders (such as generalized anxiety disorder), sensory impairments (e.g. difficulty hearing), seizure disorders, and probably 50 other things can cause enough problems with attention that the person can be "diagnosed" with ADHD from a checklist.
That's why it's important not to diagnose yourself or someone else based on a checklist on the Internet -- or even a checklist in the DSM-IV manual. Someone with persistent difficulties that look like ADHD should have a thorough evaluation to rule out the other things that can cause attention problems.
If it really is ADHD, you can learn lots of techniques for managing it. Medication can be part of that. "Life skills coaching" can be part -- learning specific techniques that help you avoid the difficulties the ADHD is causing you.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
quote:
From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.
I don't know if there is a feeling like feeling sick and feeling better but then I am a high systemizer.
However try this when you have some good news who do you want to share it with first - these people are probably friends.
When you have bad news who do you want to share it with - these people are probably good friends.
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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Astro:
...However try this when you have some good news who do you want to share it with first - these people are probably friends.
When you have bad news who do you want to share it with - these people are probably good friends.
Oooh, thanks Astro - that's an interesting question.
Good news - I'd share it with, er, everyone
Bad news? - oh dear, I'd end up sharing that with everyone too. Unless either was Confidential. Sharing Confidential information with others is not allowed, and there's specifics for it, which is fine because at least that way you know who's supposed to know what.
This isn't going too well as an analysis of small Ambers, is it....
Lydia, brilliant news re your colleague in the office.
Liverpool Fan - hope you get some answers to this, for your own peace of mind. Son has friends with ADHD. Wonderful people, very lively though.
Karl - yes, I have the Dilbert calendar on my desk and so many of the things he says and does have me thinking "yup, that sounds very familiar "
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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