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Thread: AS: The Outsiders: Asperger's, social anxiety, and related issues
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .
If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .
If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".
Ah, I've heard this line of reasoning before...thinking....yes, I think I see what you mean? Again, it's sort of a society thing where we "expect" (for example) boys to sit very still and very quietly in classes, then are amazed and horrified when some of them want to move around or say things. Millions of years of being hunters...and all of a sudden we expect them to be scholars instead? So we drug them to get them to sit still and fit with our expectations?
Is that more or less it?
PS I don't know - I'm just trying to remember what was said in the papers?
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .
If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".
Uh, Ken? I'm not going to argue with you about what you do or don't have -- I don't know you, and it's none of my business anyway. But I'll tell you one thing: people with ADHD do not struggle because of "quite unexceptional behaviour." They struggle because their behavior is really, truly exceptional.
Not the individual behaviors -- people with ADHD, like people with AS, don't do things that other people don't do at least occasionally. But when the behavioral difficulties are pervasive, and when they interfere with the person's ability, not only to do what others want them to do (e.g., sit still, follow instructions), but with what they themselves want to do, and need to do, it's a problem.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?
You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.
I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.
I think I might have. My husband accused me of it when I was getting distracted by what I could see out of the window during an argument. I did some internet research, intending to disprove it, and was seriously freaked out by how accurately the sites about inattentive type ADHD in women described me and my experiences. All the websites I found insisted that one had to get properly diagnosed (if only to make sure one was not suffering from thyroid problems), so I saw my GP but he just told me that I did not have ADHD without letting me explain why I thought I might or anything, so I am not sure where to go from here.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
Amber
I share non-confidential news with practically everyone too. I come out very high on scores for extroversion, so I put it down to that. At present, I'm working on being a bit more discriminating, so that only some people get the whole story, and quite a few people get a brief digest, and people I don't really know very well don't get to hear about it at all. But I still find it hard not to answer literally when asked how I am.
I've been thinking about your question about how you know you're friends. Well, suppose we take the kind of relationship where the romantic "thing" is irrelevant - for example a friendship between heterosexual women. Here's how I think the stages progress:
1) We meet somewhere (occasionally or only once) and make small talk.
2) We frequent the same environment (workplace, church meeting, school playground etc) and we make small talk quite often. The small talk has some continuity from one meeting to the next (eg "You told me you were going to do X. How did it go?") This is being acquaintances.
3) When we are in the environment which we have in common, we often make a point of talking to each other, even if there are plenty of other peole to talk to. We take an interest in some aspects of each other's lives. This is being friends.
4) We meet by arrangement outside of the common environment. We tell each other some of the things that we don't tell just anybody. We help each other out with things sometimes (especially if we both have small kids). This is being good friends.
5) We meet as often as practicable depending on our lifestyles, locations etc. We tell each other all sorts of personal stuff. We are top of each other's list of someone to call upon for help (again, especially if we have small kids). This is being close friends.
At each level, it only counts if it's mutual. So, for example, if we sometimes arrange to meet up out of work, but it's only ever me that suggests it, then that means we're at (3), and although I'm trying to move it to (4) it isn't really getting there.
My personal experience is that I find it fairly easy to get as far as (2), mainly because I'm so extroverted. From (2) to (3) is a bit harder, but perfectly possible. I find it generally happens OK if I have either work or faith in common with someone, but I can't usually do it if the only thing we have in common is picking up kids from the same school, for example. The tricky bit for me is (3) to (4). I'd like to be better at spotting which (3) people are good prospects for moving on to (4) and I'd like to be better at making it happen. After that, if I do get to (4), I find that from (4) to (5) happens naturally over time.
Hope that helps, and thanks for your affirmation of what happened to me in the office.
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
Amber
...1) We meet somewhere (occasionally or only once) and make small talk.
2) We frequent the same environment (workplace, church meeting, school playground etc) and we make small talk quite often. The small talk has some continuity from one meeting to the next (eg "You told me you were going to do X. How did it go?") This is being acquaintances.
3) When we are in the environment which we have in common, we often make a point of talking to each other, even if there are plenty of other peole to talk to. We take an interest in some aspects of each other's lives. This is being friends.
4) We meet by arrangement outside of the common environment. We tell each other some of the things that we don't tell just anybody. We help each other out with things sometimes (especially if we both have small kids). This is being good friends.
5) We meet as often as practicable depending on our lifestyles, locations etc. We tell each other all sorts of personal stuff. We are top of each other's list of someone to call upon for help (again, especially if we have small kids). This is being close friends.
At each level, it only counts if it's mutual. So, for example, if we sometimes arrange to meet up out of work, but it's only ever me that suggests it, then that means we're at (3), and although I'm trying to move it to (4) it isn't really getting there. ...
Lydia
Ah...I'd never have thought to categorise it like that, but it does help, yes.
But, if it's something that only applies if it's mutual, what if one friend is shy and doesn't like to make the suggestions but is always happy to follow the other person's suggestions? Wouldn't that still count as a friendship?
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
But, if it's something that only applies if it's mutual, what if one friend is shy and doesn't like to make the suggestions but is always happy to follow the other person's suggestions? Wouldn't that still count as a friendship?
Yes, it might, if there were some other evidence that the shy one genuinely wanted the things the other one was suggesting. Or they might have an asymmetric mutuality where A is the one who initiates arrangements for meeting up, but B is the one who brings home made cake each time - a bit like those 5 love languages.
If, on the other hand, A is doing all the running and B just can't be bothered to suggest anything, and doesn't much care whether they see A or not, then the friendship isn't really working out.
Lydia
[ETA quote]
[ 01. February 2008, 23:18: Message edited by: Lydia ]
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
...Yes, it might, if there were some other evidence that the shy one genuinely wanted the things the other one was suggesting. Or they might have an asymmetric mutuality where A is the one who initiates arrangements for meeting up, but B is the one who brings home made cake each time - a bit like those 5 love languages.
If, on the other hand, A is doing all the running and B just can't be bothered to suggest anything, and doesn't much care whether they see A or not, then the friendship isn't really working out.
Lydia
[ETA quote]
Thanks once again. I've spent a fair bit of time trying to work out which friendships are in which category, and for once it's giving me a bit of security about knowing how to work that out.
My next task, I suppose, is to work out which subjects of conversation would fit into those categories of friendship. If I'm stood at a bus stop talking with people, I wouldn't be talking about anything more than the weather or whether the bus was late because that seems to be the tradition of public transport, (if people talk at all).
But how would other topics get introduced into that structure of friendship? I'm sensing that I've spent a lot of years not getting this right at all, e.g. getting stuck on talking about the same insignificant things rather than talking about things of greater significance to closer friends.
For example, bad news...
If the bus is cancelled, you might say that to anyone?
But if your great aunt was run over by a bus, there's clearly a difference in who you'd say this to..but which category of friend? Would it only be people you arrange to see elsewhere, and would it matter how long you'd known them for?
Goodness, this is complicated, isn't it. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I may need another cup of tea...
Oddly, maybe this is why I find conversations with men easier to cope with. They don't seem to expect to talk about personal stuff at all - just cars, football, rugby, computers, gadgets, etc. Is there a big gender difference in these rules, I wonder?
[ 02. February 2008, 06:16: Message edited by: amber32002 ]
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
Thanks once again. I've spent a fair bit of time trying to work out which friendships are in which category, and for once it's giving me a bit of security about knowing how to work that out.
I'm glad it helped. I thought the list of definitions might suit your way of thinking. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
My next task, I suppose, is to work out which subjects of conversation would fit into those categories of friendship. If I'm stood at a bus stop talking with people, I wouldn't be talking about anything more than the weather or whether the bus was late because that seems to be the tradition of public transport, (if people talk at all).
But how would other topics get introduced into that structure of friendship? I'm sensing that I've spent a lot of years not getting this right at all, e.g. getting stuck on talking about the same insignificant things rather than talking about things of greater significance to closer friends.
For example, bad news...
If the bus is cancelled, you might say that to anyone?
But if your great aunt was run over by a bus, there's clearly a difference in who you'd say this to..but which category of friend? Would it only be people you arrange to see elsewhere, and would it matter how long you'd known them for?
I'm not very good at this bit of it. My tendency is to tell too much to too many people in too much detail. But I'd love to hear other shipmates' suggestions about it.
quote:
Oddly, maybe this is why I find conversations with men easier to cope with. They don't seem to expect to talk about personal stuff at all - just cars, football, rugby, computers, gadgets, etc. Is there a big gender difference in these rules, I wonder?
Yes I think it does make a difference, but it's mixed in with loads of other differences - culture, age, sexuality, context, asymmetries of authority, etc. Also, "the kind of information you choose to pay attention to" is one of the key parts of personality type, so that has an effect too.
For example, this morning I bumped into the vicar's wife while I was out shopping, so I said hello. She asked me how I feeling about not having the dog any more, especially at the weekends. Because I know she's a dog owner herself, I answered in more detail than I would have if the question had been mere politeness from someone who wasn't really into dogs.
quote:
Goodness, this is complicated, isn't it. I may need another cup of tea...
Yes it is very complicated, and I think we're both going to need an awful lot of cups of tea!
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
So ultimately it's a question of a) correctly identifying the person you're talking with b) recalling their interests in things and c) tailoring the conversation to those things whilst bearing in mind the four possible depths of friendship.
Blimey, tis no wonder we aspies struggle with this level of complexity sometimes (or indeed often...).
Incidentally the big debate on autism and whether it is an illness or a diversity even got into New Scientist this week, which is talking about the fight between Autism Speaks and many Aspies/AS/Auties who don't like the way that website presents this neurodiversity at all.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
Can anyone tell me if Aspergers is different from high functioning autism? One of my sons was diagnosed as autistic when he was four. At first he was quite noticeably "odd" but as he got older he has managed to overcome his oddities so well that most people don't notice anything unusual about him.
We were told when he was diagnosed that it was classical or Kanner type autism, but I have to say that it seems just like Asperger's syndrome to me, from whatever I've read about it.
JtW.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Can anyone tell me if Aspergers is different from high functioning autism? One of my sons was diagnosed as autistic when he was four. At first he was quite noticeably "odd" but as he got older he has managed to overcome his oddities so well that most people don't notice anything unusual about him.
We were told when he was diagnosed that it was classical or Kanner type autism, but I have to say that it seems just like Asperger's syndrome to me, from whatever I've read about it.
JtW.
I agree with Josephine - it does depend on which specialist you ask. Even the National Autistic Society admits they're fairly baffled. I personally think they're one and the same.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?
You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.
I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.
I think I might have. My husband accused me of it when I was getting distracted by what I could see out of the window during an argument.
Ah, so we both have partners that reckon we have it. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
My husband accused me of it when I was getting distracted by what I could see out of the window during an argument.
My husband does that but I'm afraid I just think he's rude. If he can hold down a complicated job I'm sure he could manage to look interested in an argument with me if he wanted to. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .
If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".
That may or may not be true. What gets me though is that there are questions of whether I was hyper as a child. I was a boy! Of course I was scampering all over the place. That's what boys do.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
This has more to do with autism, but I found this video very inspiring:
J-Mac, "The Game of My Life"
M
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
This has more to do with autism, but I found this video very inspiring:
J-Mac, "The Game of My Life"
M
"This video does not exist" - the message I got after waiting for a scroll through which took several minutes. Unless I hear from others that it does exist, I will delete the link by midnight EST.
PeteCanada
AS host
[ 08. February 2008, 02:28: Message edited by: PeteCanada ]
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
Works for me too
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Wonderful video.
Also try this one, the world-famous Temple Grandin, a lady with High Functioning Autism who is the world expert in animal behaviour, here talking in general terms about the disability
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEAhMEgGOQ
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
Wonderful video.
Also try this one, the world-famous Temple Grandin, a lady with High Functioning Autism who is the world expert in animal behaviour, here talking in general terms about the disability
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEAhMEgGOQ
Since it's 73 mins long, quick summary: Temple's lecture to parents and professionals about how best to bring up children with autism or Asperger's Syndrome, hilarious anecdotes from her own situation, insights into what life is like, plenty of easy science about the brain and what's different for those with autism in the way the brain is structured. Oh, and some faith things here and there. You can fast-forward by dragging the you-tube bar at the bottom of the video so you can watch it in bits. Practical, insightful, clear, and first-hand rather than some expert guessing what it must be like.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
Amber,
Thank you so much for that link to the video of Temple Grandin. I watched the whole thing and finally feel I have an answer to the questions I've been asking here about the advantages of the autistic brain.
I'm friends with two families who are in the process of getting diagnoses for kids who may well be on the spectrum, so I'll be sending them the URL for this talk.
Lydia
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
Sorry that link did not work for some folks, Pete. I think it might have had a time limit as it seemed to be an MSNBC news video. You are welcome to take it down if it doesn't play.
Mary
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
Amber,
Thank you so much for that link to the video of Temple Grandin. I watched the whole thing and finally feel I have an answer to the questions I've been asking here about the advantages of the autistic brain.
I'm friends with two families who are in the process of getting diagnoses for kids who may well be on the spectrum, so I'll be sending them the URL for this talk.
Lydia
Glad it was useful. It's a good positive example of how it can be a diversity rather than disability, with the right structure.
PS I had to laugh about the escalators. I'd never realised why I had such problems with the things - I'm always nearly falling off the end of them rather than stepping off gracefully. Never even realised it's a common factor in autistic spectrum individuals.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Just wanted to share a bit of good news. Was up at Church House today and it looks like we're on track for getting funding for raising disability awareness for this form of autism for the CofE. Hooray! And apparently the National Autistic Sunday event was a success in raising the profile of how churches can respond to autism and disability issues.
Now what we need is some really good theology to work with that relates to this. That'll be the challenge. I'm no theologian, and the CofE senior adviser on Mission and Public Affairs was rather puzzling over it it in our meeting. Anyone have any ideas? If that's a question for a different board, which one would be best?
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Daffy Duck
Shipmate
# 13488
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
I know that the youth leaders tried loads of different strategies to manage the behaviour but nothing worked and the young lad doesn't go to youth group any more.
There has to be a point when the safety of the majority overrides the needs of one child. Or maybe not. Maybe he should have been allowed to do what he wanted and maybe hurt one of the girls who is in a wheelchair and very fragile?
What has been written above shows a complete lack of understanding of handling difficult children. It is so very often senn as the other child's problem, not my child, who has tried to do everything right. All too often, as in this case, it would seem that the parent(s) involved failed totally to have any real understanding of dealing with children, in general.
I agree that there can be a point when a child has to be removed, but it should, perhaps, be the child causing the problem, not the autistic child. Better still remove the parents and their preconceived ideas, and let the children work it out,
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Arohanui
Jayne( in aroha, hope and Faith ) nz
mailto:enyaj@xtra.co.nz
Posts: 259 | From: Gore, NZ | Registered: Mar 2008
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
If this young man comes back to youth group I shall pass your words of wisdom onto the youth leaders. He is enjoying sitting with his Dad in the main service which is pretty structured and it suits him. The wildly creative and unpredicable youth group didn't.
The youth leaders could have left the teenagers to sort it out by themselves. We have a lot of growing lads who are quite capable of looking after themselves and the girls are no pushover either. The physically fragile teenager in the wheelchair with communication difficulties could have been seriously hurt in the crossfire but if you have a laissez faire attitude to managing behaviour then you have to expect casualties.
As I've known the young lady in the wheelchair since she was a year old I wouldn't want to take the risk but I'm just a risk adverse old softy...
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daffy Duck:
I agree that there can be a point when a child has to be removed, but it should, perhaps, be the child causing the problem, not the autistic child. Better still remove the parents and their preconceived ideas, and let the children work it out,
I entirely agree that in general it should usually be the child causing the problem who should be removed, if removal becomes necessary. However, the way I read Poppy's original post, in this particular case, the autistic child WAS the child causing the problem - unless you think Poppy's child was problematic in not wanting to be hit??? (Just to make it beyond misunderstanding, I am not trying to imply that the autistic child would usually be the problematic one, just that it seems to have been that way this time.)
Lydia
[ 17. April 2008, 19:43: Message edited by: Lydia ]
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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?
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