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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Confession
ChaliceGirl
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
So soon ChaliceGirl!? You must have told the priest when your last confession was, and what did he say to you when you said, "A fortnight ago"?

As I indicated, personally I have a problem with frequent confessions.

And that "problem" is...?? [Confused]

Remember, I am fairly new to the church- not just to Anglicanism but to Christianity! Confession is a new thing for me. It's something that is helping me grow as a person, so pardon me if I "practice" a little more than your average Anglican. Cut me some slack!

PS- I might go back and confess again by month's end! [Big Grin]

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Random Cathoholic
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quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
Confession is a new thing for me. It's something that is helping me grow as a person

And that's what is important.

I make an examination of conscience daily (well, almost, I'm not perfect [Biased] ) and make my confession as and when I feel it necessary. That averages out to once a month, I suppose, but I don't keep count.

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Mother Julian

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Chalice Girl, it's been great reading this thread over the weeks. Thanks for starting it, and updating us on your journey. Frequency of confession is something I'm working on, having only started in the last year. Currently, I'm confessing three or four times a year, and it hurts my pride in having to confess the same sins time after time. Although painful, this is probably a good thing for me - the embarrassment helps me avoid occasions of sin, and I need all the help I can get! My parish priest commented recently that the general confession in the mass does not include priestly absolution (we follow the Novus Ordo), which has started me thinking that I need to make my confession more frequently.

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:


The Sacrament doesn't promise to stop us from sinning. That's our own responsibility.

Max.

I beg to differ, at least in regard to the sin we have specifically stated to the priest. It's our responsibility to discern what needs, above all, to stop, in order for us to move on in our life and faith. When we've put it into words, and into God's hands, job done.
Mmm, but in reality we do sin after confession, that's a fact. So obviously if you use that explanation then God is not doing his job properly and sin therefore disappears from this earth because God is making sure that nobody sins!

That's just not the case, we are granted forgiveness in the confessional and in exchange we promise to avoid the occasions of sin and to go out and with God's help, live a Christ-like life.
Because of our flawed nature, things don't always go to plan. Not God's fault, it's our fault so we have to come back to God and ask for forgiveness again.


Max.

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Sir Pellinore
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I'm rather glad Confession is available for those who wish it in the Anglican Communion.

For myself I find the General Confession and Absolution given by the priest during the Eucharist enough, but I can understand people, particularly with serious things on their mind, wishing to obtain a more personal absolution and some sort of spiritual direction.

Therein lies a problem. I tend to agree with Greek Orthodox practice where not every priest is allowed to automatically be a Confessor. This is a very serious and responsible position and requires someone of the highest personal integrity as he/she will be giving someone important life advice. Not every bright eyed bushy tailed ex-seminarian, all of 23 or roundabouts, IMO has proved themselves enough to be granted that privilege.

They don't have Confession in the Uniting Church, but, if they did, I think Rowen would be an excellent Confessor.

Ditto madteawoman when she is priested.

I think one important thing which needs to be borne in mind is that, if necessary, one needs to make restitution to be forgiven (money, reputation, turning oneself into the police in certain circumstances) and also needs to 'sin no more'. If one doesn't have the intention of giving up a habitual vice, however difficult and however often one backslides...?

Confession is not 'Spiritual Supawash': it requires considerable personal involvement.

In these days of 'instant religion' I wonder if it's 'just too much' for many?

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Max.
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Haha - when I was in Australia I explained Confession to Rowen using Evangelical words. Nunc was in fits of laughter when I said "Accountability Partners" [Razz]

It's true though, My Accountability Partner is the ENTIRE office of priesthood! Catholicism ROCKS!


Max.

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ChaliceGirl
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I like the General Confession too, but, I like the intimacy of the one on one confession. Being able to admit out loud my specific wrongdoings is very healing.

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ChaliceGirl
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Haha - when I was in Australia I explained Confession to Rowen using Evangelical words. Nunc was in fits of laughter when I said "Accountability Partners" [Razz]

It's true though, My Accountability Partner is the ENTIRE office of priesthood! Catholicism ROCKS!


Max.

"Accountability Partner"? That's one I never heard. Sounds so......politically correct!

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glockenspiel
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:


The Sacrament doesn't promise to stop us from sinning. That's our own responsibility.

Max.

I beg to differ, at least in regard to the sin we have specifically stated to the priest. It's our responsibility to discern what needs, above all, to stop, in order for us to move on in our life and faith. When we've put it into words, and into God's hands, job done.
Mmm, but in reality we do sin after confession, that's a fact. So obviously if you use that explanation then God is not doing his job properly and sin therefore disappears from this earth because God is making sure that nobody sins!

That's just not the case ...

Max.

But that's why I think frequent confession is problematic. If I have, say, wound down my car window and shouted a torrent of abuse at another driver for a very minor incident, then I take it to confession, then I do exactly the same thing again on my way back home, then it makes a mockery of the whole thing.
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Sir Pellinore
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Nunc, being schooled at CCSL and St Mary the Virgin, Waverley, is possibily not the best person to empathise with Evangelical explanations. [Smile]

I stand by what I said about Rowen and madteawoman in having the necessary ability to be good Confessors.

On my boyhood experience of Catholic confession in the 60s - similar to those in Joyce's 'Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man' and the wonderful Fred Schepisi film 'The Devil's Playground' - I would have to say 'Yuk!'

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PD
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I regard the teaching given in the Long Exhortation in the 1662 BCP Communion Office as the most sensible and balanced. To my mind confession is medicine not food, though for some people it is more like going to the chiropractor - something they have to do reguarly in order to stay fit.

PD

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
But that's why I think frequent confession is problematic. If I have, say, wound down my car window and shouted a torrent of abuse at another driver for a very minor incident, then I take it to confession, then I do exactly the same thing again on my way back home, then it makes a mockery of the whole thing.

But the idea is that you're supposed to try to make a fresh start, so you try not to do that!
If you do, it's not a mockery - it's you being sinful again and not trying hard enough.


Max.

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Stranger in a strange land
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
...
Therein lies a problem. I tend to agree with Greek Orthodox practice where not every priest is allowed to automatically be a Confessor. This is a very serious and responsible position and requires someone of the highest personal integrity as he/she will be giving someone important life advice. Not every bright eyed bushy tailed ex-seminarian, all of 23 or roundabouts, IMO has proved themselves enough to be granted that privilege.
...

Well in the CofE, newly ordained priests don't normally hear confessions. I think it is 3 years in orders before you do that. Not that 3 years necessarily guarantees any greater worthiness though..
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Max.
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[Confused] No, my old Anglican Priest heard confessions the day after his ordination to the priesthood!

Max.

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Random Cathoholic
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I tend to agree with Greek Orthodox practice where not every priest is allowed to automatically be a Confessor. This is a very serious and responsible position and requires someone of the highest personal integrity as he/she will be giving someone important life advice.

I am somewhat in agreement (Q: is this only a Greek custom, or is it found throughout Orthodoxy?). I've been blessed in my confessors. In 20 years of making regular confessions, I've always had the benefit of spiritual, compassionate and thoughtful priests.

Even when I've been on holiday or working away from home and have had the need to make confession, the worst I've experienced have been priests who seem to be paid according to their rate of absolutions per hour. I've certainly never experienced any of the horror stories that I've read about on the Ship, or heard about from others, but I'm sure such confessors exist. I don't know how I would respond in such a situation. Not positively, I suspect.

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ChaliceGirl
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Believe me, I am not going to use confession as a "free pass" to go behave badly. That's not my intent at all.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
So soon ChaliceGirl!? You must have told the priest when your last confession was, and what did he say to you when you said, "A fortnight ago"?

As I indicated, personally I have a problem with frequent confessions.

And that "problem" is...?? [Confused]

Remember, I am fairly new to the church- not just to Anglicanism but to Christianity! Confession is a new thing for me. It's something that is helping me grow as a person, so pardon me if I "practice" a little more than your average Anglican. Cut me some slack!

PS- I might go back and confess again by month's end! [Big Grin]

This thread has grown so long, that if you referred back to what I said in my previous post, then you missed it. Here again is what I said:-

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:I am now in the habit of making my confession only when I go to Walsingham, so I have a different confessor each time. For me, once a year is quite often enough; for I have my besetting sins which I commit over and over again, whereas certain other sins have no place in my nature. Consequently, my "sin list" is more or less identical each time I go, which is why personally, I would have a problem with frequent confessions.

I have confessed infrequently in this way for over 40 years. OK you are a new Anglican and it will take time to see what routine at making your confession is best for you. You don't say whether the priest said anything significant to you when you would have told him, "It is a fortnight since my last confession". In my experience, they insist on knowing how long ago. If he (or she)made no comment, I am surprised!

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
Believe me, I am not going to use confession as a "free pass" to go behave badly. That's not my intent at all.

This may have crossed with my new post, but I don't think that for one moment.

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ChaliceGirl
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He didn't ask how long it was since my last confession, so I didn't say anything about it. I think he may of thought it was my first time since 1. I was visibly nervous and 2. He never saw me before. He did ask me if I had a priest and parish. I said I did but I'd rather confess to someone who did not know me as well. He understood.

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Nunc Dimittis
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Quoth Sir Pellinore:
quote:
Nunc, being schooled at CCSL and St Mary the Virgin, Waverley, is possibily not the best person to empathise with Evangelical explanations.
Once upon a time, maybe. Spending time with evangelicals in this diocese and this parish, and across denominations has perhaps altered this somewhat. I would hope that I could at least attempt empathy, even if I cannot in conscience agree with certain aspects of evangelical theology. One cannot be a priest in this diocese, (or even a priest, period?) without having to let go of prejudice.

I nevertheless really appreciate the warm sentiment behind what you said.

quote:

I stand by what I said about Rowen and madteawoman in having the necessary ability to be good Confessors.

I would agree with that, for both women.
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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Random Cathoholic:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I tend to agree with Greek Orthodox practice where not every priest is allowed to automatically be a Confessor. This is a very serious and responsible position and requires someone of the highest personal integrity as he/she will be giving someone important life advice.

I am somewhat in agreement (Q: is this only a Greek custom, or is it found throughout Orthodoxy?)...
As far as I know, in Greece itself, most clergy are what you would call "worker priests" i.e. they are ordained with minimal (if any) theological training and continue to work as a shoemaker, farmer, fisherman etc.

By and large they are not treated with overwhelming respect until they prove themselves.

Greek dioceses are fairly small and the bishop nominates certain knowledgable and well-respected clergy as Confessors.

I believe, apart from higher educational levels, it is similar with Greek clergy here.

Nunc, tis best you speak for yourself. [Hot and Hormonal]

I know you but slightly and most of our related posts have been on the Sydney situation which is bizarre and polarised.

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Well...

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Panda
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
[Confused] No, my old Anglican Priest heard confessions the day after his ordination to the priesthood!

Max.

I think the 3 years' experience is a recommendation, not a rule; I have also heard 5 years. I think the idea is that any priest, even one ordained yesterday, can absolve an individual penitent, but for the most part it might be wise to grow into the position (and great responsibility) a bit first.

Especially where the priest in question is on the young side - I have known one or two fresh out of theological college who would have been genuinly shocked at what they heard, even with the benefit of a year's diaconate.

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Vaticanchic
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(But not the college I went to.)

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
He didn't ask how long it was since my last confession, so I didn't say anything about it. I think he may of thought it was my first time since 1. I was visibly nervous and 2. He never saw me before. He did ask me if I had a priest and parish. I said I did but I'd rather confess to someone who did not know me as well. He understood.

It may be a pond difference - I don't know - but here in the UK, the invariable wording of the confession prayer includes ...that since my last confession which was ...... ago, I have committed these sins.... If the frequency of making your confession is wrong, then it will be picked up from there; that is my point.

My impression is that frequent confession is encouraged by Roman Catholics and very advanced anglo-catholics and I may be wrong, but I suspect the average Anglican cleric won’t have room for penitents who make frequent confessions – a priest’s time is not unlimited and there are other duties to fulfil. I find that in Anglican churches of a more moderate churchmanship, advertised times of regular confession all the year round are in the minority. One can always arrange a confession time by appointment.

That is why I doubt that you will have ample opportunity to make frequent confession on a permanent basis.

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Doublethink.
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I always had the impression, mainly gained through the movies, that if you went to confession you did so once a week or you couldn't receive communion. Which shows the depth and scale of my ignorance I suppose.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I suspect the average Anglican cleric won’t have room for penitents who make frequent confessions – a priest’s time is not unlimited and there are other duties to fulfil.

I very much hope you're wrong; we'll wait for an "average Anglican cleric" to come along and let us know. It hardly takes very long to hear a confession; I would suspect that any cleric who doesn't have time to hear confessions needs to rethink their priorities.

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I suspect the average Anglican cleric won’t have room for penitents who make frequent confessions – a priest’s time is not unlimited and there are other duties to fulfil.

I very much hope you're wrong; we'll wait for an "average Anglican cleric" to come along and let us know. It hardly takes very long to hear a confession; I would suspect that any cleric who doesn't have time to hear confessions needs to rethink their priorities.
If they use the Confession thingy as set out in the BCP I'd say it would take the best part of 20 minutes! Their confession is a lot longer than ours!


Max.

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Sir Pellinore
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I imagine, given the fact that, certainly in Australia, the average Anglican cleric has far fewer parishioners (round about 120-160 I'd say per head) than the Roman (1200+) I would imagine there'd be plenty of time. [Ultra confused]

Using the Roman wording and method (kneeling) sparks to me of a dated Betjemanesque Anglo-Catholicism.

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Well...

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ChaliceGirl
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
He didn't ask how long it was since my last confession, so I didn't say anything about it. I think he may of thought it was my first time since 1. I was visibly nervous and 2. He never saw me before. He did ask me if I had a priest and parish. I said I did but I'd rather confess to someone who did not know me as well. He understood.

It may be a pond difference - I don't know - but here in the UK, the invariable wording of the confession prayer includes ...that since my last confession which was ...... ago, I have committed these sins.... If the frequency of making your confession is wrong, then it will be picked up from there; that is my point.

My impression is that frequent confession is encouraged by Roman Catholics and very advanced anglo-catholics and I may be wrong, but I suspect the average Anglican cleric won’t have room for penitents who make frequent confessions – a priest’s time is not unlimited and there are other duties to fulfil. I find that in Anglican churches of a more moderate churchmanship, advertised times of regular confession all the year round are in the minority. One can always arrange a confession time by appointment.

That is why I doubt that you will have ample opportunity to make frequent confession on a permanent basis.

We (the priest and I) used Form I on pg 447 of the BCP. It says nothing about saying how long it's been since your last confession.
This particular church has weekly confession scheduled every Saturday from 9:30 to 10:00am, and then Low Mass begins at 10:00am.

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Sir Pellinore
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BCP: great!

I think the Post Vatican Two name 'Reconciliation' is a more penitent empowering concept and title. [Big Grin]

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Well...

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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OK ChaliceGirl, I take your point about taking it from the BCP. Oddly - in my view - in the BCP, it is intended for the ministry of the sick, but there is no reason why it should be confined to those who are sick.

I have never come across the sacrament of private confession taken from the BCP here. Believe me, it is normal practice to tell the priest when one's last confession was. If you are able to stick to the set time at the church you mention, then that may be the best arrangement for you. Amongst other things, a regular confessor would be able to regulate the frequency of hearing your confession.

BTW the modern name of the sacrament of reconciliation is a name that I favour.

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Graven Image
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I have made my confession for a number of years now. I go at least once a year and sometimes more often. I have never even seen an actual confessional in an Episcopal church on either the east or west coast U.S.A.
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Extol
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As mentioned above, there are real confessionals at S. Clement's Philadelphia.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Sister Mary Precious:
I have made my confession for a number of years now. I go at least once a year and sometimes more often. I have never even seen an actual confessional in an Episcopal church on either the east or west coast U.S.A.

We've got two. One can be seen in this PDF: the two doors to the right of St. Anne. The other is to the left of the main-aisle doors. Two half-hour confession periods are scheduled weekly. Still, even in our parish, the number of confessions registered in the service-book averages fewer than one confession per week. About 35 last year, IIRC.

That said, I'm years overdue for mine and need to get over the fear of doing it wrong and just do it. I've even taken a Lenten series of classes in just how and why to do it, and still I haven't.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
OK ChaliceGirl, I take your point about taking it from the BCP. Oddly - in my view - in the BCP, it is intended for the ministry of the sick, but there is no reason why it should be confined to those who are sick.

I have never come across the sacrament of private confession taken from the BCP here. Believe me, it is normal practice to tell the priest when one's last confession was. If you are able to stick to the set time at the church you mention, then that may be the best arrangement for you. Amongst other things, a regular confessor would be able to regulate the frequency of hearing your confession.

BTW the modern name of the sacrament of reconciliation is a name that I favour.

I suspect that since ChaliceGirl is an American, "BCP" here means 1979, which has a separate rite for "the Reconciliation of a Penitent" distinct from the Ministry to the Sick, as does the Canadian Book of Alternative Services.

Frankly, I find the first order overly structured and long (having grown up RC, I'm not accustomed to sitting and reciting psalms with my confessor for several minutes) and prefer the "short form."

I'm puzzled by Max's estimate of "twenty minutes." The 1662 BCP rite for confession consists of the penitent's catalogue of sins, the absolution, and a collect.

I have been told that the only parish of the Anglican Church of Canada with real confessionals is St James, Vancouver. Can our Shipmates there confirm?

[ 17. July 2008, 16:27: Message edited by: LQ ]

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TheMightyMartyr
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
OK ChaliceGirl, I take your point about taking it from the BCP. Oddly - in my view - in the BCP, it is intended for the ministry of the sick, but there is no reason why it should be confined to those who are sick.

I have never come across the sacrament of private confession taken from the BCP here. Believe me, it is normal practice to tell the priest when one's last confession was. If you are able to stick to the set time at the church you mention, then that may be the best arrangement for you. Amongst other things, a regular confessor would be able to regulate the frequency of hearing your confession.

BTW the modern name of the sacrament of reconciliation is a name that I favour.

I suspect that since ChaliceGirl is an American, "BCP" here means 1979, which has a separate rite for "the Reconciliation of a Penitent" distinct from the Ministry to the Sick, as does the Canadian Book of Alternative Services.

Frankly, I find the first order overly structured and long (having grown up RC, I'm not accustomed to sitting and reciting psalms with my confessor for several minutes) and prefer the "short form."

I'm puzzled by Max's estimate of "twenty minutes." The 1662 BCP rite for confession consists of the penitent's catalogue of sins, the absolution, and a collect.

I have been told that the only parish of the Anglican Church of Canada with real confessionals is St James, Vancouver. Can our Shipmates there confirm?

I can confirm that it does, and are used somewhat often, as it was the new rector's focus when he came into the parish. Confessions are also taken in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel in a face to face setting.

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ChaliceGirl
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quote:
I suspect that since ChaliceGirl is an American, "BCP" here means 1979, which has a separate rite for "the Reconciliation of a Penitent" distinct from the Ministry to the Sick, as does the Canadian Book of Alternative Services.

That is correct.

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Still, even in our parish, the number of confessions registered in the service-book averages fewer than one confession per week.

Each penitent registers his name in the service-book when he goes to Confession?
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Extol
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I assume that Oblatus is referring to the priest recording the number of confessions heard each week in the parish register, along with in-house visits, liturgical events like Masses, offices, Baptisms, funerals, etc. ECUSA prints a big red book for this purpose.
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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:

I'm puzzled by Max's estimate of "twenty minutes." The 1662 BCP rite for confession consists of the penitent's catalogue of sins, the absolution, and a collect.

I was talking about the 1979 BOE


Max.

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Knopwood
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The 1979 "long form" is indeed ridonculous.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
I assume that Oblatus is referring to the priest recording the number of confessions heard each week in the parish register, along with in-house visits, liturgical events like Masses, offices, Baptisms, funerals, etc. ECUSA prints a big red book for this purpose.

Correct. No name recorded; just the fact that 2 confessions were heard on Sunday, or whatever. To know who it was, one would need to have seen the person entering or leaving the confessional, but then that's always possible. The content of the confession is confidential, not the identity of those who make their confession. But I'm sure priests generally don't share unnecessarily the names of those who have made their confessions.

Our 2007 annual report lists these numbers of confessions for the last three years:

  • 2005: 40 confessions
  • 2006: 35 confessions
  • 2007: 33 confessions

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Max.
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The Form of the Proper Confession (for anybody who doesn't know)

Priest: In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Penitent: Bless me Father for I have sinned, it's been __ days since my last confession. I've examined my conscience and these are my sins:
Penitent lists sins, very quickly without too much detail
for these sins and any others that I have forgotten, forgive me Father and grant me absolution and penance.

Priest comments on sins and gives advice, usually beginning with "My, my, my... you've been a busy boy then haven't you?"

Priest then asks for an act of contrition


eg. "Lord God, I have sinned against you and I have offended you. Help me to live like Jesus and not to sin again. Amen."

Priest says: God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Penitent: Thanks Father!

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aig
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What Max said - although slightly less rushed....

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ChaliceGirl
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Thanks Max for posting that.

And here is the version I was talking about:

http://vidicon.dandello.net/bocp/bocp4.htm

I think it's interesting that it ends with the priest saying:

Go (or abide) in peace, and pray for me, a sinner.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
ridonculous.

This is my new word for the day, LQ! It may not be a real word, but it jolly well ought to be! [Big Grin]

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New Yorker
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While Max's format for RC confession may be a suggested version, I doubt it is used word for word like that. Confession is the most "informal" sacrament I would think. And sometimes, if there's a long line, the priest skips the full absolution formula and just says "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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Since I was last logged on yesterday, I have sorted out the confusion surrounding BCP and I have been looking into this. I find I possess a copy of the American BCP 1979 which I brought back with me from my trip to US nearly two years ago. Thus, I was able to look up the American rite of reconciliation and form one in that book is virtually identical to the rite familiar over here. As ChaliceGirl has provided the words from that book in the mean time, I need not comment further.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I suspect the average Anglican cleric won’t have room for penitents who make frequent confessions – a priest’s time is not unlimited and there are other duties to fulfil.

I very much hope you're wrong; we'll wait for an "average Anglican cleric" to come along and let us know. It hardly takes very long to hear a confession; I would suspect that any cleric who doesn't have time to hear confessions needs to rethink their priorities.
If they use the Confession thingy as set out in the BCP I'd say it would take the best part of 20 minutes! Their confession is a lot longer than ours!


Max.

I did not suggest that Anglican clergy don't have time to hear confessions; I suggested their time is not unlimited and there is a difference. Max, depending which side of the pond you are, I am unsure whether you are referring to BCP 1662 or BCP 1979. I am unsure how you arrive at the 20 minutes you mention.

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Max.
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As I said above - 1979 BOE

Max.

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