Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
We haven't been a largely rural country for some time. The 2000 census estimates put about 70% of the country in either center city or urban areas. However, the rural vote is magnified somewhat in presidential elections due the electoral college system, since there are some states whose populations are more rural than others and each state gets electoral votes based on the sum of the number of senators and representatives in Congress.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Choirboy: We haven't been a largely rural country for some time. The 2000 census estimates put about 70% of the country in either center city or urban areas. However, the rural vote is magnified somewhat in presidential elections due the electoral college system, since there are some states whose populations are more rural than others and each state gets electoral votes based on the sum of the number of senators and representatives in Congress.
I did say comparatively.
Anyway, my point was there remain a lot of people here who don't think Kennedy or Johnson or Nixon or Ford or Carter or Reagan or Bush or Clinton or Bush or Clinton or Obama or McCain working as best they can can significantly impact global trends and they remain skeptical of those who pander to those who think they can.
I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally Posted by mjg: I keep thinking about this: ISTM part of Obama's miscue is his ignorance of what those 'small town' people want. Many of those types have little or no use for those who apparently truly believe some administration can 'regenerate' them. They'd rather be left alone.
It could be no small error in this comparatively largely rural country.
But that's exactly what Obama was saying. He's saying that he is aware of his own limitations, and the limitations of the presidency. I don't think he said anywhere that he is going to do better than the previous administrations. He's not that far along yet. He's just acknowledging that there is real frustration and that there are real difficulties facing this shrinking demographic (speaking as a small town person who has moved to a big city, I think I have some experience of this).
Will the rural and borderline-rural vote for him? Probably not, on the margins, for all kinds of cultural reasons that run far deeper than a little rhetorical misstep (race, culture, religion, history, etc.). He probably knows this too (you don't get as far as he has in politics without acquiring some modicum of political common sense), but if he can at least acknowledge their struggles, then he can show understanding, and maybe some will at least be persuaded that he's reasonable and that he has a sense of what's going on.
And I have this hunch that the ones who are "clinging" to religion in the sense that I think he refers to would most likely vote against him anyway because he's a liberal and hasn't taken a strong stance against homosexuality, legal abortion, or gun control, not to mention that he's black and very obviously not born into their particular culture. He could pander to that particular minority, but to do so would risk his rather broad base in other demographics, and for what gain?
Would these alleged "rurals" prefer that he use more half-penny rhetorical palliatives about the "good ole days" that we all know are long-gone? I don't think so. Like I said, I think they, he, and we are all past that stage. quote: Anyway, my point was there remain a lot of people here who don't think Kennedy or Johnson or Nixon or Ford or Carter or Reagan or Bush or Clinton or Bush or Clinton or Obama or McCain working as best they can can significantly impact global trends and they remain skeptical of those who pander to those who think they can.
You took the words right out of his mouth: quote: "You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," Obama said. "And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.
Where did Obama say that he was going to magically turn these small towns into thriving economies? What I get from RuthW's quote is that he simply acknowledged their reality.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Someone who was there puts Obama's remarks in context on the Huffington Post (I know, I know, I gotta broaden my reading horizons).
I've never been to Pennsylvania, but it sounds to me like he simply spoke a few uncomfortable truths that might not be all that politic but which certainly don't deserve the bullshit treatment Clinton is giving them.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
I wish I could give any kind of break to Obama's remarks. I'm trying. But as a rural Pennsylvanian, a former steelworker (laid off when my wife was carrying our 5th child), I don't "cling" to my gun or my religion to overcome my bitterness.
I don't hate Obama, really I don't. I read the article Ruth linked to. I understand the possibility that someone could have a poor choice of words, and the horrible scrutiny that he, and the other two, have to accept.
But I can't get away from the flavor of what he said. To me it displays a deep misunderstanding of the role of both guns and religion in our lives. It truly sounds elitist in the deepest sense I can think of.
I could go on, but I don't have the time.
And I may be a complete clod, but hey, pass me a straw to chew on...
Blessings,
Tom
-------------------- By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: Someone who was there puts Obama's remarks in context on the Huffington Post (I know, I know, I gotta broaden my reading horizons).
I've never been to Pennsylvania, but it sounds to me like he simply spoke a few uncomfortable truths that might not be all that politic but which certainly don't deserve the bullshit treatment Clinton is giving them.
I grew up in Western Maryland, which culturally and geographically isn't too far from the part of PA I think Obama is describing, and I think he's being reasonably accurate in his assessment.
While I do love the area and hte people, it is economically depressed and has been for the last 20 years.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
There was an interesting forum on CNN last night in which both Clinton and Obama answered many questions about their faith and its influence on their thinking. Any comments from shipmates?
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: Someone who was there puts Obama's remarks in context on the Huffington Post (I know, I know, I gotta broaden my reading horizons).
I've never been to Pennsylvania, but it sounds to me like he simply spoke a few uncomfortable truths that might not be all that politic but which certainly don't deserve the bullshit treatment Clinton is giving them.
Even more disgustingly on the part of Hillary, was her playing up her "Pennsylvania roots" including mentioning that her father was buried in PA and that "I must stop there" HOw shameless to even bring that into one's political ambition.
-------------------- "For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IconiumBound: There was an interesting forum on CNN last night in which both Clinton and Obama answered many questions about their faith and its influence on their thinking. Any comments from shipmates?
It was interesting to see evangelicals talking against Bush on torture and about the environment (It is always good to see Jim Wallace) Obama did not say anything that really surprised me. It was standard liberal Protestantism which is fine in it's way but MUCH better then the GOP alternative of course.
-------------------- "For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IconiumBound: There was an interesting forum on CNN last night in which both Clinton and Obama answered many questions about their faith and its influence on their thinking. Any comments from shipmates?
I thought Clinton was presented with more interesting questions than those Obama received. She missed an opportunity for a slam dunk when asked, "Why do you think it is that a loving God allows innocent people to suffer?" Her response was that she didn't know why, it's a personal call and the Lord is just waiting for us to respond to his call. It was a perfect chance to wax philosophic and perhaps suggest something like "God helps those who help themselves"... or maybe a few words encouraging people to take responsibility for their action with spiritual guidance... anything but "I dunno" and a few standard Christian platitudes.
Another potential show-stopper was, "Do you believe God wants you to be president? Her response: quote: Well, I could be glib and say we'll find out, but I -- I don't presume anything about God. I believe, you know, Abraham Lincoln was right in admonishing us not to act as though we knew God was on our side. In fact, our mission should be on God's side. And I have tried to take my beliefs, my faith and put it to work my entire life. And it has been gratifying to do the little I've done to try to help other people, which is really what motivates me. That's why I get up in the morning and see whether there's an individual I can help or a problem I can solve.
And I wouldn't presume to even imagine that God is going to tell me what I should do. I think that he has given me enough guidance, you know, through how I have been raised and how I have been, thankfully, given access to the Bible over so many years, commentary and the like.
So I just get up and try to do the best I can. And I think that I see through a glass darkly. I don't believe that any of us know it all and can with any confidence say that we are going to, you know, be doing God's will unless, you know, we are just out there doing our very best, hoping that we make a difference in people's lives.
And that's what I am trying to do in this campaign. That's what I would try to do as President.
A fairly noble response but somehow I doubt she "...get[s] up in the morning [to] see whether there's an individual I can help..."
As for the current tempest in a teapot over Obama's "...clinging to religion and guns" comment: I understood him to be addressing the frustration of many disenfranchised people who have simply given up on government showing any real concern for their problems. He implied that they turn to familiar subjects that offer comfort even if the subjects of religion, immigration and guns appear xenophobic in this context.
The government doesn't care, God still does. I'm unemployed, it's the fault of those illegal immigrants. The country is going to hell in a handbasket but I'll still have my rifle when the shit hits the fan. Who can deny there are many Americans thinking this way? It's an embarrassing truth but Obama isn't speaking down to them. He's possibly trying to awaken those who have given up hope to the fact there's a new sheriff in town who actually gives a damn for their condition.
-------------------- --Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by SeraphimSarov: quote: Originally posted by RuthW: Someone who was there puts Obama's remarks in context on the Huffington Post (I know, I know, I gotta broaden my reading horizons).
I've never been to Pennsylvania, but it sounds to me like he simply spoke a few uncomfortable truths that might not be all that politic but which certainly don't deserve the bullshit treatment Clinton is giving them.
Even more disgustingly on the part of Hillary, was her playing up her "Pennsylvania roots" including mentioning that her father was buried in PA and that "I must stop there" HOw shameless to even bring that into one's political ambition.
Seriously! Obama may have been pandering, but Hillary was certainly pandering! How else do you translate: quote: "I don't think he really gets it that people are looking for a president who stands up for you and not looks down on you.
Oh, you poor steel workers! You just don't get affirmed enough!
-------------------- A master of men was the Goodly Fere, A mate of the wind and sea. If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Erm...that last post was mine...
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
That's OK. Most married couples become more alike as time goes by, anyway. Why not bow to political expediency and open an account called "Gwaifrog"?
-------------------- --Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gort: The government doesn't care, God still does. I'm unemployed, it's the fault of those illegal immigrants. The country is going to hell in a handbasket but I'll still have my rifle when the shit hits the fan. Who can deny there are many Americans thinking this way? It's an embarrassing truth but Obama isn't speaking down to them. He's possibly trying to awaken those who have given up hope to the fact there's a new sheriff in town who actually gives a damn for their condition.
That's the cold honest truth.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
And Hillary's attempts to turn herself into a blue collar type are nothing but facetious (ma uncle taught me to shoot in PA... ).
Obama never pretended to be blue collar. His struggles are actually kind of uniquely his own, and he carries them with dignity rather than trying to pick up everyone else's.
I think what he said, considering where he's coming from and the sheer volume of people he's trying to connect to, was reasonably close to on target. Meanwhile, Hillary still panders and tries to pull a "just folks" act that is so threadbare it's a wonder she can keep a straight face.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: And Hillary's attempts to turn herself into a blue collar type are nothing but facetious (ma uncle taught me to shoot in PA... ).
Meanwhile, Hillary still panders and tries to pull a "just folks" act that is so threadbare it's a wonder she can keep a straight face.
Maybe she understudied with "W".
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
It is amusing to observe how much thicker Shrub's drawl gets when he's talking to a working class audience. It vanishes almost entirely when he's speaking to the National Press Club or the Council on Foreign Relations.
-------------------- When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. - C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote: originally posted by Gort: The government doesn't care, God still does. I'm unemployed, it's the fault of those illegal immigrants. The country is going to hell in a handbasket but I'll still have my rifle when the shit hits the fan. Who can deny there are many Americans thinking this way? It's an embarrassing truth but Obama isn't speaking down to them. He's possibly trying to awaken those who have given up hope to the fact there's a new sheriff in town who actually gives a damn for their condition.
In some cases, illegal immigrants are responsible for working class people loosing their jobs or not being able to make as much money as they once could. Barack Obama even admitted that in one of the earlier debates. Obama also said working class people blamed US trade policy for them loosing their job. This is also clearly true. One can counter that both immigrants and trade policy have good benefits as well. However, Wal-Mart offers those same benefits to rural communities and is hated by many people.
Very few gun owners actually have guns expecting to use them in some coming revolution. They want them for hunting, target shooting, collecting, and personal defense. Guns have nothing to do with bitterness. Obama makes a big issue of explaining their love of guns to an audience equally committed to gun control.
There is not a political party that represents the interests of the working and lower middle class in the United States. Obama was right about that. However, there is nothing to suggest to me that President Obama would do any better than anybody else. The above mentioned groups are not really part of his base.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Actually, I've recently read an article in Slate...
...that claims, among other possibilities, that it might be that what people have traditionally called "blue collar working class" doesn't really exist anymore, or at least not in the way that it has existed in this country in the past century. Maybe all of this talk about the "blue collar" Americans is chasing after an illusion constructed of historical allusions.
If so, that might explain why no party really represents the blue collar working class anymore.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Well, if Obama insulted nobody, then this much ado about nothing. However, this means he was talking to the San Francisco group about a group of people that doesn't exist. Did he lie about his experiences in Pennsylvania? Was he playing on their feelings of superiority over a class of people that doesn't exist? The traditional working class definately exists in the Rust Belt, which includes portions of Pennsylvania.
Working class means something broader than what it traditionally means. The fact that low wage earners now do different jobs than they once did does not mean they no longer exist. More people graduate from high school. In high school, most of us acquire few skills that make us any more qualified than those who didn't graduate from high school. I would say that even people who have an associate degree or technical school certificate fit into this category. I believe that the working/lower middle class exists because all of my relatives fit into the category.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zwingli: quote: Originally posted by tclune: quote: Originally posted by Zwingli: I came across a comment about a speech on financial regulation by Obama that I thought worth repeating:
"Obama’s speeches frequently include passages that flatter their listeners who aren’t quite intelligent enough to realize how shallow his thinking actually is into thinking that they are more intelligent than they are."
The amazing thing is that you were able to read that quote without applying it to the quote itself.
--Tom Clune
Would you care to drop the attempts at insults? Read the link - he explains exactly why Obama's speech on financial regulation was misinformed and not actually that clever, and why other people (who also don't understand financial regulation) might think that they were awfully clever for supporting that articulate man Obama. And yes, I really did understand the blog post on financial regulation, you arrogant prick, thanks for insinuating otherwise.
As ever two wrongs do not make a right, just as one personal attack, tclune, should not be repaid with another, Zwingli, with added offensiveness in the form of "arrogant prick".
Go pull each other's pigtails in Hell, if you must - but not here in Purgatory.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
-------------------- Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Okay, folks, just under a week till the PA primary. Time for some new predictions! I'm going to say Clinton will win by 10%.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Matins: ... Very few gun owners actually have guns expecting to use them in some coming revolution. They want them for hunting, target shooting, collecting, and personal defense. Guns have nothing to do with bitterness. Obama makes a big issue of explaining their love of guns to an audience equally committed to gun control.
Do you have any references supporting your assertion that Obama "makes a big issue of explaining their love of guns"? My reading of the relevant passage of his speech is that he was explaining their frustrated withdrawal from politics. How do you get "love of guns" from this: quote: You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.
And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
quote: Originally posted by Matins: ...There is not a political party that represents the interests of the working and lower middle class in the United States. Obama was right about that. However, there is nothing to suggest to me that President Obama would do any better than anybody else. The above mentioned groups are not really part of his base.
Have you read anything of his work in the Southside of Chicago after he graduated law school? There's plenty to suggest he could do better than (at least) the other current candidates for president. He has a firm record in organizing grassroots social programs that will serve him well as POTUS.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: Okay, folks, just under a week till the PA primary. Time for some new predictions! I'm going to say Clinton will win by 10%.
Obama in a squeaker by 2%.
-------------------- --Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
Hillary by 2% which is believed by most pundits to be inadequate for her to stay in the race but she does anyway, embarrasses many Democrats and eventually quietly fades away serving out her term as Senator (read: damned if I know. ).
This is kind of interesting: I'm skeptical any legitimate political point is being made but it offers a glimpse into Obama's roots.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Clinton by 5% or a little more. This is going to the convention.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Izzybee
Shipmate
# 10931
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: I grew up in Western Maryland, which culturally and geographically isn't too far from the part of PA I think Obama is describing, and I think he's being reasonably accurate in his assessment.
While I do love the area and hte people, it is economically depressed and has been for the last 20 years.
From someone who lives in Central MD, right up at the very top next to PA, Obama's statements rang very true with me - I could name 5 relatives (in-laws!) right now who fit his description, and I don't even have very many more in-laws than that. Going as far as my workplace and people I know locally, I'd say the description fits more than 75% of people, whether people would want to admit it or not. I've lived here for 11 years now, and seen it get worse, and it was shocking when I first came here.
As for preditions, I think Ken's right. Clinton by a little more then 5%, and this baby goes all the way to the conference.
-------------------- Hate filled bitch musings...
Posts: 1336 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Jan 2006
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
Clinton by less than 5%, but Obama takes NC and IN and clinches it before the convention.
I know, I'm dreaming.
-------------------- I upped mine. Up yours. Suffering for Jesus since 1966. WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
What an incredible waste of airspace that debate was tonight. Having some mousey woman on video asking Obama about his fucking flag pin? This is an issue? Give me a break, ABC.
[Too annoyed to code right.] [ 17. April 2008, 02:52: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
-------------------- Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
Hillary by 5% or 6% in PA (again, like Texas, after she was 30% ahead in polls not too long ago) but Obama rebounds big in IN and NC. I don't see Hillary conceding before the Convention but God knows I wish she would and have some sense of honor or grace. [ 17. April 2008, 03:00: Message edited by: SeraphimSarov ]
-------------------- "For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re the flag pin:
It's not an issue for me, because I'm not a flag-waver. However, I've heard it mentioned before. The flag is very important to many people, especially during a war. FWIW.
Re wanting Hillary to concede:
Again, why not just let it all play out and let everyone vote? To all who suggest this and dislike Hillary: if their situations were reversed and Obama were behind, would it be ok for people to push him to concede? You know the kinds of accusations that would be made if that happened.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
I understand your point, Golden Key. But when Obama has enough committed votes to guarantee that he will get the nomination in the first round, she needs to gracefully bow out.
I heard that Obama picked up three more Superdelegates in the last two days. Have any of them defected from Obama in favor of Clinton? I didn't think so.
-------------------- I upped mine. Up yours. Suffering for Jesus since 1966. WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Clinton in PA by 8%. However, after another double-digit shellacking in North Carolina, and an effectively split contest in Indiana, enough super delegates, who wish to use the convention to rebuild party unity, quietly speak to Clinton who finally withdraws, bowing to the inevitable. Obama picks a woman (quite probably not Clinton) as a running mate.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
If Clinton wins PA...then not very much different will change. And we'll be waiting ANOTHER six weeks until 3rd June when Montana and South Dakota finish things off...
[ETA: inserted "not" - rather crucially for semantic reasons!] [ 17. April 2008, 20:25: Message edited by: Orb ]
-------------------- “You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
I listened to the debate this afternoon on PBS. What a mistake. I am so fed up with the press and their need to endlessly beat idiotic dead horses I could scream. Flag pins?! Who the hell cares about flag pins? and if they do, well their heads are in the sand. (Which seems to be the case with the majority of Americans today).
What about the war? What about the disastrous economy? No they ask over and over again about pins.
Time to move abroad.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
With poll results saying that 83% of the country feel we are headed in the wrong direction, I don't think these kinds of junk issues will have the currency they have had in prior elections.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I heard that 'Do you believe in the flag' question on the radio and came here to ask about it: but it seems it's been somewhat covered. I understand some people consider 'the flag' an issue of great importance [here as much as anyone else], but I must confess some bewilderment as to watching what pins people wear and making decisions based on that.
I take it most politicians have taken to wearing a US flag pin recently?
And you, o beloved cousins across the Pacific, have my sympathy: I am tired after the 6 weeks of (formal) electioning we get here -- I do not know how you cope with a year!
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote: I take it most politicians have taken to wearing a US flag pin recently?
Yes, it's been pretty much de rigeur for politicians since the Reagan years.
-------------------- Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote: I take it most politicians have taken to wearing a US flag pin recently?
Yes, it's been pretty much de rigeur for politicians since the Reagan years.
-------------------- Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
de rigueur. Great, my computer sends out two misspelled posts. My embarrassment is complete.
-------------------- Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
That long? I had assumed it may've been since "The War on Terror".
Was there a particular incident during Reagan's presidency that caused this? [Please excuse any ignorance...but I am on the other-side of the world if that is any excuse. ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
It has been an indespensible accessory to the costume of Republicans, but until 9/11, it was favored by few Democrats, thinking, I suppose, that it is cheap patriotism. Similarly, Republican speeches have customarily ended with a loud,"God bless America."
Draping oneself in the flag worked very well for Bush I. That and subtle racism (a la Willie Horton) and grossly inept camapigning by his opponent handed Mr. Bush the election on a silver platter.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
I suspect that the roots of the flag pin can be traced to Mr. Nixon's strategy to make the GOP THE party of God, country, law and order, and "states' rights."
Greta
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Comper's Child: Flag pins?! Who the hell cares about flag pins?
Preach. It.
Could there be any stronger indicator of how useles the mainstream media has gotten, in many ways? Judas they need to get some real tough questions in there.
-------------------- Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
I had a thought about the flag pin. I think if they are going to wear it, they have to do the military thing and put it on with no backing and let 10 soldiers pound it in. If they can take that, they can wear it.
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: Okay, folks, just under a week till the PA primary. Time for some new predictions! I'm going to say Clinton will win by 10%.
Hillary by 5. Loses the war though....
Do people still think Hillary's got a prayer in the convention? All the math seems to point one way. Or am I missing something?
-------------------- Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mad Geo: quote: Originally posted by Comper's Child: Flag pins?! Who the hell cares about flag pins?
Preach. It.
Could there be any stronger indicator of how useles the mainstream media has gotten, in many ways? Judas they need to get some real tough questions in there.
No shit. I quickly turned off the debate in favor of watching "Rome" on DVD and then the American Idol results show -- probably both are more relevant to my interests. The reviews today make me think I made the right choice.
Does Clinton have a prayer at the convention? I don't think so. I read something today (on Slate? Huffington Post? not sure ...) saying that she's hammering Obama now because she would rather see the GOP win in '08 than Obama because then she could run in '12, whereas if Obama is prez he'll be the nominee in '12, and by '16 she'll be too old to run. I don't know if at 68 she will be too old, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's willing to the Democrats' chances under a bus just so she could have another shot in four years.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Heh. Apparently the criticism of the debate was fairly blistering.
Yeah, I think she's lost this one. I just would be amazed if she was so cut-throat as to throw the party overboard. Even I don't think THAT lowly of her and Bill, and I think they are pretty cut-throat.
All this criticism leveled at her and Obama for keeping this competition running I think is wrong. I think the Convention will bring a big WHOOSH of interest back, that it will make for some great political TV (a miracle in itself) and will make the Republican convention as boring as it is doomed to be with the Old Fart's club in force. Maybe I'm an optimist, I dunno, but I gotta think there is no bad publicity, even in elections and Zeus knows they are getting shiploads of attention from this electoral battle.
This is some good eatin'!
-------------------- Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
Ahhh. "Rome" on DVD. What a delicious guilty pleasure. I was so sad when we reached the end of season 2.
We left the telly off until the debate was over. My faith (or, rather, lack of) in Charles and George was validated. 50 minutes before any substantive questions were asked? Good grief.
At least "Men in Trees" was good
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Last night I watched Charlie Rose's interview of Mr. Bloomberg. Obama MUST get that man on his ticket. I was astonished! If he were to run for President as an Independent, he could be a serious threat to both McCain and Obama, and perhaps we could have a logical and honest discussion of our major problems.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mad Geo: I had a thought about the flag pin. I think if they are going to wear it, they have to do the military thing and put it on with no backing and let 10 soldiers pound it in. If they can take that, they can wear it.
Actually, serious military hazing of elected officials and appointees could be an excellent idea. Especially if they let more and more people hit you the more times you are re-elected. Preferrably in a logorithmic progression.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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