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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
Either Obama has a faulty memory on the topic or he was doing what many politicians do with his original denial: being disingenuous. Regardless, IMO if Clinton or McCain were in a comparable situation they'd have taken more media heat.
I take your point. However, in all honesty, I find the Rev. Wright matter (or the Weatherman friend, for that matter) kind of silly. The one thing on this level that I would like to see properly investigated is his relationship with the slumlord who was his financial backer. That seems directly relevant and important to understand.
I would not want to be held accountable for everything my friends have said or done in their lifetimes, including the views and statemetns of some of the pastors I have had over the years. This just seems like a red herring to me. I'm not even particularly sympathetic to jumping on what someone's spouse says, with the possible exception of Bill Clinton, who is clearly a political partner in that marriage.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
However, in all honesty, I find the Rev. Wright matter (or the Weatherman friend, for that matter) kind of silly.
It's silly unless it demonstrates dishonesty and the jury is obviously still out on that. I just keep thinking back to Clinton saying he never inhaled which was a portent.
And bonabri: thanks for your thoughtful contribution to this thread. It's encouraging to be reminded there are people here who approach my level of arrogance as somehow it helps me slog on.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
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Posted
I do not condemn Obama, but given the disingenuousness of American politics, I need something to decide whom to vote for. Following the media spin is a sure way to come to the wrong conclusion.
This is intended as a show of the reasoning behind a vote, not as an accusation of crimes or morality. Remember I do think he's the best of the three candidates.
Bill Ayers may regret some of the things he did, but as recently as 2001, he still supported violence as a political tool. As far as I know he still does. I'm not sure about "respected", but that certainly gives him street cred.
When the man publicly rejects violence and apologizes and makes amends, I'll consider dropping the terrorist name calling.
Golden Key, about the McCain carrier thing, you asked for an example of bad luck. I don't hold McCain responsible for the accident, but his plane and his bombs killed people. Once again this is in support for the reasoning for my vote, not about the man.
He was part of an organization which got sloppy. It doesn't reflect on him poorly, but it doesn't inspire confidence either. If the goal were to elect someone who was so-so to the job, I would have little trouble voting for McCain.
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DmplnJeff:
... I don't hold McCain responsible for the accident, but his plane and his bombs killed people.
Well, duh! That's what it was designed for.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DmplnJeff:
... I don't hold McCain responsible for the accident, but his plane and his bombs killed people.
By saying which it sure likes you're holding him responsible. It's like saying, "I'm not holding you responsible for the fatal car accident you were in, but your car killed a man." If it was an accident and I'm not responsible, then the fact it was my car that killed a man should have no bearing whatsoever on your estimation of me, and one would wonder exactly what your motivation would be for adding the final clause?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DmplnJeff:
Golden Key, about the McCain carrier thing, you asked for an example of bad luck. I don't hold McCain responsible for the accident, but his plane and his bombs killed people. Once again this is in support for the reasoning for my vote, not about the man.
Jeff, you specifically said "McCain managed to blow up his own aircraft carrier". Either you're blaming him, or you're being hyperbolic/careless, ISTM.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
McCain may not have destroyed a carrier, but he piloted three planes that crashed. One of them hit power lines, a second missed the runway and smashed into a body of water instead, the third apparently had a flame-out. Bad luck? Pilot error?
I certainly wouldn't set foot in a commerical flight if I knew the pilot had such a record, but for some reason, the Navy let him keep flying.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
McCain may not have destroyed a carrier, but he piloted three planes that crashed. One of them hit power lines, a second missed the runway and smashed into a body of water instead, the third apparently had a flame-out. Bad luck? Pilot error?
I certainly wouldn't set foot in a commerical flight if I knew the pilot had such a record, but for some reason, the Navy let him keep flying.
Which is inexplicable but hardly relevant to his presidential aspirations. Not everybody can be a good pilot; that doesn't make them a bad (potential) president.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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CorgiGreta
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# 443
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Posted
I totally agree, but it seems to me that political campaigns are all too often pitched battles over the irrelevant.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by DmplnJeff:
Golden Key, about the McCain carrier thing, you asked for an example of bad luck. I don't hold McCain responsible for the accident, but his plane and his bombs killed people. Once again this is in support for the reasoning for my vote, not about the man.
Jeff, you specifically said "McCain managed to blow up his own aircraft carrier". Either you're blaming him, or you're being hyperbolic/careless, ISTM.
Keep the personal attacks (shown in bold) out of it please. Not in Purgatory.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Apologies, Duo and Jeff. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
FWIW, I was referring to Jeff's arguments and style. I did not intend to insult Jeff.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
I totally agree, but it seems to me that political campaigns are all too often pitched battles over the irrelevant.
Hard to argue with that, particularly with the circus this one has been.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
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Posted
Golden Key, your both forgiven and accurate.
All this has been in support of my judgement that McCain is unlucky. I attach no moral significance to being unlucky.
Yet not all of leadership is about morality. Preparation, intelligence, the ability to attract good people, and, yes, luck are also good things to have in a leader.
Character flaws stick in people's minds, so these other virtues are often underrated by the press.
Why is luck important? Well sometimes bad luck is just that. But sometimes it's an indication of other problems. A flameout could happen to anyone. But pilots who don't take good care of their aircrews are more likely to have it happen.
Actions speak.
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
I totally agree, but it seems to me that political campaigns are all too often pitched battles over the irrelevant.
Greta
In all seriousness, isn't that the modern method of campaigning? Keep bringing up irrelevant details about your opponent so that you don't have to discuss issues or take a stand?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Swish
Shipmate
# 8566
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Posted
Not much has been made on here of Wright's comments and Obama's reaction. From what I've seen, it seems as though Obama is genuinely hurt and angry about the comments, almost as though he feels betrayed. Bur others (not just the usual lot, but commentators I respect) are interpreting this as a political move.
And, as much as I hate doing this, do you think this will stop the story? Gain credibility with the White Working Class Obama was supposed to have lost? Or even lose Black votes, as Justin Webb seems to suggest?
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Sorry Ted. I was concentrating too hard on looking holy.
Posts: 114 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Sep 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Swish:
Not much has been made on here of Wright's comments and Obama's reaction. From what I've seen, it seems as though Obama is genuinely hurt and angry about the comments, almost as though he feels betrayed. But others (not just the usual lot, but commentators I respect) are interpreting this as a political move.
Matt Frei had an interesting column on the BBC website about this. One of my favorite quotes from the piece: quote:
Watching Jeremiah Wright's cross between stand up comedy, loony lefty diatribe and hellfire sermon at the National Press Club in Washington DC had the same effect as witnessing one of those really embarrassing best man's speeches at a wedding.
It leaves the guests choking on their salmon, thinking: "... and this guy is your best friend?"
FWIW
--Tom Clune
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I'm reading Abraham Heschel's book "The Prophets" right now, so when the Jeremiah Wright-Obama thing erupted yesterday, I immediately hearkened back to the relationship between the prophet Isaiah and King Hezekiah in the Hebrew Bible.
A prophet speaks truth that no one wants to hear, and the politician finds himself caught between prophetic truth and political expediency.
[ 30. April 2008, 14:19: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I'm reading Abraham Heschel's book "The Prophets" right now, so when the Jeremiah Wright-Obama thing erupted yesterday, I immediately hearkened back to the relationship between the prophet Isaiah and King Hezekiah in the Hebrew Bible.
A prophet speaks truth that no one wants to hear, and the politician finds himself caught between prophetic truth and political expediency.
To my mind, the problem with the analogy is that Wright seems to be drawn to the stage like a moth to a flame. It is far from clear that there is anything of substance in his "prophetic" announcements about the US govenment spreading AIDS, etc. The fact that people don't want to listen to him does not establish that he is speaking the truth.
--Tom Clune
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
In his interview with Bill Moyers, I tink that the Rev. Wright came across as calm, restrained, thoughtful, and conciliatory.
Could it be that in a one-to-one (albeit with a large number of viewers) situtation, he goes into soothing pastoral mode, while in public speaking, he is transformed into a ranting, pulpit-pounding, salvation and damnation prophet/evangelist?
Greta
Greta
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I'm reading Abraham Heschel's book "The Prophets" right now, so when the Jeremiah Wright-Obama thing erupted yesterday, I immediately hearkened back to the relationship between the prophet Isaiah and King Hezekiah in the Hebrew Bible.
A prophet speaks truth that no one wants to hear, and the politician finds himself caught between prophetic truth and political expediency.
To my mind, the problem with the analogy is that Wright seems to be drawn to the stage like a moth to a flame. It is far from clear that there is anything of substance in his "prophetic" announcements about the US govenment spreading AIDS, etc. The fact that people don't want to listen to him does not establish that he is speaking the truth.
--Tom Clune
His rantings about AIDS are nonsense, but understandable if one considers his context in Black Liberation Theology. Liberation theology emphasizes that one must be critical, even suspicious of those in authority. Heschel in his book says that prophets engage in prophetic truth, not objective truth. Meaning that they engage in hyperbole and exaggeration and one has to sift through the rhetoric to find the central message.
Wright is deeply angered by the treatment of African Americans by TPTB. Because of that, he, like many people lashes out, sometimes with outrageous accusations. I'm not justifying his comments about HIV, nor saying they are correct. I'm just saying I understand why he would make such statements given his location as a self-proclaimed African-affirming liberation theologian.
I agree with you in that I think he is a bit attracted to the camera. He probably thinks this is the one chance he has of commanding the attention of all of America.
[ 30. April 2008, 14:53: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I agree with you in that I think he is a bit attracted to the camera. He probably thinks this is the one chance he has of commanding the attention of all of America.
Rather hard to gainsay that belief, I'd think.
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
Here's an interesting take in The New Republic:
Why'd Obama Join Trinity in the First Place?
quote:
So, if you buy Wright's account--and it rings pretty true to me--it was his intellectualism and social progressivism that won Obama over. Certainly it's hard to imagine that someone like Obama, who came from a progressive, secular background, would have felt genuinely comfortable in a socially conservative, anti-intellectual church. The problem for Obama is that the flip-side of these virtues was a minister with a radical worldview and a penchant for advertising it loudly.
Which, put another way, means that Obama's decision to join Trinity was probably the opposite of cynical. Trinity was the place where, despite the potential pitfalls--and he must have noticed them early on--Obama felt most true to himself [as a worshipper].
During most of my time living in Chicago, I was a member of Fourth Presbyterian Church on Michigan Avenue. Although Fourth Pres is a very different church than Trinity UCC -- very stiff-upper-lip and formal, with a very dry and academic style of preaching -- it also has a number of similarities. Both churches are about the same size, they're both very influential in Chicago and beyond, they both place a strong emphasis on intellectual vigor and critical thinking, and until recently they were each headed by a very prominent "A list" senior pastor. Trinity had Rev. Wright; Fourth Pres had Rev. John Buchanan.
I joined Fourth Pres for a number of personal reasons (and several years later ended up switching denominations for a number of other personal reasons), but John Buchanan wasn't one of them. He's a nice guy and an excellent preacher, but given the size of the congregation, I think I only met him maybe once or twice during my entire six years at that church. The vast majority of my interaction at Fourth Church involved other lay people in the various groups I belonged to, and other clergy at the church. Buchanan was barely even on my radar screen during most of my time there, and I'd hate to think that some out-of-context snippet from one of his sermons would be used to demonize me for being a member of the congregation.
Now I attend a large cathedral in the Episcopal Church, and I have many reasons for doing so. Should I be made to answer for every sermon made by the Dean of the cathedral or the Bishop of New York? Should every Roman Catholic be held accountable for every utterance of their priest or the pope from the pulpit? If so, that's a dangerous road we've started down.
I can't speak for Obama, but I wonder if he's not in a similar dilemma. There could be any number of valid reasons why Obama joined Trinity and chose to stay there, and Rev. Wright may or may not have had anything to do with those reasons. Obama's reasons for joining Trinity and his personal relationship with Wright shouldn't be anybody else's business, but my point is that there is much more to the life of a church than its senior pastor.
Regardless of how you feel about the politics or about Wright, it's very difficult whenever a parishioner has a falling-out with a longtime pastor. It must be especially hurtful for Obama that this has happened so publicly, and appears to the result of his pastor publicly humiliating him. IMO, Wright's self-aggrandizement and mocking tone on TV was far more offensive and unchristian than anything he said about AIDS or 9/11. I'd expect better from a member of the clergy from a mainline Christian denomination.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for the Obama family during what must be a very difficult time.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Swish:
do you think this will stop the story? Gain credibility with the White Working Class Obama was supposed to have lost?
I've been having a bad feeling about Obama's candidacy for a while now. I've long thought that it would only take a terrorist attack in which Americans were killed to swing the vote firmly McCain's way.
I had similar misgivings when someone posted in about March about some other hopeful whose name I can't even remember who was a great speaker but lost out to LBJ or someone.
The Democrats are at each others' throats and voters have increasing reasons to be nervous. I think the ballot box will turn out to be more conservative than the talk.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
IMO, Wright's self-aggrandizement and mocking tone on TV was far more offensive and unchristian than anything he said about AIDS or 9/11. I'd expect better from a member of the clergy from a mainline Christian denomination.
I have a similar reaction, but I confess to also feeling a bit of sympathy for Rev. Wright. We live in a society that is crazy for celebrity. As was mentioned above, the man was suddenly presented with an opportunity to catapult himself into the national limelight. An awful lot of us would be seduced by the same thing into being every bit as big of a fool. I don't know whether this whole fiasco counts as tragedy, comedy, or something else, but the fallen humanity of it all sure seems familiar.
--Tom Clune
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
As was mentioned above, the man was suddenly presented with an opportunity to catapult himself into the national limelight. An awful lot of us would be seduced by the same thing into being every bit as big of a fool.
Exactly: I reckon the approbation of the MSM is heady stuff.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I dunno. I can't help wondering if this isn’t actually going to be good for the party having a great convention where it simply makes for riveting TV.
I hope that you're right as far as public opinion is concerned, but the finances are sobering. The McCain campaign might be relatively poor right now, but the Republican party is rich; while on the left, the Clinton and Obama campaigns are rich, and the party is poor. But it seems to be the forlorn task of the party to attempt to keep McCain from running roughshod through the country completely unopposed. Meanwhile, the big bucks are being burnt up by two primary candidates opposing each other. They've raised plenty of money from small contributors, but after this kind of spree how many will feel like coughing up more in the fall? Not I.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
the man was suddenly presented with an opportunity to catapult himself into the national limelight. An awful lot of us would be seduced by the same thing into being every bit as big of a fool.
We hear many more warnings from pulpits about greed and riches than about a desire for fame and celebrity. These two desires are closely related, equally corrosive, and chronically over-hyped in secular culture. As far as clergy are concerned, I'll save my sympathy for the repentant and recovering fame-seekers. Christianity is besmirched enough as it is by gaudy, opportunistic televangelists. We don't need one more.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ps118
Shipmate
# 13655
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Posted
I'm new. I've read at least 5 pages back. I apologize if I've missed things. Anyway, here goes. From today's lead editorial in the New York Times:
"It is an injustice, a legacy of the racist threads of this nation’s history, but prominent African-Americans are regularly called upon to explain or repudiate what other black Americans have to say, while white public figures are rarely, if ever, handed that burden."
I have sympathy for both Obama and Wright these days. He does seem to have jumped a bit too enthusiastically at the opportunity to be before the cameras, much more in the speeches than with Bill Moyers. I'm not sure what to make of his contention that this is an attack on the black church. For one thing, it's the UCC, a predominantly white denomination. I'm not really sure where Wright fits in the spectrum of black ministers in the US. I think there's a lot of truth to the oft-quoted observation, trotted out by Obama, that 11AM on Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in the US. Less so than it once was, but I think fundamental misunderstandings remain. I'm white. I've been to white churches, black churches, and mixed churches, and I've read about the black church. I wouldn't be comfortable generalizing, except to say that I think there's a gulf between the two. I wonder if, as the NYT implies, the uproar over Wright isn't at least part racism in its religious form.
Posts: 185 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ps118:
I'm not sure what to make of his contention that this is an attack on the black church. For one thing, it's the UCC, a predominantly white denomination.
A couple of things about this -- one, the UCC's congregational polity gives the congregations have an extremely high degree of autonomy, and two, Wright and his church make a big deal about Trinity being a black church. But I think it's an attack on him and perhaps his black church, not upon "the black church" in general (as if they were all the same). Black ministers here in LA are apparently not on board with what Wright has said and what he's doing.
And if Obama is not the nominee, I will blame Wright and will quite honestly hope he has to answer to God for throwing Obama under the bus so he can have his 15 minutes of fame-whoring.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Fox News goes with Wright 24-7. Most other sources have stopped mentioning him, except for his reemergence at the National Press Club, which too will fade in all respected sources.
Fox continues to beat the dead horse in an attempt to give the conservative base some reason to turn out in November. That is, since McCain is not a reason for them to turn out in November.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And if Obama is not the nominee, I will blame Wright and will quite honestly hope he has to answer to God for throwing Obama under the bus so he can have his 15 minutes of fame-whoring.
Just be careful that you don't ask for a standard of judgment that you are unable to endure yourself. Personally, I pray that God welcomes him with loving arms and ignores his endless faults...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ps118
Shipmate
# 13655
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Posted
RuthW, I didn't know, or rather hadn't considered UCC congregational polity and the independence of individual parishes. I wasn't even seeing my own assumptions based on my experience with more hierarchical denominations. The UCC allows the blessing of same-sex unions, doesn't it? I keep fearing that at some point, the folks at Fox will start saying that on top of everything else the Rev. Wright also marries gay people. But, maybe he doesn't or hasn't. He's not the whole UCC any more than the UCC is all him. Homosexuality is one horror they haven't linked him with yet. Maybe Bill's going to claim Barack made a pass at him.
Now that I think about it, you're right Choirboy, it did disappear until Wright came out to claim his 15 minutes. It's returned with such a vengeance this week. The Obamas were on the Today show this morning talking about it and it got a few segments on the News Hour on PBS. I won't blame Wright if Obama loses the nomination. I'll blame this country's racism and xenophobia. I agree that the attack is on a black church, not the black church, as Wright claims, but I'm not sure there would be an attack at all if it were a/the white church, which the white majority media understands better. It's not as if Wright was the only one to claim that 9/11 was punishment for something in the United States.
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Fox News goes with Wright 24-7.
I don't get Fox but I have to ask: how do you know this?
Probably more to the point, is everything Fox reports inherently flawed? I thought the transcript of the Chris Wallace interview revealed at least a half decent effort on his part.
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ps118:
I agree that the attack is on a black church, not the black church, as Wright claims, but I'm not sure there would be an attack at all if it were a/the white church, which the white majority media understands better. It's not as if Wright was the only one to claim that 9/11 was punishment for something in the United States.
ISTM that the response of both the media and the electorate was one of being "caught off guard." Most folks are fully aware of the dingbat views of people like Pat Robertson. It isn't that they approve, but that they have already absorbed them. Rev. Robertson's inability to get traction when running for POTUS shows the extent to which he fails to reflect the country's values.
But we are fully familiar with the kind of crap that he spews. Rev. Wright was saying things that people were unprepared for. They just didn't know that mainline black churches had people with such views holding forth from the pulpit on Sunday. That's what made it news, and that's what gave it such impact with the electorate -- it raised a big question as to whether Obama was the person they thought he was. As this thing settles down, I expect it will be just a blip on the radar.
My guess is that he'll still get the nomination, and by having gotten this out in time for people to digest before the election, I rather suspect that it won't be the deciding factor -- which it well could have been if it had come out at the end of September. I don't know whether he'll end up winning, but I don't think that Rev. Wright will be the determiner of the election.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And if Obama is not the nominee, I will blame Wright and will quite honestly hope he has to answer to God for throwing Obama under the bus so he can have his 15 minutes of fame-whoring.
Just be careful that you don't ask for a standard of judgment that you are unable to endure yourself.
Thanks for the little sermon. Not.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
OK, now that I'm a little less angry...
quote:
Originally posted by Ps118:
RuthW, I didn't know, or rather hadn't considered UCC congregational polity and the independence of individual parishes. I wasn't even seeing my own assumptions based on my experience with more hierarchical denominations. The UCC allows the blessing of same-sex unions, doesn't it? I keep fearing that at some point, the folks at Fox will start saying that on top of everything else the Rev. Wright also marries gay people. But, maybe he doesn't or hasn't. He's not the whole UCC any more than the UCC is all him. Homosexuality is one horror they haven't linked him with yet. Maybe Bill's going to claim Barack made a pass at him.
Each UCC congregation takes a separate decision about whether they are going to be what's called an Open and Affirming (ONA) church. Wright's is not listed on the UCC website as being an ONA church, but I read a news report the other day that said gay couples were seen to be holding hands in church. So I guess that will be made much of sooner or later.
quote:
I won't blame Wright if Obama loses the nomination. I'll blame this country's racism and xenophobia. I agree that the attack is on a black church, not the black church, as Wright claims, but I'm not sure there would be an attack at all if it were a/the white church, which the white majority media understands better. It's not as if Wright was the only one to claim that 9/11 was punishment for something in the United States.
No, the other ones were right-wing nut jobs instead of left-wing nut jobs. If there were a candidate still in the race closely associated with Pat Robertson or the other idiot whose name escapes me at the moment who talked of God having removed his bubble of protection and allowed 9/11 to happen, I'm sure that candidate would be getting grilled for it, especially if he/she were a Democrat. I'm sure you're correct about the mainstream media, but I don't think they and most of the electorate are on board with the notion that God let some kind of Sodom and Gomorrah scenario play out because this nation has moved slowly, haltingly toward acceptance of gay people.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I'm reading Abraham Heschel's book "The Prophets" right now, so when the Jeremiah Wright-Obama thing erupted yesterday, I immediately hearkened back to the relationship between the prophet Isaiah and King Hezekiah in the Hebrew Bible.
A prophet speaks truth that no one wants to hear, and the politician finds himself caught between prophetic truth and political expediency.
To my mind, the problem with the analogy is that Wright seems to be drawn to the stage like a moth to a flame. It is far from clear that there is anything of substance in his "prophetic" announcements about the US govenment spreading AIDS, etc. The fact that people don't want to listen to him does not establish that he is speaking the truth.
--Tom Clune
Interesting. We've been talking about this a lot at school lately. I'm ambivalent on the guy, myself, I'll admit primarily because of the AIDS comment (I can see where he's coming from with 9-11 and "God Damn America"). And then a black guy at school told me that he wasn't literally saying that AIDS was a government conspiracy, but was drawing an analogy from the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis. My classmate then honestly asked me if I'd ever trust them not to do that sort of thing again.
There's also a sense that most of the quotes that are raising the ire of the press were yanked out of context in a way that distorted the meaning, and that it's all pretty reasonable by the style of the "black church" and that the only reason anyone's upset is because they haven't heard it before, and maybe they should hear about it. As the pastor himself asked a reported, "So, have you read the whole sermon?"
It might be comparable to proof texting from an isolated line of Paul or Deuteronomy (not to say Wright is scripture). Everyone knows the kind of hell you can wreak with badly thought out exegesis.
Honestly, I think the whole thing's a bit of a teapot tempest.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Ps118
Shipmate
# 13655
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Posted
Lots of great points. I think it ought to be a teapot tempest, but I'm afraid it isn't and it won't be. Honestly, I didn't hear anything in the Rev. Wright's comments that surprised me or caught me off guard, including the AIDS conspiracy theories, with Tuskeegee as proof. I've spent a lot of this long, long campaign puzzled at how the media and the left have been caught off guard. Certainly it has been and likely will continue to be interesting. I guess it's just been so long since things weren't predictable and staged. Do people think this is a good development? I think it must have changed something and it must be an indication of significant societal change that there's a choice between a woman and a person of color. Sometimes, I just find it depressing because it seems to strengthen people's biases and their denial about them. I try to examine my reactions, and I've seen a lot of misogyny in myself when it comes to Hillary Clinton, especially since I'm a woman. Maybe the election is forcing a much-needed national conversation on race, but I'm not sure it's forcing enough of a conversation on gender, and in both, it may be too little too late.
Posts: 185 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2008
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Ps118:
Certainly it has been and likely will continue to be interesting. I guess it's just been so long since things weren't predictable and staged.
Are you sure this isn't somehow staged? Predictability is another matter, but I don't think anyone who's operating at that level of politics does anything that isn't on some level planned out in advance.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Ps118
Shipmate
# 13655
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Posted
True, true, Bullfrog. I imagine nearly all the candidates' behavior is staged, or at least calculated. I wouldn't expect anything else. I think we could end up with a less staged convention than we've seen in a while. And, predicting the nominee is beyond me. Hillary's still around for a reason, impossible as the numbers may seem.
Posts: 185 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2008
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Under their best-case scenario, Clinton advisers believe she will be about 100 delegates behind Obama when the primary season ends on June 3.
But if the mathematics of the race has not changed, aides believe the psychology has.
Before, the Clintons knew they were fighting a story line that said she could never win unless superdelegates take the nomination away from a popular African-American who came in first.
Now they hope that they have subtly shifted to a new story line: Superdelegates must think twice before bestowing the nomination on an increasingly controversial politician who has missed repeated opportunities to wrap up the contest with a decisive, big-state victory.
snip
“She’s relaxed and she’s in her groove,” crowed a senior Clinton aide who had been downbeat. “The story of this race is these twists and turns.”
And for the moment, the twists have turned in her direction.
This includes the fact that April was the second-best fundraising month for her so far this campaign, helping ease a severe financial drought. She won the endorsement of North Carolina Gov. Mike Easley.
And two recent polls have buoyed her. An Associated Press-Ipsos poll showed her beating Republican John McCain 50 percent to 41 percent while Obama was running 46 percent to 44 percent in the same matchup. A Fox News poll Wednesday showed her outperforming Obama among independent voters.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
An interesting take on the Rev. Wright situation: Rev. Wright threw himself onto a grenade to save Obama.
quote:
[Wright] said over a year ago that Obama would need to distance himself from him. Since Obama couldn’t bring himself to do it, Wright did it for him.
If the author's premise is correct, then Wright is a saint.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
... Clinton advisers believe she will be about 100 delegates behind Obama when the primary season ends on June 3.
Sounds like time to concede.
quote:
Now they hope that they have subtly shifted to a new story line: Superdelegates must think twice before bestowing the nomination on an increasingly controversial politician who has missed repeated opportunities to wrap up the contest with a decisive, big-state victory.
"Increasingly controversial"? You must be referring to the recently televised rant by Rev. Wright. I believe the "controversy" over this retired pastor, (who relegated himself to the lunatic fringe when he said the AIDS virus was a US government conspiracy against African-Americans) was handled quite admirably when Obama clearly denounced and repudiated Wright's statements. Do you think Wright's madness should be any more relevant to the course of this election than McCain being "very honored" with John Hagee's endorsement? (for those of you unfamilar with Hagee, he's the prophet of God who claims Hurricane Katrina was punishment for a scheduled gay pride parade in New Orleans) Other Hagee insights.
I would think by now, your average Joe and Nancy American Voter were able to look beyond idiot, fundamentalist christian leaders when considering qualities most important in their President. You need only look to Bush for an example supporting the wisdom of right-wing fundamentist endorsement in American politics. quote:
And two recent polls have buoyed her. An Associated Press-Ipsos poll showed her beating Republican John McCain 50 percent to 41 percent while Obama was running 46 percent to 44 percent in the same matchup. A Fox News poll Wednesday showed her outperforming Obama among independent voters.
I can only assume that by quoting a CBS News report you are in agreement with it. There are as many polls out there as there are pundits with agendas. I could quote polls showing Obama with a stronger showing against McCain. Including a Fox News poll in your quote completely negates any serious consideration of CBS News' opinion.
The fact remains that any way you look at the numbers, Obama will secure the Democratic Party nomination for President. He has crushed Clinton with regard to campaign donations from those least able to afford it. He has inspired many voters, young and old, to be involved for the first time. He represents those forgotten ideals of equality at the foundation of American democracy and his entire life story testifies to what can be accomplished within this system by those with common means.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I can only assume that by quoting a CBS News report you are in agreement with it.
That's an incorrect assumption: it was posted as FYI as to what a senior aide to Clinton is currently thinking and as a snapshot of where some things are now, hence the lack of comment from me. Gort, you ought to know by now I really don't have a horse in this race. The odds of me voting anything other than a third party are distantly remote at best as I decided a decade ago voting my conscience is no waste.
However, I remain skeptical Obama has a lock on the nomination: there are wheels within wheels spinning here and it wouldn't surprise me at all if his current troubles don't translate into more and more superdelegates supporting Clinton. Yesterday Brian Williams reported she picked up four and he picked up two.
I've said more than once I believe she has at least a good a shot against against McCain as he does and some case could be made a better one.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Including a Fox News poll in your quote completely negates any serious consideration of CBS News' opinion.
I missed this in my last post: CBS said it, not me. If I was feeling snarky I'd ask if you 'read for comprehension much?' but I'll pass.
I asked choirboy and I'll ask you: is anything Fox reports reliable? If not, how do you know that?
Or are you just showing your bias by denigrating anything they say?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Liberation theology emphasizes that one must be critical, even suspicious of those in authority.
Then that means that the USA was founded by liberation theologists.
Maybe Wright is doing what he can to derail Obama because it seems that consistency would demand that liberation theologians never vote for anything to the left of Goldwater/libertarian types.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Maybe Wright is doing what he can to derail Obama because it seems that consistency would demand that liberation theologians never vote for anything to the left of Goldwater/libertarian types.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Well, one voting record summary I saw showed Clinton is a skosh farther right than he is...
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
In all of the controversy about the Rev. Wright no one seems to have noticed that he has just written a book and that is why he is on a "book tour" conveniently supplied by the media.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I can only assume that by quoting a CBS News report you are in agreement with it.
Yesterday Brian Williams reported she picked up four and he picked up two.
No I believe he picked up 5 and she 4 including a very important figure who was a prominent Clinton SD who switched to Obama with a blistering attack on Clinton. So I still say it is advantage Obama in the Superdelegates so far who are "coming out"
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
In all of the controversy about the Rev. Wright no one seems to have noticed that he has just written a book and that is why he is on a "book tour" conveniently supplied by the media.
Just who hasn't just published and book and is on book tour?!
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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