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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
We have a satirical news quiz here in the UK, called Mock the Week. One participant commented on John McCain that the Republicans must be a bit desperate to pick McCain - when they had found him slightly less good than Bush 8 years ago (the implication being he is unlikely to improve with time). They were overstating the case for comic effect - but I do think there is a grain of truth in that.
Also they repeated the oft cited idea that he is too old and is therefore likely to die in office. I am reminded of what happened to the first First Minister of Scotland after devolution - Donald Dewar - US president is an extremely stressful job. (Actually, what they said was which would you rather have, a president who gets shot by a sniper from three miles away or man who gets killed off by a mild cold, but the point being made was as above.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Let's go by percentages, then. What percentage of McCain's actions do you think have been right, good and just? What percentage of his current positions has he held consistently for the last 20 years? (Just 20 years to keep it fair, given that he's up against a much younger man and given that times and circumstances do change.)
See, I still don't think percentages is even fair because of the significant difference in time served, but I have no doubt Obama would come out on top if you did it that way.
I don't have a problem with Obama. Frankly, I'd love it if he's The Great Black Hope for America. Just my sissypants fear of the unknown.
As for "positions held consistantly", I don't really have a problem with that. I would hope that the leader of the most powerful nation on the planet would have the integrity and insight to know when he needed to change his mind about something -- and the guts to do it.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
I understand the desire to know your candidate, Grits. I'm curious how important it is that your candidate of choice represents shared personal values - and if so, do you feel the recent McCain ad comparing Obama's celebrity to Britney Spears and Paris Hilton reflects your values? Specifically regarding the level of discourse you expect from a presidential campaign? Do you feel that ad speaks to your opinion of Obama?
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
I think it's a step outside of reality to expect any presidential candidate to represent MY personal values, you know? I'm not that naive. I just want the person who can do the job.
While I would never compare Obama to Britney or Paris, I think the "celebrity quotient" of his campaign is quite undeniable. I'm just glad he doesn't play the sax. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
It doesn't bother you that the level of discourse McCain has chosen to offer the American people is comparing his rival to a couple air-head glamour queens? Does this posture make you proud to support McCain or does Obama's "unknown" quality outweigh all other concerns?
Have you read anything written by Obama?
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
I don't consider one TV ad to be "discourse". The commercial was meant to make a point, and it did.
I find Obama to be a bit subjective and idealistic, even for me. It's not that his ideas are bad, it's just that some of them aren't going to be enforceable. I think he has some great ideas. We'll just have to wait and see how well he does with implementation.
I definitely consider him to be a true Democrat.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
The commercial was meant to make a point, and it did.
John McCain is desperate and no risk seems too great?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
"John McCain pledged to run a campaign that would be honorable. He would be respectful. He would stick to the issues. And now the ghost of Lee Atwater is leaving money on a dresser while Straight Talker looks on, recumbent, from the bed."
Hello, sailor.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I don't consider one TV ad to be "discourse".
Whether or not they constitute discourse, what do you make of McCain having run three attack ads in quick succession? Especially in light of his expressed wish to run a respectful campaign on the issues?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I don't consider one TV ad to be "discourse".
Whether or not they constitute discourse, what do you make of McCain having run three attack ads in quick succession? Especially in light of his expressed wish to run a respectful campaign on the issues?
Obama does seem to have the ability to drive his opponents crazy without ever doing anything provocative. Hillary had the same reaction to him. It seems that there's a real prima donna streak in politicians at this level. They really resent having to give reasons for why they are the better choice than someone who hasn't languished in Washington for at least a few decades. Come to think of it, the Dems who ran against GW oozed the same indignation at having to run against such a nobody.
I don't think that this sort of thing is helpful to the candidate that engages in it. It makes the candidate running the ads look petty and far more convinced that they are entitled to be POTUS than most voters are likely to see them as being. I don't think that the ads are offensive -- they're just counter-productive.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I don't think that the ads are offensive -- they're just counter-productive.
I've always wondered about negative ads: as often as they're used you have to figure there's some data somewhere indicating they work, to some extent.
I remember hearing it suggested at the least they take the opponent off message by virtually requiring a rebuttal.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I don't think that the ads are offensive -- they're just counter-productive.
I've always wondered about negative ads: as often as they're used you have to figure there's some data somewhere indicating they work, to some extent.
I remember hearing it suggested at the least they take the opponent off message by virtually requiring a rebuttal.
But this isn't a negative ad, it's just a whining ad. A negative ad makes a truth-functional point that is often a distortion of fact -- "Barak Obama began his career working for the mafia" or the like. This ad just says that you voters are obsessed with him for no reason other than that you're obsessed with him (which is more or less what I make of comparisons with Brittney Spears and Paris Hilton).
Now, how can it possibly be a good idea to tell voters that they are stupid in their fascination with Obama, even if that is true? These are the kind of ads that really resonate with the candidate, and are just stupid as a campaign strategy because they don't "speak" to anyone else. Or so ISTM.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Swish
Shipmate
# 8566
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Posted
Personally I am bitterly disappointed by McCain so far. Being British, I mainly follow American politics for West Wing esque entertainment, but I was really looking forward to this one after Obama and McCain won the nominations. Both seemed to be honourable men and intent on running a clean, positive, issue driven campaign. But McCain jumped straight in with Rove and has run a dirty, sickeningly negative campaign. The ease with which he did this should be cause for worry. A couple of months ago, despite being firmly in Obama's camp, I would have been relatively happy with McCain. Sure I disagreed with many of his policies, but he seemed different to Bush. Now I don't trust him. Maybe he is an honourable man running a dishonourable campaign, but the ease and speed with which he did it calls into question any honour I may have given him credit for. What started out as a Santos v Vinnick campaign is turning into a Bartlet v Ritchie one.
But McCain still remains very strong in the polls. A sign of his strength? Or of the success of negative campaigning? Or something else?
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Sorry Ted. I was concentrating too hard on looking holy.
Posts: 114 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Sep 2004
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
I'm disturbed by the McCain propangana campaign. That is, by repeating the same accusations about Obama even when the facts are different McCain appeals to the core group of racists, evangelicals and otherwise head-in-the sand bunch.
It really doesn't do much for Obama to respond and say that's wrong because the core groups don't listen to him anyway. A friend of mine fits this category and continues to forward the kind of hate mail that only advocates this lind of thinking. I have posted some mail replies but she doesn't acknowledge them.
Is there a better way for McCain (and me) to address the garbage?
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
... Now, how can it possibly be a good idea to tell voters that they are stupid in their fascination with Obama, even if that is true? ...
Is it possible that the ad was intended to stop defections from the Republican side, or convince undecided voters? OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
What do y'all think about this? I just mean that it seems that it's very easy for these ads to be misadvised.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
What's a $700K difference in McCain's campaign chest? The mistaken dollar amount of the $1.3M "Big Oil" donation to McCain is less ominous than his reversal on off-shore drilling one week after receiving it.
"We need to drill HERE! We need to drill NOW!" ~McCain
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Politician bought off by big donors with deep pockets. Film at 11.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
The mistaken dollar amount of the $1.3M "Big Oil" donation to McCain is less ominous than his reversal on off-shore drilling one week after receiving it.
I'll see you and raise you this.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Would anyone care to venture a guess as to the reason why the oil industry has a long history of massively disproportionate donations to Republican candidates?
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I'll see you and raise you this.
I think you're bluffing.
McCain offers up wife at topless biker-chick contest.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
What do y'all think about this? I just mean that it seems that it's very easy for these ads to be misadvised.
I think a "mistaken calculation" is a hell of a lot easier to forgive than the bullshit McCain is putting out there -- the Castro thing, for example.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
I do not think that it is a miscalculation. The Annerberg people have stretached a simple phrase, "McCain's campaign", well beyond its common and reasonable meaning.
The official name of McCain's election organization is 'McCain 2008', not 'McCain's campaign'. The official organizaton did indeed receive directly only 1.3 million from oil people, but the RNC has received 2.5 million from those same generous and benevolent souls, and the RNC has been spending and will continue to spend in a big way on behalf of Sen. McCain's campaign.
It is quite simple. Sen. cCain has a campaign organization (McCain 2008) which is a part of his overall campaign.
Without even considering oil money from PACs, the 2.0 million figure is definitely an UNDERstatement.
If the Annenberg people are so eager to dissect words and give them novel meanings, perhaps they might wish to consider the word "now" as in "drill NOW".
I always thought that "now" means something a bit sooner than ten to twenty years down the pike, but apparently the Anneberg scholars disagree with me.
Nevertheless, I give them credit for catching a few of Sen. McCain's more outrageous distortons.
Greta
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
McCain offers up wife at topless biker-chick contest.
That is something I don't want to imagine in my worst nightmares!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I think you're bluffing.
Oh, really?
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I think a "mistaken calculation" is a hell of a lot easier to forgive...
Yes, I agree. But my point was that political ads in general tend to be a bad reflection on the campaign and the candidates as a whole. And you're seeking perfection in Obama which, frankly, I feel is cultivated by the idealistic, poster boy image that people are in love with, and that was the whole point behind the Britney/Paris ad.
Here's my latest epiphany: I think some of you are kind of removed from the "pulse" of the American voter. Most of you are much more academic, cosmopolitan and/or New Age-y than the average American. Geographically speaking, I don't think you get a truly accurate national vibe on the West Coast (no offense). Some of you are in metropolitan areas, which is also not the best reflection of national demographics.
All I'm saying is that, no matter how you spin it, most Americans are still drinking coffee, not a venti skinny mocha latte, you know? I know Obama is all about change, but you know how most people hate change.
I'm not making any predictions. I'm just here to play devil's advocate and keep reminding everyone that those of us here on the Ship are truly NOT representative of the majority of Americans. You'll just have to trust me on that.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
But my point was that political ads in general tend to be a bad reflection on the campaign and the candidates as a whole.
Typically true, yes. I think McCain's are looking a whole lot worse than Obama's, though.
quote:
And you're seeking perfection in Obama
Me personally? Please stop telling me what I think.
quote:
which, frankly, I feel is cultivated by the idealistic, poster boy image that people are in love with, and that was the whole point behind the Britney/Paris ad.
That might have been the point, but the ad misfired badly. It's always a mistake to criticize the voters.
quote:
Here's my latest epiphany: I think some of you are kind of removed from the "pulse" of the American voter.
Huh? I am an American voter.
quote:
Most of you are much more academic, cosmopolitan and/or New Age-y than the average American.
Who exactly are you talking about? People on this thread? People who like Obama? Roughly half the voting population likes Obama better than McCain, and they can't all be academic, cosmopolitan and/or New Age-y.
quote:
Geographically speaking, I don't think you get a truly accurate national vibe on the West Coast (no offense).
California is more than 10% of the national population all by itself. And it's not all Hollywood. Have you ever lived here?
quote:
Some of you are in metropolitan areas, which is also not the best reflection of national demographics.
Far more people live in metropolitan areas than anywhere else in the country. That's what makes them metropolitan.
quote:
All I'm saying is that, no matter how you spin it, most Americans are still drinking coffee, not a venti skinny mocha latte, you know?
I'm not even sure what that is. Most people I know drink coffee.
quote:
I know Obama is all about change, but you know how most people hate change.
When a majority of people in the country say the we're on the wrong track, I think we can safely say people want change.
quote:
I'm not making any predictions. I'm just here to play devil's advocate and keep reminding everyone that those of us here on the Ship are truly NOT representative of the majority of Americans. You'll just have to trust me on that.
No, I don't have to trust you on anything. You've just told me in a coded way that my opinion doesn't count because I'm not really an American.
I ask again, have you ever lived anywhere on the west coast? Do you have any first-hand knowledge of what you're talking about?
[fixed code]
[ 06. August 2008, 15:37: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Does any of this political hectoring really matter before Sepetember? The only people who are interested seem to be those selling newspapers, and political junkies like us on this thread. But, even then, we've had more column inches up here about whether Brett Favre is going to show up to Packers training camp.
Why hasn't somebody asked Obama about that?
[ 06. August 2008, 15:45: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Does any of this political hectoring really matter before Sepetember?
August matters. August is when they do a lot of set-up for the fall, and it's when the basic narratives and personas tend to get settled. For all we might wish it were about positions, the election is nearly always about who can tell the story and project the persona that Americans can see as their future and the person who will get them there. August is when Kerry got swift-boated.
Paris Hilton has responded to McCain's ad: scroll down a little for the video. It's a hoot!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
My apologies. I don't mean to make any of my comments personal to any individual. And my West Coast comments are purely my own observations, so I'm sure I could be mistaken.
Once again, I'm only saying that we did this exact same dance four years ago, and I know it's infuriating for some (but not you, Ruth, since I can't possibly know what you're thinking, even though you certainly seem infuriated when you talk about McCain, and it's only logical I would make that assumption... right?)
I will just be surprised if the majority of American voters vote for Obama. That's all I'm saying. I am very anxious to learn about the VPs, as that could make a huge difference in this election, and I might change my mind at that point.
Paris Hilton for Vice-President!!!
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
My apologies. I don't mean to make any of my comments personal to any individual. And my West Coast comments are purely my own observations, so I'm sure I could be mistaken.
Of course one assumes they don't call it 'La La Land' for no reason. Just like they don't call our fair city 'The Buckle of the Bible Belt' due to all the wild-eyed libruls running around.
(Actually I think the Democrats - among whom I count myself - have taken a sure thing and turned it into a cliff-hanger which is really very annoying. Of course I was all for Billary and am not yet totally reconstructed. But I ain't votin' for no damn 'Publican neither.)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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agrgurich
Shipmate
# 5724
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Posted
The Obama Supporters on this board are just going to pull themselves together. St. Barack is not going to stroll into the presidency as he did the Senate. John McCain is not Alan Keyes. The Chicago machine won't be of much use to him & may hurt him elsewhere in the country. There will be many anti-Obama ads & you won't like any of them. That's OK. I'm not crazy obout the the anti-McCain ads, but it's just goes with the territory.
Perhaps John McCain should pick Paris Hilton for V.P. No more campaign finance problems! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole
AJG
Posts: 4478 | From: Michigan's Copper Country | Registered: Apr 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Some of you are in metropolitan areas, which is also not the best reflection of national demographics.
According to the US Census of 2000 about 80% of Americans live in towns and cities and the proportion is increasing.
Almost exactly half the population live in the largest 30 metropolitan areas - 17% live in the largest two alone, and nearly a third in the top ten.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
I am certanly not "seeking perfecton" in Sen. Obama. Our problems are serious, very near crisis point.
I cannot reasonably expect either candidate to sprinkle some fairy dust and usher in a golden age. My realistic hope is that whoever wins will not make matters worse.
Past policies, especially those of the last eight years, are in large measure responsible for the current mess, so a new order of business would seem to be the best hope for at least partial solutions.
In that regard, I have to give the edge to Sen. Obama, as I regard him as more likely to break with the past. I think that the innovative manner in which his campaign has been run could be a foretaste of his Presidential administration. I fear that with Sen. McCain, the course would be closer to business as usual.
Yes, there are risks with Sen. Obama, probably more so than with Sen. McCain, but I think that Obama would have the flexibility to qickly deal with new policies that do not work.
By the way, although I live in California, I have never had a latte, I love beef and pork, I hate sushi, I do not have the slightest interst in anything new age, I would have thought that Paris HIlton is a hotel, and I have never been to Disneyland, but I will confess to owning a Prius.
Greta
[ 06. August 2008, 20:51: Message edited by: CorgiGreta ]
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Just like they don't call our fair city 'The Buckle of the Bible Belt' due to all the wild-eyed libruls running around.
Looks like the Buckles at Belmont University, Nashville will host a debate between the contenders Oct. 7th. Have you got your tickets, Sine? It should be High Drama - McCain may pop a valve onstage - don't miss it!
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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agrgurich
Shipmate
# 5724
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Posted
I must confess I haven't watched a debate in years. First, ther're not real debates. Second, the "debates" are meaningless. It's the reaction to the debates that matters.
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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole
AJG
Posts: 4478 | From: Michigan's Copper Country | Registered: Apr 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Some of you are in metropolitan areas, which is also not the best reflection of national demographics.
According to the US Census of 2000 about 80% of Americans live in towns and cities and the proportion is increasing.
Almost exactly half the population live in the largest 30 metropolitan areas - 17% live in the largest two alone, and nearly a third in the top ten.
You silly Brit! You think that a person is a person. Not in our democracy. A cowboy in Wyoming has a vote worth something like twice what a city-slicker in LA's vote is worth. So, clearly, Grits was counting votes, not protoplasm.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Actually, the way the Electoral College is set up, those of us in states with a small number of EC votes are pretty much ignored.
California, having a huge number of votes, gets lots of attention from the candidates.
That cowboy in Wyoming isn't worth so much as a campaign postcard.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Does any of this political hectoring really matter before Sepetember?
No.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agrgurich:
I must confess I haven't watched a debate in years.
You're not confessing. You're bragging. You haven't missed much.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Actually, the way the Electoral College is set up, those of us in states with a small number of EC votes are pretty much ignored.
California, having a huge number of votes, gets lots of attention from the candidates.
It really depends on whether the state is considered to be "in play" this election and how much $$$ they have to raise.
If only the latter, there might be a brief Photo Op before the candidate meets-and-greets with the donors. We didn't get a lot of candidate attention (beyond the fly-in-raise-dough) or ads for the last one.
Charlotte
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
Guess everyone saw this. One reason I have yet to see McCain as "desperate", as he was labeled earlier on this thread.
And my comment was not about the amount of people who live in metropolitan areas; it was about how their voting is influenced, which is differently from voters in the heartland.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
OK. I'll bite. How are the votes of people in Manassas, Virginia or Riverside, California influenced? How is that different from how voters in the heartland are influenced?
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agrgurich:
I must confess I haven't watched a debate in years. First, ther're not real debates. Second, the "debates" are meaningless. It's the reaction to the debates that matters.
1. You can't have reactions to a debate that doesn't happen.
2. If you don't watch the debate, you don't matter because you don't have a reaction, but the reaction to a reaction.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
OK. I'll bite. How are the votes of people in Manassas, Virginia or Riverside, California influenced? How is that different from how voters in the heartland are influenced?
It has to do with traditional "heartland" distrust of high-falutin' intalekshuls and their slick city ways. Obama was burned when he mentioned this subject with his "clinging to guns and Bibles" comment. McCain is feeding this bias with some of his "celebrity" campaign ads to some effect. Unfortunately for Obama, the heartland is also still home to the last vestiges of racism. Of course, this subject will immediately raise the hackles of the good ole boys and girls who would rather you believe they've grown beyond such ignorance while later they mutter epithets over Pabst at the local Grange Hall. quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Guess everyone saw this.
From the link: quote:
I think it's the fact that he's young and relatively inexperienced," CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider said. "You hear all the time people say, well, is he really ready to be president, someone his age, someone who hasn't been in Washington that long, someone who doesn't seem to have a lot of experience with national security or foreign affairs?"
Interesting that Bill Clinton was younger at his inauguration than Obama is now and had no national security or foreign affairs experience either. Clinton presided over the longest period of peace-time economic expansion in American history, which included a balanced budget and a reported federal surplus of $559 billion and left office with a 65% approval rating. The only elected offices Clinton held before President were Governor of Arkansas and Attorney General of that state. I think we can safely assume Obama's age and "relative inexperience" are not significant factors when weighed against his obvious intellectual and organizational skills - that is unless you are looking for a more palatable excuse to ignore those admirable traits.
[ 07. August 2008, 04:48: Message edited by: Gort ]
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
quote:
Gort wrote: It has to do with traditional "heartland" distrust of high-falutin' intalekshuls and their slick city ways.
No doubt you're right, Gort. But given that the population of Nashville is almost identical to the population of Washington, D.C., I find all this small town "heartland" talk a bit confusing. Just where is this heartland?
But then I'm also confused by the portrayal of Senator Obama as a latte-sippin' elitist vs. the down-to-earth "regular guy" Senator McCain. Obama was raised by a grandfather who worked in a furniture store and a grandmother who worked in a bank -- and lives in the same modest apartment where she raised her grandson. McCain lived the privileged life of the son -- and grandson -- of one of the highest ranking admirals in the U.S. Navy.
As far as I'm concerned, I really don't care much about all this biography stuff. I'm just mystified at how much some people's perceptions don't correspond with the truth.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
California, having a huge number of votes, gets lots of attention from the candidates.
We get none, actually, because California is a sure thing for the Democrats these days, and there's no point in campaigning here. Presidential candidates only come to California to fundraise.
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
And my comment was not about the amount of people who live in metropolitan areas; it was about how their voting is influenced, which is differently from voters in the heartland.
"Metropolitan areas" and "the heartland" are mutually exclusive? Seriously? Here are actual numbers from the US Census Bureau of some metropolitan areas in the heartland, which as far as I can tell is anywhere that's not the west coast or the Bos-Wash corridor (source - pdf file):
Atlanta (over 4 million)
Austin (over 1 million)
Birmingham, AL (over 1 million)
Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord, SC-NC (over 1 million)
Chicago (over 9 million)
Cincinnati (over 2 million)
Cleveland (over 2 million)
Columbus, OH (over 1 million)
Dallas-Ft. Worth (over 5 million)
Denver (over 2 million)
Detroit (over 4 million)
Houston (over 4 million)
Indianapolis (about 1 1/2 million)
Jacksonville (over 1 million)
Kansas City (almost 2 million)
Las Vegas (over 1 million)
Louisville (over 1 million)
Memphis (over 1 million)
Milwaukee (1 1/2 million)
Minneapolis-St. Paul (about 3 million)
Nashville (over 1 million)
Oklahoma City (over 1 million)
Philadelphia (about 5 1/2 million)
Phoenix (over 3 million)
Pittsburgh (about 2 1/2 million)
Richmond, VA (about 1 million)
St. Louis (over 2 1/2 million)
San Antonio (over 1 1/2 million)
Virginia Beach (about 1 1/2 million)
Come up with some actual facts, Grits, or we'll know your claims for what they are: unthinking stereotyping. Or would "unconscious" be a better word?
[ 07. August 2008, 05:39: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
...As far as I'm concerned, I really don't care much about all this biography stuff. I'm just mystified at how much some people's perceptions don't correspond with the truth.
As always, we're colored by our preconceptions and biases. I'm biased against the bumbling 'aww shucks' embarrassment of the White House these last eight years. My bias sees it repeated in McCain and I find inspiration in his opponent.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Come up with some actual facts, Grits, or we'll know your claims for what they are: unthinking stereotyping. Or would "unconscious" be a better word?
I do nothing unconsciously. I think you'd be surprised.
Yes, I think it is stereotyping of a kind, but I'm sorry -- it's also reality. Do you really not grasp the concept of a great big country that is not actually filled with people who think like you? People who don't care about your "facts" and who aren't going to research and study and agonize over how they cast their vote? All the posts that you and others are making make HUGE assumptions about how conscienciously the average American makes their decision.
If the country was filled with people who were as passionate about it as y'all are, there would be no contest. Unfortunately, there is a lot of apathy out there, and there are a whole lot of folks who are only going to vote for "the man". So there's your stereotyping... and there's your reality. If Obama's only ahead 5 points, don't you think that bears witness?
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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