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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I'm biased against the bumbling 'aww shucks' embarrassment of the White House these last eight years. My bias sees it repeated in McCain and I find inspiration in his opponent.
Can someone explain to me why this isn't a form of stereotyping? Bush was a bad president; Bush is a Republican; therefore, any Republican will be a bad president.
Tell me one inspiring thing about an Obama presidency, but it has to be something that you can guarantee me will really happen.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Look at it this way Presley: The respective nominee's backgrounds aren't important to Joe Public. All he sees is a fancy talking intellectual vs. a self-effacing, gramps who doesn't use words of more than three syllables.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
...Tell me one inspiring thing about an Obama presidency, but it has to be something that you can guarantee me will really happen.
You won't have Obama speaking like a village idiot on the world stage and fumbling over words a third grader can pronounce. Guaranteed.
That's damned inspiring to me.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Come up with some actual facts, Grits, or we'll know your claims for what they are: unthinking stereotyping. Or would "unconscious" be a better word?
I do nothing unconsciously.
Oh, but I do?
quote:
Yes, I think it is stereotyping of a kind, but I'm sorry -- it's also reality.
Got any facts yet to show how voters in Manassas and Riverside are influenced differently from voters in the heartland? Any time you want to back up your argument would be good.
quote:
Do you really not grasp the concept of a great big country that is not actually filled with people who think like you?
I am all too well aware that the vast majority of the people I interact with every day don't think like me; that the rest of the 300 million-plus people in the US are not also thinking just like me kind of goes without saying.
quote:
People who don't care about your "facts" and who aren't going to research and study and agonize over how they cast their vote?
Do you think that's what all Californians are busy doing over their lattes?
People all over are mostly going to vote their gut, and we all know it. I never claimed otherwise, and don't know why you're trying to say I have. The onus is upon you to show that the way this works in the heartland is somehow different from the way it works in the rest of the country.
You're not mounting a coherent argument. You shifted your claim from saying the west coast is not like the rest of the country to saying the political junkies on this thread are not typical American voters, but the second claim in no way supports the first.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I'm biased against the bumbling 'aww shucks' embarrassment of the White House these last eight years. My bias sees it repeated in McCain and I find inspiration in his opponent.
Can someone explain to me why this isn't a form of stereotyping? Bush was a bad president; Bush is a Republican; therefore, any Republican will be a bad president.
Nice try. The point is that McCain has pledged to, or can be expected to, continue many of the same policies of the disastrous Bush administration. If McCain had said, "I'm making a clean break, my presidency won't look anything like GWB's presidency" then what you say might have some bite. And I might consider voting for him, except for the Supreme Court nominations.
quote:
Tell me one inspiring thing about an Obama presidency, but it has to be something that you can guarantee me will really happen.
Now that's just stupid. What can you guarantee will happen under McCain? You can't guarantee anything and neither can I and this is just bullshit hand-waving. "You can't guarantee it so you have no reason to vote based on it" or some such crap.
But what I hope, and I think have some reason to expect, under an Obama presidency is that any SCOTUS openings won't be filled by a civil rights disaster like Scalia or Thomas.
In all honesty I would like to see SCOTUS justices that have the decency to recuse themselves from voting on presidential elections where their own personal interests are at stake, but I don't think Obama can do miracles.
Call me a one-issue voter. I want my civil rights back. All of 'em.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
...Tell me one inspiring thing about an Obama presidency, but it has to be something that you can guarantee me will really happen.
You won't have Obama speaking like a village idiot on the world stage and fumbling over words a third grader can pronounce. Guaranteed.
That's damned inspiring to me.
Hmmm... that's just not enough for me. Sorry.
OK, since Ruth won't let the West Coast/latte comments go: It's the media, it's the society, it's the mindset. I think the East Coast has their own sphere, as well. While we all get the same news, it gets presented to us in a varying fashion. There are geographically-influenced humans making the decisions about which stories go, which stories go big, which stories go small if at all, etc. The presence of a university in a community can make a difference. A "good ol' boy" network in a community can make a difference. Just the continuity of the legacy of a community can make a difference. I never said any of it is good or bad, just that it is. The soybean farmer in east Tennesse is receiving news/having discussions/making decisions differently than the software designer in southern California. That's just the way it is.
mousethief, your comments make total sense to me. I have to wonder why McCain is not distancing himself from Bush. I'd like to think it is out of respect for the office. I'd like him to be more specific about any changes he forsees.
I'm sorry you thought my comment was "stupid", but apparently, you got the point. There are no guarantees. I appreciate your objectivity about Obama's influence over the Supreme Court, at least, in the next four years. Which civil rights are you missing the most?
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
The soybean farmer in east Tennesse is receiving news/having discussions/making decisions differently than the software designer in southern California.
And the farmer in California is different from the software designer in Nashville. (And don't scoff at this California family farm for going organic -- they're my mother's cousins.)
Sure, there are a lot of differences among the different parts of the country. But you made a sweeping generalization about the west coast vs. the heartland that denigrated a whole lot of people, and you can't back it up.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Hmmm... that's just not enough for me. Sorry.
No need to apologize. I understand the heartland is content with the lowest common denominator.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
You won't have Obama speaking like a village idiot on the world stage and fumbling over words a third grader can pronounce. Guaranteed.
Yeah, right.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
But you made a sweeping generalization about the west coast vs. the heartland that denigrated a whole lot of people, and you can't back it up.
Here is my original statement:
quote:
Geographically speaking, I don't think you get a truly accurate national vibe on the West Coast (no offense).
How is that "denigrating"? It's obviously true, because I know literally thousands of people around here, and none of them are talking about the things you, MadGeo, Gort, etc. are talking about. Our newspapers are not focusing on the global warming issue. Our Democrats are not being overly vocal. Yes, there is the race thing that y'all can't even seem to consider a factor -- but it is, IN SOME PLACES.
Good grief, people, I was trying to be complimentary! I was saying that in some parts of the country, there is not as much insight, passion, concern, etc. as there seems to be in others, and I think that is fostered by many different elements. I hate to come right out and say you're forgetting all the stupid hicks and rednecks that will be voting, but I guess I'm going to have to denigrate my own part of the country in order for you to understand what I'm saying.
My reaction is to your continued disbelief and disgust that any right-thinking person could vote for McCain. I simply trying to present a valid example of why that is going to happen, and why it is going to happen a lot.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Tell me one inspiring thing about an Obama presidency, but it has to be something that you can guarantee me will really happen.
We will have elected a man of color to the highest office in the land for the first time in our history. Your threshold for inspiration may, of course, vary...
--Tom Clune
[ 07. August 2008, 14:35: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
It's obviously true, because I know literally thousands of people around here, and none of them are talking about the things you, MadGeo, Gort, etc. are talking about.
Ah, so YOUR neighborhood is the national vibe, and ours isn't? And how do you know THAT?
The lack of civil right that terrifies me the most is that I can have property confiscated permanently, without trial, if I am suspected of a drug crime. My right to vote for the president and not have my vote nullified and the election stolen by SCOTUS would be nice to have back. I also think the right to not be wiretapped without a warrant should be returned to me. There are others.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Some research suggests that people actually vote for the tallest and best looking candidate, almost regardless of anything else. On that score if both candidates were white Obama would presumably win - however, it will probably depend on just how instinctively repelled 'low-information voters' are by colour, regardless of how its rationalised later. And also on whether the democrats are able to motivate enough people who don't usually vote.
Does anyone think Paris Hilton will go ahead and get her name on the ballot papers ?
(P.S. In reply to mousetheif, what are your views on the permenant electoral disenfranchisement inmoe states of anyone who has served a prison sentence in some states ?)
[ 07. August 2008, 14:51: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Tell me one inspiring thing about an Obama presidency, but it has to be something that you can guarantee me will really happen.
We will have elected a man of color to the highest office in the land for the first time in our history. Your threshold for inspiration may, of course, vary...
I'd rather have cheap gas and a stable credit market regardless of color frankly.
(Although I'm pessimistic a president of either party can necessarily provide either one.)
It really wouldn't surprise me at all if Obama's lack of experience + his color didn't throw the election to McCain. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
Geographically speaking, I don't think you get a truly accurate national vibe on the West Coast (no offense).
How is that "denigrating"? It's obviously true, because I know literally thousands of people around here, and none of them are talking about the things you, MadGeo, Gort, etc. are talking about.
I don't have a horse in this race, but the very next thing you wrote was:
quote:
Some of you are in metropolitan areas, which is also not the best reflection of national demographics.
which aroused my pedantry. because most Americans live in metropolitan areas, so they in fact are a better reflection of national demographics than are small towns or rural areas. Quite a lot of those metropolitan areas are in the kind of places you call the heartland, but they are definitely metropolitan.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
How is that "denigrating"? It's obviously true, because I know literally thousands of people around here, and none of them are talking about the things you, MadGeo, Gort, etc. are talking about.
What are the main issues for the people you know Grits? (I'm just interested as a outsider, it's not a leading question.)
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Quite a lot of those metropolitan areas are in the kind of places you call the heartland, but they are definitely metropolitan.
Yes. But they aren't on the coasts. Or Atlanta. Atlanta used to be a nice city but now it's primarily a good place to send folks who don't fit in their hometowns.
And of course New York has excellent shopping and Broadway and is a nice place to visit but you wouldn't want to live there.
As for Los Angeles, the less said the better other than it's not too far from San Diego which is still pretty.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Tell me one inspiring thing about an Obama presidency, but it has to be something that you can guarantee me will really happen.
We will have elected a man of color to the highest office in the land for the first time in our history. Your threshold for inspiration may, of course, vary...
I'd rather have cheap gas and a stable credit market regardless of color frankly.
Yes, but that isn't an answer to the question as posed...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
(P.S. In reply to mousetheif, what are your views on the permenant electoral disenfranchisement inmoe states of anyone who has served a prison sentence in some states ?)
I think it stinks.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Here is my original statement:
quote:
Geographically speaking, I don't think you get a truly accurate national vibe on the West Coast (no offense).
How about we get a bit more context?
quote:
I think some of you are kind of removed from the "pulse" of the American voter. Most of you are much more academic, cosmopolitan and/or New Age-y than the average American. Geographically speaking, I don't think you get a truly accurate national vibe on the West Coast (no offense). Some of you are in metropolitan areas, which is also not the best reflection of national demographics.
All I'm saying is that, no matter how you spin it, most Americans are still drinking coffee, not a venti skinny mocha latte, you know?
This is a lovely little melange of sweeping and false generalizations about the west coast, a false generalization about Obama supporters in general based on a few specific people on this thread, and the very inaccurate statement about where most Americans live.
There are universities stuffed full of academics, metropolises, and New Age loons all across the country. And there are good ol' boy networks, small family farms, agribusiness, big cities, small towns, and people of all walks of life up and down the west coast, dealing with rising costs of living and home foreclosures just like everyone else.
I still don't know where you're getting your ideas about what the west coast is like. Have you ever lived here? Visited for any extended period of time?
quote:
I know literally thousands of people around here, and none of them are talking about the things you, MadGeo, Gort, etc. are talking about.
If I knew people in real life who wanted to talk about these things, I wouldn't be doing so much of it here. I've got exactly one friend who is as much a political junkie as I am; everyone else's eyes roll right back into their heads if I get going.
quote:
Our newspapers are not focusing on the global warming issue.
They will. We're out on front of you on this, but once those soybean farmers find that their growing cycle is getting screwed up by climate change, you'll catch up.
quote:
Our Democrats are not being overly vocal.
And ours are? Huh?
quote:
Yes, there is the race thing that y'all can't even seem to consider a factor -- but it is, IN SOME PLACES.
Who here said race isn't a factor?
quote:
I hate to come right out and say you're forgetting all the stupid hicks and rednecks that will be voting, but I guess I'm going to have to denigrate my own part of the country in order for you to understand what I'm saying.
No, we're not forgetting the idiots out there. We're just being polite. Or at least I was trying to be for a while.
quote:
My reaction is to your continued disbelief and disgust that any right-thinking person could vote for McCain. I simply trying to present a valid example of why that is going to happen, and why it is going to happen a lot.
"Right-thinking persons" are not "stupid hicks and rednecks." Again, not a coherent argument.
Of course we know people will vote for McCain. I for one am desperately afraid that a lot of people will vote for McCain -- good God, people voted for Bush. Twice!
You're making a boatload of assumptions about the thinking that is going on behind the pro-Obama posts here. The others can speak for themselves, but what's behind my posts is a deep-seated conviction that this country is fucked up, perhaps beyond repair, because our international reputation is in the toilet, the economy is circling the drain, and our national "discourse," such as it is, is driven by a 24-hour news cycle that's become so stupid and so driven by the lowest common denominator that many people have quite understandably completely tuned out. Obama has a take and positions on our place in the world and our internal problems that sound better to me than anything McCain is offering, and with the soaring rhetoric that you are so quick to write off he's making an effort to rise a bit above the shit-slinging and swing-voter-pandering that passes for political discourse in this country.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Does anyone think Paris Hilton will go ahead and get her name on the ballot papers ?
(P.S. In reply to mousetheif, what are your views on the permenant electoral disenfranchisement inmoe states of anyone who has served a prison sentence in some states ?)
Doesn't the ban on ex-convicts voting stop Paris Hilton from being a candidate then?
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
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Posted
Tom Clune, that may or may not be a good thing; personally I'm indifferent. But I would hardly call it inspiring. If the only inspiring thing about either candidate is the colour of one of them (and I'm struggling to think of any other inspiring points for either) then you're seriously short on inspiration.
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
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Posted
Major crosspost, replying to this:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
We will have elected a man of color to the highest office in the land for the first time in our history. Your threshold for inspiration may, of course, vary...
--Tom Clune
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
... Unfortunately, there is a lot of apathy out there, and there are a whole lot of folks who are only going to vote for "the man". So there's your stereotyping... and there's your reality. If Obama's only ahead 5 points, don't you think that bears witness?
Without getting into how this conclusion was reached, I have to sadly agree and say that this is how I think it is going to go in November. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) However, if anyone would like to make a wager with me - proceeds to the Organ Fund - I'd be thrilled to be proved wrong. OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
If the only inspiring thing about either candidate is the colour of one of them (and I'm struggling to think of any other inspiring points for either) then you're seriously short on inspiration.
It's not Obama being black that's inspiring, at least not to me. But a bunch of white people in Iowa voting for him, now that was inspiring. It's one reason why I won't write off the heartland as a bunch of stupid hicks and rednecks.
What's interesting to me about how color played out in the primaries is that Obama did better with white people who live in very white states than he did with white people who live with or closer to a fair number of black people. I have no idea why this is. Maybe white people living in white states somehow have less negative stereotypes of black people in the backs of their minds because they simply don't give black people much thought since they rarely deal with them? Just a guess.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
Tom Clune, that may or may not be a good thing; personally I'm indifferent. But I would hardly call it inspiring. If the only inspiring thing about either candidate is the colour of one of them (and I'm struggling to think of any other inspiring points for either) then you're seriously short on inspiration.
American presidential politics has been seriously short on inspiration for some time.
But if you can't find signs of healing the racial divide in this country inspiring, I'm not sure what you would find inspiring.
I'm afraid the race issue really is going to be the turning point, and Obama will lose to McSame, and we'll get another 4 years of the same old shit, and all the problems RuthW lists out will be made worse, and the Supreme Court will be pushed even further to the right, and 4 years from now the job of crawling out of the hole will be just that much harder.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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agrgurich
Shipmate
# 5724
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by agrgurich:
I must confess I haven't watched a debate in years. First, ther're not real debates. Second, the "debates" are meaningless. It's the reaction to the debates that matters.
1. You can't have reactions to a debate that doesn't happen.
2. If you don't watch the debate, you don't matter because you don't have a reaction, but the reaction to a reaction.
I wasn't referring to MY reaction to a debate I didn't watch. I'm interested in the raaction of the news media, other politicos, pundits, etc.
That's important, not the meaningless blather of the debate.
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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole
AJG
Posts: 4478 | From: Michigan's Copper Country | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Can there be meaningful reaction to meaningless blather?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
If the only inspiring thing about either candidate is the colour of one of them (and I'm struggling to think of any other inspiring points for either) then you're seriously short on inspiration.
It's not Obama being black that's inspiring, at least not to me. But a bunch of white people in Iowa voting for him, now that was inspiring. It's one reason why I won't write off the heartland as a bunch of stupid hicks and rednecks.
I was aware that this was what tclune meant in his post, and I'm still not sure I would find it especially inspiring. I would like Australia to be in a situation when an Aboriginal or a non-European immigrant could become Prime Minister, (currently I think there is one Asian and no Aborigines in Federal Parliament, though I may be mistaken) but I don't think that I would find it especially inspiring if they did. Truly inspiring leaders are rare, and the electorate being prepared to vote for inspiring leaders is rarer till; I will be inspired when the electorate positively votes for a politician with inspiring policies, not simply when they disregard old prejudices about race, (as good a development as that is).
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
Well, I guess cockeyed optimism really doesn't have a place in politics. I suppose I just have an overabundance of hope and belief that this country will never reach a place beyond repair. And before any of you can say it -- it's not stupidity, nor blind faith, nor naivete. I just believe it.
I can imagine nothing more wonderful than having an honest to goodness, bona fide leader in the White House, someone who really believes in America, who can't be swayed by the political machine, someone who has personal convictions that are halfway aligned with mine. Someone who can simplify the chaos and bring back common sense and a desire to make decisions based on the national good.
I love the movie "Dave" and how simple his solutions were. I just know that's not a true reflection on politics, the White House, and the actual ability of one man to make a difference -- not because he doesn't want to or doesn't know how -- but because his good intentions become squashed and contorted and nullified by the day-to-day bureaucracy he faces.
I will happily trade my cynicism for inspiration any day.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
...I will happily trade my cynicism for inspiration any day.
Then have the audacity to listen and read what Obama has to say and ignore the prejudices of your neighbors. There is nothing shameful about hope.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I can imagine nothing more wonderful than having an honest to goodness, bona fide leader in the White House, someone who really believes in America, who can't be swayed by the political machine, someone who has personal convictions that are halfway aligned with mine. Someone who can simplify the chaos and bring back common sense and a desire to make decisions based on the national good.
I don't support McCain, but why would you think Obama supporters want anything less from him?
As a gay man, I would also like someone who doesn't hold my personal private life hostage to political necessity, but I don't see that happening with either candidate. At this point, I am a partially re-constructed Hilary supporter. I hope Sine is wrong about the Democrats snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, but I am afraid I agree with him.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I love the movie "Dave" and how simple his solutions were.
I'll vote for Kevin Kline any day.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Obviously his ideas were much to simple ever to work. But it would be wonderful if we could get the White House and Congress at least headed a bit in that direction.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
Seriously, I am so ready for America to have a respected, charismatic leader. I just really want him to have the political clout and the experienced chops to do the job, as well.
What about the VPs? I honestly don't have a good prediction for either one. Anyone else have a thought?
(I suppose it would be ill-advised for me to start a Hell thread, "Top 100 Reasons I Hate Nancy Pelosi" now, eh? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Tell me one inspiring thing about an Obama presidency, but it has to be something that you can guarantee me will really happen.
We will have elected a man of color to the highest office in the land for the first time in our history. Your threshold for inspiration may, of course, vary...
I'd rather have cheap gas.....
People in North America really do have to get over this.
Cheap gas is not coming back, no matter who does what as POTUS or PM of Canada.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
...Cheap gas is not coming back, no matter who does what as POTUS or PM of Canada.
Oddly enough, cheap gas is still with us - at least for me. The percentage of my income for gasoline in 1966 at 35 cents per gallon is far higher than it is today. Given the current value of US dollars, I'd say fuel is dirt cheap.
Go figure.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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chadevan
Apprentice
# 12786
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Posted
quote:
And before any of you can say it -- it's not stupidity, nor blind faith, nor naivete. I just believe it.
I'm not trying to be smart, but how is that not blind faith? Is it a religious conviction? If so, on what do you base it?
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Cast a cold eye
on life, on death.
Horseman, pass by!
--W.B. Yeats
Posts: 41 | From: Faulkner Country | Registered: Jul 2007
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
scroll down to where A Concerned Citizen pontificates in a Letter to the Editor:
quote:
By comparison, President Bush prefers his numerous contacts and frequent visits to war wounded to go unreported.
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So the Prez keeps his visits unreported, but somehow you, random (and probably not reading anything but this same newspaper where your letter was printed) individual have the inside scoop about what the Prez was doing. Yeah, right.
Dear Shipmates, aside from partisan politics, please agree with me that some random citizen can be aware of what the President has done and simultaneously claim that the President has kept that particular action totally private is an oxymoron.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Originally posted by Grits: quote:
Can someone explain to me why this isn't a form of stereotyping? Bush was a bad president; Bush is a Republican; therefore, any Republican will be a bad president.
That's not a stereotype, just a syllogism, though not stated as clearly as it might be. Try this: Bush implemented Republican policies; Bush is a bad president; therefore a president who implements Republican policies is a bad president.
As a syllogism it's valid. The possible arguments against it are: Bush has not really implemented Republican policies (there's a semi-reasonable case there, depending on what counts as Republican--you guys can fight that out among yourselves) and Bush is not a bad president (though opinions are running 2:1 against him). I take it you agree with the second premise, so you probably question the first.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Try this: Bush implemented Republican policies; Bush is a bad president; therefore a president who implements Republican policies is a bad president.
As a syllogism it's valid.
No it's not. Consider:
John has a wife named Zelda.
John has false teeth.
Therefore anybody with a wife named Zelda has false teeth.
Your argument is of the form: A is B. A is C. Therefore all B are C. It is not a valid syllogism.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chadevan:
I'm not trying to be smart, but how is that not blind faith? Is it a religious conviction? If so, on what do you base it?
I don't know if I can really say. It's just a very confident feeling, similar to the one I experience when I think about the longshot of death by global warning. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) I just don't think the downfall of the U.S. is in the universal cards, so to speak.
(Faulkner Country? Mississippi?)
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Well, I guess cockeyed optimism really doesn't have a place in politics. I suppose I just have an overabundance of hope and belief that this country will never reach a place beyond repair...
Rome is burning, Grits, and the Barbarians are at the gates. Time to quit fiddling "Dixie" and do something about it.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
Potayto, potahto, sweetie.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Up above the chimney tops
where troubles melt like lemon drops
That's where you'll find me...
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
The banter between Ruth and Grits has got me to thinking that Grits is closer to the mood of the electorate. The contest will, ISTM, come down to the debates. The first on Sept 26th will be a re-run of the Nixon-Kennedy debate in 1960, That was the appearance (not the arguements) of a desparate old pol and a young eager man.
It was enough to turn the election then and will be again this time.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
I think part of the attraction in voting for McCain comes from people who still feel genuinely hurt by the thrashings they received for their support of Bush over the last 8 years, especially around the 2004 election time. They see all of the Bush-haters crowding around Obama and they don't want to align themselves with that person, even if he would make a great candidate.
The rhetoric used during 2004 was harsh, and created a lot of deep wounds. Banging too hard on the "Bush is Evil" drum could end up hurting Obama more than helping when it's all over.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
The banter between Ruth and Grits has got me to thinking that Grits is closer to the mood of the electorate. The contest will, ISTM, come down to the debates. The first on Sept 26th will be a re-run of the Nixon-Kennedy debate in 1960, That was the appearance (not the arguements) of a desparate old pol and a young eager man.
It was enough to turn the election then and will be again this time.
The Kennedy/Nixon election is an interesting choice. That election was seen by conservatives as having been stolen by Kennedy -- the Daly machine delivered the Chicago area in a way that seemed rather like the Florida episode of Bush/Gore. True conservatives have harbored a grudge about that election like liberals do over the Bush/Gore results.
Kennedy won the election but lost the popular vote if memory serves, and would not have won the election at all without the Chicago shenanigans. So maybe the real take-away is not that one guy looked fresh and new, but that one guy had the help of a more ruthless political machine. The way to ensure Obama's election may be to bring back thuggery...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
The way to ensure Obama's election may be to bring back thuggery...
Bring it back?
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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