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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Foolhearty:
Ralph Perquadrennial Nader is on the ballot in my state.
Ron Paul's still in there pitching, too. And the Greens, and the Libertarians, and Lord alone knows who else.
***
I made a point of listening to the local Christian radio statio "Family News" to see what they said about Bristol. It wasn't there. A non-event. Very interesting.
Although the station's in Canada, that news is written in the US, and often neglects any Canadian story. So it was of great significance that this is not a news item there.
[ 03. September 2008, 02:59: Message edited by: HenryT ]
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
Alaska has a reputation for the wilder side of life, and clearly some of its population tend towards religious fundamentalism.
However the pregant young Miss Palin can be thankful that she does not live in the backblocks of Pakistan where it is reported that several young women who showed an inclination to associate with men not pre-approved by their fathers were shot and buried alive. The local parliamentary representative (congressman) said that this was an honourable tradition which he was proud to defend. (see report at http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/01/pakistan )
Not even Alaskan politicians or preachers go that far AFAIK.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
Alaska has a reputation for the wilder side of life, and clearly some of its population tend towards religious fundamentalism.
which he was proud to defend.
What do the Orthodox Alaskans think of Palin??
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Palin has been an advocate of abstinence-only sex education. One wonders if she has had any second thoughts. And if she hasn't, how does that reflect on her judgment?
17-year-olds should not be getting pregnant, even if they're married. And they shouldn't be getting married, even if they're pregnant.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
17-year-olds should not be getting pregnant, even if they're married. And they shouldn't be getting married, even if they're pregnant.
Why? What underlying principle(s) are you drawing on here?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HenryT:
Ron Paul's still in there pitching, too. And the Greens, and the Libertarians, and Lord alone knows who else. ...
I think Ron Paul is just trying to influence policy now. He said long ago that he would not run as a third-party candidate in this election.
I wish Bob Barr would lose the moustache...
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Interesting you should say that Josephine, because a very politicaly savey friend of mine is saying that he thinks that not only will she, but that that was the plan all along and she'll be replaced by someone like Condi Rice.
If it was planned to be a bait and switch, then it was unconscionable to put Palin's daughter through that, given that they already knew about her pregnancy and that it was likely to get out. She's got enough to deal with.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
I really don't think Condi could do the job. She may be a very nice person, and good as both a pianist and a provost. But she seems to be an ivory tower academic. Given her performance at the Congressional 9/11 hearings, where she said that she wasn't concerned about the warnings because there was no specific date, she has no business being in government.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I don't see how the Republicans can pull the VP candidate when the election is only 8 weeks away. If they're going to do that, they might as well throw in the towel -- McCain would look like a complete fool.
Did anyone watch the convention tonight? I thought Thompson was going to bore everyone to death until he got going on McCain's biography, which is just such a great story even he can't mess it up. And he was good from that point on. I thought Lieberman was kind of a yawner. I'm not exactly their target audience, though -- anyone with a more open mind want to venture an opinion?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I really don't think Condi could do the job. She may be a very nice person, and good as both a pianist and a provost. But she seems to be an ivory tower academic.
In the UK her name is inextricably linked to rendition and torture, after she flew over to Europe in 2005 to defend U.S. policy in the War on Terror.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Sarah Palin:
a) Has a very young child with Down's Syndrome
b) Has a teenage daughter who is pregnant (and is - seemingly - being forced into marriage with the father despite the fact that they may not really want to get married or that they are hopelessly too young to do so).
Are you really telling me that a good mother would choose at this time to run for VP? What damage is being done to Bristol by all this attention being focussed on her? Just how much love and care will Palin be able to give her young child - or will that be pushed off onto a nanny?
Regardless of whether she has the ability to be VP, I would say her judgement is pretty fatally flawed. Any mother who cared for her children would be making sure that, at this very difficult time for two of them, she was giving them the best attention, love and care that she could. Not dashing off to be a political big wig.
Or are we saying the the job of VP is so easy and undemanding that she could do it and and still be able to give her children the attention they need?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
RuthW
I'm watching some re-runs and have just passed the point where Laura Bush said, "In Afghanistan and Iraq, 50 million people are now living in freedom". Which was part of a "straight talk about the facts".
Don't think folks who think like me are part of their target audience either.
Can't wait for the rest ....
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I really don't think Condi could do the job. She may be a very nice person, and good as both a pianist and a provost. But she seems to be an ivory tower academic.
In the UK her name is inextricably linked to rendition and torture, after she flew over to Europe in 2005 to defend U.S. policy in the War on Terror.
If McCain wants to distance himself from Dubya then Rice is the worst possible candidate. Frankly, he might as well go the whole hog and appoint Cheney.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Palin has been an advocate of abstinence-only sex education. One wonders if she has had any second thoughts. And if she hasn't, how does that reflect on her judgment?
17-year-olds should not be getting pregnant, even if they're married. And they shouldn't be getting married, even if they're pregnant.
Well said!
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
In the UK her name is inextricably linked to rendition and torture, after she flew over to Europe in 2005 to defend U.S. policy in the War on Terror.
Isn't that likely to be a positive? Do the French hate her as well?
Posts: 2044 | From: Auckland | Registered: Nov 2006
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
Well, I'd hope people would at least use Norplant rather than oral contraception, if they're determined to submit their teenage daughters, nieces, etc. to the hormones (that's actually part of my plan to genuinely make abortion rare-- I should just post the concept down in Dead Horses).
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
Do the French hate her as well?
If they hate her here it will be because she is close to "fundamentalist" groups (which in the national consciousness here applies equally to MOR evangelicals and Al Qaeda). Mostly she is being billed as a total unknown (though we got some interesting footage of her hugging babies closely followed by her shooting off a few rounds with an AK-47, which pretty much embodies our stereotype of conservative America... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) )
Does nobody else care about her sacking the head of security or whatever he was in Alaska for divorcing her sister?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I do get tired, however, of "Science" constantly playing their trump card - which is the definition of 'science.' Therefore anything you can't observe can't be 'science.'
In which case (and this tangent should be in Dead Horses) you need to learn a bit more about science. Science coopts anything that can meet its standards of evidence. So what you have is theories that make testable falsifiable predictions, and that have been tested (i.e. science) and hypotheses that have either failed (e.g. YECreationism) or don't make any sort of testable predictions (e.g. Intelligent Design, Deism). Science has nothing to say about the latter category - but the latter category by its nature can not be subjected to the same rigorous tests as science.
When your pet theories can meet the standards of science then they will deserve the same support. (I don't want to get into a debate about String Theory here).
quote:
Personally I've known too many good scientists, from a variety of disciplines, who also believed God directed the whole thing
And the two issues there are orthogonal. Science has nothing to say about untestable hypotheses. Other than that (as Godel proved) in any field as rich as arithmetic (and the Universe is far richer) it is possible for things to be true but not provable.
quote:
but the relevant question is from where are the days being measured?
Um... no. The relevant question here before you even reach that point is how do you reconcile the two mutually incompatable accounts of creation in Genesis? And how much bending over backwards are you then going to do in order to twist to fit
quote:
Relativity teaches us the importance of that question.
There are days when I hate popular science books. Even most of them written by scientists are written to push their crankier theories.
quote:
I think the 'creationist' side of things simply wants kids to realize that there are legitimately a variety of ways to look at the universe and that 'science' has become a very narrow box, at least in this arena.
In which case you really need to learn something about the mendacious would-be theocrats that lead the creationist side. First google for the Wedge Strategy then have a look at the records of the Dover Trial (there's a reason that the creationist arguments there were described as 'breathtaking inanity'). There are a legitimate range of ways to look at the universe - and once any of them reach the standards set by science they are coopted by science. There are also a lot of illegitimate ways of looking at the universe - and any method that prioritises prior theories over what the universe shows is illegitimate. Creationism fits this latter category.
Just to drag the discussion back on topic, anyone who is a young earth creationist is saying that they don't care what actually happens in the universe, they would rather ignore the universe and work off their prior beliefs than update their understanding when the known facts change. And anyone who thinks that Creationism is a viable alternative to sciencce is demonstrating that they not only don't understand what they are talking about, but they are prepared to pontificate (and even legislate) based on that. (Which doesn't stop most politicians in any field, admittedly). Creationist isn't much of a strike - no one has time to understand all of human knowledge. Creationist and advocate of 'teaching the controversy' is either a strike against judgement (there is no controversy when you look at the facts) or one against ethics. I'm not sure which applies to Sarah Palin.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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uncletoby
hobbyhorsical
# 13067
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Posted
Palin is clearly unfit for office.
No loving mother could possibly call her daughter "Bristol". She obviously knows nothing about Cockney Rhyming Slang.
Posts: 1150 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Oct 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Sarah Palin:
a) Has a very young child with Down's Syndrome
b) Has a teenage daughter who is pregnant (and is - seemingly - being forced into marriage with the father despite the fact that they may not really want to get married or that they are hopelessly too young to do so).
With all due respect for Oscar and dislike for Palin:
Little babies need to be cuddled and fed by a familiar, loving person. This little son of a rich man probably has a nanny doing that in an even more constant and devoted fashion than many busy full-time homemakers could provide.
On the other hand, seventeen year-olds, usually hate being hovered over by parents. Bristol probably wants to hang out with one of her equally pregnant young friends and go shopping for cute maternity clothes.
After all, she's pregnant, not sick. Having her mother home, looking at her and crying, probably wouldn't be helpful.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
17-year-olds should not be getting pregnant, even if they're married. And they shouldn't be getting married, even if they're pregnant.
Who died and made you the moral arbiter of the world?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
After all, she's pregnant, not sick. Having her mother home, looking at her and crying, probably wouldn't be helpful.
Exactly. She doesn't need the additional burden of 'My mom isn't veep because of me'.
And allow a bit of a rant as I watch the media do their 'work' of putting a pregnant 17 year old through some kind of hell in the interest of 'reporting news': vultures at least wait until you're dead.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
BTW: earlier I misconstrued a comment Greta made.
She has my apology.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
17-year-olds should not be getting pregnant, even if they're married. And they shouldn't be getting married, even if they're pregnant.
Who died and made you the moral arbiter of the world?
It doesn't really have anything to do with morality and more to do with the consequences of such actions. Children of teen mothers are far more likely to grow up in poverty and shotgun marriages at 17 tend to be over by the age of 21.
I don't think the firestorm is all about the child's pregnancy (and she IS a child), but rather the fact that Republicans have, by and large, been shoving their "family values" down our throats for, well, ever. It's too bad a 17 year old child is the lightning rod for such schadenfreude, but when your political party has been going on and on about how abstinence-based sex education really works, having one of your figureheads show just how much it doesn't is, in fact, news.
[ 03. September 2008, 12:27: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
It's too bad a 17 year old child is the lightning rod for such schadenfreude, but when your political party has been going on and on about how abstinence-based sex education really works, having one of your figureheads show just how much it doesn't is, in fact, news.
I get it now: no one knew there was a downside to 'abstinence only' sex education so let's humiliate a young girl who made a bad decision.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think it's the price you and yours pay for publicly backing a policy which has such an obvious potential to blow up in your face as this one.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think it's the price you and yours pay for publicly backing a policy which has such an obvious potential to blow up in your face as this one.
I know but I'm still not convinced it's news; it sounds more like an agenda to me and I keep hoping hoping 'professional journalism' will prevail.
And of course I get to define professional. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
I get it now: no one knew there was a downside to 'abstinence only' sex education so let's humiliate a young girl who made a bad decision.
Sounds reasonable to me.
I don't think it's reasonable so much as it is inevitable. Besides, if the Republicans weren't so busy shutting down the media in the Cities, we'd have other news to talk about.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Besides, if the Republicans weren't so busy shutting down the media in the Cities, we'd have other news to talk about.
I know you're too busy to read all this stuff but I'm the one who introduced the subject of what Federal authorities (apparently they're Federal) are doing in MN to this thread; I even offered a bit of commentary as to their actions.
But it was a nice try though: 'Republicans are bad' works here more often than not.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
After all, she's pregnant, not sick. Having her mother home, looking at her and crying, probably wouldn't be helpful.
Exactly. She doesn't need the additional burden of 'My mom isn't veep because of me'.
And allow a bit of a rant as I watch the media do their 'work' of putting a pregnant 17 year old through some kind of hell in the interest of 'reporting news': vultures at least wait until you're dead.
Yes, their yelping like kicked dogs suggests that McCain probably made a good pick.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
'Republicans are bad' works here more often than not.
As far I recall, it didn't work so well 5 or 6 years ago. Two wars and two terms of the Bush administration seem to have moved lots of people here into the anti-Republican camp.
Doubtless there'll be some sort of shift rightwards when a Democrat's been in office for a while.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think it's the price you and yours pay for publicly backing a policy which has such an obvious potential to blow up in your face as this one.
I know but I'm still not convinced it's news; it sounds more like an agenda to me and I keep hoping hoping 'professional journalism' will prevail.
Of course it's news. It is also a very unkind thing to subject a teenager to. But it was Palin who chose to subject her daughter to that publicity in the interrest of pursuing her own ambition. Denying that is just plain dishonest. Of course, in this reality-show society that values celebrity over all else, she may be doing her daughter a favor. But, if that is family values, I want nothing to do with it...
--Tom Clune
[ETA: This poem strikes me as particularly apt somehow,,,]
[ 03. September 2008, 14:05: Message edited by: tclune ]
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
'Republicans are bad' works here more often than not.
As far I recall, it didn't work so well 5 or 6 years ago. Two wars and two terms of the Bush administration seem to have moved lots of people here into the anti-Republican camp.
Doubtless there'll be some sort of shift rightwards when a Democrat's been in office for a while.
Yep. Nothing hurts a party more than winning an election.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Besides, if the Republicans weren't so busy shutting down the media in the Cities, we'd have other news to talk about.
I know you're too busy to read all this stuff but I'm the one who introduced the subject of what Federal authorities (apparently they're Federal) are doing in MN to this thread; I even offered a bit of commentary as to their actions.
But it was a nice try though: 'Republicans are bad' works here more often than not.
It has nothing to do with bad or good, it has to do with who is actually doing the censoring. Since it's the feds, it's Republicans, or did we change parties in the executive branch while I wasn't looking?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Little babies need to be cuddled and fed by a familiar, loving person. This little son of a rich man probably has a nanny doing that in an even more constant and devoted fashion than many busy full-time homemakers could provide.
So we should then expect that people like Palin won't moralise at us about the importance of "Traditional Christian Values" - one of which always used to be the importance of putting one's family first.
McCain has used Palin to appeal to the Conservative Evangelical camp. Tough shit if people now point out that she is not actually a terribly good practitioner of the "Traditional Christian Values" that the CE camp hold so highly. There's a word for it, actually. It starts with "hypo" and ends with "crisy".
Regardless of whether she can afford a nanny (ain't she the lucky one), it is still the case that one would expect a half decent mother to give time to her handicapped infant. And certainly one that professes to adhere to Traditional Christian Values.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
On the other hand, seventeen year-olds, usually hate being hovered over by parents. Bristol probably wants to hang out with one of her equally pregnant young friends and go shopping for cute maternity clothes.
After all, she's pregnant, not sick. Having her mother home, looking at her and crying, probably wouldn't be helpful.
That's making a huge set of assumptions. Most teenage mums I've been aware of (with the exception of nasty chavs from sinkhole housing estates) really really want their parents - but especially their mums - to be there with them through a very traumatic time. Bristol must have had all sorts of hopes and dreams for her life. Now she's stuck with a baby before her life has really begun. And where is the person she should most be able to turn to? Off being a model of the Traditional Christian Values that she has signally failed to keep. And even worse, the trauma and stress is quadrupled because this pregnancy is being splashed across newspapers across the globe. Bristol is rapidly becoming the most famous unmarried teenage mum since the BVM. Any parent with a shred of decency would be getting her out of the limelight and giving her the time she needs. Or will Sarah Palin be leaving that to the nanny as well?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Since it's the feds, it's Republicans, or did we change parties in the executive branch while I wasn't looking?
Good point. It's just that I didn't hear much about the Democrats culpability when the BATF's heavy-handedness resulted in the Koresh compound inferno.
(Reality Check Moment: have I become Tim McVeigh? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) )
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Since it's the feds, it's Republicans, or did we change parties in the executive branch while I wasn't looking?
Good point. It's just that I didn't hear much about the Democrats culpability when the BATF's heavy-handedness resulted in the Koresh compound inferno.
(Reality Check Moment: have I become Tim McVeigh? )
Probably because Clinton had held office just over a month at that point (he was sworn in on Jan 20) and although he was nominally responsible at that point his level of practical responsibility can't have been great as he needed time to take the reins (Bush has had 7.5 years...). Possibly because you weren't paying attention (I've heard the Republicans try to throw that one before). And possibly because Koresh was a cult leader rather than a political protester and the operation was a cluster**** that didn't go according to plan rather than something that possibly did.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
It's just that I didn't hear much about the Democrats culpability when the BATF's heavy-handedness resulted in the Koresh compound inferno.
Then you weren't paying attention! There was plenty.
quote:
(Reality Check Moment: have I become Tim McVeigh? )
If it's any reassurance, I'm having a really hard time imagining you planning to blow something up.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Bristol must have had all sorts of hopes and dreams for her life. Now she's stuck with a baby before her life has really begun.
Oscar, I'm not defending Palin. I don't like her (read back a few pages) and not a single one of her choices, from having five children to running for Veep at this time, would have been my choices.
I'm just sayiing that I'm not at all worried about her children. I imagine that the baby is getting good care.
Unlike you I have very little sympathy for Bristol. Sure, she had hopes and dreams, she also had material advantages, education, the knowledge that she was wanted by her married parents, and a present, willing father. Her own child may well not have any of these things. Already people like you are looking at her innocent baby as a burden she is "stuck with."
I get tired of people treating unmarried mothers as victims of some random lightning bolt beyond their control. This isn't like getting cancer, this is the entirely predictable result of an action she chose.
I don't judge other people's morals. If the boy next door gets drunk every Friday night and the girl has sex in her car with her boyfriend, I just look the other way. However, if that boy drives drunk and hurts someone or the girl gets pregnant, then it's gone outside of the realm of morals and into responsibility.
It's not judgmental for a society to demand that people don't drive drunk and neither should it be considered judgmental for a society to hold young women responsible for the cavalier way they've been bringing children into the world.
No, I'm not saying they should be shunned or gossiped about or hurt in any way, but I do think that it's time we quit treating them like poor innocent victims who need to be wrapped in cotton and shielded from all public opinion. Just like the young drunk driver she has acted irresponsibly and harmed an innocent third party.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Oh dear. Doesn't look good.
Although a lot of responders are saying something different, e.g.:
quote:
From BeliefNet blog comments:
The smear here involves state funding for Alaka House Covenant, which was $1.2 million in 2006, the year Palin was elected Governor. During the legislative negotiations this spring, a powerful committee chair in the Alaska legislature tried to up the funding to $5.0 million (a nice round figure), but in final negoations with the Governor the final number was brought in line with other increases and requests and approved by both branches of government at $3.9 million.
Not sure what the truth is there. It also sounds like the reports of Palin being in the Alaskan Independence Party might be untrue:
quote:
The information in the Times article was based on a statement issued Monday night by Lynette Clark, the party’s chairwoman, who said that Ms. Palin joined the party in 1994 and in 1996 changed her registration to Republican.
On Tuesday night, Ms. Clark said that her initial statement was incorrect and had been based on erroneous information provided by another member of the party whom she declined to identify.
It's always possible Ms Clark was either pressured into changing her tune, or else decided she preferred McCain to Obama. Still, the story sounds pretty unreliable now.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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beza
Shipmate
# 10581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
[QUOTE]
quote:
That's making a huge set of assumptions. Most teenage mums I've been aware of (with the exception of nasty chavs from sinkhole housing estates) really really want their parents - but especially their mums - to be there with them through a very traumatic time.
Er, I hope you are being ironic here. Aren't you making a lot of assumptions by saying chavs are "nasty" and that single mums who live on sink estates don't want their mums around? My experience is that there is almost no demand for childcare for tots, so effective is the extended family in caring for youngsters.
[ 03. September 2008, 17:28: Message edited by: beza ]
Posts: 510 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2005
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agrgurich
Shipmate
# 5724
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Posted
Sarah Palin will be speaking to the Republicans tonight. She will be nominated & has a good chance of be elected. The chance of her withdrawl is ZERO. All of the attacks are just making her more popular.
Many of you seem to be living in some sort of parallel world that I don't recognize. Now go back to your fantasies.
By the way, to get back to the real word, Joe Liberman made a great speech to the Republicans last night.
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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole
AJG
Posts: 4478 | From: Michigan's Copper Country | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Sarah Palin:
a) Has a very young child with Down's Syndrome
b) Has a teenage daughter who is pregnant (and is - seemingly - being forced into marriage with the father despite the fact that they may not really want to get married or that they are hopelessly too young to do so).
Are you really telling me that a good mother would choose at this time to run for VP? What damage is being done to Bristol by all this attention being focussed on her? Just how much love and care will Palin be able to give her young child - or will that be pushed off onto a nanny?
Hey, she's just volunteering for the Great American Speedup, and identifying with all couples both of whom must moonlight to make ends meet. Most of them have no choice, kids or no kids. (If you're the gambling type, you can always consider the possibility of coming to the attention of the President of the United States, who will give you your fifteen minutes of fame by putting you on TV next to him and proudly pointing out to the nation what an exemplary American you are.) If Mrs. Palin does the same voluntarily-- well, doesn't it make her act all the more noble? It does so according to many Christians anyway, although Jews beg to differ. I'm pleased to see some of us thinking like the Jews here.
Seriously, although I'm no friend of "Yukon Barbie" as she has been called, this criticism doesn't quite ring true to me, in two ways. First, could you enlarge upon why a child with Down's Syndrome needs Mother's care per se any more than any other child does? Secondly, if one is tapped on the shoulder to serve one's country in this manner, it is quite conceivable to regard it as a great honor and a call of duty, which it would be unpatriotic to decline. A family with any class at all would know how to keep the stiff upper lip and make the appropriate sacrifices.
[ 03. September 2008, 18:29: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agrgurich:
Sarah Palin will be speaking to the Republicans tonight.
I bet she gets a higher viewership than McCain's speech will. Whether people are knee-jerk attracted or repulsed, just about everybody is curious about her.
I rather expect that she'll make it less lkely that McCain will get elected. There is an emerging narrative about McCain that he has the reckless soul of a fighter pilot. That ties the known facts about him together in a way that gives him his due while making him seem like a bad choice for POTUS. Palin really helped make that view gel.
Of course, I was going to vote D before this -- I just have a higher expectation that we really will elect the first Black POTUS now. Thanks, John.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
...Secondly, if one is tapped on the shoulder to serve one's country in this manner, it is quite conceivable to regard it as a great honor and a call of duty, which it would be unpatriotic to decline. A family with any class at all would know how to keep the stiff upper lip and make the appropriate sacrifices.
Exactly. This silliness about Palin making a bad choice is a non-issue. How many volunteer soldiers in Iraq have missed their child's birth? No one seems to think they have improper priorities.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
...Secondly, if one is tapped on the shoulder to serve one's country in this manner, it is quite conceivable to regard it as a great honor and a call of duty, which it would be unpatriotic to decline. A family with any class at all would know how to keep the stiff upper lip and make the appropriate sacrifices.
Exactly. This silliness about Palin making a bad choice is a non-issue. How many volunteer soldiers in Iraq have missed their child's birth? No one seems to think they have improper priorities.
Oh, Puhlease! Going off to combat because you have to is a very different commitment from accepting the second most coveted job in the country. I'm sure any politician worth his bribe can claim that it's a great sacrifice to live in luxury at tax-payer's expense. But, if it's not your pony, why bother shoveling the manure...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Attacks on the Palin family because their daughter is having a baby out of wedlock at 17 are vile.
They are not as vile as the decades of Republican attacks on so-called 'welfare mothers' who are too poor to have a mom who is running for VP to sort things for them. Palin's vetoing of money for a home for such mothers (op cit) which would help them to care for their babies (rather than getting an abortion) and acquire the skills they need to continue to support their child is a prime example.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Oh, Puhlease! Going off to combat because you have to is a very different commitment...
--Tom Clune
Which part of "volunteer army" do you not understand?
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Oh, Puhlease! Going off to combat because you have to is a very different commitment...
--Tom Clune
Which part of "volunteer army" do you not understand?
The stop-loss part, same as our soldiers. Thanks for asking.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
First, could you enlarge upon why a child with Down's Syndrome needs Mother's care per se any more than any other child does?
A disabled child doesn't need parental care more than a nondisabled child does, but such a child does in fact need more parental care than does a nondisabled child.
I had decided, way back when, that I couldn't support Edwards because I've seen what it took when a friend's wife was dying of cancer. The time and effort (physical and emotional) required to care for a spouse with cancer seemed incompatible with the job of POTUS. Likewise, the time and effort required to care for an infant with Downs syndrome seems incompatible with the job of POTUS.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
They are not as vile as the decades of Republican attacks on so-called 'welfare mothers' who are too poor to have a mom who is running for VP to sort things for them. Palin's vetoing of money for a home for such mothers (op cit) which would help them to care for their babies (rather than getting an abortion) and acquire the skills they need to continue to support their child is a prime example.
I made a mistake yesterday in picking up on an early report that proved false. You caught that, and I appreciate it. Let me return the favor. Hiro's Leap cites a story above that suggests Gov. Palin may simply have brought the increase in the budget for that establishment in line with other increases. One problem with evaluating the record of someone nobody had heard of until this week is that there's a lot of unvetted reporting out there, too.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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