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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
I don't think we will be hearing Palin's whiney voice in California. I think that ticket knows that the jig is up out here.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I think Biden's tone was rancorous but Palin, not having been selected yet, escaped his attention.
Except she had been announced, nearly a week before Biden's speech. I'm pretty sure she had his attention. If you didn't watch the speeches, you're not qualified to pass judgment on their tone.
And I said "someone on the Faith in Public Life" blog, not "Obama". This is typical neoconservative rhetoric -- whatever someone who supports a candidate says somehow morphs into that candidate saying it. It's dishonest and disgusting. True conservatives -- the ones who don't buy into the right-wing hate-mongering -- are better than that.
[ 07. September 2008, 03:42: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
quote:
LynnMagdalenCollege wrote: Being a TV-free zone, I didn't watch any of the speeches but I've heard most of them. I think Biden's tone was rancorous but Palin, not having been selected yet, escaped his attention. I've heard far more criticism out of Obama's mouth than McCain's but perhaps that's simply because he gets a lot more media time.
Or perhaps LynnMagdalenCollege reached that erroneous conclusion because she didn't watch any of the speeches and is unaware of what John McCain is saying in his television ads and appearances.
quote:
To me this is part of the classic divide: people get involved, dive in, volunteer - and the liberal side of things sees that as direction to go find someone willing to pay you to do full-time what lots of people do after work and on weekends out of the goodness of their hearts and a vision for an improved community.
I asked LynnMagdalenCollege earlier in this thread if she had any grasp whatsoever of what it meant for the President of the Harvard Law Review to turn his back on a life of guaranteed corporate riches to dedicate himself to the service of others. I think I just got my answer.
(cross-posted with Erin)
[ 07. September 2008, 03:52: Message edited by: Presleyterian ]
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Anybody who thinks Jesus was "a community organizer" doesn't know Jesus, at least not the one I find scripture... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) (although, if Obama thinks that, it would explain a lot of his megalomania)
You were sold a bill of goods about Obama's "megalomania". You bought it hook, line, and sinker. You're exactly what the GOP wants.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I think Biden's tone was rancorous but Palin, not having been selected yet, escaped his attention.
Except she had been announced, nearly a week before Biden's speech. I'm pretty sure she had his attention. If you didn't watch the speeches, you're not qualified to pass judgment on their tone.
I'd actually argue that someone who only heard the speeches (and thus wasn't distracted by the visuals) is better qualified to make observations on 'tone'. I'm sorry, I thought you meant Biden's speech at the Dem's convention (which one did you mean?); Palin hadn't been selected yet for that one. quote:
And I said "someone on the Faith in Public Life" blog, not "Obama". This is typical neoconservative rhetoric -- whatever someone who supports a candidate says somehow morphs into that candidate saying it. It's dishonest and disgusting. True conservatives -- the ones who don't buy into the right-wing hate-mongering -- are better than that.
Why do you assume that I was putting those words into Obama's mouth? I know full well it was a quote from a faith-in-public-life blog (you said so and I believe you) - it just struck me that if Obama also thinks of Jesus as a community organizer, he might feel he's moving in particularly exalted footsteps, one trusts to a very different conclusion.
Frankly, Obama doesn't make sense to me at all; the inside of his head, his thinking is obscure to me. When he says things like, "this is the day the planet started to heal" referencing his nomination, I am genuinely confused - does he actually see himself in such exalted, important terms? Personally, I find it kinda creepy. So within the struggle to make sense of the man (because he may well be my next president), I pay attention to what he says and what the movement around him says and then I wonder, "hmm, does he agree with that? Does that make sense to him?" Since his experience of Christianity is within Reverend Wright's church (a very particular brand of the faith), perhaps he was taught that Jesus was a community organizer, who knows? I certainly don't and I doubt if anyone on this thread does.
But I didn't put the words into his mouth; I wondered about his thinking quote:
(although, if Obama thinks that, it would explain a lot of his megalomania)
I'm going to be wondering about his thinking for the next two months at least, and I do so with far less paranoia than many of the posters on this thread who are wondering about McCain.
Presleyterian, I've got very limited time right now and this thread is of less interest to me than any number of other threads which I'm neglecting; I'm not really staying on top of the Ship. But what do I think it means for the President of the Harvard Law Review to turn his back on a life of guaranteed corporate riches to dedicate himself to the service of others? I think it means he had a higher goal - and clearly I'm right: he's aiming at the Presidency of the United States and this was part of his path. That doesn't mean it was entirely cynical or self-serving. But neither was it entirely selfless.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
But what do I think it means for the President of the Harvard Law Review to turn his back on a life of guaranteed corporate riches to dedicate himself to the service of others? I think it means he had a higher goal - and clearly I'm right: he's aiming at the Presidency of the United States and this was part of his path. That doesn't mean it was entirely cynical or self-serving. But neither was it entirely selfless.
I think you posted this to the wrong bulletin board; it surely was intended for the freepers.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You were sold a bill of goods about Obama's "megalomania". You bought it hook, line, and sinker. You're exactly what the GOP wants.
As indicated in my previous post, I've listened a lot. I've heard lots of Obama speeches and I've watched the formation of a following which is really impressive. I've seen very little self-effacement in Obama, very little humility. I'll like him better with more life under his belt and, frankly, with some failure under his belt - I think that will round him out. I don't think he's ready for the presidency and that's been my opinion for more than a year now; nothing he's done in the interim has changed my initial opinion of him. I've mostly been impressed by the influence of the media and was fascinated to see the media turn on the Clintons; I think they were truly shocked by that; so much of this nation, including lots of Republicans and independents, have assumed the Democratic nomination was in the bag for Hilary.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
quote:
Lynn MagdalenCollege: But what do I think it means for the President of the Harvard Law Review to turn his back on a life of guaranteed corporate riches to dedicate himself to the service of others? I think it means he had a higher goal - and clearly I'm right: he's aiming at the Presidency of the United States and this was part of his path. That doesn't mean it was entirely cynical or self-serving. But neither was it entirely selfless.
Yeah -- and Mother Teresa did all that charity stuff to get herself n the cover of Time magazine.
No, I'm not likening Senator Obama and Mother Teresa. I'm just thinking it must be rather sad to go through life viewing other people's sacrifices and service through such a cynical lens.
I know any number of Ivy-educated attorneys who work as prosecutors or public defenders or practice at legal clinics representing the interest of abused kids in court. They park their 15-year-old Toyatas in front of studio apartments rather than pull Beamers into three-car garages attached to McMansions. They could quit their NGO or public sector jobs tomorrow and easily quadruple their salaries. But no. They feel called to a life of service, regardless of the sacrifice it entails.
The bastards. Clearly they're up to something.
P.S. On the subject of failure, Barack Obama took on powerful Congressman Bobby Rush -- and lost.
[ 07. September 2008, 04:51: Message edited by: Presleyterian ]
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I think you posted this to the wrong bulletin board; it surely was intended for the freepers.
Ok I give up ... ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ... what is/are "freepers?"
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I've heard lots of Obama speeches and I've watched the formation of a following which is really impressive. I've seen very little self-effacement in Obama, very little humility.
People with a lot of humility don't get elected president. Nobody could possibly think they're qualified, and thinking you're qualified is proof positive you're not. And yet we have to elect somebody. But looking at a presidential candidate and saying, "he's not very humble" ... well, what were you expecting?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Frankly, Obama doesn't make sense to me at all; the inside of his head, his thinking is obscure to me. When he says things like, "this is the day the planet started to heal" referencing his nomination, I am genuinely confused - does he actually see himself in such exalted, important terms? Personally, I find it kinda creepy.
Or maybe he just knows how to make a stirring, inspiring speech? Napoleon Bonaparte (of all people ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ) said that "A leader is a dealer in hope". It's struck me recently that Obama deals in hope. Which I frankly prefer to the rhetoric coming from the other side. Even if it may be naive and overblown on occasions.
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I think you posted this to the wrong bulletin board; it surely was intended for the freepers.
Ok I give up ... ... what is/are "freepers?"
As Josephine's link says, freepers are the members of freerepublic.com. Between them and dailykos.com, I don't think there's a single conspiracy theory left untheoried in the entire universe. But it's fabulous entertainment.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
I don't think we will be hearing Palin's whiney voice in California. I think that ticket knows that the jig is up out here.
Obama has California tied up tight. (I saw my folks over Labor Day, and those life-long Republicans are voting for Obama; it's not unheard of for them to vote Democratic, but only after a Democrat up for re-election has had a reasonably okay first term or a Republican has seriously messed up in office). The Obama campaign is recruiting people here to work phone banks calling people in Nevada, which looks like it could go either way, according to Fivethirtyeight.com. Actually, on Obama's website they're recruiting folks to call Nevada, New Mexico, Iowa, Ohio and New Hampshire, which is kind of interesting. I would have thought they'd be pretty confident about New Mexico.
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollegeI'd actually argue that someone who only heard the speeches (and thus wasn't distracted by the visuals) is better qualified to make observations on 'tone'.
What visuals? Watching people give speeches is so visually boring that I crocheted all the way through. I looked up often enough to see if I thought people believed what they were saying -- Laura Bush looked like she'd really rather have been elsewhere -- but really, I don't see how you can say anything during any of the speeches over the last two weeks was visually distracting.
Well, okay, the lawn that made it look like they'd put McCain in front of another lime green backdrop made me laugh. And I did spend some time trying to figure out how people got "Greek temple" out of Obama's set-up -- it looked more like some of the West Wing shots of the White House to me.
But seriously, no, you're not more qualified to make observations on tone than those of us who had our TVs on. Obama and Biden were critical, scathing even, but they weren't mean. Palin was just flat-out mean. McCain backhanded every intelligent woman in American right across the face with that choice, and I hope after he loses he's as ashamed of himself as he should be.
quote:
I'm going to be wondering about his thinking for the next two months at least, and I do so with far less paranoia than many of the posters on this thread who are wondering about McCain.
Would you care to back up the charge of paranoia by citing instances from people's posts that might illustrate such a thing?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
But what do I think it means for the President of the Harvard Law Review to turn his back on a life of guaranteed corporate riches to dedicate himself to the service of others? I think it means he had a higher goal - and clearly I'm right: he's aiming at the Presidency of the United States and this was part of his path. That doesn't mean it was entirely cynical or self-serving. But neither was it entirely selfless.
And presumably we should discount McCain's war record as he probably let himself be captured so in future decades lots of stupid people would think it relevant, feel sympathy and vote for him. It was all in his plan for being president one day!
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
But what do I think it means for the President of the Harvard Law Review to turn his back on a life of guaranteed corporate riches to dedicate himself to the service of others? I think it means he had a higher goal - and clearly I'm right: he's aiming at the Presidency of the United States and this was part of his path. That doesn't mean it was entirely cynical or self-serving. But neither was it entirely selfless.
And presumably we should discount McCain's war record as he probably let himself be captured so in future decades lots of stupid people would think it relevant, feel sympathy and vote for him. It was all in his plan for being president one day!
I think the point is this: as was painfully clear during the Republican convention, McCain's war record has been given full retail value for the last, what? 40 years? No one except GW Bush when he was running against McCain has depricated that service at all. It is praised from all quarters, and rightfully so.
But the Republican attack machine does not honor other people's service. Lynn didn't make up the idea of Obama being a megalomaniac who never did a selfless thing in his life -- that is standard Republican attack politics. And it is despicable to deny anyone except your guy honor or integrity.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I suspect "they" didn't strategize the use of the song but simply went with it because Sarah herself has the association from high school because, in the context of basketball, being a barracuda is a good thing.
Even in the context of basketball, I don't think it was a good thing. From the woman In Wasilla who knows Palin (Nicole's link)
quote:
Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah. They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made point guard on the high school basketball team.
As to her tone. You can hear sarcasm and derision, but you really needed to see her turn her head and lift her upper lip in a sneer when she said, "Commuuunity oooorganiiiiiser."
It was the kind of thing that's been known to cause loving parents, to slap their teenage daughters.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
I just find it hilarious that they would chose that song simply because of one word, without any regard for it's actual context and meaning.
It's even more embarrassing in historical context because they ought to learn: IIRC Reagan in either '80 or '84 was playing Born In The USA at his rallies. It reminds me of years ago when I was listening to Rush Limbaugh and to my utter amazement whoever was in charge of the 'bumper' music played some Cockburn: I can't help thinking there are subversives everywhere.
(Unless... unless... the repubs are subliminally sending a message to voters reminding them the dems started Vietnam and largely controlled the music industry. Haven't heard THAT one before, huh, Erin? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
I digress: allow me to use this opportunity to highlight another 'Bruce' song
57 Channels (And Nothin' On)
[Ooops: silly me. This is the right link.] ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I suspect "they" didn't strategize the use of the song but simply went with it because Sarah herself has the association from high school because, in the context of basketball, being a barracuda is a good thing.
Even in the context of basketball, I don't think it was a good thing. From the woman In Wasilla who knows Palin (Nicole's link)
quote:
Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah. They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made point guard on the high school basketball team.
As to her tone. You can hear sarcasm and derision, but you really needed to see her turn her head and lift her upper lip in a sneer when she said, "Commuuunity oooorganiiiiiser."
delivered in a particularly irritating, nasal accent.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196
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Posted
Meanwhile, given other of Palin's stances, this can come as no surprise.
But having lost one valued friend to such an effort many years ago -- he committed suicide after months of strenuous "conversion" efforts failed to alter his sexual orientation -- I do hope people begin to realize just how out-of-touch with reality this candidate is.
Posts: 2301 | From: Upper right-hand corner | Registered: May 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
delivered in a particularly irritating, nasal accent.
Come to think of it, she may be the next Churchill.
(I'll grant you it's a bit of a stretch.)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Foolhearty:
Meanwhile, given other of Palin's stances, this can come as no surprise.
I share your dislike for gay conversion ministries, but isn't raising this very similar to the GOP trying to make trouble over Obama's church?
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Obama has California tied up tight. (I saw my folks over Labor Day, and those life-long Republicans are voting for Obama; it's not unheard of for them to vote Democratic, but only after a Democrat up for re-election has had a reasonably okay first term or a Republican has seriously messed up in office).
Mine, too. I talk to my Dad when I know what the undecideds are going to do -- he finds Palin interesting, but way scary as a potential president.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Foolhearty:
Meanwhile, given other of Palin's stances, this can come as no surprise.
But having lost one valued friend to such an effort many years ago -- he committed suicide after months of strenuous "conversion" efforts failed to alter his sexual orientation -- I do hope people begin to realize just how out-of-touch with reality this candidate is.
To be fair, we don't know she believes this - anymore than Obama endorsed some of his pastor's wilder claims. (If she does, it suggests she is unable to evaluate scientific research which is depressing.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
delivered in a particularly irritating, nasal accent.
Come to think of it, she may be the next Churchill.
(I'll grant you it's a bit of a stretch.)
ya think???????????? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
(I'll grant you it's a bit of a stretch.)
A bit?!
Lord Have Mercy!
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
Churchill is highly overrated, but I do think he was a far better propagandist and general BS artist than Gov. Palin.
As a thoughtful, well-informed voter, I must object to another suggestion posted on this thread: that anyone who doesn't vote for Sen. Obama is a racist. No, no more than anyone who didn't vote for Sen. Clinton made a choice based on misogyny. It's all about the issues, at least for me.
I rejoice that we're finally at the point, as a nation, that a black man and a woman finally have a shot at the White House. I regret that their politics make it impossible for me to cast a vote for either of them.
(I fear the ghost of my librarian mother would rise up and haunt me if I helped Gov. Palin go to Washington.)
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
So who does that leave you voting for - is there a Labour candidate ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
... is there a Labour candidate ?
Wikipedia has this list of major other candidates:
quote:
The Libertarian Party has nominated former Congressman Bob Barr, the Constitution Party has nominated pastor and radio talk show host Chuck Baldwin, and the Green Party has nominated former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. Ralph Nader ... is running as an independent candidate.
and also a bigger list
The Prohibition Party candidate will also sell you a kit to make your car run on water - you can't make this stuff up!
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Hmm the other choices aren't that convincing are they - I'd probably end up voting Cynthia McKinney if not Obama (if I had a vote).
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
delivered in a particularly irritating, nasal accent.
Come to think of it, she may be the next Churchill.
(I'll grant you it's a bit of a stretch.)
Come off it dude! I still remember those 'Is Bush the next Churchill' threads.
I'm a big fan of Churchill but the chances of a High Tory Imperialist in a mano-a-mano against the nihilst revolution is not what we are being offered here.
Generally I regard US elections as being like those episodes of Smallville where Lex and Lana have to fight the flesh eating monster from the Phantom Zone. Granted you are going to root for Lex and Lana (the Democrats) but they are only the good guys by dint of their role of the lesser of two evils.
Barack Obama strikes me as being a dovish social democrat, which I find utterly boggling, but as the second place Republican candidate ran as a social populist, who knows. Perhaps after a few terms of good government we will have to put up with Americans claiming that they are Scandinavia-on-the-Potomac and that we Europeans are nasty neo-liberals. Who knows?
Incidentally those of you who wrote to the secret service warning about an Al-Qaeda hit against Obama ought to let them know about the possibility of the 'base' getting more and more infuriated as McCain does his whole bi-partisan thang with a Democrat Congress and Senate and starts thumbing the pages of 'Guns and Ammo' magazine and musing about how much better it would be with that nice Sarah Palin in the White House.
[ 07. September 2008, 20:27: Message edited by: Gildas ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Churchill was a good war leader, but he was also a eugenisist, and fairly vicious in support of the upper classes & empire. Have to say, my admiration for him is fairly mixed.
There were reasons he was voted out of office immediately after the war.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
As a thoughtful, well-informed voter, I must object to another suggestion posted on this thread: that anyone who doesn't vote for Sen. Obama is a racist.
I must have missed the post where that was said.
Can you quote it please.
Posts: 2044 | From: Auckland | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This is an interesting analysis of Obama's stump speech, I'd be interested to see something simliar on McCain's performance.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
the liberal side of things sees that as direction to go find someone willing to pay you to do full-time what lots of people do after work and on weekends out of the goodness of their hearts and a vision for an improved community.
According to Wikipedia, his employer at the time was "the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland, West Pullman, and Riverdale) on Chicago's far South Side.[12][14]"
So you're telling eight Catholic parishes that they're part of the "liberal side of things" and that they really shouldn't be hiring anyone to do this work, it should be all-volunteer? ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) I'm familiar with the attitude. Some people (many of the same people, I suspect) also think that church musicians shouldn't be paid for what they do, either.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
So who does that leave you voting for - is there a Labour candidate ?
I'll vote Libertarian, as a matter of principle. I can't hold my nose long enough or tightly enough to cast a vote for either the Demublicans or the Republocrats.
quote:
Originally posted by TA:
I must have missed the post where that was said.
Can you quote it please.
Gosh, your short-term memory must be going. It was you, quoting some pompous twit writing in Newspeak.
Simple-minded conclusions are ever so much easier than thinking things through, aren't they? Wholesale denunciations are probably more enjoyable for a certain mindset, too.
Unfortunately for fans of that perspective, I'm not a statist, I think there are already too many government entitlements, and I decline to vote for anyone who has already declared that we need to pay for more. The candidate's color and chromosomes are really not relevant.
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I see - to me that looks like social darwnism that fails to understand and account for complex social and structural dynamics. May you never be old, poor, ill and childless in a truely libertarian society. But clearly YMMV.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
So who does that leave you voting for - is there a Labour candidate ?
I'll vote Libertarian, as a matter of principle. I can't hold my nose long enough or tightly enough to cast a vote for either the Demublicans or the Republocrats.
quote:
Originally posted by TA:
I must have missed the post where that was said.
Can you quote it please.
Gosh, your short-term memory must be going. It was you, quoting some pompous twit writing in Newspeak.
Simple-minded conclusions are ever so much easier than thinking things through, aren't they? Wholesale denunciations are probably more enjoyable for a certain mindset, too.
Unfortunately for fans of that perspective, I'm not a statist, I think there are already too many government entitlements, and I decline to vote for anyone who has already declared that we need to pay for more. The candidate's color and chromosomes are really not relevant.
Ross
I smell a fan of the Ayn Rand school
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I read the wiki entry on Ayn Rand - incredibly depressing philosophy (and who wants to be buried witha dollar sign wreath ?) However, the libetarians are slightly different in their views - believing, for example, that charity is a good idea.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Gosh, your short-term memory must be going. It was you, quoting some pompous twit writing in Newspeak.
No, my memory is fine, it's just your comprehension skills [again] letting you down.
Since you can't get it on your own, I'll run it through for you:
The pompous twit said, "The reason Obama isn't ahead right now is that he trails badly among one group, older white voters".
I'm quite sure even ESOL students would realise that that does not mean;
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
...that anyone who doesn't vote for Sen. Obama is a racist.
Is it necessary for me to put a large QED in now?
You are demonstrably and horribly wrong.
Nothing new.
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Simple-minded conclusions are ever so much easier than thinking things through, aren't they?[
And how deliciously ironic that you'd post that straight after making a total fool of yourself by misquoting what was said!
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Wholesale denunciations are probably more enjoyable for a certain mindset, too.
You mean like repeatedly denouncing people as having junior high level opinion only - because you disagree with them?
Quite agree.
Posts: 2044 | From: Auckland | Registered: Nov 2006
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
I smell a fan of the Ayn Rand school
Good Lord, no. I could never be an Objectivist. Rand was a totally self-centered atheist who despised the music of Beethoven, smoked incessantly, ruined the lives of her disciples, and wrote really bad novels filled with windy speechifying. I think both she and her philosophy are loathesome.
Please don't put words on my keyboard.
I am not heartless. I just don't want government poking around in either our wallets or our bedrooms. Unfortunately, neither major party seems to have a problem with those practices.
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Ah an old school moderate Republican Episcopalian. I thought they went the way of the dodo. Aren't all Episcopalians, Democrats, now?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Ah an old school moderate Republican Episcopalian. I thought they went the way of the dodo. Aren't all Episcopalians, Democrats, now?
except that MOderate (old liberal) Republicans believed in the redistribution of wealth and many of the New Deal reforms.
Libertarians are a very different breed indeed.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The Libertarian motto is, "I'm on board now -- pull up the ladder."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
It seems to me that the only thing that a Libertarian would find un-vomit-worthy in a President Palin is her admission that she once smoked marijuana - of course that was before she found the Lord Jesus.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lady in red:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Frankly, Obama doesn't make sense to me at all; the inside of his head, his thinking is obscure to me. When he says things like, "this is the day the planet started to heal" referencing his nomination, I am genuinely confused - does he actually see himself in such exalted, important terms? Personally, I find it kinda creepy.
Or maybe he just knows how to make a stirring, inspiring speech? Napoleon Bonaparte (of all people ) said that "A leader is a dealer in hope". It's struck me recently that Obama deals in hope. Which I frankly prefer to the rhetoric coming from the other side. Even if it may be naive and overblown on occasions.
I think there's a lot of truth to the Napoleonic quotation. I think there's also something profoundly broken about our political system as it's currently evolved: any time people (on either side) are glad of bad situations because they know they can spin it effectively, there's something very sick.
Personally, I don't find Obama inspiring at all but clearly many, many people do (on an almost Beatlemania kind of level) - I hear him and think, "wait, what do you mean, how do you intend to do that?" On the other hand, I can't think of any politician who has inspired me - I'm not sure I know how to short circuit that 'critical' part of my brain (although both music and film can do it, but there's also a willing suspension of disbelief, at least with film).
I'm very grieved by how partisan the government has become. I remember some of the stupid things people said during the election of JFK, through that childish haze, but my sense of it was that people were better then at putting aside the rancor and pulling together after the election. It's been a really long time since I've seen that--
RuthW, it wasn't a serious argument that I'm better able to discern tone so much as questioning the assertion that if I've only heard the speeches rather than also watching the speeches, I have no right to comment. In which case I think you're arguing on my side since you crocheted your way through the speeches and only rarely looked up. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
SeraphimSarov said:
delivered in a particularly irritating, nasal accent.
Do you find her voice more annoying than Hilary's? HC takes on a strident quality which is fingernails on chalkboard for me (she starts well but she winds up in a pitch that's hard for me to listen to, just physically hard). I don't like Sarah's voice but she doesn't grate me the same way Hilary does (and this is entirely vocal quality, not content).
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Palin's creationism and fundie views are not playing well this side of the pond.
Satirists coming out with lines like - "You know she believes Tom & Jerry are true ? McCain says no-one thought to ask her about this during the vetting ..." "and she's anti-abortion, she wants to reverse Roe v Wade - in fact she wants to make it retroactive, women will be forced to locate the original men and re-impregnate themselves ..."
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The Libertarian motto is, "I'm on board now -- pull up the ladder."
I think the thing about Libertarians is that they know very little about how society or government work. They are vaguely aware of this thing called the graduated income tax and this other thing called poor people and have worked out that if government stops doing things for the latter it will be able to cut the former.
Beyond that they don't have a thought in their little heads, bless them. Take away the nasty graduated income tax and the pixies will do all the things that the government does.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The Libertarian motto is, "I'm on board now -- pull up the ladder."
I think the thing about Libertarians is that they know very little about how society or government work. They are vaguely aware of this thing called the graduated income tax and this other thing called poor people and have worked out that if government stops doing things for the latter it will be able to cut the former.
Beyond that they don't have a thought in their little heads, bless them. Take away the nasty graduated income tax and the pixies will do all the things that the government does.
My father was a mainstream liberal in the 50s and 60s, was active in the civil rights movement (he went to Selma and DC), etc. He ended his days as a Libetarian. It wasn't that he didn't have any sense of how government worked -- he had lost faith that it worked. It rather reminds me of Yeats' poem, Why Should Not Old Men Be Mad?
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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