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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by New Yorker:

quote:
She didn't know what the Bush Doctrine was. So what. Even I couldn't remember til Charlie told her.
I would rather hope, New Yorker, that candidates for high office knew rather more than you about foreign policy.

Actually, I would rather hope that candidates for Municipal Rat Catcher knew rather more than you about foreign policy.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Laura
General nuisance
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Obama also got into the Senate (a position of National authority) in a bruising hard-fought campaign and has served there with distinction. Sarah Palin virtually walked into the governorship of a backwater state far easier to govern than say, Texas or California or even Rhode Island (sorry, but it's true) and her time there has been distinguished by nothing to speak of but some pretty embarrassing right-wing whack-job antics (already detailed in this thread). Her mayoralty of a tiny town, where the mayor was primarily a ceremonial role with a council that really ran the show, is not worth bringing up.

Being a community organizer, by the way, is nothing to sneeze at, either. If Sarah Palin had Obama's experience, no republican would be making nasty noises about community organizing and being a senator. I try to be very fair, rigorously so -- I would never say John McCain has no business running for president. I wouldn't even say that about George Bush, though I think he's arguably the worst president we've ever had (and there's some stiff competition for anchorman of the presidency). Sarah Palin has no business being a heartbeat away from the presidency. Indeed, picking her means McCain is not putting country first, as he so likes to claim. This is serious business. I don't care if I connect with someone on a gut level. I want someone who can run this country in time of huge challenge and isn't a screaming right or left-wing freak.

As Jon Stewart said:
quote:
Doesn't elite mean good? Is that not something we're looking for in a president anymore? The job you're applying for, if you get it, and it goes well, they might carve your head into a mountain. If you don't actually think you are better than us, then what the f@*k are you doing? Not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who is embarrassingly superior to me. I want someone who speaks sixteen languages and sleeps two hours a night hanging upside down in a chamber they themselves designed


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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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Excellent coverage of the Obama Antichrist issue on the Ship of Fools magazine...

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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In the primary, John McCain claimed Rudy Giuliani didn't have the foreign policy credentials to be president because he was "a mayor for a short period of time," and Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney didn't because each of them was "a governor for a short period of time."

So... Sarah Palin, who was a mayor of a much, much smaller city than Giuliani, and a much, much less populated state than either Huckabee or Romney, can be a heartbeat away from the presidency... why?

The link goes to a vid.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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So, when do independents and swing voters start to "lock down" their vote? Up here, we get huge swings and roundabouts potentially until two weeks before, and then it starts to coalesce into decisions, checked at the last minute to ensure we don't do something stupid (having had recent experience at that).

Is there a time of no return for either candidate? Cause in one week, I've seen the % chance of McCain winning a state rise from 38% to 58% on the 538.com website, and forgive me if I'm a bit incredulous as to the validity of that swing.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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New Yorker
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# 9898

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
One important difference, of course, is that you are not a candidate for Vice President.

That's proof positive that the world is nuts.
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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
In the primary, John McCain claimed Rudy Giuliani didn't have the foreign policy credentials to be president because he was "a mayor for a short period of time," and Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney didn't because each of them was "a governor for a short period of time."

So... Sarah Palin, who was a mayor of a much, much smaller city than Giuliani, and a much, much less populated state than either Huckabee or Romney, can be a heartbeat away from the presidency... why?

The link goes to a vid.

Yeah, but Palin was Mayor of Wasila which is like totally Gateway to Anchorage whereas Guiliani was mayor of some one horse town on the East Coast.

And Alaska, as we have already heard is slap bang next to Russia and Canada so if the US needs to attack Canada in order to put Terence and Philip in their place or engage in a pincer movement with plucky little Georgia her experience with the Alaskan National Guard will be invaluable. What's next to Massachusets? Vermont! The US is hardly going to get into a war with Vermont is it? Apples and Oranges, Apples and Oranges.

(Some of this post is going to appear in a blog written by a right wing crazy person in the near future. Some of it already has.)

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
basso

Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228

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James Fallows on Palin's unfamiliarity with the Bush Doctrine
quote:

[...]
Each of us has areas we care about, and areas we don't. If we are interested in a topic, we follow its development over the years. And because we have followed its development, we're able to talk and think about it in a "rounded" way.
[...]
Here's the most obvious example in daily life: Sports Talk radio.

Mention a name or theme -- Brett Favre, the Patriots under Belichick, Lance Armstrong's comeback, Venus and Serena -- and anyone who cares about sports can have a very sophisticated discussion about the ins and outs and myth and realities and arguments and rebuttals.

People who don't like sports can't do that. It's not so much that they can't identify the names -- they've heard of Armstrong -- but they've never bothered to follow the flow of debate.
[...]
What Sarah Palin revealed is that she has not been interested enough in world affairs to become minimally conversant with the issues. Many people in our great land might have difficulty defining the "Bush Doctrine" exactly. But not to recognize the name, as obviously was the case for Palin, indicates not a failure of last-minute cramming but a lack of attention to any foreign-policy discussion whatsoever in the last seven years.

The whole article is worth reading.
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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
One important difference, of course, is that you are not a candidate for Vice President.

That's proof positive that the world is nuts.
[Big Grin] [Big Grin]

--Tom Clune

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CorgiGreta
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# 443

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Even though I doubt that I agree with him on single issue, I think that I would be far less frightened by the prospect of a President New Yorker than a President Palin.

Greta

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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I think Palin has revealed herself to be shallow and ignorant. I'd like to think that would hurt her, but it seemed to work out fine for the present incumbent.

I guess the McCain campaign, having figured that Obama was winning through superficial charisma, decided they'd better get some superficial charisma of their own. And Paris Hilton seems to be a Democrat.

Line from yesterday's Portland Mercury: "What's the difference between Sarah Palin and Dan Quayle? Lipstick!"

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
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The Atheist
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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
I think Palin has revealed herself to be shallow and ignorant. I'd like to think that would hurt her, but it seemed to work out fine for the present incumbent.

I guess the McCain campaign, having figured that Obama was winning through superficial charisma, decided they'd better get some superficial charisma of their own. And Paris Hilton seems to be a Democrat.

Line from yesterday's Portland Mercury: "What's the difference between Sarah Palin and Dan Quayle? Lipstick!"

Spot on!

And in the same vein, for those who haven't seen it (i.e. everyone here) today's NZ Herald has a nice editorial on the lightweight:

quote:
Perhaps the greatest irony of this irony-rich election campaign is that within weeks of the Republicans portraying Barack Obama as a political Britney Spears, a glamorous but vacuous star, they themselves are running on celebrity power.

It's Palin, not Obama, who's the Britney in this race, the candidate who's famous for being famous, the empty vessel who can be reconfigured to suit the vagaries of the market/electorate and the commercial/political imperatives of her backers.

A distinguishing feature of celebrity culture is the discrepancy between fame and achievement. Formerly mayor of a large village, Palin has been governor of a sparsely populated backwater since late 2006.

Her launch-pad was her speech at the Republican Convention, a standard hatchet job delivered with gusto but devoid of substance.

A political speech like many others then, so why the gushing praise? Because another distinguishing feature of celebrity culture is the compulsion to invest everything the star does with significance and distinction, even when it's banal or mediocre.


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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
By the way, re: voting against your own interests, Jonathan Haidt has a lot of interest to say on why people vote Republican. According to his hypothesis, Democrats fail to get this at their peril.

Even though I refuse to grant you his premise people who vote Republican are voting against their own self-interest [Big Grin] what a breath of fresh air in what is all too often an insular and stupidly partisan political debate.
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Comper's Child
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quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
By the way, re: voting against your own interests, Jonathan Haidt has a lot of interest to say on why people vote Republican. According to his hypothesis, Democrats fail to get this at their peril.

Even though I refuse to grant you his premise people who vote Republican are voting against their own self-interest [Big Grin] what a breath of fresh air in what is all too often an insular and stupidly partisan political debate.
Yes, clearly the GOP is the party of selflessness.

(sarcasm off)

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
Even though I refuse to grant you his premise people who vote Republican are voting against their own self-interest [Big Grin] what a breath of fresh air in what is all too often an insular and stupidly partisan political debate.

Out of curiosity, other than single issue voters and those in the top 5% of wealth and income, whose interest is it in to vote Republican?

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Choirboy
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# 9659

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....oooh... you can wait _years_ for a straight line like that....
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moron
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# 206

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You people make it too easy: gaffing fish in a barrel.

But please carry on.

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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
Even though I refuse to grant you his premise people who vote Republican are voting against their own self-interest [Big Grin] what a breath of fresh air in what is all too often an insular and stupidly partisan political debate.

Out of curiosity, other than single issue voters and those in the top 5% of wealth and income, whose interest is it in to vote Republican?
If I properly understood the article Laura linked to, anyone who would have supported Mussolini or Hitler...

--Tom Clune

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
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quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
Even though I refuse to grant you his premise people who vote Republican are voting against their own self-interest

What amazes me is the number of Democrats I run into who don't seem to understand how Republicans could vote against their own economic self-interest when they themselves do so all the time. They're always voting for politicians and policies that, for example, make products more expensive but more regulated/ less harmful to the environment / etc; they expect Democratic politicians to support the inheritance tax even though a lot of them (politicians) are basically the only people in the country who benefit from it's repeal.

And then they wonder why the Republicans think Democrats look down on them. Maybe because so many of them project that air of moral superiority that they find so obnoxious in born-again Christians? Of course, we sacrifice our economic self-interest for the good of the country, but we wouldn't expect you to do that.

Anyway.

Anyone else find watching McCain self-destruct (and take Palin with him) darkly fascinating? It's like a train wreck; I feel like I should look away but I just can't.

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
And then they wonder why the Republicans think Democrats look down on them. Maybe because so many of them project that air of moral superiority that they find so obnoxious in born-again Christians? Of course, we sacrifice our economic self-interest for the good of the country, but we wouldn't expect you to do that.

You must be confusing me with a Republican? You've got me dead to rights on the air of moral superiority, though. I take grim satisfaction in noting it's not an uncommon failing... and I think it was Laura who recently linked to a good article which tangentially addresses the topic.

And Tom: [Biased]

BTW, I should have said 'the' premise, not 'his'.

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
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mjg -

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to refer to you (or anyone on this thread specifically), just continuing an argument I've been having IRL a lot recently... (Four years after What's the Matter with Kansas and I'm still having it... that's depressing.)

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You're on drugs. Have you SEEN Garrison Keillor's neck?

I was speaking to the stereotype of NPR listeners. Sorry! Joke!
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
...Why people vote Republican...

Jeepers, could the professor condescend any further to people who don't share his views? I'd say he's a good example of the reasons why -- and I haven't voted Republican (except in certain local elections) in quite a while.

One could as easily ask why people vote Democratic, since the Dems are all about confiscating your hard-earned money to throw at bureaucrats and entitlements and the like.

But, then, I don't care for either major party, for reasons stated earlier in this thread.

Ross

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I'm not dead yet.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You're on drugs. Have you SEEN Garrison Keillor's neck?

I was speaking to the stereotype of NPR listeners. Sorry! Joke!
Yes, I knew that. Sorry! Joke!

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Jeepers, could the professor condescend any further to people who don't share his views? I'd say he's a good example of the reasons why -- and I haven't voted Republican (except in certain local elections) in quite a while.

You must have read a completely different article than the one I read. The one I read was very critical of Democrats and indicated three areas that inform Republican voting choices, and that Democrats would be well-advised to learn to understand and not denigrate. Three valid areas of human understanding and concern. What of what he said about those three areas did you find condescending? Please be specific.

[ 13. September 2008, 03:17: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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tclune
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I saw both McCain and Obama at Columbia University (?) on 9/11. They were interviewed by a couple of people I didn't recognize, but both candidates were gracious about each other and informative about their desires and polices. They stuck to the issues and didn't once lie about the other. It was truly refreshing. It's a shame that we can't have that level of discourse every day in our campaigns.

--Tom Clune

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Laura
General nuisance
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Jeepers, could the professor condescend any further to people who don't share his views? I'd say he's a good example of the reasons why -- and I haven't voted Republican (except in certain local elections) in quite a while.

Ah. You didn't read the article, then.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I saw both McCain and Obama at Columbia University (?) on 9/11. They were interviewed by a couple of people I didn't recognize, but both candidates were gracious about each other and informative about their desires and polices. They stuck to the issues and didn't once lie about the other. It was truly refreshing. It's a shame that we can't have that level of discourse every day in our campaigns.

--Tom Clune

Have to say I agree. I know who I am voting for, but still am impressed with the amount of class both men are showing.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
... One could as easily ask why people vote Democratic, since the Dems are all about confiscating your hard-earned money to throw at bureaucrats and entitlements and the like. ...

While that specific question was neither asked nor answered in the article, one could hypothesize from the information presented that Democratic voters place a high value on fairness and prevention of harm, and recognize that resources are needed to do something about it.

And as for throwing money at things, the Republican version of entitlements and bureaucracy would have to be military spending and the national debt and interest thereupon. They don't seem to have any qualms about throwing vast amounts of hard-earned money at those. OliviaG

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
And as for throwing money at things, the Republican version of entitlements and bureaucracy would have to be military spending and the national debt and interest thereupon. They don't seem to have any qualms about throwing vast amounts of hard-earned money at those. OliviaG

Or hard-borrowed money as is more often the case.

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IconiumBound
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# 754

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When, oh when are you going to realize that this is a race for the PRESIDENCYof the United States, not the Vice-Presidency?

The issue is not is she ready, but is McCain ready?

All discussion about Palin should be prohibited as giving aid and comfort to th enemy.

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Ah. You didn't read the article, then.

I read the first third, skimmed the next third, and gave up on it entirely after that. I just took another look, and still got condescension from his tone.
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
While that specific question was neither asked nor answered in the article, one could hypothesize from the information presented that Democratic voters place a high value on fairness and prevention of harm, and recognize that resources are needed to do something about it. ...

...or, perhaps, are voting to have other people's money spent on their own preferences.
quote:
And as for throwing money at things, the Republican version of entitlements and bureaucracy would have to be military spending and the national debt and interest thereupon. They don't seem to have any qualms about throwing vast amounts of hard-earned money at those.
Oh, I agree entirely. That's why I'm no longer a Republican and have never been a Democrat: I don't believe in living beyond one's means, I don't like big government, I don't like intrusive government, I don't want to leave my children and grandchildren in debt, and I don't want to be a citizen of an empire that has military forces stationed all over the world.

I seem to be in a minority, though.

Ross

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Ah. You didn't read the article, then.

I read the first third, skimmed the next third, and gave up on it entirely after that. I just took another look, and still got condescension from his tone.
Will you answer my question, then?

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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I found the author's tone pompous and condescending in general, MT.

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067

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quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
When, oh when are you going to realize that this is a race for the PRESIDENCYof the United States, not the Vice-Presidency?

The issue is not is she ready, but is McCain ready?

All discussion about Palin should be prohibited as giving aid and comfort to th enemy.

Which enemy are you talking about?

Not to mention that with a cancer-surviving president over 70, discussion of her presidential abilities seems pretty apposite. Even better, McCain selected her, so talking about Palin is by default talking about McCain's ability to select people for key positions in his putative government.

Here's another excellent piece on the dumb slag:

quote:
But at his [Palin's son] deployment ceremony, which was on the same day as the Charlie Gibson interview, Sept. 11, she told the audience of soldiers that they would be fighting “the enemies who planned and carried out and rejoiced in the death of thousands of Americans.”

Was she deliberately falsifying history, or does she still not know that Iraq and Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with the Sept. 11 attacks?

To burnish the foreign policy credentials of a vice presidential candidate who never even had a passport until last year, the Republicans have been touting Alaska’s proximity to Russia. (Imagine the derisive laughter in conservative circles if the Democrats had tried such nonsense.) So Mr. Gibson asked Ms. Palin, “What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?”

She said, “They’re our next-door neighbors. And you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska. From an island in Alaska.”

Mr. Gibson tried again. “But what insight does that give you,” he asked, “into what they’re doing in Georgia?”


Was written by a kaffir at NYT though, so it probably doesn't count.
Posts: 2044 | From: Auckland | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
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What a sweet lovely person Sarah Palin is, to be sure!

New Evidence: Palin Had Direct Role In Charging Rape Victims For Exams

OK, say what you like about the source of the article, but the information it quotes is directly available on-line and linked.

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Ah. You didn't read the article, then.

I read the first third, skimmed the next third, and gave up on it entirely after that. I just took another look, and still got condescension from his tone.
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
While that specific question was neither asked nor answered in the article, one could hypothesize from the information presented that Democratic voters place a high value on fairness and prevention of harm, and recognize that resources are needed to do something about it. ...

...or, perhaps, are voting to have other people's money spent on their own preferences.
quote:
And as for throwing money at things, the Republican version of entitlements and bureaucracy would have to be military spending and the national debt and interest thereupon. They don't seem to have any qualms about throwing vast amounts of hard-earned money at those.
Oh, I agree entirely. That's why I'm no longer a Republican and have never been a Democrat: I don't believe in living beyond one's means, I don't like big government, I don't like intrusive government, I don't want to leave my children and grandchildren in debt, and I don't want to be a citizen of an empire that has military forces stationed all over the world.

I seem to be in a minority, though.

Ross

what would you have done with for example,the federal civil rights laws of the 1960's?? Were those intrusive actions by the government and should never have been enacted??
I never get a straight answer on this question from Libertarians.

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
what would you have done with for example,the federal civil rights laws of the 1960's?? Were those intrusive actions by the government and should never have been enacted?? I never get a straight answer on this question from Libertarians.

Perhaps that's because your hostility is so transparent. (And perhaps you don't define "a straight answer" as others do when you're aiming at a political target.)

Both good and bad things were done with those laws -- which shouldn't be surprising to any thinking person. Mandating equal rights without regard to color (although not, lamentably, gender) was a good thing. The means used to get there was not always so good.

Busing children (I had cousins who had to ride an hour each way to and from school, in order to meet a court-ordered mandate for numbers of white and black students) long distances to fill a quota does no one any good.

Quotas, however, were an unspoken part of the law. They're a bad thing in general, as my mother learned when she was getting her master's degree at Columbia, where there was a quota limiting the number of Jews allowed to enroll. Quotas are bad for Asian students today, particularly in places like the California university system. There are always unfortunate consequences to laws which try to mandate these things.

And as Barack Obama rightly observed, there is now no particular reason for upper-middle class black children to be preferred over poor white children in things like admissions and scholarships. But they are.

It's a complex matter. Important things usually are.

Ross

[ 14. September 2008, 02:33: Message edited by: Rossweisse ]

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
When, oh when are you going to realize that this is a race for the PRESIDENCYof the United States, not the Vice-Presidency?

The issue is not is she ready, but is McCain ready?

All discussion about Palin should be prohibited as giving aid and comfort to th enemy.

Normally I'd agree with you, since up until Darth Cheney, the VP's biggest role was flying around the world frowning thoughtfully at the dead bodies of other countries' leaders. (Here's hoping we get a return to that real soon.) However, I think everyone's still recovering from the jaw-dropping gall of the Republicans to spend all that time and money slamming someone who does have national political experience while offering Creationist Barbie as their own heartbeat away. Especially since McCain is not really a spring chicken and has had a potentially terminal disease recur a few times. I mean, that's a big brass set. It's fascinating, even while you're repulsed by it.

[ 14. September 2008, 03:06: Message edited by: Erin ]

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
what would you have done with for example,the federal civil rights laws of the 1960's?? Were those intrusive actions by the government and should never have been enacted?? I never get a straight answer on this question from Libertarians.

Perhaps that's because your hostility is so transparent. (And perhaps you don't define "a straight answer" as others do when you're aiming at a political target.)

Oh no. They are very forthright (quite in your manner) about many other political topics but seem to lose their footing when it comes to civil rights. They end up torn. Either they go back to their libertarian principles regarding "states rights" which has the difficulty of putting them in the same court as old George Wallace or if they say they agree with those laws, they seem queasy because it is a contradiction because these laws were "big Government" but in a needed cause. It presents a real tension to their ideology (which perhaps is good)

It's a complex matter. Important things usually are.

Ross

Oh no. They are very forthright (quite in your manner) about many other political topics but seem to lose their footing when it comes to civil rights. They end up torn. Either they go back to their libertarian principles regarding "states rights" which has the difficulty of putting them in the same court as old George Wallace or if they say they agree with those laws, they seem queasy because it is a contradiction because these laws were "big Government" but in a needed cause. It presents a real tension to their ideology (which perhaps is good)

Indeed, it is a complex matter in the "putting into practice" stages of the legislation and in a democratic society, reforms can be made to fix problems in the implementation but not really in agreeing to the principles unless one faces that real contradiction of fearing "government intrusion" even when it was shockingly needed as in the 1960's.

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I found the author's tone pompous and condescending in general, MT.

In other words, no, you're not going to answer my request for specifics. Figures.

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Josephine

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Jeepers, could the professor condescend any further to people who don't share his views? I'd say he's a good example of the reasons why -- and I haven't voted Republican (except in certain local elections) in quite a while.

Ah. You didn't read the article, then.
I read it, and I've found myself thinking about it quite a lot. If the author is right, one of the key reasons that many people choose Republicans over Democrats is that they place a high value on loyalty to the group and respect for authority, and they don't believe that Democrats share these values.

When Democrats turn up their nose at the wrap-yourself-in-a-flag sort of patriotism that some Republicans favor, the Republicans view them as being unpatriotic and thus disloyal to the group. And when the Democrats look at the group loyalties of Republicans, and decide that Republicans aren't so much patriots as they are narrow-minded bigots who define "American" as white heterosexual middle-class native-speakers-of-English -- how is that supposed to attract a self-respecting Republican to Democratic ideas and ideals?

But what if the Democrats, instead of insulting Republicans, framed their message of inclusivity in a way that resonated with the Republican values of loyalty and respect? I don't think that would be hard to do.

Imagine, for example, a red-white-and-blue ad campaign, with a song like "This land is your land, this land is my land" running as the theme music. And the ads would use lots and lots of different Americans, in different settings, with different racial and ethnic backgrounds, different accents, different ways of dressing. Good old boys out hunting. Black teens playing basketball in a city park. The crowd singing the national anthem at a baseball game. An old man in his WWII uniform at the VFW. A potlatch. A small town fourth of July parade. A citizenship ceremony. A farmer out in the fields. Men with turbans, men with cowboy hats, women with headscarfs, women in saris, women in church hats, men and women in uniform.

America is made for you and me. We're all in this together -- all of us.

It's a message that I think might well appeal to a lot of Republicans who see Democrats as somehow unpatriotic. It reclaims the virtue of patriotism for the Democrats. And I think it would help reframe issues that appeal to Democrats in ways that Republicans could understand and support.

I don't know. Maybe I'm totally off-bse here. I'm not a marketing person, and I'm not a politician. But I think that Democrats could benefit from thinking about why so many people vote Republican. What is it they value? What are the Democrats missing? How can the Democratic message be framed to make it resonate with the typical Republican voter?

I think those are important questions, and I think that you can only get to meaningful answers if you ask the questions with humility and respect.

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the Pookah
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# 9186

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Ross;
I'm pretty much a libertarian. Vote for whomever is best, usually republican as they were for less gov't (well the Reagan type ones..) less tax and spend.
The interesting aspect is that being socially liberal I live & am surrounded by Dems, and they really don't get that there are people who differ from them and are okay;-)
They are shocked by me & think the rest are yokels and rubes or au fond deluded & possibly racists.
the Pookah

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
What a sweet lovely person Sarah Palin is, to be sure!

New Evidence: Palin Had Direct Role In Charging Rape Victims For Exams

OK, say what you like about the source of the article, but the information it quotes is directly available on-line and linked.

Well, I don't like the "charge for it" policy any better than you do, but that "to the best of our knowledge and belief" statement is standard verbiage to take responsibility for the information disclosed. It doesn't in practice declare complete awareness of everything. Delegation always involves a mixture of trust and verification. Its a pretty small budgetary item.

It's quite possible that Chief Fannon had the necessary delegated financial and policy authority and took a budgetary initiative himself. If so, not exactly a sensitive move and of course it got closed down when found out.

On the info published, you can't be sure of the truth. Yes, its possible that Sarah Palin didn't know and its also possible things happened this way with her knowledge and consent. Deniability rules may apply. Chief Fannon and Sarah Palin would know the truth of it of course, but unless there are witnesses or something in writing, we wont be able to confirm the allegations.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Zwingli
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Actually, many libertarians have thought through anti-discrimination laws. Some have even studied their effects, and found them to be at considerable variance to what their proponents claim.

Consider Nobel Prize winning economist Gary Becker in the current issue of the Becker-Posner blog. And Becker has been researching these issues for decades, and has published academic articles on these topics, so this isn't just an opinion on a blog post.

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
When, oh when are you going to realize that this is a race for the PRESIDENCYof the United States, not the Vice-Presidency?

The issue is not is she ready, but is McCain ready?

All discussion about Palin should be prohibited as giving aid and comfort to th enemy.

I find this almost willfully obtuse. As this NY Times editorial points out, Ms Palin's interview with Gibson was scripted to the max. She is presenting the "party line" of this campaign.

I am faced with two stark choices -- either McCain honestly believes that Palin represents the kind of person, experience, and insight that should be at the center of his administration or he believes that nothing but McCain is important to running the entire executive branch of government.

Either one of those possibilities are off-the-charts bad. Now, I was always going to vote Democratic anyway. But it sure seems like Palin ought to give any thoughtful Republican or independent serious pause before casting a vote for that ticket...

--Tom Clune

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I mean, that's a big brass set. It's fascinating, even while you're repulsed by it.

A maverick making a helluva tactical gamble? Or maybe he thought he had nothing to lose.

And as much as I admire Jon Stewart and would strongly consider voting for him for prez I'm not convinced we need a genius to run this country.

Give me someone who values honesty, respect for others, an awareness of and willingness to address their own shortcomings, an ability to handle stress and even if they have hardly any experience I think they can grow into the job.

Which is why I sometimes consider voting for Obama. [Smile]

If he just didn't really believe government is 'cool'... [Paranoid]

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Zorro
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tclune
quote:
I am faced with two stark choices -- either McCain honestly believes that Palin represents the kind of person, experience, and insight that should be at the center of his administration or he believes that nothing but McCain is important to running the entire executive branch of government.
Interesting point, though when I heard about her being made VP candidate I immediately thought it wasn't the sort of decision that screamed "John McCain had a say in this!"


Maybe I'm wrong but I didn't get the impression he had much to do with it-he'd met her once, he seems pretty much out of touch with a lot of what he'd said earlier in the campaign and overall not the sort of person he'd be keen on having around in his administration. Instead I got the impression she'd been picked to give a particular impression about what a McCain administration would entail.


Obviously that'd very much tally with your theories as to why she was chosen but I wondered if it wasn't a choice out of his control. I hadn't heard a list of potential veeps for him but I'd imagined someone closer to his age range, military background, etc etc, not this. Undoubtedly McCain has changed a lot as his campaign has gone on, and the suggestion (at least in the UK) is that it's much like David Cameron over here having to toe the party line rather than face splitting them up.


If I'm right and he didn't get much say in what happened then I find myself wondering when this trend will change-that of him being required more and more over time to alter his rhetoric to fit traditional Republican values. Perhaps it won't, and the early McCain we saw-far more moderate than what is apparent today was some sort of show, or if it isn't I wonder if we'll see a return to early campaign values from him if he gets elected.


Zorro.

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Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep

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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by mjg:

Give me someone who values honesty, respect for others, an awareness of and willingness to address their own shortcomings, an ability to handle stress and even if they have hardly any experience I think they can grow into the job.

Which is why I sometimes consider voting for Obama. [Smile]

Funny, it is exactly that set of reasons that Obama drives me bat-shit crazy every time he accuses McCain of believing that "rich" means "makes 5 million dollars a year," or that McCain wants to continue the war in Iraq for a hundred years. I will vote for Obama, but I would do so much more happily if he would just stop lying in the interest of looking "tough."

--Tom Clune

[ 14. September 2008, 14:33: Message edited by: tclune ]

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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
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Tina Fey nails it on SNL.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Jeepers, could the professor condescend any further to people who don't share his views? I'd say he's a good example of the reasons why -- and I haven't voted Republican (except in certain local elections) in quite a while.

Ah. You didn't read the article, then.
It's a message that I think might well appeal to a lot of Republicans who see Democrats as somehow unpatriotic. It reclaims the virtue of patriotism for the Democrats. And I think it would help reframe issues that appeal to Democrats in ways that Republicans could understand and support.

I don't know. Maybe I'm totally off-bse here. I'm not a marketing person, and I'm not a politician. But I think that Democrats could benefit from thinking about why so many people vote Republican. What is it they value? What are the Democrats missing? How can the Democratic message be framed to make it resonate with the typical Republican voter?

I think those are important questions, and I think that you can only get to meaningful answers if you ask the questions with humility and respect.

Josephine, I think you are spot on and I think many of us from the left-of-center can really be guilty of that condescension (finger pointing back to me, many times) and I agree that a truly progressive populism can fit in with some of the themes that working and middle class Republican voters can be in sync with.


Thank you!

[Axe murder] [Axe murder] [Axe murder]

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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