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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
From a blog at thenation.com :
quote:
When Obama said he was running a 57 state campaign, he was obviously playing ketchup.
Groan!
[spelling]
[ 23. September 2008, 05:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
What are the real solutions? So far as I can tell we need more oil. Only way to get that is to buy or drill for our own. So it takes ten years. If we'd started ten years ago we'd be that much further along.
I am an all of the above solution: drill here, drill now, build more nuclear plants - now, keeping looking for alternative energy. What's wrong with that?
The problem with this is it puts the emphasis in the wrong place. New drilling is unlikely to make more than a tiny difference, but it kids people that it'll solve the problem. Take a look at this graph from the US government's official EIA figures.
(In reality, the situation's worse than that, because any finds need to be split with the entire world. There's no way to keep oil 'in house', because it'll just offset demand elsewhere.)
I'm all for drilling, but the unpalatable truth is that it's only going to buy us a couple of extra years at best. We need to tackle the demand side, not just supply side - i.e. help people to find ways to cut down consumption. And the Republicans have traditionally opposed most measures to do that - e.g. tightening CAFE standards. They show no real understanding of its importance now. To be fair, a lot of Democrats aren't much better, but they at least haven't opposed energy conservation so vociferously.
(I'm away for a few days, but will happily get back to this later if you want.)
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
What is the latest day on which McCain can die without being replaced by Palin as VP?
If he dies after winning after 20 January (?) then she must succeed. Presumably if he dies before early November then the RNC just replace him. If he goes sometime in the middle, do the electoral college have free rein? Is there any point at which ballots are cancelled because a candidate has died.
(Here in the UK, if a parliamentary candidate dies between close of nominations and polling day, the election is postponed.)
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
(Here in the UK, if a parliamentary candidate dies between close of nominations and polling day, the election is postponed.)
I'm not sure that's true. I think I remember a few unlikely victories when a favourite candidate had died.
The USA is different of course. They actually elected a dead candidate to the Senate in Missouri a few years back.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Don't they keep having a plebescite in PR about statehood? Do they not do that in DC?
In Puerto Rico, the question is complicated by what the options in such a plebiscite would be: statehood vs. independence or statehood vs. status quo or statehood vs. status quo vs. independence. The status quo has some advantages (no Federal Income tax, receipt of some Federal subsidies) and disadvantages (no representation, not all Federal programs cover Puerto Rico, e.g. possibly Medicaid?) - enough to complicate the question.
Of course, it isn't up to Puerto Ricans whether they are admitted to the union or not. These are all just glorified opinion polls.
There have been several recent plebiscites in Puerto Rico in the 90s, and a couple before that. Not sure of the details.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156
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Posted
Ken
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by FreeJack:
(Here in the UK, if a parliamentary candidate dies between close of nominations and polling day, the election is postponed.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure that's true. I think I remember a few unlikely victories when a favourite candidate had died.
The USA is different of course. They actually elected a dead candidate to the Senate in Missouri a few years back.
I think FreeJack is right actually Ken, I seem to recall it happening near me a few years ago and it got postponed for a by-election on the basis that there wasn't time for the political party to get someone else to stand for them instead.
On the 2nd point, bummer being the guy having to take office after that ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Zorro.
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It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep
Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The USA is different of course. They actually elected a dead candidate to the Senate in Missouri a few years back.
He was the more reasonable alternative.
His opponent, John Ashcroft, became U.S. Atty General. I give him some credit for standing up to Bush over illegal wiretapping, even from his hospital bed. But otherwise he was a disaster for civil liberties.
He left the administration after the first term. Apparently he wasn't enough of a disaster for Bush.
In the movie 'Sideways', the characters tend to use the word 'a**hole' a lot. In the dubbed version for distribution on airlines, the word was replaced with 'Ashcroft'. He's such an Ashcroft....
[Code, grammar.]
[ 23. September 2008, 13:23: Message edited by: Choirboy ]
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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eeGAD
Wandering Stowaway
# 4675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
What is the latest day on which McCain can die without being replaced by Palin as VP?
If he dies after winning after 20 January (?) then she must succeed. Presumably if he dies before early November then the RNC just replace him. If he goes sometime in the middle, do the electoral college have free rein? Is there any point at which ballots are cancelled because a candidate has died.
Jeff Greenfield wrote a fun fictionalized story about this years ago. The People's Choice
eeG
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You don't fix faith. It fixes you. - Shepherd Book
Posts: 976 | From: The Land of Mary | Registered: Jun 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The USA is different of course. They actually elected a dead candidate to the Senate in Missouri a few years back.
He was the more reasonable alternative.
They ususally are...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
(Here in the UK, if a parliamentary candidate dies between close of nominations and polling day, the election is postponed.)
I'm not sure that's true. I think I remember a few unlikely victories when a favourite candidate had died.
The USA is different of course. They actually elected a dead candidate to the Senate in Missouri a few years back.
with the choice of John Ashcroft or a dead man, I know who I would have chosen
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FreeJack:
[qb]The USA is different of course. They actually elected a dead candidate to the Senate in Missouri a few years back.
(This works differently than presidential elections.)
This happened because the candidate for the US Senate died after the date where his name could replaced on the ballot.*
The procedure in this case was for an appointment to be made from somone nominated by the person's political party. Because it was the Senate (the House has different constitutional requirements) this person was able to serve until the next general election (which was 2 years later). At the next (general) election, there was what Canadians and Brits would call a by-election to elect someone to serve the rest of the term (in this case, 4 years). Amendment 16.
In the case of the House, no one is appointed to the seat. The state holds what is essentially a by-election within a specified number of days to fill the seat for the rest of the term. Article 1, Section 2.
Amendment 20 covers what happens if the president-elect dies before taking office or is not eligible to take office (like being born outside the US**).
*It was former US Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft that lost to a dead man. Bush rewarded his loss by appointing him attorney general.
**"No person except a natural born citizen..." states Article 2, Section 1. John McCain was not born on US soil. McCain's father was stationed in what was then the US Panama Canal Zone, where he was born. While I think it would be wrong to deny the child of someone in the military that was born in a military hospital on a military base the right to be president under the constitution, there are those who are arguing that McCain is not a natural born citizen. While I admit that those people that make that argument tend to wear tin foil hats (and say Obama is a Muslim), they are out there. (See Amendment 14 for the definition of citizenship that could cause McCain problems. McCain wasn't born in the United States.)
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
**"No person except a natural born citizen..." states Article 2, Section 1. John McCain was not born on US soil. McCain's father was stationed in what was then the US Panama Canal Zone, where he was born. While I think it would be wrong to deny the child of someone in the military that was born in a military hospital on a military base the right to be president under the constitution, there are those who are arguing that McCain is not a natural born citizen. While I admit that those people that make that argument tend to wear tin foil hats (and say Obama is a Muslim), they are out there. (See Amendment 14 for the definition of citizenship that could cause McCain problems. McCain wasn't born in the United States.)
"Wrong"'s got nothing to do with it -- it's about the law. A "natural-born citizen" includes those born to US citizens in US territory. John McCain was born to US citizens in US territory. From a legal standpoint, it's a non-issue. No matter what the tinfoil hat brigade says.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Also: why are you citing Amendment 14? That's got nothing to do with the nationality of the president at all. Section 1 of Article II of the Constitution contains the clause: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." Additionally, the Twelfth Amendment states that: "[N]o person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."
Then you go to your Fourteenth Amendment, which presents no difficulty at all: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside"
Any other knotty constitutional problems?
[ 23. September 2008, 16:11: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Get a clue. Oil companies ARTIFICIALLY create oil shortages to inflate prices at the pump. This isn't rumour-mongering from some wild-eyed conspiracy theorist. It's a cold, hard fact of modern life in the good ole USofA.
Sorry. I just don't buy that. Just because there's oil doesn't mean we have the refinery capacity to process it. Just because there's oil doesn't mean that it hasn't cost the oil companies more than it used to cost.
quote:
Now ask yourself who the Grand Old Party represents. Is it the consumer or big business? Wake up to the fact you've swallowed the company (and government) propaganda - hook, line and sinker. The GOP is not interested in the little guy. They are ONLY interested in lining their pockets and those of the corporate oligarchy.
And the Demccratic Party is any better? It could care less about Mr. Average American. All it wants to do is to lump everyone into various ethnic, gender, sexual identity group and pander to their fears. The GOP may have strong influence from corporations, but what about the Democrats with their labor unions, their teachers unions, their crack pot outfits like Planned Parenthood. Please. Talk about not caring about America. And most of the donations from the now bankrupt Freddie, Fannie, Lehman, etc went to Democrats. Sorry.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Nancy Pelosi:
I have a little fantasy that Bush and Cheney will resign or be arrested, and Nancy will ascend to the presidency. (She's next in line.)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Indeed, I saw several bumper stickers last year that read:
PELOSI FOR PRESIDENT 2007
It just doesn't have the same connotation in an election year.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
And the Demccratic Party is any better?
The last 8 years prove absolutely without doubt that they are.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
I am almost tempted to vote for Biden just for the laughs. (Not really.) He is a walking gaffe machine. Not only was he slamming his own campaign's television ad, but he was also rewriting history. "When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the princes of greed," Biden told Couric. "He said, 'Look, here's what happened.'"
Read the short piece here. It's funny.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
crack pot outfits like Planned Parenthood
Are you kidding me? Seriously? This was the only place I could get a pap smear and birth control when I was uninsured. They offer extremely valuable services and are anything but a crackpot outfit. Repeat this smear and I'll be happy to take this to Hell.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
The thing about oil is, weather or not there's a shortage of it now, it is a non-renewable resource. In other words, eventually it WILL run out. Next year or a hundred years from now, it will all be gone. Bye-bye oil.
Now, I don't know about anyone else here, but I have a child, and I hope very much to someday have grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and so on down the line. And I care about what happens to those hypothetical future children.
And even if there's oil enough for my lifetime, which I think there is, and the oil companies are simply creating false shortages, which I'm sure they are, some day THERE WON'T BE, and the shortages will be real. And my descendants will be stuck. Because there will come a time when there's no more to be drilled anywhere.
Surely it makes sense to deal with a non-renewable resource like a non-renewable resource? Find alternateves NOW, while we have the time to do the research? Not wait til we're boxed into a corner? And ration what we have so that it lasts longer?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Then you go to your Fourteenth Amendment, which presents no difficulty at all: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside"
Any other knotty constitutional problems?
You emphasized the wrong part of the amendment. It has to do with where one was born to be a citizen.
There has been theoretical argument about someone born outside the territorial limits of the US to US citizen parents temporarily outside the country (like military duty) and ability to be president. The usual solution is usually stated as being born under the US flag (US military base, US flag vessel, US embassy) doesn't hinder one from becoming president, as it is US controlled territory.
I suspect that some of the tin foil hat brigade's rants about Obama's foreign birth certificates (note plural) and alleged birth outside the US has more to do with blunting the arguments about McCain's qualifications than questioning Obama's qualifications. That is, if Obama is "cleared" to run (scare quotes intentional), there can't be any question about McCain.
(Of course, Obama holds a US passport. His place of birth should clearly be listed there. Just because two other countries have [allegedly] issued birth certificates to him because of his non-citizen father has nothing to do with whether Obama is a natural born citizen.)
Just remember that I attributed this to the tin foil hat brigade. As a person that dabbles in politics, I get to deal with this occasionally. Just don't be surprised if there is a court challenge (which will be dismissed quickly) as to the "natural born citizen" requirement no matter who wins.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
The thing about oil is, weather or not there's a shortage of it now, it is a non-renewable resource. In other words, eventually it WILL run out.
The answer is clear -- we need to bring back the dinosaurs and start sqishing them into oil. There's a simple solution to everything. You just need to be simple enough to find it...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
It could care less about Mr. Average American. All it wants to do is to lump everyone into various ethnic, gender, sexual identity group and pander to their fears.
Says the person whose party has been relying on fear-mongering for the past eight years and is currently playing identity politics to the hilt.
Look, I'll take responsibility for the whole identity politics thing. I knew it had gotten out of control in the nineties (and so did a whole lot of other people) and we didn't put a stop to it, and the Republicans learned it by watching us.
But it's really time to knock it off.
quote:
I am almost tempted to vote for Biden just for the laughs. (Not really.)
Oh, come on. Do it. You know you want to. Just for shits and giggles.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
And the Demccratic Party is any better? It could care less about Mr. Average American. All it wants to do is to lump everyone into various ethnic, gender, sexual identity group and pander to their fears.
One could come to the conclusion from your statement (made above and below this point in your post) that you exclude anyone being an average American who is involved with with labor, in a racial group other than caucasian, has a gender other than male, or has sexual orientation other than heterosexual.
If such an interpretation of your statement is wrong, could you please explain how seeking a representative sample of the general population in those making decisions for your party is somehow wrong.
quote:
The GOP may have strong influence from corporations, but what about the Democrats with their labor unions, their teachers unions, their crack pot outfits like Planned Parenthood. Please. Talk about not caring about America.
Has it ever occured to you to consider who lives in America and makes it work? Who is going to pay the taxes for the Bush deficit?
quote:
And most of the donations from the now bankrupt Freddie, Fannie, Lehman, etc went to Democrats. Sorry.
Did you mean the leadership from these companies?
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:
And most of the donations from the now bankrupt Freddie, Fannie, Lehman, etc went to Democrats. Sorry.
Did you mean the leadership from these companies?
I suspect he's referring to the McCain ad and talking point that Obama has gotten the second most contributions from people who work at Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. That is true. OTOH, McCain has gotten vastly more money from the members of the board of directors and the lobbyists for the two FMs.
So, Obama is the choice of the average working stiff at each organization and McCain is the choice of the people who ran them into the ground. Who but a Republican could turn that into an attack ad against Obama?
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Dead candidates in the UK.
(Apologies for the tangent to those in the US who may continue to vote for dead people according to their own laws and customs.)
Just one anecdote that should throw light on the the problem that US voters face on this issue. When she was told that Calvin Coolidge had just died, Dorothy Parker is reputed to have responded, "How can they tell?"
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
It could care less about Mr. Average American. All it wants to do is to lump everyone into various ethnic, gender, sexual identity group and pander to their fears.
Says the person whose party has been relying on fear-mongering for the past eight years and is currently playing identity politics to the hilt.
Longer than that. Remember the Willy Horton ad in 1988.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
It goes back to Nixon's 'Southern strategy' at least.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Yeah, I suppose that they have been trying to make us afraid of other people for quite some time.
But it's only within the last eight years that I've felt like the Republicans themselves were threatening the people directly.
I freakin hate being this afraid of the government.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
One could come to the conclusion from your statement (made above and below this point in your post) that you exclude anyone being an average American who is involved with with labor, in a racial group other than caucasian, has a gender other than male, or has sexual orientation other than heterosexual.
On the contrary. Average Americans are all of those as individuals not necessarily as part of a group.
quote:
If such an interpretation of your statement is wrong, could you please explain how seeking a representative sample of the general population in those making decisions for your party is somehow wrong.
How does this follow?
quote:
Has it ever occured to you to consider who lives in America and makes it work? Who is going to pay the taxes for the Bush deficit?
Yes. The middle and upper classes. The lower classes pay little income tax.
quote:
Says the person whose party has been relying on fear-mongering for the past eight years and is currently playing identity politics to the hilt.
Hmm. Scaring old folks about Social Security. Hinting that civil rights would be rolled back? Saying "do you want to bring back slavery?"
quote:
Jesus was a community organizer. ...
Jesus said "suffer the little children and let them come to me." Obama ... well........
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Civil rights HAVE been rolled back. Wiretapping without warrant? Held at Guantanamo without trial? Hello?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156
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Posted
No Mousethief-you see the republican administration would only use those powers against nasty people like terrorists, muslims and democrats. It's not really civil rights infringement if they're not people, duh. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Zorro.
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It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep
Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
... They actually elected a dead candidate to the Senate in Missouri a few years back.
Iirc, his wife was sworn in. An interesting theory in itself...
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
One could come to the conclusion from your statement (made above and below this point in your post) that you exclude anyone being an average American who is involved with with labor, in a racial group other than caucasian, has a gender other than male, or has sexual orientation other than heterosexual.
On the contrary. Average Americans are all of those as individuals not necessarily as part of a group.
United we stand. Divided we fall.
I believe this is about the synergy that comes form people coming together rather than trying to do it seperately.
Why, the idea is even Christian: "Forsake not the assembly of the saints..."
When you stop to remember that only about one-third of the colonists even wanted a revolution back in the 1770s—and one-third was loyal to the crown—there seems to be some advantage in joining with others.
You seem to think it is about fear mongering on the parts of the Democrats. No, it isn't.
Fear comes with what I think might happen when a drunk starts openly talking about my sexual orientation in a biker bar when you are having a drink. (He wasn't trying to start a fight. Just saying how some of his best friends are gay.) Fortunately the others in the bar knew me well enough to know to ignore the bore.
Fear comes when a woman is being abused and doesn't believe she is worthy enough to seek help.
Fear comes when you are working long hours, but you still aren't earning enough to pay the rent and buy shoes and food for you kid.
Fear comes when you have a progressive, dibilitating disease, and you don't know how you are going to survive without help.
It appears to be alright, from your point of view, if you are a person of color, gay, female, or a trade unionist—but as long as you don't tell anyone. Haven't you heard that "don't ask, don't tell" doesn't work? You will still live in fear, and it isn't fear that comes from the Democratic Party. Divided, every one of us will fall.
When Jesus said to require (suffer) the children to come him, and not to forbid them, it was all about the Kingdom of Heaven. United, we all stand.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HenryT:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
... They actually elected a dead candidate to the Senate in Missouri a few years back.
Iirc, his wife was sworn in. An interesting theory in itself...
That is a typical action in the US when a senator dies in office. Sometimes the spouse serves only until the election to fill the vacancy; sometimes she runs for the seat in her own right.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
Acknowledging a need for a fix this caught my eye
quote:
In light of the recent spate of bad national headlines for Biden, some within the party's professional class are wondering whether the equation involved in picking Biden is starting to not add up.
I stumbled onto this article by googling news for Biden and it struck me he has been getting some bad press lately: makes you wonder if Hillary is lurking in the background manipulating the vast right wing conspiracy. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
And God help us
quote:
Hannity: What is our role as a country as it relates to national security?
Palin: Yes. That's a great question, and being an optimist I see our role in the world as one of being a force for good, and one of being the leader of the world when it comes to the values that -- it seems that just human kind embraces the values that -- encompass life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that's just -- not just in America, that is in our world.
And America is in a position because we care for so many people to be able to lead and to be able to have a strong diplomacy and a strong military also at the same time to defend not only our freedoms, but to help these rising smaller democratic countries that are just -- you know, they're putting themselves on the map right now, and they're going to be looking to America as that leader.
We being used as a force for good is how I see our country.
Can't any of these candidates aspire to not being a force for bad?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Civil rights HAVE been rolled back. Wiretapping without warrant? Held at Guantanamo without trial? Hello?
Sigh.
So far it seems to have worked. No major attack since 9/11.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Bede -
Banding together in groups to accomplish a goal is one thing. Believing that everyone in a certain group should think and vote one way - just because they are a member of that group - is another.
And, Jesus said let the children come to me. Obama says I will not punish young people with a baby. Big difference.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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TheEzrahite17
Apprentice
# 10609
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Civil rights HAVE been rolled back. Wiretapping without warrant? Held at Guantanamo without trial? Hello?
Sigh.
So far it seems to have worked. No major attack since 9/11.
Sigh.
Our defense of our way of life has failed. We now have fewer rights.
Posts: 35 | From: MA, USA | Registered: Oct 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
And, Jesus said let the children come to me. Obama says I will not punish young people with a baby. Big difference.
Well, if Jesus is running against Obama for POTUS, I'm willing to vote for Him. But I don't think, despite the unflagging efforts of the right to brand Christ as a Republican, that Christ is on the ballot this year...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Civil rights HAVE been rolled back. Wiretapping without warrant? Held at Guantanamo without trial? Hello?
Sigh.
So far it seems to have worked. No major attack since 9/11.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Can I interest you in this can of Shark Repellent?
Really, what better way for Al Qaeda to win?
Al Qaeda, to self: The USA is too open a society. All those people living free lives, with rights and stuff. How can we make their society more of a closed society with fewer rights and stuff? More fear, more wiretapping, fewer of those blasted "civil rights" that we so despise? Hmmm.
Hey guess what, folks? Whatever they did, IT WORKED. And WE declare victory? ho, boy.
New Yorker: YOU claimed the Dems were fear-mongering by claiming civil rights would be curtailed. Now you all but admit they are being curtailed, but well, at least all of our other buildings are still standing. You can't have it both ways. Are they being curtailed, or not? If they are, then the Dems were right, and you should have the grace to admit it, and eat your words about scaremongering. I suppose an apology is out of your league.
[ 24. September 2008, 14:45: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
New Yorker: YOU claimed the Dems were fear-mongering by claiming civil rights would be curtailed. Now you all but admit they are being curtailed, but well, at least all of our other buildings are still standing. You can't have it both ways. Are they being curtailed, or not? If they are, then the Dems were right, and you should have the grace to admit it, and eat your words about scaremongering. I suppose an apology is out of your league.
Mousethief, please, I don't admit that civil rights have been curtailed. Everyone still has the right to vote, etc. All that has happened is that the feds listen in on conversations of bad people. What's wrong with that? And, we hold enemy combatants in Cuba? What's wrong with that? Should we have read all the German and Japanese prisoners their Miranda rights and then let them go?
I agree that this is not the ideal situation, but we do what we have to do.
Tom, I certainly don't think that Jesus is a Republican nor do I think he's a Democrat. Neither party is completely aligned with His views. Well, maybe the Alaskan Independence Party? Oops!
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Ah, unless ALL civil rights are curtailed, then none are? So we've given up that old "innocent until proven guilty" thing, have we? Dang, that seems to me a pretty important one. If there's enough reason to think someone is a bad guy, then it shouldn't be too hard to scare up a warrant to tap their phone. If you tap without a warrant, how do you know they're a bad guy? That's called curtailment of civil rights. Unless there's a trial, how do you know a person is guilty? If you keep them in jail indefinitely without a trial or even a charge, how do you know they're guilty? That's called a curtailment of civil rights. Saying "well they're a bad guy so it's okay" doesn't make it okay, and doesn't make them a bad guy. It's up to a court of law to determine if they're a bad guy. Not you. Not the police. Not the department of homeland security. THAT is curtailment of civil rights.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Amen! Preach it, brother mousethief.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Mousethief: ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Interestingly, today a friend of mine (who technically is a shipmate, though he hasn't posted in quite a few years) e-mailed me that his house was searched the other day by the FBI, and two computers and some data disks were impounded, and his housemate interogated for several hours because she "may have taken some photos at a demonstration that got out of hand earlier this year". I don't know any more details than this, but I'll see if I can convince him to drop by and explain further. Cause it sounded pretty creepy from what he said.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
All that has happened is that the feds listen in on conversations of bad people. What's wrong with that?
What's wrong? It doesn't comply with this:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
And, we hold enemy combatants in Cuba? What's wrong with that?
It doesn't comply with this:
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...
Or this:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
That's what's wrong.
And what Mousethief said.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
The Fourth Amendment was already in horrible trouble when this administration took office -- a down-on-its-luck Amendment suffering from major depressive disorder on the brink of becoming homeless. The current administration got it addicted to crack and, it can now be found homeless somewhere on the less savory stretch of 14th Street, turning tricks for 20 dollars, some rock or even just a cold Coors tallboy.
I'm hoping the new Obama administration will get it into rehab.
[ 24. September 2008, 16:36: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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