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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
Choirboy
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
[QUOTE]Well he's got a nice young thing to balance out his oldness. Their combined ages divided in half make a good average age for prez.

Yes. So perhaps they should live in Alaska in the winter and Arizona in the summer and be happy with the average.
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comet

Snowball in Hell
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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
Is the Palin thing that great a step? Apart from anything else, she's not the first, and she seems only to have been chosen as an almost trophy VP figure rather than any ability-political or otherwise, that she's displayed. Maybe I'm wrong about that but it's all I've been able to think since she was nominated.

Zorro - go back a few (dozen...?) pages of this thread to when Sarah was nominated. I wrote at length about her tenure as Governor here and before it. despite all of the big publicity and spin since, she was a good Gov that had nothing to do with her looks or cute turn of phrase.

I cannot read McCain's mind (nor would I want to!) but there was plenty of material there to recommend her for a "reform" conservative ticket that was not even resembling "trophy".

as I've said before, I'm not pleased with how she has sold herself down the river and allowed the GOP to "handle" her. I'm pretty pissed off, actually. as are just about every other Alaskan I know. But she was a good gov and a popular gov on both sides of the spectrum. and especially with us in the middle.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

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the gnome
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(The Puritans in New England never burned any witches. They hanged them.)
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the gnome
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(Not that that makes it so very much better. And of course, we should probably be putting "witches" in quotation marks...)
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Zorro - go back a few (dozen...?) pages of this thread to when Sarah was nominated. I wrote at length about her tenure as Governor here and before it. despite all of the big publicity and spin since, she was a good Gov that had nothing to do with her looks or cute turn of phrase.

I cannot read McCain's mind (nor would I want to!) but there was plenty of material there to recommend her for a "reform" conservative ticket that was not even resembling "trophy".

as I've said before, I'm not pleased with how she has sold herself down the river and allowed the GOP to "handle" her. I'm pretty pissed off, actually. as are just about every other Alaskan I know. But she was a good gov and a popular gov on both sides of the spectrum. and especially with us in the middle.

However good and popular a governor she is, she has no business being on the national stage at this point. She's memorized a lot of talking points, but she has not immersed herself in national domestic policy or foreign policy, so nothing there is more than an inch deep with her. That's not to say that she wouldn't be a good Republican candidate sometime in the future, but she's completely unprepared right now.

That she has no problem telling outright hateful lies about Obama, lies that could incite violence against him, is a character issue that in my mind will not go away no matter how much she studies up.

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IconiumBound
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When are the Democrats going to wise up to the McCain strategy of throwing out various sideshow points (eg; Ayers, muslims, Palin) so as to divert attention from real issues, particularly the economy which is a loser for McCain.

Can't Obama or someone say something like "Are you going to play around with these kind of dicersions or are you going to stick to the real issues?"

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Orb

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I guess people have made predictions earlier in the thread, but any more now that we're less than a month away?

At the moment, Obama looks like getting about 345 electoral college votes. Bill Clinton got 370 in his first term and 379 in his second.

Could Obama get close to Clinton's numbers? Or is the context so completely different that there's no "Clinton versus Obama" tussle to be had?

An interesting historical video is here . How many times does Bill Clinton mention "change" in his opening gambit?

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
They are trying to get back to the good old days.

Burning witches or trickle-down economics?
They were sometimes the same thing in Europe, AIUI. Accusers, judges, etc. got to split up the "witch's" property.
[Frown]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Zorro
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Comet said
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Zorro:
Is the Palin thing that great a step? Apart from anything else, she's not the first, and she seems only to have been chosen as an almost trophy VP figure rather than any ability-political or otherwise, that she's displayed. Maybe I'm wrong about that but it's all I've been able to think since she was nominated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zorro - go back a few (dozen...?) pages of this thread to when Sarah was nominated. I wrote at length about her tenure as Governor here and before it. despite all of the big publicity and spin since, she was a good Gov that had nothing to do with her looks or cute turn of phrase.

I cannot read McCain's mind (nor would I want to!) but there was plenty of material there to recommend her for a "reform" conservative ticket that was not even resembling "trophy".

as I've said before, I'm not pleased with how she has sold herself down the river and allowed the GOP to "handle" her. I'm pretty pissed off, actually. as are just about every other Alaskan I know. But she was a good gov and a popular gov on both sides of the spectrum. and especially with us in the middle.

I take on board what you said Comet, but in all honesty I've not heard many positive reports of her in office-that being the case someone living in her state would be more than worth listening to about it.


Interesting what you say about her being a reformer ticket-during the Primaries McCain seemed quite a reformative figure as well, with many interesting and progressive things to say which I listened to and thought "This guy or Obama? Great choice to have." Maybe I was misinformed, but the similarities between him and Palin struck me from your speech-I wonder then what she'd actually be like in power.


Also, I'd openly admit that the only bits we tend to hear about her are moose hunting, rape kits and PTA stuff. Weirdly though, the UK seems far less into politicans who are "down with it," where the US seems to go much more for people who are in touch. We whine and moan about our PMs etc but when push comes to shove you'd be hard pushed to get elected if you didn't have at least a good education.


If I've jumped the gun on Palin I apologise, I'll go do some more research.


Zorro.

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It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep

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comet

Snowball in Hell
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you're fine, Zorro. I was just trying to give some background, on why McCain might have chosen her to begin with. I am not for an instant saying she'd be good in Washington, I have no idea and I frankly doubt it. Nor am I defending the inflammatory things she has said - I'm appalled.

All I have ever wanted to do on this thread was give some perspective where Palin is concerned.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
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quote:
Originally posted by the gnome:
(The Puritans in New England never burned any witches. They hanged them.)

and pressed to death one man for refusing to testify.

Waterboarding hadn't been invented yet...

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
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Comet, what do you think of Salon's report on Palin's AIP connections?

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duchess

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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
you're fine, Zorro. I was just trying to give some background, on why McCain might have chosen her to begin with. I am not for an instant saying she'd be good in Washington, I have no idea and I frankly doubt it. Nor am I defending the inflammatory things she has said - I'm appalled.

All I have ever wanted to do on this thread was give some perspective where Palin is concerned.

Which is one of the reasons I come back to SoF time and time again. People like you who try to present another side even if ticked off with a candidate. Props to the Redheaded Comet.
[Overused]

[ 10. October 2008, 03:27: Message edited by: duchess ]

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
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quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
I guess people have made predictions earlier in the thread, but any more now that we're less than a month away?.

It's 25 days, which is still a very long time politically, even if early voting has already started in some states.

On October 9, 2004, Kerry looked to be ahead. Check Electoral-Vote.com.

I will say that if Obama wins, there will likely be a shitstorm in Alaska when Palin gets back to work.
quote:
At the moment, Obama looks like getting about 345 electoral college votes. Bill Clinton got 370 in his first term and 379 in his second.

Could Obama get close to Clinton's numbers? Or is the context so completely different that there's no "Clinton versus Obama" tussle to be had?

It's different enough. There's no Perot equivalent in this race. Clinton won in 1992 with only a plurality of the popular vote, although his electoral margin was substantial.

There's about a hundred EVs in this election that at this point look like they could break either way, similarly to this point in '04. But I will say that I am boggled that North Carolina and especially Indiana are among that number. NC went for Carter in '76 but Indiana hasn't voted Dem since LBJ.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Campbellite

Ut unum sint
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quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Indiana hasn't voted Dem since LBJ.

Charlotte

Neither has Virginia, but that looks like a real possibility this time around. [Votive]

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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?

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Orb

Eye eye Cap'n!
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quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
But I will say that I am boggled that North Carolina and especially Indiana are among that number. NC went for Carter in '76 but Indiana hasn't voted Dem since LBJ.

Yeah! I was shocked when I saw that the other day as well. I thought Indiana was redder than red.

Would you not say that Obama is in a stronger position now than Kerry was then?

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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tclune
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One aspect of the race that has started to get the attention that it deserves is the brown-shirt tactics of the Republicans. I was glad to see Obama challenge McCain during the debate on his OTT rhetoric, like "bomb, bomb Iran" (said while he was on-stage, not privately with an old war buddy like he averred).

I saw Michelle Obama talk on Larry King and The Daily Show, and was blown away by her decency and refusal to personalize the race with McCain.

I was glad to see David Gergen (a former Republican political operative) insist that it was Palin's duty to challenge those people who are flooding to her rallies and yell out "kill him" or "terrorist" when Obama's name is mentioned, and to take responsibility for her own warm-up speakers who inflame the bile of the crowd.

I saw conservative columnist Kathleen Parker (who has called for Palin to step down) and the daughter of Leverett Saltenstall on CNN also insisting that the Republican hate machine has gone too far and needs to be challenged by the party leadership.

Is this issue likely to get traction? Have the responsible people in the Republican leadership finally had enough of the hate-mongering of the talk radio crowd? Is this the dawn of a new day for American democracy, where decency and civility are going to be valued above unfounded anger and political hate speech? Or am I just a starry-eyed optimist?

--Tom Clune

[ 10. October 2008, 12:36: Message edited by: tclune ]

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
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tclune: There may be hope. The BBC is currently airing a new TV series on just that, named 'The American Future: A History', with historian Simon Schama.

The article is rather thought-provoking I find.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Izzybee
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I saw conservative columnist Kathleen Parker (who has called for Palin to step down) and the daughter of Leverett Saltenstall on CNN also insisting that the Republican hate machine has gone too far and needs to be challenged by the party leadership.

Is this issue likely to get traction? Have the responsible people in the Republican leadership finally had enough of the hate-mongering of the talk radio crowd? Is this the dawn of a new day for American democracy, where decency and civility are going to be valued above unfounded anger and political hate speech? Or am I just a starry-eyed optimist?

--Tom Clune

Sure - right after the election. I think the Republican Party are aware that inciting insane people will be the only way to win votes - I'm thinking (unfortunately) of many people I know, most of whom I used to work with. The same people who are sure the Obama is a Muslim and think that hate filled talk radio is a diverting way to pass time, and think nothing of passing their lunch break at a company wide pizza "party" making racist jokes and talking about how McCain isn't conservative enough for them, but at least he's not "one of them" (and now you have a good insight as to why I don't work there anymore). I have a Brother-In-Law who still thinks that Bush is the best thing to happen to this country, ever. The only way to mobilize those people is to play on their sense of hatred, so the negative stuff will keep on coming.

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Hate filled bitch musings...

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
When are the Democrats going to wise up to the McCain strategy of throwing out various sideshow points [...] so as to divert attention from real issues, particularly the economy...

I think they have known that since at least the 1960s. It isn't the Democrats you need to persuade to talk about issues, its the editors of newspapers and TV & radio shows.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
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quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
But I will say that I am boggled that North Carolina and especially Indiana are among that number. NC went for Carter in '76 but Indiana hasn't voted Dem since LBJ.

Yeah! I was shocked when I saw that the other day as well. I thought Indiana was redder than red.

Would you not say that Obama is in a stronger position now than Kerry was then?

I think so. Fewer states are in play* and the support just feels solider to me. I live in a "true blue" district so we don't get actual campaigning out here (just fundraising, LOL) but people's "hearts and minds" seem to be more with the program.

The organization is pretty impressive as well so the butts and boots in motion are also with the program.

Virginia being in play was not a total surprise because I know that there's sort of an upstate/downstate split and the last statewide elections there have trended Dem, but I was not aware that the upstate/downstate split in Indiana was strong enough to throw it in play. (Similarly with NC although it might be more an urban/rural split.)

* I stayed up past my bedtime last night changing the map on 270 To Win. I commend it to your attention.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
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comet

Snowball in Hell
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Comet, what do you think of Salon's report on Palin's AIP connections?

it's so hard to know what to say.

the AIP is like that crazy uncle that you see every christmas and easter. he sits in the corner, drinks too much, and occasionally makes pronouncements that are just loony. he will grab anyone who comes too close and tell them all the latest conspiracy theories.

He's so embarrassing but he's family, you know? and harmless.

The AIP will never be mainstream enough to make succession a real strategy.

Joe Vogler believed in killing all alders. (a type of tree) he believed alders were "anti-development". I really, really wish I was kidding.

As for the guy in the story and the AIP's "family values" platform, that's new to me. it was all about government excess and the freedom to have as many wives or husbands or both as you liked on your own land, right next to your pot farm and still.

bless their little wooly hearts.

So, Sarah hung out with the nutty uncle for awhile. shows a lack of good discernment on her part, but then, so does her current political affiliation in my opinion.

and who knows, if there's a family connection that just muddies it up that much more. She's from here, born and bred, which means she could be "affiliated" will all sorts of lunacy. I am. it's one big dysfunctional family up here.

The Salon article is interesting, but to me it doesn't say much. a yahoo wants to take credit for Sarah's rise to fame. her birth coach is part of a right wing group (that's hardly surprising).

thing is, the "libertarian" mindset is strong here, very strong. the AIP fall somewhat into that camp. so do the traditional republicans. Sarah now is supporting the same-ol-same-ol big government in everyone's beeswax mentality if the current GOP down there.

She's no AIP loyalist.

a former territorial gov is quoted as saying in Alaska, we all can "go to hell in our own way." that's a concept the AIP types have always strongly believed in. Roe V. Wade, for example, is the exact opposite of that world view.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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Woo Hoo! Sleaze-gerl gets caught out!

Panel: Palin abused power in trooper case

quote:
However, it states that her efforts to get Wooten fired broke a state ethics law that bars public officials from pursuing personal interest through official action.


[Big Grin]

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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I'm very frightened at the hatred she stirs up at her stump rallies. At the risk of invoking Godwin, a certain soccer stadium in Nürnberg keeps wandering into my mind. Dark times, my friends. Dark times.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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RooK

1 of 6
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Woo Hoo! Sleaze-gerl gets caught out!

Bah. It appears that the core of the report says that the firing was within her discretion. The part where it attributes that action as an abuse of power seems to have no real force, and can easily be dismissed (by those who might want to dismiss it) as being politically-motivated commentary.

Unless this leads to an actionable finding against Palin, I fear it is just going to be another polarizing element. Fucking politics.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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In other News of the Absurd, Faux News is all up in arms because Newsweek Rag didn't airbrush age lines out of Palin's face in a recent cover! [Killing me]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Orb

Eye eye Cap'n!
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quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
* I stayed up past my bedtime last night changing the map on 270 To Win. I commend it to your attention.

No sweat. Already an addict... [Cool]

I would recommend in return checking Justin Webb's America blog on the BBC website as well. He's got a pretty rounded way of commenting on the election stuff.

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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Choirboy
Shipmate
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Barring another major news event such as the financial collapse (I'm thinking here a terrorist attack within the U.S. or a major terrorist attack elsewhere in the world), an Obama win is essentially a given and the only questions are how big the margin will be, and what impact he will have on senate races. Especially since the financial problems are lingering even after passage of the bailout here in the states.

That we are arguing over whether McCain will take Virginia, North Carolina or Indiana instead of whether Obama will take Michigan and Pennsylvania pretty much ensures the outcome.

[ 11. October 2008, 07:21: Message edited by: Choirboy ]

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Woo Hoo! Sleaze-gerl gets caught out!

Bah. It appears that the core of the report says that the firing was within her discretion. The part where it attributes that action as an abuse of power seems to have no real force, and can easily be dismissed (by those who might want to dismiss it) as being politically-motivated commentary.

Unless this leads to an actionable finding against Palin, I fear it is just going to be another polarizing element. Fucking politics.

I'm puzzled. This report seems to be a fine piece of double speak and the BBC's summary states
" REPORT'S FINDINGS
Sarah Palin abused her power
Monegan's refusal to fire Wooten was not sole reason for his dismissal, but a contributing factor
Sarah Palin's acted within her rights as Governor of Alaska"

adding the quote from the chair of the commitee:

"I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110 (a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act,"

Forgive me, but how do you act within your rights as governor and also abuse your power? Either
  • I'm dumber than I think I am (and I really don't think I'm that smart)
  • The Beeb's journo's can't read for comprehension (so they should spend some time aboard the SoF where they will be put straight)
  • The report is so convoluted that, at this time, it has been put together so as to make any interpretation possible.

Maybe a bit all three, but mostly #3 IMO. Any other candidate would resign by Monday but Sarah Palin ain't like that.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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Seems clear to me. An unethical act but not an illegal one. Damaging to Gov Palin because of her stance on various issues of personal morality.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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like premarital sex?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Seems clear to me. An unethical act but not an illegal one. Damaging to Gov Palin because of her stance on various issues of personal morality.

Not merely unethical acts, but according to the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act, abusive unethical acts? I know, from what comet has said, that things are different Way Up North but are they that different?

Can I add to my list of "reasons"
  • The Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act is a work of deliberate obfuscation
  • That committee was told what to say and would you believe, did just that (helped by the above Act)


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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
[QB... an Obama win is essentially a given and the only questions are how big the margin will be,[/QB]

I am a raddled old hack, and I have heard people say things like that far, far, too often, at every level from general elections down to the committee of a social club.

And I have never met a candidate who deep down in side didn't sincerely believe they could win an election, however hopeless it seemed. And I have never met a candidate who deep down in side didn't simultaneously sincerely believe they could lose, however certain it seemed. I think they need both sorts of delusion to get them out of bed in the morning. Campaigning for election is hard work.

Its not over till the fat lady sings.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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Pretty much. Still over three weeks and there's a lot of room for motion.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067

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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
...an Obama win is essentially a given ...

Didn't Aesop have enough fables about counting chickens prior to hatching?

The win will be a given when the votes are counted and not a second before.

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Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156

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John McCain is trying to go back on himself. No, seriously, I thought this was a joke too but he's for real. What's more concerning is the reactions of the crowd and the questioners themselves.


Zorro.

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It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep

Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
John McCain is trying to go back on himself. No, seriously, I thought this was a joke too but he's for real. What's more concerning is the reactions of the crowd and the questioners themselves.


Zorro.

McCain looks a reasonable, rational man, but that seems to be the last thing some of McCain's supporters want in the White House. What a change that would be.

Interesting that McCain's apparent protection of Obama comes when he speaks off-the-cuff whereas the rabid stuff is the prepared material.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156

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Tbh I've long suspected John McCain is an unwilling puppet for some Rovian team of backroomers. What I find hard to swallow is him allowing himself to be used like that-kinda makes all his maverick, reformation rhetoric seem like bullshit.


Zorro.

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It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep

Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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McCain may look a reasonable, rational man, but he also authorized hate and sleaze campaigning in his name over the last week. Just who is John McCain? The reasonable and rational man, or the sleazeball hatemonger? If John McCain gets elected, which one takes up residency in White House?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
wombat
Shipmate
# 5180

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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
Tbh I've long suspected John McCain is an unwilling puppet for some Rovian team of backroomers. What I find hard to swallow is him allowing himself to be used like that-kinda makes all his maverick, reformation rhetoric seem like bullshit.


Zorro.

McCain is a WILLING puppet for a group of Rove disciples. His campaign manager, Steve Schmidt, worked for Bush in 2000 and helped to orchestrate the slime campaign in South Carolina that wrecked his run for the Republican nomination.

I wouldn't say McCain's entirely happy about the slime tactics his campaign is now using, but it's become blatantly obvious over the last 4 years that McCain will do anything whatsoever to become President. He's basically tossed dozens of positions into the garbage and replaced them with whatever he has to say in order to get the Republican nomination and win. He is the Pandering King now and any fine qualities he might once have had are gone.

The simple fact of the manner is that if McCain didn't want the tactics he's using, there's nothing stopping him from firing Schmidt, hiring someone else and changing gears. But he's desperate and he's relying on the tactic the Republicans have consistently used the last thirty years--SLIME SLIME SLIME RACISM SLIME.

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John Walter Biles
Historian in Training

Posts: 363 | From: Maryland | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If John McCain gets elected, which one takes up residency in White House?

exactly my thoughts about him and Sarah, also. if they are so willing to sell their "reformer" status to the GOP handlers for an election win, who will they sell their power to once they get into office? who will they owe all of their favors to?

if I'm lucky, not only will they lose in november, but Sarah will be forced to resign from Juneau, too. fat chance, that. This whole mess just turns my stomach.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
The win will be a given when the votes are counted and not a second before.

You really are an optimist.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335

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well, if Buckley's son is voting Obama, things are pretty much over


http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-10/the-conservative-case-for-obama

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
an Obama win is essentially a given and the only questions are how big the margin will be,

I wish that I could be so complacent, but these are days in which the usual rules don't apply.

First, the country has never been asked to vote a black man into the White House before. PC has more and more shamed us out of overtly racist acts or language, but the ballot booth is a private place. The Jewish vote, for instance, has usually gone heavily Democratic. This time it's still up in the air. As with most groups, the young are more enthusiastic about Obama than the old. A local newspaper has an article about a program called "The Great Schlep", sponsored by someone on Facebook, encouraging young Jews to talk to their grandparents about how important an Obama victory is to them and to the country.

Secondly, with the mind-numbing level of governmental bailouts and buyouts we've seen recently, it looks as though Uncle Sam has put on his Santa Claus suit. Hence all manner of pie-in-the-sky promises of relief, if made, will be believed, which two months ago would have been laughed offstage as absurd. Haven't the last few days seen a shrinkage of Obama's lead attributable to the fact that McCain is outpromising him? Get $500 a month lopped off your outsized mortgage payment, courtesy of Washington? Sounds great, let's vote McCain and go for it. Amazing how everyone's suddenly a socialist.

I see no way for the federal government to fulfill such a promise in addition to the gigantic commitments already made, other than maybe printing money. Morris Berman's warning comes to mind about its inexorably becoming increasingly bloated and dysfunctional. Buy gold.

It is the mark of a mature, honest person not to promise more than he can deliver. But that's why the mature, honest candidate doesn't always get elected.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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There's an email making the rounds among the conservative religious types (don't ask why I got it) in which a pastor recounts how God engineered a highly unlikely meeting with Palin so that the pastor could tell her that she's a present day Esther. The entire story is bugshit crazy, as far as I'm concerned, but I've been puzzling over exactly how the Esther parallel is supposed to work.

Esther and Palin are both won beauty competitions and rose quickly and unexpectedly to positions of high power. Okay, but now what?

Esther slept with the king and won protection from an evil plot against her minority religion. Is McCain supposed to be the king? Won't Cindy McCain object, or will she be sent away like Vashti? Who is Haman? It feels like it should be Karl Rove, but I don't see him doing anything to harm far-right pentecostals. Perhaps most disturbingly, who is the shadowy Mordecai?

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Comet, what do you think of Salon's report on Palin's AIP connections?

it's so hard to know what to say.

the AIP is like that crazy uncle that you see every christmas and easter. he sits in the corner, drinks too much, and occasionally makes pronouncements that are just loony. he will grab anyone who comes too close and tell them all the latest conspiracy theories.

He's so embarrassing but he's family, you know? and harmless.

Be that as it may ... it's one of those "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" thing.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
The win will be a given when the votes are counted and not a second before.

You really are an optimist.
Too true. (Should we natter on about the Electoral College for extra kicks and grins?)

The only amusement I got out of election night 2000 was hearing East Coast Establishment Meeja types flail because it wasn't all neat and tidy by their bedtime. I considered myself finally paid back for 1980.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
The win will be a given when the votes are counted and not a second before.

You really are an optimist.
I think that you'll find that he's a pessimist! He'd rather Obama won but thinks sufficient Americans won't vote for a black man that he can't win!

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And I have never met a candidate who deep down in side didn't sincerely believe they could win an election, however hopeless it seemed. And I have never met a candidate who deep down in side didn't simultaneously sincerely believe they could lose, however certain it seemed. I think they need both sorts of delusion to get them out of bed in the morning. Campaigning for election is hard work.

You obviously haven't met any paper candidates!

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
The win will be a given when the votes are counted and not a second before.

They count them now? I thought they just sunk the ballot boxes in the Everglades.

(I believe the US was the victim of a coup about 8 years ago. And juntas do not easily relinquish power.)

Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jack the Lass

Ship's airhead
# 3415

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
There's an email making the rounds among the conservative religious types (don't ask why I got it) in which a pastor recounts how God engineered a highly unlikely meeting with Palin so that the pastor could tell her that she's a present day Esther. The entire story is bugshit crazy, as far as I'm concerned, but I've been puzzling over exactly how the Esther parallel is supposed to work.

Esther and Palin are both won beauty competitions and rose quickly and unexpectedly to positions of high power. Okay, but now what?

Esther slept with the king and won protection from an evil plot against her minority religion. Is McCain supposed to be the king? Won't Cindy McCain object, or will she be sent away like Vashti? Who is Haman? It feels like it should be Karl Rove, but I don't see him doing anything to harm far-right pentecostals. Perhaps most disturbingly, who is the shadowy Mordecai?

This doesn't surprise me at all. I read a loopy random blog the other week (and am now wishing I'd bookmarked it) all about the obvious Palin/Esther parallels - which may well have been inspired by the same email, though the blogger started thinking about it and assigning all sorts of wider roles. IIRC, McCain was Mordecai, Hillary Clinton was Vashti (removed from the spotlight so that a new queen could take centre stage - not Obama but Palin), Obama was the evil Haman, and the American electorate were the Jewish population. What scared me was the utter straight-faced seriousness of it all - this blogger really believed she was onto something.

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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog

Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged



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