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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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I saw the entire Al Smith Dinner roast and my respect for McCain was (surprisingly) restored. Obama's turn at the dias was funny and eloquent - his concluding remarks were especially remarkable, but overall the comedic stage for the presidential contestants seemed to release pent up political tension and remind everyone we're in the same boat together. Kudos for all involved.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
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duchess,

Hopefully, this will set your mind at ease.

Greta

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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The Tin Foil Hat Video I received in an e-mail is a bit long...11 minutes but still posting it. Some Democratic lawyer for some reason is pushing this (in the video). I honestly don't know what to think. Not losing any sleep over this though, don't worry. [Biased]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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I did a quick "back check" on the thread and, so far anyway, haven't found any previous reference to the eligibility thing. Which surprised me a bit, given that the original lawsuit was filed in July, apparently by a Hillary Clinton supporter. Maybe I've just missed it?

Given the Clintons' capacity for playing hard-ball, it seems remote in the extreme to me that

a) the eligibility issue had not been explored in advance by Hillary Clinton's team, and

b) Senator Obama's past had not been the subject of previous official scrutiny by US security authorities. A "fabricated" past would have been flagged up for security reasons.

So I'm not inclined to give the story any credence. If it's being run as an "October surprise" then it must be a part of McCain's "you can trust me more than him" approach. In other words, to give some swing voters a reason to doubt, a reason to switch. "Play the man, not the ball". Frankly, it looks like all they've got left now.

[ 17. October 2008, 08:41: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
The Tin Foil Hat Video I received in an e-mail is a bit long...11 minutes but still posting it. Some Democratic lawyer for some reason is pushing this (in the video). I honestly don't know what to think. Not losing any sleep over this though, don't worry. [Biased]

I think it's crap. A pathetic, desperate Hail Mary in the final second of the game.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I saw the entire Al Smith Dinner roast and my respect for McCain was (surprisingly) restored.

Mine wasn't. He was funnier than snot, and his sense of comic timing in some areas was devastating. He definitely produced longer and louder laughter than Obama in the "joke" part of his address, and rightfully so. And his more serious parts came across as heartfelt and gracious and well-thought-out. I can see why people thought highly of this John McCain and spoke well of him.

So where did this John McCain go? Where was he just one night before? Where was he when these not-quite-racist attack ads and stump speech attacks were being mooted? Why has this kinder, gentler John McCain been invisible for the past three months or more?

Far from restore my respect, this stomped it even flatter. If he is capable of being this human and good-natured and open and so forth, then either he is cynically turning it off just to win an election, or he is being manipulated by others in ways that are beyond his control. Neither of which do I have much respect for.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Campbellite

Ut unum sint
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From the clips I saw, it looked like McCain was just this side of conceding the race.

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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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Honestly, I think John McCain has two problems. First, he takes every disagreement with himself as a personal attack. Witness that part of the debate, he characterized Obama's ads knocking his tax plan as personal attacks. More than anything else, I have a huge problem with that -- what's he going to do the first time another country disagrees with his policies? Turn into a snide, sarcastic asshole? He needs to control his temper (and I speak as one from his end of the spectrum, which is one of many, many reasons I will never be qualified to hold public office).

Second, and I think this is more important, is that he's just fucking pissed that he's having to do this anyway. By all rights the 2000 nomination should have been his, and he should have been in office for at least four of the last eight years. Instead the Republican smear machine anointed our current moron-in-chief and McCain's had to watch from the sidelines as that knuckle-dragger turned the US into a dangerous and yet oddly Third World country. In addition to that, he had to kowtow to the same smear machine to get the nomination this year. If he gets elected my only hope is that he tells the Republican leadership and right wing nutjob base that got us into this mess to get screwed and goes back to his old self.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason I. Am:
Thanks, Mousethief. My question showed my age -- Clinton received over 300 electoral votes in both of his wins, and George Bush Sr. got over 400 when he beat Dukakis in 1988.

[ETA cross-posted with Sioni. I knew that elections used to be a lot more lopsided, but I wasn't aware that they were always that way up until 2000, as it seems.]

Not always, young Padawan [Biased] . I remember the 1976 election being a squeaker and my elders told of the 1960 one (mostly when our little constitutional crisis in 2000 was going down). With a little shifting in votes the "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline would have been true in 1948.

1992 felt closer down on the ground, but it was electorally pretty convincing due to the effect of the Perot vote. Remember that Bill Clinton only got a plurality in that one.
The "Electoral Index" site has history and some "what if" scenarios. 2000 wins the recent-memory prize for "fewest votes shifted could tip the election" though.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
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Re the Al Smith dinner: If that John McCain had been at the debates and on the campaign trail, this race would be considerably different. I'm glad to see the "old" McCain and I hope he finds his way back.

In the clips it looked like Hillary Clinton was thoroughly enjoying herself - good on her!

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Honestly, I think John McCain has two problems. First, he takes every disagreement with himself as a personal attack.

I think this is just about the biggest problem we face politically in this country -- politicians being unable to keep the personal and the political separate. This was the problem with Richard Nixon, you may recall. It is a very serious threat to democracy.

This is what scares me about Gov. Palin. Anyone who allows their public office to be used to press personal vendettas should be impreached. It is a very serious concern.

And I think that Sen. McCain shows a tendency in that direction (as did Pres. Clinton, who was blessed with so many powerful enemies that he never got a chance to give his vindictiveness full sway.)

This, to me, is the most important sense in which character is important in choosing a President. And Obama seems to demonstrate a remarkable ability to refrain from mixing the personal and the political. Let us hope that this is not just his persona, but his character.

--Tom Clune

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Scot

Deck hand
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
[McCain]'s just fucking pissed that he's having to do this anyway. By all rights the 2000 nomination should have been his, and he should have been in office for at least four of the last eight years. Instead the Republican smear machine anointed our current moron-in-chief and McCain's had to watch from the sidelines as that knuckle-dragger turned the US into a dangerous and yet oddly Third World country. In addition to that, he had to kowtow to the same smear machine to get the nomination this year. If he gets elected my only hope is that he tells the Republican leadership and right wing nutjob base that got us into this mess to get screwed and goes back to his old self.

If he went on TV tonight and said that, I'd vote for him.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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Newspapers may not do investigative reporting any more. But Rolling Stone Magazine's newest issue has an important piece of investigative journalism: a story by Robert Kennedy Jr and Greg Palast on Republican vote suppression efforts.

After you've read that, read the David Iglesias interview on TPM.com.

Then make sure you're still a registered voter.

It's hard to believe that the press keeps echoing the nonsense about ACORN, when the only real voting fraud isn't that Mickey Mouse gets registered to vote. The real fraud is that real voters are being denied their right to vote.

(That's why I made a contribution to Steal Back Your Vote. One of my great aunts was involved in fighting for women's suffrage. I grew up hearing stories about how important it is to ensure that all citizens can vote. The voter suppression tactics we're seeing right now are despicable, and those engaging in them, or turning a blind eye, are truly endangering the fabric of our democracy.

They should be deeply ashamed.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Newspapers may not do investigative reporting any more. But Rolling Stone Magazine's newest issue has an important piece of investigative journalism: a story by Robert Kennedy Jr and Greg Palast on Republican vote suppression efforts.

After you've read that, read the David Iglesias interview on TPM.com.

Dahlia Lithwick had an excellent article along those lines yesterday in Slate. FWIW

--Tom Clune

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FreeJack
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# 10612

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quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
From the clips I saw, it looked like McCain was just this side of conceding the race.

What happens if he does concede now?
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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
What happens if he does concede now?

I don't know that it's possible. I think it's too late to take him off the ballot. Voting has already started in a lot of states.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
What happens if he does concede now?

I don't know that it's possible. I think it's too late to take him off the ballot. Voting has already started in a lot of states.
I'm not exactly sure what the legal status of a concession speech is anyway. If a candidate concedes an election, and then it turns out that he won, I presume his concession speech does not undo the results of the ballot.

--Tom Clune

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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But you can't force a person to become president. It would have to be thrown back to the electoral college, many of whose delegates are not strictly bound by the election results of their states and could change their votes if it became necessary.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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The voting goes forward anyway, because he's still officially the Republican nominee and it's too late to change the ballot. And his name forever becomes mud in the GOP.

At the Al Smith dinner, it seemed to me from his demeanor that McCain really meant the things he said about Keith Olbermann; his anger shone through.

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agrgurich
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
From the clips I saw, it looked like McCain was just this side of conceding the race.

What happens if he does concede now?
Nothing. He's not conceding the election & even if he did it would be legally meaningless. Some of you may not realize that there are thousands of Republicans running for other offices whose campaigns would be devastated if McCain did what you suggest.

We still have to have an actual election.

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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole

AJG

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
At the Al Smith dinner, it seemed to me from his demeanor that McCain really meant the things he said about Keith Olbermann; his anger shone through.

Again the "taking it personally" thing.

Agrgurich, "he never would" is not really an answer to "what happens if he did?" Although granted that was not the entirety of your answer and you did address the question directly.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
[McCain]'s just fucking pissed that he's having to do this anyway. By all rights the 2000 nomination should have been his, and he should have been in office for at least four of the last eight years. Instead the Republican smear machine anointed our current moron-in-chief and McCain's had to watch from the sidelines as that knuckle-dragger turned the US into a dangerous and yet oddly Third World country. In addition to that, he had to kowtow to the same smear machine to get the nomination this year. If he gets elected my only hope is that he tells the Republican leadership and right wing nutjob base that got us into this mess to get screwed and goes back to his old self.

That's my take on it as well... It's really his last shot at the presidency, he appears to have set aside all his principles in order to go "all in" and play the game to win.

Which is perhaps the saddest part of this whole election. I don't think he's going to win (although anything can happen). I will be delighted by an Obama win, but it's sad to see what McCain has become. He's risked every good thing he's done for the last 3 decades-- his voice of reason in a party increasingly going off the rails, his sense of personal ethics in delineating between "opponent" and "enemy"-- all those things that made him a man of integrity whether you agreed with him or not. Now that he appears no different than the very folks he once called "agents of intolerance".

It was a daring gamble, but one that I suspect will ultimately cost him everything. Very sad.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I'm not exactly sure what the legal status of a concession speech is anyway. If a candidate concedes an election, and then it turns out that he won, I presume his concession speech does not undo the results of the ballot.

Didn't Gore concede to Bush then call him back and retract it after they realized how close Florida really was?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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agrgurich
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

Agrgurich, "he never would" is not really an answer to "what happens if he did?" Although granted that was not the entirety of your answer and you did address the question directly. [/QB]

Thank you, I think! Barry Goldwater said once that he knew from the 1st day of his presidential campaign that he was beaten. That didn't stop him from carrying on until the end.

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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole

AJG

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Hiro's Leap

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Why is US politics so much more interesting than ours? You get far better debates, AND comedy evenings.
[Confused]

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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I think the only way he would actually concede is if he had a sudden major health issue or a major scandal, and in both cases I mean really major.

Instead he just seems to have given up in a lot of areas, pulling ads in states that he doesn't think he can win, etc.

I wonder if he'll run for Senate again or just retire to one of his homes when this term is up.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Instead he just seems to have given up in a lot of areas, pulling ads in states that he doesn't think he can win, etc.

But this isn't conceding the race, just conceding certain states. No point in spending money in a state you can't win when you've got a limited amount of money.
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trouty
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Colin Powell is making a TV appearance on Sunday and is rumoured to be endorsing one of the candidates. Which one is his more likely choice?
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by agrgurich:
Barry Goldwater said once that he knew from the 1st day of his presidential campaign that he was beaten. That didn't stop him from carrying on until the end.

Does make you wonder why he started though. Although ofttimes if you can bring any delegates to the convention, you can influence the platform.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
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SCOTUS rules in favor of Ohio voters.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Foolhearty
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quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
Colin Powell is making a TV appearance on Sunday and is rumoured to be endorsing one of the candidates. Which one is his more likely choice?

Well, Powell is a Republican. Although he was also treated pretty badly by his fellow Repubs.

But neither is Powell a rabid ideologue (which is probably why he was treated shabbily by the Shrubbies.

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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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Apparently there have been rumors for months that Powell was going to endorse Obama.

An Ex-Powell Aide Explains Why the Time Is Right for an Obama Endorsement

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Apparently there have been rumors for months that Powell was going to endorse Obama.

An Ex-Powell Aide Explains Why the Time Is Right for an Obama Endorsement

By my lights, endorsements are all about improving the lot of the person giving the endorsement. It's awfully hard to see what good endorsing Obama would do for Powell. He would alienate those Republicans who still have some respect for him, and not impress any Democrat with such a late conversion. His endorsement wouldn't add any value to Obama, so it wouldn't garner any obligations for Powell.

OTOH, if he endorsed McCain, it would be seen in some Republican quarters as doing what he could to help McCain. It might actually be worth something in the future.

I rather suspect that Powell is too old to be able to cash in on any future Republican administration's good will, so it's hard to see that such an endorsement would be of any value to him one way or the other.

Of course, dangling the possibility that he would be endorsing someone might make him seem like a bit of a player still. So intimating that he might endorse someone may have some value to his image. But an actual endorsement seems like it would be silly.

--Tom Clune

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Powell unfortunately has been too tarnished by his association with the Bush administration to be a plausible candidate for elective office in the future. As to party affiliation, I always thought he was rather like Eisenhaur, not an ideologue and not strongly committed to either political party. I think at the same time that Powell is still generally respected enough in the country that his endorsement could be of some value to Obama.
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Choirboy
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I do think a Powell endorsement would be helpful to Obama, especially among moderate conservatives or Republican-leaning independents.

I wouldn't rule out another turn for Powell at State or Defense in an Obama administration, despite the Bush connections. In spite of being a tool in the lead-up to the war, he was the one sensible person in the administration about how to fix things and get out afterwards. This doesn't lessen his culpability for getting us into this mess in my mind, but I do think he might be a good one to get us out.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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The Chicago Tribune has endorsed Obama. Also in the news: Hell freezes over.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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agrgurich
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quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
The Chicago Tribune has endorsed Obama. Also in the news: Hell freezes over.

That's the 1st time the Chicago Tribune has ever endorsed a Democrat for president since it was founded in the 1840's. The Letters To the Editor page will have to be printed on asbestos.

I wonder how many subscriptions will be cancelled.

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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole

AJG

Posts: 4478 | From: Michigan's Copper Country | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Orb

Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256

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So is anyone going to start predicting what will happen to the Republican party after November 4th?

Is there any possibility they will catastrophically implode, leading to the disintegration of the two-party system and leaving idiotic conservatives no peg on which to hang their perversity and backward ways?

There's always hope, right?

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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agrgurich
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# 5724

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quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
So is anyone going to start predicting what will happen to the Republican party after November 4th?

Is there any possibility they will catastrophically implode, leading to the disintegration of the two-party system and leaving idiotic conservatives no peg on which to hang their perversity and backward ways?

There's always hope, right?

I didn't think anyone here would favor a one-party state. Perhaps, I was mistaken.

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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole

AJG

Posts: 4478 | From: Michigan's Copper Country | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Orb

Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256

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quote:
Originally posted by agrgurich:
I didn't think anyone here would favor a one-party state. Perhaps, I was mistaken.

You're probably right.

But what about, say, three, or maybe four? Or even more?

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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agrgurich
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# 5724

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quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
quote:
Originally posted by agrgurich:
I didn't think anyone here would favor a one-party state. Perhaps, I was mistaken.

You're probably right.

But what about, say, three, or maybe four? Or even more?

I would have no objection provided we avoided the system that Mexico had until recently where the government party wins all the eections & the opposition was never allowed to win.

I believe in the at-least 2 party system.

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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole

AJG

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Foolhearty
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# 6196

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Well hey.

We might be about to re-institute one.

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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Your neighbour to the north has a Parliament with five parties and two real live independents, and the leading party does not have a majority.

That was the sort os situation when we formally got Medicare (as in real coverage for everyone) as well as settling a number of other major issues, including a new flag for the country.

Of course, it did take quite a lot of actually talking to each other. Something that the far off-centre appear to find impossible.

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It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
So is anyone going to start predicting what will happen to the Republican party after November 4th?

The frustrated wingnuts that remain will morph into a hyper-nationalist America First Party at townhall type meetings organized at beer halls and NASCAR races. Amidst the foam and spittle, a new patriotism will arise from the depths of the most crushing depression in world history. The true cause of our economic misery will be forgotten in a mad rush to blaim Arabs and their stooge in the White House for every perceived insult from inflation to our utter lack of respect on the world stage.

The America First Party will adopt the red shirt and take to the streets with torchlight marches, minority harrassment, political assassinations - eventually staging an event attended by thousands of disaffected unemployed who assault Capitol Hill then occupy congress and the senate for several days. When the National Guard is called out to quell the riot, the citizen soldiers move en masse to support and protect the insurrection. Dozens of Senators and Representatives are arrested and executed on the Capitol steps before the cheering throng.

The President resigns and turns over control of government to Joe the Plumber, solidifying the Second American Revolution and establishing The New United States of America. Within days, the entire Middle East is reduced to a radioactive wasteland as is Moscow, Beijing, North Africa and the Korean peninsula. Six months later, all that remains of human civilization are a few dozen ragged bands of sick survivors shuffling through the debris, competing with roaches for the few remaining bits of uncontaminated sustenance.

Well, you asked.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Foolhearty
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# 6196

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Yeah.

But what if they lose?

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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Instead he just seems to have given up in a lot of areas, pulling ads in states that he doesn't think he can win, etc.

But this isn't conceding the race, just conceding certain states. No point in spending money in a state you can't win when you've got a limited amount of money.
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with pulling ads and saving resources for actual battlegrounds.

Where I go "WTF?" is that apparently he's still campaigning away (and spending $) in states that were swing in the last election (mostly upper midwest) that most polls show as "solid" Dem in this one. And apparently not so much in the "new" swing states in this election (plus the old reliables: Florida, Ohio, Missouri).

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Foolhearty:
Yeah.

But what if they lose?

[Overused] [Killing me]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Orb

Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256

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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Well, you asked.

What about the Democrats, Gort? [Try not to disappoint me.]

P.S. Have you been reading "The Road" recently?

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Joe the plumber is/was an Alaskan?
[Killing me] Tell me its not true? He looks quite a lot like a pit bull but he doesn't wear lipstick!

Poor McCain. Will he ever get a break? Maybe he should stick to comedy?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
trouty
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# 13497

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quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
So is anyone going to start predicting what will happen to the Republican party after November 4th?

Is there any possibility they will catastrophically implode, leading to the disintegration of the two-party system and leaving idiotic conservatives no peg on which to hang their perversity and backward ways?

There's always hope, right?

I hope you are not seriously hoping for that. It would be a good thing for America if borh parties could purge themselves of their idiotic wings - if only the Dems could get rid of the Michael Moores and the Reps could get rid of the Rush Limbaughs things would be a lot better.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged



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