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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
trouty
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# 13497

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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I do think a Powell endorsement would be helpful to Obama, especially among moderate conservatives or Republican-leaning independents.

I wouldn't rule out another turn for Powell at State or Defense in an Obama administration, despite the Bush connections. In spite of being a tool in the lead-up to the war, he was the one sensible person in the administration about how to fix things and get out afterwards. This doesn't lessen his culpability for getting us into this mess in my mind, but I do think he might be a good one to get us out.

I heard that Obama might aappoint Richard Lugar as Sec of State if he wins the election.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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From fivethirtyeight.com, an anecdote about an interesting little group, sexist racists for Obama:

quote:
So a canvasser goes to a woman's door in Washington, Pennsylvania. Knocks. Woman answers. Knocker asks who she's planning to vote for. She isn't sure, has to ask her husband who she's voting for. Husband is off in another room watching some game. Canvasser hears him yell back, "We're votin' for the n***er!"

Woman turns back to canvasser, and says brightly and matter of factly: "We're voting for the n***er."

It's hard to know what to say about this.
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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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It sounds like a couple smart-asses who are tired of canvassers knocking at the door.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
From fivethirtyeight.com, an anecdote about an interesting little group, sexist racists for Obama:

quote:
So a canvasser goes to a woman's door in Washington, Pennsylvania. Knocks. Woman answers. Knocker asks who she's planning to vote for. She isn't sure, has to ask her husband who she's voting for. Husband is off in another room watching some game. Canvasser hears him yell back, "We're votin' for the n***er!"

Woman turns back to canvasser, and says brightly and matter of factly: "We're voting for the n***er."

It's hard to know what to say about this.
He's not a nutter. His speechwriters and would-be-VP are as mad as a bag of rabid rats, but he isn't.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
From fivethirtyeight.com, an anecdote about an interesting little group, sexist racists for Obama:

quote:
So a canvasser goes to a woman's door in Washington, Pennsylvania. Knocks. Woman answers. Knocker asks who she's planning to vote for. She isn't sure, has to ask her husband who she's voting for. Husband is off in another room watching some game. Canvasser hears him yell back, "We're votin' for the n***er!"

Woman turns back to canvasser, and says brightly and matter of factly: "We're voting for the n***er."

It's hard to know what to say about this.
I'm thinking urban legend, even if it is on 538 (which is better than some at the "checking" thing).

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
From fivethirtyeight.com, an anecdote about an interesting little group, sexist racists for Obama:

quote:
So a canvasser goes to a woman's door in Washington, Pennsylvania. Knocks. Woman answers. Knocker asks who she's planning to vote for. She isn't sure, has to ask her husband who she's voting for. Husband is off in another room watching some game. Canvasser hears him yell back, "We're votin' for the n***er!"

Woman turns back to canvasser, and says brightly and matter of factly: "We're voting for the n***er."

It's hard to know what to say about this.
well, no Bradley effect I suppose

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by Foolhearty:
quote:
Originally posted by TE Brown:
quote:
Originally posted by Foolhearty:

God save us. Can you imagine if she becamse President?

Here's one conceptualization -
http://palinaspresident.com/

Oh, I love it. Which is better -- the four blank diplomas? The science book in the wastebasket? Or the shot gun hidden in the drapes?
They keep adding stuff. I saw a certain plumber's van outside the window last night [Biased] .

Charlotte

--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Orb

Eye eye Cap'n!
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quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
There's always hope, right?

I hope you are not seriously hoping for that. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Is one of the two major parties taking a big hit not the quickest and simplest way to get a third party in there?

I'd rather it was the Republicans than the Democrats.

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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agrgurich
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# 5724

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orb:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by trouty:

Is one of the two major parties taking a big hit not the quickest and simplest way to get a third party in there?

No, If one of the 2 big parties collapsed either a 3rd party would replace the old party(as the Republicans replaced the Whigs) or the opposition vote would be fragmented until a new 2nd party emerged. If BOTH parties collapsed then you might have a multi-party system at least for a while.

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Life is a comedy to those who think & a tragedy to those who feel.-Horace Walpole

AJG

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moron
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I was getting my right wing rabid mouth breathing conservative talk radio fix yesterday and heard it suggested the IBD poll was pretty close last election, allegedly giving it more credence than some.

I'm no statistician but this seems within the margin of error and maybe McCain ought not yet concede? Of course it could be old news not factoring in the last debate.

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
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quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
quote:
There's always hope, right?

I hope you are not seriously hoping for that.

Is one of the two major parties taking a big hit not the quickest and simplest way to get a third party in there?
It hasn't been in my memory. Both parties have taken pretty big hits and lived to run another day.

Third parties (which we have) traditionally play spoiler. They worked against Bush 41 in 1992 (and to a lesser extent against Dole in 1996), against Gore major league, big time in 2000, and Humphrey in 1968. And that's just the ones in my lifetime.

John Anderson ended up not being much of a factor in 1980 because it was such an EV blowout.

Charlotte

--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re http://palinaspresident.com/ :

Push the little red button in the lower right corner.

[Devil]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I would recommend opening the door several times too.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re http://palinaspresident.com/ :

Push the little red button in the lower right corner.

[Devil]

what red button??

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Even more so than I was before

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
I was getting my right wing rabid mouth breathing conservative talk radio fix yesterday and heard it suggested the IBD poll was pretty close last election, allegedly giving it more credence than some.

One really interesting thing in that poll is the data on how people who label themselves 'moderate' plan to vote: The split was 60:25:15 (Obama:McCain:Unsure)

And how common is it to have 13% undecided at this stage?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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So Gen Powell endorses Obama and issues a scathing indictment (for him) of the Republican party. Bout damn time someone spoke up.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
So Gen Powell endorses Obama and issues a scathing indictment (for him) of the Republican party. Bout damn time someone spoke up.

Great news! How important is Powell's support likely to be?
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cliffdweller
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quote:
I would recommend opening the door several times too
Only two times if kids are present. Last two are just not kid-friendly.

My fav is the hidden desk compartment on the left, and of course the bridge to nowhere.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Figbash

The Doubtful Guest
# 9048

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Powell said (courtesy of the BBC):

quote:

"I'm also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the [Republican] Party say... such things as 'Well, you know that Mr Obama is a Muslim'.

"Well the correct answer is, 'He's not a Muslim, he's a Christian, he's always been a Christian'. But the really right answer is, "What if he is?' Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is 'No', that's not America."

What a relief to finally hear somebody say that. Am I alone in feeling a bit sick at McCain responding to the 'He's a muslim' thing with his waffle about being a 'family man'. As Powell says: and if he was, so what?
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New Yorker
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As we Americans cast our votes on Election Day, I do think it would be good for us to recall that our actions have consequences not only in this life but for the life to come as well. Bishop Hermann sums up the matter. If one votes for a pro-abortion candidate one will not be able to say "I did not know" when standing before Christ the Judge.
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The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
As we Americans cast our votes on Election Day, I do think it would be good for us to recall that our actions have consequences not only in this life but for the life to come as well. Bishop Hermann sums up the matter. If one votes for a pro-abortion candidate one will not be able to say "I did not know" when standing before Christ the Judge.

I find it horribly sad that people who would think that way even have a vote.
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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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If we stand before the Lord, having voted for someone who has little interest in being supportive of mothers and the children who are born, one will not be able to say, "I didn't know" when standing before Christ the Judge.

Sort of a rock and a hard place, eh?

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
If we stand before the Lord, having voted for someone who has little interest in being supportive of mothers and the children who are born, one will not be able to say, "I didn't know" when standing before Christ the Judge.

Sort of a rock and a hard place, eh?

What Lyda*Rose said.

It's sad to hear that my salvation is dependent on how I view exactly one moral issue.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Foolhearty
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# 6196

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New Yorker, am I to believe that a Presidential candidate's stance on abortion outweighs all other considerations in your mind -- including how this country interacts with (or makes war on) other countries, how this country provides for and/or protects its own citizens, and how or whether this country honors and maintains its own governance under the Constitution?

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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
So Gen Powell endorses Obama and issues a scathing indictment (for him) of the Republican party. Bout damn time someone spoke up.

Great news! How important is Powell's support likely to be?
More important than the McCain campaign would like to admit. Gen Powell is still highly respected amongst the military (retired and active) and this may push Florida into Obama's columnn. Hell, it might even make Georgia close.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
As we Americans cast our votes on Election Day, I do think it would be good for us to recall that our actions have consequences not only in this life but for the life to come as well. Bishop Hermann sums up the matter. If one votes for a pro-abortion candidate one will not be able to say "I did not know" when standing before Christ the Judge.

Could you explain to this unenlightened Brit exactly what steps W. has taken to outlaw abortion? Or what steps Bush the elder took to outlaw abortion? Or what steps Reagan took to outlaw abortion? Or even what steps Richard Mihous Nixon took to outlaw abortion?

As a supplemental, could you explain to me in exactly what way the Presidential candidate whose position on the Middle East appears to be that there are not enough wars going on in that region and the US ought to start one with Iran can meaningfully be described as 'Pro-life?'

[ 19. October 2008, 20:04: Message edited by: Gildas ]

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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Gildas, I think your answer comes in this excerpt from the article, which, if one really feels that way, there's not much arguing against:

quote:
The Catholic Church teaches, in its catechism, in the works of Pope John Paul II and in the writings of Pope Benedict XVI, that the issue of life is the most basic issue and must be given priority over the issue of the economy, the issue of war or any other issue. These same teachings inform us that when both candidates permit the right to abortion, but unequally so, we must chose to mitigate the evil by choosing the candidate who is less permissive of abortion.
However, I believe that is a false premise. I have always been very anti-abortion, I think it's murder and have said so here before, and I look forward to the day when it is no longer considered necessary. However, to say that this single issue is more important than living, breathing human children dying in war and poverty is inconsistent with Christ's teachings and the Catholic Church has the wrong end of the stick here.

But there's not really any arguing with their basic belief. Nothing you say will make the first dent.

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Orb

Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re http://palinaspresident.com/

Does anyone else think her voice sounds like Malibu Stacey?

--------------------
“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Gildas, I think your answer comes in this excerpt from the article, which, if one really feels that way, there's not much arguing against:

quote:
The Catholic Church teaches, in its catechism, in the works of Pope John Paul II and in the writings of Pope Benedict XVI, that the issue of life is the most basic issue and must be given priority over the issue of the economy, the issue of war or any other issue. These same teachings inform us that when both candidates permit the right to abortion, but unequally so, we must chose to mitigate the evil by choosing the candidate who is less permissive of abortion.

Dear sweet Baby Jesus. The RNC couldn't have written a better. We might as well just throw away the whole planet. "He pressed the button and destroyed us all, but at least he was willing to say, 'if it were up to me I'd make abortion illegal,' and that's what mattered." For the love of God what a paid endorsement for the GOP this is. I wonder how much money changed hands.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Hiro's Leap

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# 12470

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
[Colin Powell's endorsement is] more important than the McCain campaign would like to admit.

Glad to hear it. That was my hunch, but I thought I'd better check.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Dear sweet Baby Jesus. The RNC couldn't have written a better.

Probably not. And what's with "the issue of life is the most basic issue and must be given priority over [...] the issue of war"? How is war ever not an issue of life? For that matter, how many lives would be saved if the $700 billion bailout and $2,000 billion of Iraq war-chest had been spent on health? (Or maybe new energy solutions, to try and prevent the NEXT Middle East war.)
[Confused]

New Yorker, I appreciate abortion is a key issue for you. If the two parties' positions on abortion were switched round, which way would you vote?

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New Yorker
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# 9898

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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
New Yorker, I appreciate abortion is a key issue for you. If the two parties' positions on abortion were switched round, which way would you vote?

HL -

That's a great question and it's been on my mind the past few days. Suppose, in an alternate universe, a la Turtledove, that Obama and McCain were the exact same men with the exact same political views except that Obama were pro-life and McCain were pro-abortion. I cannot stand most of Obama's views on most other subjects. Yet, given those circumstances I'd have to vote for him. Life is that basic an issue. Trumping all others.

I simply cannot comprehend how anyone who is human can view the matter differently. It's like being a 1930s German voter and saying, yes, those Nazis want to euthanize the mentally retarded, but damn, they build great autobahns so I'll vote for them.

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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
[qb] New Yorker, I appreciate abortion is a key issue for you. If the two parties' positions on abortion were switched round, which way would you vote?

HL -

That's a great question and it's been on my mind the past few days. Suppose, in an alternate universe, a la Turtledove, that Obama and McCain were the exact same men with the exact same political views except that Obama were pro-life and McCain were pro-abortion. I cannot stand most of Obama's views on most other subjects. Yet, given those circumstances I'd have to vote for him. Life is that basic an issue. Trumping all others.

I simply cannot comprehend how anyone who is human can view the matter differently. It's like being a 1930s German voter and saying, yes, those Nazis want to euthanize the mentally retarded, but damn, they build great autobahns so I'll vote for them.

This doesn't mean that caring for single mothers, their children, the poor, the war, etc etc are not important. It just means that those issues don't matter if someone is not allowed to live and deal with them.

Remember, everyone arguing about the right to life for unborn babies is alive.

[ 19. October 2008, 23:00: Message edited by: New Yorker ]

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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Life is that basic an issue. Trumping all others.

I simply cannot comprehend how anyone who is human can view the matter differently.

I understand, I feel that way about war.

--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
This doesn't mean that caring for single mothers, their children, the poor, the war, etc etc are not important. It just means that those issues don't matter if someone is not allowed to live and deal with them.

But the whole argument is over whether or not we're actually talking about a someone, or merely a potential someone. Ceding the argument to yourself and then arguing from there as to which "side" is right is circular reasoning.

quote:
Remember, everyone arguing about the right to life for unborn babies is alive.
Duh. So what?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Suppose, in an alternate universe, a la Turtledove, that Obama and McCain were the exact same men with the exact same political views except that Obama were pro-life and McCain were pro-abortion.



New Yorker, here's the problem I have with what you said here: you need to unpack the words a little bit. When someone says that Obama is pro-abortion, what, exactly, does that mean? When someone says that McCain is pro-life, what, exactly, does that mean?

By pro-life, do you mean "wants abortion to be illegal" or do you mean "wants to make the greatest decrease possible in the number of abortions"? Or something else?

By pro-abortion, do you mean "wants abortions to be rather more frequent than they are now" or "wants abortions to be legal"? Or something else?

Further, have you considered the possibility that it's easy for a candidate to say they want abortion to be illegal, and then do absolutely nothing to change the status quo? In fact, for six years, there was a pro-life Republican in the White House, and Republican majorities in the House and the Senate. Exactly what did these Republican pro-life politicians do to make abortions illegal?

If they didn't make abortions illegal then, how, exactly, does it further the cause of making abortions illegal to vote for pro-life Republicans?

In addition, have you considered the possibility that there may be ardently pro-life people who think that it's more important to direct resources towards practical steps to reduce the number of abortions right now, rather than tilt at the windmill of overturning Roe v. Wade?

Which is more important, to say you want to overturn Roe v. Wade, or to actually save lives?

What if someone believes that Obama's social and economic policies will do far more to reduce the number of abortions than McCain's pro-life policies? If they believe that, then would you agree that, the preservation of the lives of innocent unborn being such a basic issue, they must, in that case, vote for Obama?

Or is the preservation of the lives of innocent unborn not the real issue after all?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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mousethief

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Then there's the shameful fact that the US has the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world. Whose social services platform will do more about that, McCain's or Obama's? I know who my money's with there. Or does it not matter whether they die in infancy as long as they're born?

[ 19. October 2008, 23:33: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Alfred E. Neuman

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It seems particularly revealing that those Republicans who espouse a "conservative" viewpoint, on matters from political to religious, are most prone to using superficial labels with little or no evident examination of complex underlying issues. So much easier to spout "Terrorist", "Patriot", "Anti-American", "Winning the War", "Pro-Abortion", "Advanced Interrogation Techniques" - on and on.

I'm so damned tired of the Fear, Uncertainty and Disinformation techniques that the Republican political machine continues to use. They seem to be appealing to the lowest common demagogues within the constituency. The honest, thinking members of the GOP have abandoned their party in droves. All that remain at McCain's rallies are hardcore, redneck, beer-drinking, fear-mongerers expressing anger over collapse of their cherished fantasies. The simmering violence is frightening.

Kudos to Powell so eloquently expressing disappointment with the direction his Grand Old Party has taken under McCain's leadership.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Josephine writes:

New Yorker, here's the problem I have with what you said here: you need to unpack the words a little bit. When someone says that Obama is pro-abortion, what, exactly, does that mean? When someone says that McCain is pro-life, what, exactly, does that mean?

By pro-life, do you mean "wants abortion to be illegal" or do you mean "wants to make the greatest decrease possible in the number of abortions"? Or something else?

By pro-abortion, do you mean "wants abortions to be rather more frequent than they are now" or "wants abortions to be legal"? Or something else?

Further, have you considered the possibility that it's easy for a candidate to say they want abortion to be illegal, and then do absolutely nothing to change the status quo? In fact, for six years, there was a pro-life Republican in the White House, and Republican majorities in the House and the Senate. Exactly what did these Republican pro-life politicians do to make abortions illegal?

If they didn't make abortions illegal then, how, exactly, does it further the cause of making abortions illegal to vote for pro-life Republicans?

In addition, have you considered the possibility that there may be ardently pro-life people who think that it's more important to direct resources towards practical steps to reduce the number of abortions right now, rather than tilt at the windmill of overturning Roe v. Wade?

Which is more important, to say you want to overturn Roe v. Wade, or to actually save lives?

What if someone believes that Obama's social and economic policies will do far more to reduce the number of abortions than McCain's pro-life policies? If they believe that, then would you agree that, the preservation of the lives of innocent unborn being such a basic issue, they must, in that case, vote for Obama?

Or is the preservation of the lives of innocent unborn not the real issue after all?

Amen, Josephine-- exactly right.

Thank God, I believe that finally American evangelicals-- well, some of them anyway-- are finally waking up from their long GOP-induced slumber to realize they've been played.

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duchess

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quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
I find it horribly sad that people who would think that way even have a vote.

And I think it horribly sad if anybody does not have the right to vote, even if I think they are ape-shit in their agendas, so I disagree with you 100% in your assessment here. That is all.

[spelling.]

PS: I am glad all have a basic right to vote.

[ 20. October 2008, 01:10: Message edited by: duchess ]

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Nicolemr
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quote:
It's like being a 1930s German voter and saying, yes, those Nazis want to euthanize the mentally retarded, but damn, they build great autobahns so I'll vote for them.

Funny you should mention Hitler, New Yorker. You do realize that Nazi Germany had some of the strongest anti-abortion laws in history on the books? So actually it's more like saying:

"Yes, those Nazis want to euthanize the mentally retarded, but damn, they are really anti-abortion, so I'll vote for them."

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
PS: I am glad all have a basic right to vote.

Unfortunately, duchess, the GOP is working hard to ensure that lots of people don't get to exercise their basic right to vote this year.

Check out the Rolling Stone article I posted a link to earlier, and if it makes you as angry as it made me, check out the link in my sig for a practical way to help. If you want more information, google voter suppression.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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Not sure if you've been purged from the voter registration list? Online check here.

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
quote:
It's like being a 1930s German voter and saying, yes, those Nazis want to euthanize the mentally retarded, but damn, they build great autobahns so I'll vote for them.

Funny you should mention Hitler, New Yorker. You do realize that Nazi Germany had some of the strongest anti-abortion laws in history on the books? So actually it's more like saying:

"Yes, those Nazis want to euthanize the mentally retarded, but damn, they are really anti-abortion, so I'll vote for them."

so did Stalinist Russia

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re http://palinaspresident.com/ :

Push the little red button in the lower right corner.

[Devil]

what red button??
Actually, it's evidently the legendary Red Phone, but, on my computer and connection, it originally showed up as a red button. It's exactly in the lower right corner. Look for a blob of red, and click on it.

[Smile]

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Lyda*Rose

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I think my Foxfire frame must cover it up. [Frown]

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Zwingli
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quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
Funny you should mention Hitler, New Yorker. You do realize that Nazi Germany had some of the strongest anti-abortion laws in history on the books? So actually it's more like saying:

"Yes, those Nazis want to euthanize the mentally retarded, but damn, they are really anti-abortion, so I'll vote for them."

so did Stalinist Russia [/QB][/QUOTE]
And Ceausescu's Romania; when they prohibited abortion, the rate of live births went up to such an extent that people simply abandoned excess babies, hence the infamous Romanian orphanages.

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Further, have you considered the possibility that it's easy for a candidate to say they want abortion to be illegal, and then do absolutely nothing to change the status quo?

Alas, I am acquainted with many politicians who say they will do x or believe x and then don't do it or act on their belief. But, abortion will not disappear under a pro-abortion Obama presidency. Abortion may be addressed under a pro-life McCain presidency.

(Also sorry for the strange double post above. I've just come back to the thread and saw it. I recall, that as I was typing yesterday my cat was attempting to walk across the keyboard. So that probably had something to do with it. Given all the hijinks ACORN is up to around the country, I suppose my cat should be registered to vote. I'll attend to that right now!)

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Further, have you considered the possibility that it's easy for a candidate to say they want abortion to be illegal, and then do absolutely nothing to change the status quo?

Alas, I am acquainted with many politicians who say they will do x or believe x and then don't do it or act on their belief. But, abortion will not disappear under a pro-abortion Obama presidency. Abortion may be addressed under a pro-life McCain presidency.

what is his plan for addressing it?? How did Reagan and Bush help to make abortion illegal in the US during their terms???

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Carys

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Further, have you considered the possibility that it's easy for a candidate to say they want abortion to be illegal, and then do absolutely nothing to change the status quo?

Alas, I am acquainted with many politicians who say they will do x or believe x and then don't do it or act on their belief. But, abortion will not disappear under a pro-abortion Obama presidency. Abortion may be addressed under a pro-life McCain presidency.
In the same way that it was addressed under a pro-life Bush presidency?

I don't think abortion is a good thing, but my position is I'd rather women had access to safe, legal abortions than risking death in backstreet abortions and thus think that legislating against abortion is not necessarily the best way of reducing abortion. Working to improve social conditions, reduce teen pregnancies and provide free contraceptives strikes me as a much better way forward. One nice thing about the NHS on this side of the pond is that the contraceptive pill is free.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Further, have you considered the possibility that it's easy for a candidate to say they want abortion to be illegal, and then do absolutely nothing to change the status quo?

Alas, I am acquainted with many politicians who say they will do x or believe x and then don't do it or act on their belief. But, abortion will not disappear under a pro-abortion Obama presidency. Abortion may be addressed under a pro-life McCain presidency.
Wow, you use two remarkably different standards for the two candidates.

"Abortion will not disappear under a pro-abortion Obama presidency."

I can guarantee, with no risk at all of being contradicted, that abortion will not disappear under a pro-life McCain presidency. There is no chance of it. Zero. Zip. Zilch.

So if that's the standard you're holding Obama to, why are you not holding McCain to the same standard?

And, going back to my post above, would you explain exactly what you mean by pro-life and pro-abortion?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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