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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: New Archbishop of Westminster
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Genug iz genug! If someone wants to write a report on York Minster, I'll edit it to include the archbishop's full name.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
So what's the story on the versus populum altar? Did they put it back now that the smoke has cleared (pardon the pun), or is it gone for good?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
So what's the story on the versus populum altar? Did they put it back now that the smoke has cleared (pardon the pun), or is it gone for good?
The high altar is still versus populum. I suspect that what you mean to refer to is the movable altar, which I am not sure whether it is gone for good, sometimes, or subject to review. I was at Westminster Cathedral for the Saturday vigil Mass last weekend when the high altar was used. However, time will tell and I am there often enough to know what happens about that from now on.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
The High Altar has always been away from the wall as I think it there has always been a preference for the altar to be freestanding so that incensing the altar could be done from all around the altar, even before the second vatican council reforms, however it's never been a requirement (it is a requirement for all new altars now... although that doesn't mean that mass has to be said facing the people.)
It's not very likely that one would ever see the Mass celebrated in the ordinary form at Westminster Cathedral with the priest's back to the people, because Westminster Cathedral is the Mother Church of the whole Church in England and Wales and it's not normal practice in the ordinary form for the priest to preside with his back to the people... although there is nothing wrong with that.
One would not see the Extraordinary Form celebrated facing the people either, because once again that's not normal practice although there is nothing wrong with that and is permitted.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
In response to Max's new post, I was in Westminster Cathedral on Saturday 14 June last year, for the extraordinary celebration of High Mass that afternoon. It was celebrated by a visiting (Spanish) cardinal; the whole service was a real tour de force lasting about two hours and the Cathedral was full to standing-room only.
The point I am making is that Mass on that occasion was celebrated ad orientam and I presume the altar can be moved back against the reredos on the rare occasions that Mass is celebrated in this way.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
The ABC's middle name is Douglas rather than David.
Thanks. I'll correct it.
Not 'D' for druid then?
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The point I am making is that Mass on that occasion was celebrated ad orientam and I presume the altar can be moved back against the reredos on the rare occasions that Mass is celebrated in this way.
Altars do not move.
Movable mass altars do, but the high altar is not movable. It has always been freestanding.
Max.
[ 28. May 2009, 18:50: Message edited by: Max. ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The point I am making is that Mass on that occasion was celebrated ad orientam and I presume the altar can be moved back against the reredos on the rare occasions that Mass is celebrated in this way.
Altars do not move.
Movable mass altars do, but the high altar is not movable.
Neither is there any need for it to be. There is plenty of room on the footpace for the celebrant to stand.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
If altars had been built properly with space around them as the regulations required, there would have been no need for all the destruction of the last 40 some years. Additionally if a footpace had been added to many that were not already free of the wall, the same situation would obtain.
Nice to see Westminster's proper set-up.
[cross posted with TT]
[ 28. May 2009, 21:41: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
The High Altar is made of solid granite - 9 tonnes worth of solid granite. There is space between it and the gradine on which the crucifix and candles stand, and there always has been.
The problem is there is not very much space, and working from that side of it makes for a certain cramped effect. It is also not entirely conducive to concelebrants standing around. The work of the MC is also made the more difficult by this lack of space.
Early on in his tenure as Archbishop, Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor proposed moving the Altar a few feet forward. This would correct some of those problems. However, 9 tonnes requires a lot of foundation to stand on, and a lot of work would have been required. £75 000 worth of work in fact. Spending that amount of money on the project seemed a little foolish so the idea was scrapped.
For the time being the platform and movable altar are being kept hidden. Soundings are apparently taking place, and what people think of the arrangement. Ultimately the new Archbishop will decide on what should be done.
Abp Nichols is currently doing a series of meetings around the diocese, in the four "areas" of the diocese. I was at one of them this evening: a truly wonderful occasion. He met with the priests first, in an informal gathering. He made a point of speaking to each one of us individually. He then addressed us all for about 20 minutes - immensely positive and pastoral. We then said Evening Prayer together and broke off for some light refreshments. About an hour later we had a most wonderful Mass - a typical London parish at its very best, packed to the rafters. Missa de Angelis, belted out louder than I have heard anywhere before, and all with a decided wail effect! The host parish is mainly West African in its congregation, and they gave that African effect to the music. Heavenly!
Tis good to be in the Archdiocese of Westminster right now!
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Tis good to be in the Archdiocese of Westminster right now!
Oh, so you're an archdiocese again, eh?
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I tell you, that arch has been slipping in everywhere this last week! Service booklet tonight labelled "Archdiocese of Westminster".
I had a rant about it to one of the monsignorial pillars of the diocese the other day. He told me off in an interesting way. He said it was "old money" speak - and very English. Like calling this a house. And then he placed us alongside the Apostolic See, saying "It's the Diocese of Rome".
Which kind of makes me now want to be a Diocese again ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) /
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
quote:
Which kind of makes me now want to be a Diocese again
said Fr. Triple Tiara, archly.
If the Pope is the Bishop of Rome, then it makes sense that he only has a diocese. But Westminster has an Archbishop, so they have to be an Archdiocese, don't they?
I get confused because in the C of E the Diocese of Canterbury has an Archbishop.
And we Orthodoxen are never quite sure whether our bishops are Metropolitans or not. I live in the Metropolis of New Jersey, but New Jersey is not a city; it's a state, and Pennsylvania is in the Metropolis of New Jersey also, but not Pittsburgh.
Make sure your Archdiocese doesn't borrow any of our terms, it will only make things worse.
Best wishes,
Mary ![[Biased]](wink.gif) {fatuous wink borrowed without permission)
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I had a rant about it to one of the monsignorial pillars of the diocese the other day. He told me off in an interesting way. He said it was "old money" speak - and very English. Like calling this a house. And then he placed us alongside the Apostolic See, saying "It's the Diocese of Rome".
To which the correct reply is something like:
"And is this our bishop's way of showing his papal aspirations, or has he simply given up and chosen this as a next-best-thing?!"
Be careful what you wish for, or you might find your auxiliary bishops reigning over suburbicarian sees, your big churches under the rule of archpriests, and your organs going sour!
As for the "old money" speak, I thought that was an Anglican thing.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Tis good to be in the Archdiocese of Westminster right now!
Sincere and warm congratulations to you and to all of Westminster - arch or not!
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Like calling this a house.
I understand. Cottage would be a better term.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
1. They vest
2. They sit together as a body
3. They intend to concelebrate
4. They do the things required at a concelebration.
I think it's the same with our lot too.
I don't see why there would be a difference between 5 concelebrants and 500 provided there's enough space for them.
Which reminds me of +++Moscow's enthronement.
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
If the Pope is the Bishop of Rome, then it makes sense that he only has a diocese.
But the Pope (according to the Annuario Pontificio) is the Archbishop and Maetropolitan of the Roman Province.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
Oh, I see. Yes, I didn't know about the Metropolis and the Province. Thanks, Trisagion!
Best wishes,
Mary
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
It occurs to me that Archbishop Vincent Nicholls is not yet wearing his pallium since his translation from Birmingham, so that he looks relativly bare in his vestments without it. Can any shipmate explain when that is going to be remedied, and whether he has to have one of his trips to Rome in order to receive his (new) pallium? As Cardinal Cormac was not already an archbishop, having been translated from Arundel and Brighton as Bishop, this query did not apply when he took over the Archdiocese of Westminster.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
That was discussed further up the thread, here.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Thanks TT. Probably due to the long length of this thread, I had missed it.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Ogre
Shipmate
# 4601
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Posted
Just out of curiosity, what happens to the old pallium after the Archbishop is issued with a new one?... Is it returned to Rome to be presented to the next incumbent?...Or kept as one of the 'treasures' of the Archdiocese?... ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Pete Ergo Religionem
['Therefore Seek a Way of Life']
Posts: 480 | From: West Midlands, UK | Registered: Jun 2003
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
A pallium is a personal item. The one on whom it was bestowed should normally be buried wearing it.
I discovered in a chance conversation during the pre-installation chatter what happens with additional ones: a priest who knows about such arcane details said in passing "I hope someone remembers, when he dies, that his Birmingham pallium should be laid under his head". I have not looked up if that is correct, but as I said the one making the remark knows about such things.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
So does that mean that +Cormac is still entitled to wear it?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
What happens for instance if +Westminster pops his Pallium in the wash one day with a red (he's a cardinal you see) sock and forgets to use a colour catcher?
Does he get a new one sent to him by Royal Mail special delivery or does he have to go back to Rome and get a new one?
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
The pallium may only be worn by a Metropolitan Archbishop, within his Province. Since this no longer applies to Cormac, he may no longer wear the pallium.
As to whether an Archbishop may get a replacement pallium, I think the answer is no.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
As to whether an Archbishop may get a replacement pallium, I think the answer is no.
So poor old Cormac will have to be very careful when he does his own washing now. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I feel kind of sorry for him.
Could he wear his Pallium in his house? On his own?
Max.
[ 04. June 2009, 01:06: Message edited by: Max. ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
When a retired archbishop is lying in the casket, though, he does wear his pallium around his neck, doesn't he?
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Aye! Ready to serve his new diocese in heaven.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Well, that's a good question MartinL. presumably if he is a reigning Archbishop when he dies, it goes round his neck. But what of someone like Cormac? He was entitled to wear it, but no longer is. Mmmm. I shall have to do some research.
Max, Max, Max ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Even in his own bathroom Cormac is not the Metropolitan Archbishop. Even there Vincent now has jurisdiction.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
So what will he do with it? Drape it over his Sky HD Box?
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
The last paragraph of this article tells us: quote:
The pallium can neither be lent, nor given away, nor bequeathed to anyone at death, but all pallia received by the metropolitan are to be buried with him--the last pallium placed over the chasuble of the deceased metropolitan, the others, folded, under his head.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Aw.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Why are so many Brits up so very late - and all far apart from each other?
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Why are so many Brits up so very late - and all far apart from each other?
Oh, we're not up, TT. We're sleep-posting. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
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Posted
quote:
The pallium can neither be lent, nor given away, nor bequeathed to anyone at death, but all pallia received by the metropolitan are to be buried with him--the last pallium placed over the chasuble of the deceased metropolitan, the others, folded, under his head.
I guess this doesn't apply to the Pope who laid the pallium he took up the day he began his petrine ministry at the tomb of Celestine V.
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Why are so many Brits up so very late - and all far apart from each other?
I assumed you were all praying Matins.
The last paragraph of this article tells us...
Thanks. I can definitely say that the late Archbishop of Chicago was buried with his pallium on. I wonder if the pallium he wore as Archbishop of Cincinnati was duly tucked under his head.
I guess this doesn't apply to the Pope who laid the pallium he took up the day he began his petrine ministry at the tomb of Celestine V.[/QUOTE]
Who was this?
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Well, I really messed up the quotes on that last post. My apologies...I was sleep-posting. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
[ 04. June 2009, 03:14: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Well, that's a good question MartinL. presumably if he is a reigning Archbishop when he dies, it goes round his neck. But what of someone like Cormac? He was entitled to wear it, but no longer is. Mmmm. I shall have to do some research.
Max, Max, Max Even in his own bathroom Cormac is not the Metropolitan Archbishop. Even there Vincent now has jurisdiction.
He's still a cardinal though - is he entitled to wear it in his titular church in Rome? Or does he count as a cardinal but still not a metropolitan?
(which is his church, btw???)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Cormac has that most gorgeous of churches, Santa Maria sopra Minerva. Which makes him the parish priest of Gammarelli's and all the other emporiums in the tat arcade!
The pallium has nothing to do with being a Cardinal. Most Cardinals do not wear one - because it may only be worn by a Metropolitan Archbishop within his Province.
The exception is the Pope, who wears it anywhere and everywhere. And if the Pope happens to be visiting his Province, the Metropolitan Archbishop has to keep his discreetly tucked away in the sacristy: nobody else wears the pallium in the presence of the Pope.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The late Archbishop of Glasgow,Cardinal Winning, who died while still holding the office,had the pallium, in the usual place ,(i.e.not under his head)when he was lying in state before the funeral.
Presumably after his death he was no longer the archbishop.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Do you think Archbishop Jonty Blake has one?
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
In the Orthodox Church, the pallium is simply the Western equivalent of the omophor. Indeed, like the chasuble and the phelon, they are the same garment but have developed differently in east and west. The pallium/omophor is a sign of the bishop's temporal authority over a portion of God's vineyard. A priest/parish/monastery under a bishop's jurisdiction is said to be under his omophor, and the western pallium is no different. When we have had Western Rite bishops, they have worn the pallium. In the Byzantine Rite, it is removed before the Gospel and paraded before the people to show that the bishop has relinquished the sign of his authority for the proclamation of the words of Him from Whom that authority comes. Otherwise, the bishop wears it whenever vested, regardless of his rank or office.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
The last paragraph of this article tells us: quote:
The pallium can neither be lent, nor given away, nor bequeathed to anyone at death, but all pallia received by the metropolitan are to be buried with him--the last pallium placed over the chasuble of the deceased metropolitan, the others, folded, under his head.
Wow! TT quotes from a priest I know! Small world.
Fascinating stuff. I wonder on or under which body part will the pallia of Cardinal Egan and Archbishop Weakland be placed when they die?
[ 04. June 2009, 16:31: Message edited by: Franco-American ]
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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
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angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
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Posted
Was not Cardinal Hume buried in his benedictine habit? Would the pallium have been placed over that?
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Cardinal Hume was indeed buried in his monastic habit - and wearing the pallium.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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