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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Feasts of Mary
Forthview
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In the piazza di Spagna in Rome there is a statue of the Virgin Mary honouring her Immaculate Conception.It is a longstanding tradition that the statue ,high on its column, is decorated with flowers on the feast day. The Rome fire Brigade place a wreath of flowers over the Virgin's arm and in the afternoon the Holy Father comes to lay his wreath beside the others and to conduct a short service of devotion.

There are always large crowds participating at this exercise of traditional Catholic piety on the public holiday which is the 8th of December.

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Eddy
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Thats really interesting. I wonder if anyone can point to a photo of this - especially with the Holy Father on it. That would be fab.

I think it would be fab as well to decorate statues of Our lady in our churches for this great feast.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Does Immaculate Conception have a Vigil Mass - and why not if not - I think Assumption does.

S. Clement's, Philadelphia, has Solemn First Vespers of the Immaculate Conception and Benediction tomorrow.

My 1962 missal has 7 December as St Ambrose. I can't speak for the ordinary form.

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Thurible
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It doesn't this year (a Sunday in Advent trumping a Solemnity) but I can't remember whether or not it does ordinarily and don't have a missal at hand to check.

Thurible

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New Yorker
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I know that this is not what was said, but I suddenly have the image of +++BXVI climbing a fire ladder to crown a statue of Our Lady. The mind boggles.
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dj_ordinaire
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Statues commemorating the Immaculate Conception very often seem to be placed on pillars in Catholic Europe. Is this, then, in imitation of the one in Rome?

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Eddy
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I checked up on the Vigil Mass business. Assumption is a Solemnity with a Vigil mass, Immaculate Conception is a Solemnity - but no Vigil mass. I don't know why, and wonder if actually anyone does know why the difference!
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
It doesn't this year (a Sunday in Advent trumping a Solemnity) but I can't remember whether or not it does ordinarily and don't have a missal at hand to check.

Thurible

From memory of the modern Roman Rite, nothing takes precedence over a Sunday in Advent. The four Sundays form a sequential unit and must not be interrupted. The Conception, (Immaculate, if you like That Sort Of Thing™), must be transferred if it falls on a Sunday.

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Adam.

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Incidentally, I've no idea why we celebrate Ambrose on December 7th, as he died on Holy Saturday 397.

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The Scrumpmeister
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I think that was the date of his conversion rather than his heavenly birthday.

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Ceremoniar
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Actually, 7 December was the date of Ambrose's consecration.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Actually, 7 December was the date of Ambrose's consecration.

Thank you for the clarification, Ceremoniar. IIRC, his priestly and episcopal Ordinations were performed with some haste after his Baptism, so I probably wasn't off by more than three or four days. I knew it was somewhere around that time.

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New Yorker
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Good question: why does Assumption have a Vigil but not Immaculate Conception?
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dj_ordinaire
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Could it be related to the fact that Easter has a Vigil but the Annunciation doesn't?

Just a wild speculation....

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Janine

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Seems all grand and noble and knights-in-a-chapel to hold a Vigil re: the Assumption, but, big theological meanings aside, a conception seems so concentrated and hidden and private. Could that have something to do with it?

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Forthview
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The statues of the virgin Mary at the top of a column, often celebrating the Immaculate conception are quite common crtainly in Central Europe. I think it was quite a counter Reformation thing.A good number of the 'plague columns'(Pestsaeulen) in Austria have the Immaculate Conception on them.

The British, however, have more earthly heroes,such as Nelson, on the top of columns.

I can't really find photos of the 'Omaggio florale all'Immacolata' (Floral hommage to the Madonna) but you will probably find them on a Vatican website after the event.Or if you have sat TV you can watch it on a special broadcast of RAI 1.It is about 4pm or 3pm in GB.

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
From memory of the modern Roman Rite, nothing takes precedence over a Sunday in Advent. The four Sundays form a sequential unit and must not be interrupted. The Conception, (Immaculate, if you like That Sort Of Thing™), must be transferred if it falls on a Sunday.

Indeed.

Thurible

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Triple Tiara

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Papa and the Immacolata:

2006

2007

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Eddy
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Thanks for the links to the lovely photographs Triple Tiara they are fantastic.

I know I'm always asking about things but in this photo who are the pictures at the base of the statue of? Or are they representations of our Lady?

And I know some guys here know all about what the pope is wearing so please could you tell what the names are of the robes he is wearing at the Immaculate Conception event in this photo.

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Triple Tiara

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[Big Grin]

The picture looks like a painting of our Lady. One of those pious customs of some people. The flowers would all have been tributes/offerings from various groups or individuals and somebody probably included their own painting or some such gesture.

The Pope is wearing:

Simar - that's his white cassock
Rochet - the lace garment. Ordinary clerics wear a surplice (aka a cotta) while prelates wear a rochet - same function.
Mozetta - the red cape. This is the winter version, lined with fur. JPII did not wear the winter version, but B16 has brought it back.
Stole - the Pope usually wears a red stole as part of his formal wear.

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Eddy
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So the fringed thing beneath the rochet is part of his cassock?
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Triple Tiara

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It's just the fascia - I think known by Anglicans as a cincture.

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Forthview
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Piazza di spagna is so called because of the Spanish embassy located in it. you see in some of the photose the spanish flag draped over the balcony of the embassy. i think that the ambassador also greets the Holy father. some of the photos also show the statue of the Madonna with the floral wreath round her arm.
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Eddy
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It is wonderful that the Immaculate Conception is honoured so publcially in Rome. I guess that it is done in that location because the people of Spain have high regard for Our Lady - the Immaculate Conception, someone at Mass today said it was the Spanish mothers' day.

I think its so fab when these feasts of Our Lady have extra ceremonies and not just a mass of the day. I guess all we do i put extra flowers out - but thats something isnt it.

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Pancho
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Today at mass the priest reminded everyone that the Immaculate Conception is patroness of the U.S. and that tomorrow is a holy day of obligation hear in the U.S. I'm looking forward to singing 'Immaculate Mary' tomorrow. *crosses fingers* EWTN is broadcasting tomorrow's mass from The National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

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Edgeman
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I'm wondering what we'll do at my parish tomorrow, as we count the Immaculate Conception as the pseudo secondary feast of our patron. Last year landed on a Saturday, so not much, the year before was a solemn mass.
Altogether, I'm going to three masses. One at the cathedral after finding out This bit of information, another at a church in South Philly, where a priest friend of mine is celebrating the first tridentine mass in his parish, and lastly, I'll be serving the evening mass at my own parish.

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Triple Tiara

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quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
I guess that it is done in that location because the people of Spain have high regard for Our Lady - the Immaculate Conception, someone at Mass today said it was the Spanish mothers' day.

Nice idea, but not accurate. It's just that a large column in Piazza di Spagna was erected to commemorate Pope Pius IX's definition of the dogma in 1850. It's in the far corner of Piazza di Spagna, right outside the offices of Propaganda Fide. It has been the focus of this commemoration ever since.

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The Silent Acolyte

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This seems to be the wanted pic.

[I don't know nothing about it; I just fed immaculate conception and 3T's large column in Piazza di Spagna into images.google.]

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Eddy
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It would be fab to hear how Immaculate Conception was celebrated at your home church - or wherever you were. I'll look forward to seeing what folk here have experienced on this great Solemnity.
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Thurible
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There's quite a fun photo on the Oxford Oratory's pewsheet here (only available til next week's goes up so look at it quickly!).

Thurible

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Eddy
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Thats a fab photo on the pew sheet. Thanks for pointing to it.

St Alban's Holborn don't seem to have anything listed in their calendar for today - Immaculate Conception. The only thing listed is carol Singing this coming Thursday. Thats odd for such a place, I reckon. Its a bit of a crap website actually.

St Magnus the martyr had a High mass for the Feast on Saturday! How come? Do they use a different calendar to the rest of Christendom. Here is the link to it. You've got to scroll down a bit.
And who are: "The Confraternity of Our lady de Salve Regina"?

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Bishops Finger
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The ICotBVM was duly celebrated this evening at our place. There were 13 in the Lady Chapel (including Father), which is not bad for a backstreet parish on a cold December night!

We began with the hymn Mary Immaculate, Star of the Morning, and then we said the Angelus before continuing with the Mass. The Nicene Creed was included, as well as a psalm and three readings (our Low Masses usually omit the Gloria and the Creed, and we generally just have the one reading, psalm, Alleluia and Gospel). We sang I'll sing a song to Mary at the Offertory (well, they did - I was busy being server) and finished up with three verses of Immaculate Mary (the Walsingham hymn......).

One small addition to the tat in the Chapel (which is actually quite minimalist!) - a rather nice carved wooden image of Our Lady was flanked by two tall candles. Usually, she just has the one little votive light next to her. (BTW, our main Lady Shrine is actually just outside the chapel proper - there isn't room for the big statue inside it.....).

Ian J.

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Eddy
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That sounds a lovely Mass.

Immaculate Mary is lovely, isn't it? It would be great to see a photo of that chapel.

We had lots of flowers and candles around Our lady's statue today.

Was there a sermon or talk given on the significance of the feast?

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New Yorker
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Standing room only at the noon Mass at my parish. Said Mass with no music, but Father wore a lovely white/gold fiddleback chasuble and maniple. Father had a wonderful homily. Said Gloria and Creed. Start at 12.05. Finished about 12.45. Lots of dine and dash or Judas Walkers. But since there were lots of business types and other workers I can understand. Father was assisted by a Deacon which is odd. Another visiting priest was hearing confessions before Mass and straight through the entire Mass.

I wish RC parishes would do up major feast days; I just don't see it done.

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Eddy
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Can you sum up what Father said? Go on - have a go - it would be interesting to know.

Now here I am in England and do you know what - I don't understand what you mean by " Lots of dine and dash or Judas Walkers." Sounds interesting - any chance you could explain PLEASE! [Smile]

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Knopwood
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The Toronto Oratory has a Sung Latin Mass (ordinary form) tonight.

I myself am just on my way off to the Procession and Solemn Mass at the Church of St Mary Magdalene.

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Bishops Finger
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Hazarding a guess, I'd say 'dine and dash' types are those who sneak into Mass round about the Gospel, make their Communion and then sneak quickly away! Dunno about Judas Walkers, though........

We had a homily as well. Father explained that, if Our Lord was to be born without the taint of Original Sin, then Our Lady had to be without that taint as well. He said that when people complain that doctrines such as this are not based on Biblical teaching, it is because the Church and its teachings actually pre-date the Bible as we know it today! Another thread, perhaps.........

It occurred to me that we could have added a few more candles and flowers to the Chapel today, and we could have had incense as well.......

Ian J.

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Eddy
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Hmmm... what are Judas walkers anyone?

Now, Bishops Finger if "Our Lord was to be born without the taint of Original Sin, then Our Lady had to be without that taint as well." Not so sure about that one - does it mean St Anne had to be too?

Does anyone keep octaves of big days now and did Immaculate Conception then have one?

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dj_ordinaire
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Well, now, I had a very... erm... interesting time last night. Yes, I think that's the term I'm looking for.

Looking for something a bit different I decided to join the SSPX for their evening Mass. I arrived at the little church they use just down the round from my house to find a group of people standing around outside. It turned out that the service was actually being conducte elsewhere so, feeling a little awkward, I was loaded into a car and drive off to a house in the countryside.

So I found myself sitting in someone's front room with about twenty other people praying the joyful mysteries and attending the Mass. I have to say my overall impression was... that's it? That's what Abp Lefebvre got excommunicated for? A simple, normal little mass, a little quieter than normal but in mumbled Latin rather than mumbled English. Nice to see a maniple in use, but no lace, no biretta, only two candles on the altar just like any normal RC church would have, and a short sermonette, again of the absolutely bog-standard sort.

After Mass we prayed the Litany of our Lady and I walked back down the country road that leads back into town.

God knows what they thought of me... I doubt that Anglicanism is much on their radar and I suspect I may have surprised them by owning a rosary and knowing when to genuflect and what-not (the only thing that caught me out was continuing to kneel for the Epistle, which I hadn't expected). When I mentioned I was at the University, the conversation switched irrevocably towards the Godlessness of stem-cell research, with occasional digressions into the heresies of the Russians, Vatican II as the time of persecution predicted in Scripture &c &c.

I'm not really sure what to make of it tbh. All very surreal. It was in some ways redolent of certain Anglo-catholic churches I've worshipped in inasmuch as the group was small, eccentric, in dispute with much of their denomination for reasons obscure to outsiders and contained quite a few well turned-out young men of my own age or a little younger (not something one normally encounters in a church otherwise). I don't think I liked it, pleasant though some of the devotions were and friendly though the people may have been (although with proselytising tendencies!)

One query - at the points in the devotions where the Marian anthem was used, it was 'Hail Holy Queen...' on each occasion. Should it not have been 'Mother of Christ to thee thy people cry' during Advent?

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Thurible
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I was going to say that 'Mother of Christ' is only peculiar to Advent in the old rite but as you were with SSPX...

Thurible

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Forthview
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thanks for your description of the Mass you attended.It would certainly resonate with my own impressions of a SSPX Mass.

Most Catholics know the prayer 'Hail,holy Queen..Salve Regina.....

Not so many,even including the SSPX members or adherents ,would know the Alma Redemptoris mater.. for the Advent season.

If you told us when it was used, it might be easier to say why. It is traditionally used at the end of the recitation of the Rosary for example.

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Forthview
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djo - it is too simplistic to say that archbishop Lefebre was excommunicated just for continuing to celebrate the Tridentine form of the Roman Mass. He refused to recognise the authority of the church to make the changes which were made by the assembled bishops at the Second Vatican Council. He refused to recognise the validity of the reformed rite of celebration of the Eucharist.By refusing to accept the authority of the assembled Fathers,he effectively put himself outside of full communion with the Roman pontiff and the rest of the Catholic church.
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dj_ordinaire
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Yes, you're right that I was over-simplifying. Nevertheless, it would be true to say that perceived major differences between what are now known as the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms are one of the main pre-occupations of the SSPX.

The Marian anthem was used three times - once at the end of the joyful mysteries of the Rosary, once after three Aves led by the priest immediately after Mass, and once at the end of the Litany.

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Forthview
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The kneeling at the epistle is one which would catch many people out who are not of a certain age.
Pre Vat 2 it was customary to kneel at Mass from the beginning until the Gospel and then again from the Offertory onwards - at least this was the case in UK and Ireland.

Obviously SSPX members would wish to retain the 'old' and 'correct' customs.

As I said, it is customary to recite the Salve Regina at the end of 5 mysteries of the rosary.

The prayers at the end of Mass which would be in English( or in Erse ?) would be the Leonine Prayers,said at the end of a Low Mass from the late 1800s until 1970. They were said in the vernacular ,with the priest kneeling at the altar steps after Mass - 3 Ave Maria,1 Salve Regina, a prayer to St Michael the archangel, and a prayer for the 'liberty and exaltation of Holy mother church' as well as 3 invocations to the Sacred Heart. In Ireland the 'De profundis' was recited for the souls of those who died in political troubles.

At the end of the Litany of Loreto I think it would be technically more liturgically correct to say the Marian anthem suitable to the season,but then again do you think the Virgin Mary would mind ?

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New Yorker
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"Dine and Dashers" is the silly little phrase I use for those who receive Communion and immediately leave - they just keep walking to the door rather than returning to their pew.

"Judas Walkers" means the same thing; it's a term a priest I used to to know used.

Two questions one of which is repeated from earlier on the thread.

1. Why does the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception not have a Vigil Mass?

2. AFAIK, in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, if 8 December is Sunday, then the IC is transferred to Monday. Was this also done in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rrite?

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Triple Tiara

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Factually, Abp Lefebvre incurred a latae sententiae excommunication only when he ordained 3 bishops without the permission of the Holy See. Until then he had been in the same boat as Hans Kung: communicant Catholic, but on the lunatic fringe.

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Knopwood
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Procession and Solemn Mass of the Conception. Missa Alme Pater. The BCP rite as adapted in the BAS. Minor propers from the modern Roman Rite. Willan prelude and postlude. Epistle, Gospel, and Prayers of the People sung. Alma Redemptoris Mater as the motet at the offertory. The rector (deacon of the Mass) preached most Anglicanly on the Immaculate Conception as a manifestation of the human need for certainty and orderliness.

Hymns:

"Ye who own the faith of Jesus" (Den des Vaters sinn geboren)

"The Lord whom earth and sea and sky" (Puer Nobis Nascitur)

"Sing we of the blessed Mother" (Abbot's Leigh)

Advent Prose (Rorate Coeli)

"Her virgin eyes saw God incarnate born" (Farley Castle)

I should have liked to sing the Ave Stella Maris to plainsong, and/or "Virgin-born, we bow before thee."

About 20 people showed up, despite the secretary of the Society of Mary sending out an email urging all of us to attend. (He was not among us). A friend of mine, who had expressed an interest in coming to a Mass, stood me up.

The traditional St Mary Mag potluck followed.

[ 09. December 2008, 13:02: Message edited by: LQ ]

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Forthview
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TT. I completely agree with your factual statement about Mgr Lefebvre.

One of the 'problems' with the SSPX is that they refuse ,more or less,to recognise the validity of the Ordinary form of the Mass rather than that they simply wish to continue to celebrate in what is now called the Extraordinary form.

PS why was the pope wearing a cream coloured stole yesterday at the Omaggio all'Immacolata ?

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chiltern_hundred
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I'm not sure about that one either, Laetare. I'd argue that our Lady's sins were wiped away by the presence of Our Lord within her, or by her act of saying 'fiat mihi....'. One of these things one can be agnostic about.

quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Hmmm... what are Judas walkers anyone?

Now, Bishops Finger if "Our Lord was to be born without the taint of Original Sin, then Our Lady had to be without that taint as well." Not so sure about that one - does it mean St Anne had to be too?

Does anyone keep octaves of big days now and did Immaculate Conception then have one?



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"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:

2. AFAIK, in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, if 8 December is Sunday, then the IC is transferred to Monday. Was this also done in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rrite?

Yes. I know of a cathedral which is dedicated to the Immaculate Conception and which celebrates its dedication today, on the 9th. It took me a couple of puzzled moments to work out why.

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