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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Germaphobes and Communion
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Sometimes twice a day.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I would like to ask those who say that the Eucharist cannot carry infection, what they would do if they saw the person in front of them slip some cyanide into the chalice, unnoticed by the priest.
Do you reckon that would be safe to drink ?
Church history contains events where the Saint of God was presented with poisons in an attempt to show that Christianity is a false religion. The Saints made the sign of the Cross, and drunk the poison and were just fine. When the magician was ordered by the king to drink his own poison after he was embarrassed by the Christian Saint, he died instantly.
Is the Christian faith a living faith or not? There is no question that it was a living faith once. No doubt our experience of what it is like to be in Church defines our answer to that question. Different experiences mean different answers.
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
This is interesting, because essentially the substance would have changed, so it would be a question of whether or not the Real presence has been maintained by the addition of cyanide.
Yes, cyanide is known for driving away the God of Abraham... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Your tradition, not mine. I'm not an Anglican.
Well, it's not only Anglican, of course: we're actually talking about nearly 2,000 years of Christian tradition -- starting with the example set by Our Lord Himself -- and maintained by all the liturgical churches. That ought to mean something.
Pardon me for noting that you seem to be making it up as you go along. It's too bad that you seem determined to be so hostile to tradition; couldn't you disagree without being so antagonistic?
Max, TT will undoubtedly correct me if I'm mistaken, but my understanding is that Roman Catholic priests are to celebrate the Eucharist at least once a day, under normal circumstances.
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Actually - I'm very sure that Catholic priests are no longer required to do that, that went with the Second Vatican reforms.... well at least that's what the Jesuits told me!
That's why you don't find priests celebrating at side altars anymore and that's why you find priests sitting in-cognito in the congregation on Sunday Mornings, whilst another priest presides up front.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I'm not making this up, I'm simply describing a different POV.
Lessee, some have insisted I accept theological conclusions that the Reformed Churches have historically rejected, and then keep insisting that They Uphold Tradition, as if my particular segment of Christianity is some bunion on the side of Christ's Body. Then we get into arguments about how deeply one should imbibe from the Cup, or whether the laity should hold it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I simply offer a differing POV, and somehow I'm hostile? Right. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
tut tut - one minute I am praising the Jesuits for teaching you well, the next I have to correct their errors (unless you were sleepy that morning and didn't hear properly). The Second Vatican Council had nothing to do with it. There has never been an obligation on Catholic priests to celebrate Mass every day. Their obligation is to celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours every day.
However, there are two motivators to daily celebration: mass stipends and a spiritual encouragement. Concerning the second, Canon 904 says: quote:
Remembering always that in the mystery of the eucharistic sacrifice the work of redemption is exercised continually, priests are to celebrate frequently; indeed, daily celebration is recommended earnestly since, even if the faithful cannot be present, it is the act of Christ and the Church in which priests fulfill their principal function.
The first is the real clincher though: if a priest accepts a mass stipend, he is morally obliged to offer mass for the intention specified by the donor. He may accept only one stipend per day.
The issue of priests at side altars has to do with concelebration rather than daily mass: if a priest concelebrates he has celebrated mass and may accept a stipend: he does not have to say a mass on his own in addition to that.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
Yes, cyanide is known for driving away the God of Abraham...
You seem to think the absence of yeast keeps him away.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
The issue of priests at side altars has to do with concelebration rather than daily mass: if a priest concelebrates he has celebrated mass and may accept a stipend: he does not have to say a mass on his own in addition to that.
Priests around here, as a "day off" activity, might say Mass for one of the many orders of religious sisters.
I believe the local RC priest does this, and in his place one of the deacons leads a Liturgy of the Word with Holy Communion at the usual parish Mass time. There are enough local priests generous enough to do this that the sisters can have Mass every day of the week. I highly doubt that money is involved.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Oh I've said Mass for sisters - they're very generous! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I loved going to the dear Carmelite Sisters for an early morning Mass. Afterwards I would be shown into a parlour where tea, toast, a boiled egg, newspaper and offering in an envelope would be waiting.
I enjoyed the breakfast but not the paper (it was The Guardian ) and I always took the envelope, but posted it into their offertory box.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Max. cracks wise about holy toilets:
The question was posed "We receive Christ in true physical body, blood, soul and divinity, so do we digest him also? And what about after digestion" and the answer was that as soon as the bodily acids change the substance of the Body and Blood of Christ, they cease to be the Body and Blood of Christ and we only digest simple bread and wine as the substance is broken down into a new substance. We absorb the spiritual aspect of the sacrament into our hearts and we are renewed and regenerated by the sacrament.
So Catholics don't have holier toilets than anybody else
If that was covered in even more than a quick aside, then those Jesuit Boys are wasting time. At my little school house the emphasis is not on When is it the Eucharist?, but What is the Eucharist For?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I'm not making this up, I'm simply describing a different POV. ...
I was under the impression that you were dismissing 2,000 years of Christian tradition out of hand, because it does not jibe with your personal preference for much more recent (and far less widely accepted) innovations.
And the tone sure didn't seem friendly. Perhaps I'm simply reading you wrong; if so, I do apologize.
Ross
[ 12. October 2008, 04:42: Message edited by: Rossweisse ]
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I'm not dead yet.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
My understanding is that a Catholic parish priest is obliged to offer Mass,or have Mass offered ,for parishioners on Sundays and HolyDays.
anything more than that coimes down to personal devotion and extra spritual care of the parishioners(as well as the Mass stipends).
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
tut tut - one minute I am praising the Jesuits for teaching you well, the next I have to correct their errors (unless you were sleepy that morning and didn't hear properly).
Meh - I'm ILL! I've got the world's worst cold and I need last rites now!
Max.
[ 12. October 2008, 10:00: Message edited by: Max. ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You seem to think the absence of yeast keeps him away.
I think that Christ has a human soul, and that without a human soul it's not Christ that one receives... OF course, you reject formally Apollinarianism, but in praxis...
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Haven't we had threads where the differences between Greek and Russian Orthodox practice has been discussed?
Andrew: It's huge... So huge the Latins were no longer considered Christians.
Sober Preacher's Kid: The Greek and the Russian Orthodox practice differs.
I really think we are not communicating here properly. When I am saying it's huge, I really mean it's huge. I don't mean it's a small custom of the Greeks which no one else follows. I really mean it when I say this is the Church practice, anything else is not of the Church and not in the Church. To put it differently: no, the Russians do not have a different practice, not them, nor the English, nor the Korean, nor the Albanian, nor the Hebrew Orthodox. In other words: it's huge!
quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
We still call it wine even though it's not fermented. You'll probably have apoplexy but it's what we do.
I think you should reflect deeply on why you change the meaning of words and what implications this has. Not to mention the possibility that you are using other words with different meanings than the intended ones thinking you are following intended use.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You seem to think the absence of yeast keeps him away.
I think that Christ has a human soul, and that without a human soul it's not Christ that one receives... OF course, you reject formally Apollinarianism, but in praxis...
Wow, what a jump in argument!
Of course, formally you reject Gnosticism, but .....
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Wow, what a jump in argument!
Is it though? The Church used yeast representing the soul that gives life to the body, and the Latin Church suddenly stops using yeast changing back to a Jewish custom out of a Christian mystery. You are that surprised this was not received well by the rest of Christianity? Really?
What I don't get is why your churches are so fond of innovations and changes. I don't get this love for change. What's behind it? Perhaps you guys (and I'm not talking only about Catholicism... In this very thread many changes brought by Protestants have been discussed)could help me with this.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Surely, Andrew, if a lack of yeast was the Jewish custom then using yeast is the (post-Jesus) innovation. Why do you like innovations so much?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
This is what gets me with andreas's arguments: late antiquity in the East is taken as the normative standard as if it was that which was given by Christ himself. The fairly late idea of yeast as a symbol of the hypostatic union (beautiful though it is) is presented as if it was given by Jesus himself. The fact that the hypostatic union was only defined by the Council of Chalcedon in 451 shows what nonsense this is. Of course the controversy revolves around the monophysitism of the Armenians, who use unleavened bread, so some of the Orthodox make a deductio ad absurdum that since the Latin Church uses unleavened bread it must be guilty of the same heresy. Never mind the fact that one could say the use of leavened bread comes close to the heresy of Marcionism.
The Latins, by contrast, are aware of the development of doctrine and practice. It is far from clear what the universal custom was in the earliest epoch of the Church, and it is not clear when the use of unleavened bread began in the Latin Rite: some scholars say it was so from the start, others that there was a change - but there is no conclusive evidence. The Armenians certainly used unleavened bread, and they were in union with the rest of Christendom at the early Councils. It was only in 554 that they separated from both East and West. Their use of unleavened bread seems not to have been questioned in the earliest times. The same is true of the Maronites.
Meanwhile, back in adreas-world, everything he believes comes straight from the Lord himself and has always been so.
Dream on.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
All the Church fathers I have read say explicitly that Judaism is a heresy, like idolatry is a heresy. Why some try to imitate the Jews so much is beyond me.
In any case, the Church is either Apostolic, as the creed says, or it isn't. Really your post doesn't address at all why some felt the need to innovate upon the Apostolic practice. Either the Apostolic practice is a whole mystagogy in itself, or we are building on sand. I read the ancients (and I appeal to them, because obviously appealing to contemporary Orthodox practice won't be enough here) and they held the utmost respect for the divine ordinances and the mystagogy of the great Apostles. Why this practice is seen as trivial today, subject to individual whims and tastes? It's a very deep question: Why?
Cross-posted with TT:
The very development of doctrine you are so fond NOW, would almost certainly be considered a heresy by the Catholic Saints and faithful of the middle ages. You don't have to be a Catholic to get it.
To me, the only explanation is that there is no living memory whatsoever of what it means to be a Saint, of what it means to be deified, in the Catholic world today. If there was, there would be no issue of developing doctrines, because everything would be clear in the Revelation of the Word Himself. There is no revelation, and we are left with speculation and interpretation of Christian history.
Am I being harsh here? Yes. But what's at stake is Christianity itself, and what poses itself for Christianity but in reality it isn't.
[ 12. October 2008, 14:39: Message edited by: §Andrew ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Where is your evidence for what the Apostolic practice was with regard to leavened or unleavened bread. Provide that and there would be some merit to your argument. Otherwise you are simply making an assertion.
Judaism is a heresy. Interesting. Does that include the Jewish Scriptures?
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Just as a side note - I'm going to mass in a bit and I'm in the final stages of my cold and I should expect it will be over by tomorrow, so if I take a big slurp from the chalice (which I think I probably will do) am I likely to infect somebody or will the metal of the chalice stop my cold germs? (if they indeed are now infectious)
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
The very development of doctrine you are so fond NOW, would almost certainly be considered a heresy by the Catholic Saints and faithful of the middle ages. You don't have to be a Catholic to get it.
To me, the only explanation is that there is no living memory whatsoever of what it means to be a Saint, of what it means to be deified, in the Catholic world today. If there was, there would be no issue of developing doctrines, because everything would be clear in the Revelation of the Word Himself. There is no revelation, and we are left with speculation and interpretation of Christian history.
Am I being harsh here? Yes. But what's at stake is Christianity itself, and what poses itself for Christianity but in reality it isn't.
No you are not being harsh - you are talking crap. There was clearly a development of doctrine from the start, beginning with the Council of Jerusalem and the question of whether Gentiles could be Christians, through discussions of the Trinity, the Canonical Scriptures, the hypostatic union - everything (yes, everything) was a development. Some things came to be settled, but they took a long time.
As for your repeating your assertion about saints in the West, may I refresh your memory by pointing you to the Hell thread bearing your name
here. Your ass was kicked sideways for that crap back there so I won't address it all again here.
I shall simply leave you to wallow in your Gnostic ideas which are posing as Christianity.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Just as a side note - I'm going to mass in a bit and I'm in the final stages of my cold and I should expect it will be over by tomorrow, so if I take a big slurp from the chalice (which I think I probably will do) am I likely to infect somebody or will the metal of the chalice stop my cold germs? (if they indeed are now infectious)
Max.
A good question, and far worthier than worrying about what we're likely to catch from other people!
Short answer - I don't know. However, if I have a cold or throat-infection or such I receive under one kind only, just in case. I've known other people to do likewise.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
If there is clear evidence of a cold then, for the sake of the weaker brethren, I would abstain. Otherwise they might see and think "phew! I'm not going near that chalice after him!" or "he shouldn't have received with all those germs".
Do not cause your brother or sister to stumble.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Wot TT said.
Plus...
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
All the Church fathers I have read say explicitly that Judaism is a heresy, like idolatry is a heresy. Why some try to imitate the Jews so much is beyond me.
I'm not sure how Judaism even *could* be a heresy, not being a truth claim. If you're referring to the Law (which isn't a truth claim either), why would Paul call it "holy, just and good" (Rom 7:12) if it's a heresy?
quote:
The very development of doctrine you are so fond NOW, would almost certainly be considered a heresy by the Catholic Saints and faithful of the middle ages. You don't have to be a Catholic to get it.
Really? They can't have been reading Irenaeus, then.
quote:
it [faith] consists in working out things that have been said in parables, and building them into the foundation of the faith. (Against Heresies. 10.3)
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If there is clear evidence of a cold then, for the sake of the weaker brethren, I would abstain. Otherwise they might see and think "phew! I'm not going near that chalice after him!" or "he shouldn't have received with all those germs".
Do not cause your brother or sister to stumble.
Yeah - I'm still coughing, I think I might dunk. (well at least attempt to get a LEM to dunk for me)
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Colds are infectious during the initial phase - about two days while you are starting the symptoms. By the time you are sneezing, you are not at all, or less infectious.
The cyanide thing is silly - if I knew a chalice was poisoned, I would pour if down the sink. Reverence for life, including my own, takes precedence.
I downed a fairly full chalice his morning during the ablutions - big baptism where many guests did not come up to the rail - I show no symptoms of having caught anything today.
I do the ablutions nearly every Sunday and haven't had a cold for about four years (though that may be owing to the resistance I built up during thirty years school teaching).
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If there is clear evidence of a cold then, for the sake of the weaker brethren, I would abstain. Otherwise they might see and think "phew! I'm not going near that chalice after him!" or "he shouldn't have received with all those germs".
Do not cause your brother or sister to stumble.
Yeah - I'm still coughing, I think I might dunk. (well at least attempt to get a LEM to dunk for me)
Max.
Dunking yourself probably worse. Your hands are likely to be much filthier than your lips (not meaning that to be in any way suggestive, you understand...)
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Flinging wide the gates...
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Triple Tiara is too nice by half:
This is what gets me with andreas's arguments: late antiquity in the East is taken as the normative standard as if it was that which was given by Christ himself.
What I find richly ironic is that by doing so Andrew aligns himself tightly with the protestant Primitivist heresy: if it can't be shown to have been normative in the primitive church (how ever one determines that what that might be), then it is a distortion and corruption. Of course, everything since that time evinces decay rather than the work of the life-giving Spirit.
After the now-you-seen-him-now-you-don't exhumation of poor John Henry away from his good friend, this suggestion seems topical. Andrew, you might want to make a careful read of John Henry Newman's An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. I'm not saying you would be persuaded, but it's good to get out and about occasionally.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Well, Leo, the cyanide in the chalice is one of those completely hypothetical propositions. Of course, if one of the serpents of the sanctuary had secretely contaminated the wine with cyanide, I guess you as celebrant would be the first one to drop dead, so I don't expect anyone else would be commnicating from said chalice. However, the question is: would a poisened chalice still be the MPB? I would suggest not, since this isn't just a stray, neutral contaminant in the wine, but rather something that changes the nature of the wine so that it is no longer fit matter for the Eucharist and hence no actual change of the Substance can take place. Much as the case with welch's or ribena.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Sorry, that last sentence was excessively provocative. Certainly unfermented grape juice and lethally poisened wine aren't equivalent (though I'm not so sure about Ribena). I don't claim to know what the Holy Spirit does with Welch's, though He's certainly capable of anything.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
IME Our Lord has no problem with Welch's Grape Juice. I posted that before your edit, so cheers, and peace.
I have faith that God the Son, in all his superior majesty, can know a poisoned cup at 20 metres.
[ 12. October 2008, 18:24: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
IME Our Lord has no problem with Welch's Grape Juice. ...
Really? Fascinating.
Max: Trip's right. Abstain (or intinct), not because there's a real danger to others, but so that you do not distract them from their focus on the most holy Sacrament.
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I'm sorry, intinction is vile, IMO. Max, just be a good Catholic and receive the Host only, into your hands, which should be protestant and retro-Anglican enough for you, laddie.
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
Self-intinction is vile. Regular intinction is, well, regular intinction.
If one's condition is sufficiently disgusting (coughing, snurfing, sneezing, leaking, etc.), I agree that it's probably best to stay away from the wine if only because of the general ewww factor for others.
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Cyanide? It seems that God can't handle a cold, let alone cyanide...
Faith in God is good, and all the talk about God being All-Powerful and holding all things in His Hands is good, and talk about the Most-Holy Body and Blood of Christ is good, but we shouldn't take it, well, seriously... Cyanide? Run away screaming! Our life is sacred after all...
Right.
Dear Prosfonesis, I know about the man's theories. I also know what the Church has consistently teaching since... Christ's brother, Judas*. You can read all the Church fathers, all those holy men who took part in the ecumenical councils, nobody said anything about development of doctrine. They all were very explicit that they were repeating the faith once and for all delivered to the people by the Apostles (and to the Apostles by Christ).
This discussion has a particular importance today, in the feast of the seventh ecumenical council, a council which the Franks condemned as heretical, but which the Church of Christ proclaimed as defending the one Christian faith.
By all means, do as you please in your own churches. Just don't expect others to accept your theories and innovations. Get taught by whoever you want. For my part, I prefer the Christian Saints to philosophical speculation or to ungrounded and immature emotionalism.
Ressourcement anyone?
*"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once and for all delivered unto the saints."
[ 12. October 2008, 18:45: Message edited by: §Andrew ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Posted
Andrew, do you even understand the argument regarding cyanide in the chalice? The question is: would this prevent the Sacrament from being confected, because the wine would no longer have the essential character of wine, but would instead be a poisen brew? After all, you wouldn't claim to consecrate a cup of rat poisen into the Most Precious Blood of Christ, would you? The point is, doesn't it amount to the same thing? In the West we talk about Matter, Form, Minister and Intention. If one of those is amiss, a sacrament is at least defective.
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras, do you understand how bizarre it sounds to say "I would pour if down the sink" and then "Actually, I have changed my mind"??? It's not about you you you... What do you expect? That we thank you and your... mind?
For pit's shake! You are changing your mind constantly, and you expect the rest of the world to dance at your tunes!
If the Body and Blood of Christ gets poisoned, the God-fearing priest would make the sign of the Cross, give thanks to God, ask for forgiveness of his sins, and he would consume the Mystery, putting all things in God's hands. So, if God wants the cyanide to act, the priest would sacrifice himself for the congregation, and if God decides for the cyanide to get annulled and return to the nothingness it came from, He will protect His priest and his congregation.
We do mean it when the priest says "With fear of God, faith, and love, approach!" before we receive communion.
I really don't think the Great Fire that is the Body and Blood of God is taken into account here. And this just leaves me speechless. As if there is God in some other world, and we are here in this world...
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Triple Tiara
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Andreas, by all means do as you please in your own delusions. Just don't expect others to take lectures from you when you talk such patent nonsense. If everything came down pure, unadulterated and clear from our Blessed Saviour, why have we had so many Ecumenical Councils?
But by all means, persist in your Gnostic superiority as an enlightened one. Just don't expect anyone else to take that as Christianity.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If everything came down pure, unadulterated and clear from our Blessed Saviour, why have we had so many Ecumenical Councils?
Because it takes internalization. And it's very difficult to internalize Christianity. As your losing your temperance over the posts of a 24 yo in an online forum shows.
Seriously, have you read what the fathers that took part in any ecumenical council said? Did they say they were developing doctrine? Why are they all saying over and over again that what they proclaimed in the councils is the once and for all given by the Apostles faith?
You say they developed doctrine, they said they proclaimed nothing but the faith they received, the faith once and for all given by the Apostles to the faithful. I choose to accept their word over yours. End of story.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
If the Body and Blood of Christ gets poisoned, the God-fearing priest would make the sign of the Cross, give thanks to God, ask for forgiveness of his sins, and he would consume the Mystery, putting all things in God's hands. So, if God wants the cyanide to act, the priest would sacrifice himself for the congregation, and if God decides for the cyanide to get annulled and return to the nothingness it came from, He will protect His priest and his congregation.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen posted on the Ship.
Of course the good Lord doesn't want us to hurl our lives away for nothing. To think so is to get the entire Sacrament of the Eucharist completely the wrong way around.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Of course the good Lord doesn't want us to hurl our lives away for nothing. To think so is to get the entire Sacrament of the Eucharist completely the wrong way around.
It's not for nothing. To think so is to get the entire Mystery of the Eucharist completely the wrong way around.
[ 12. October 2008, 19:43: Message edited by: §Andrew ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If everything came down pure, unadulterated and clear from our Blessed Saviour, why have we had so many Ecumenical Councils?
Because it takes internalization. And it's very difficult to internalize Christianity. As your losing your temperance over the posts of a 24 yo in an online forum shows.
Seriously, have you read what the fathers that took part in any ecumenical council said? Did they say they were developing doctrine? Why are they all saying over and over again that what they proclaimed in the councils is the once and for all given by the Apostles faith?
You say they developed doctrine, they said they proclaimed nothing but the faith they received, the faith once and for all given by the Apostles to the faithful. I choose to accept their word over yours. End of story.
oooooo, are you all cross and sulky now? Never mind. Go and read one of those holy books you keep quoting at us, which give you special insight into how the Lord and the Apostles work. Then come and tell us so you can edify us with your gnosis.
Here's just one example for you: I have never yet heard or read ANY of the saints telling us the Nicene Symbol of Faith came direct from the Lord and his Apostles, magically delivered to them while they were gathered in Council. Good heavens, all those early heretics must have been missing the special gnosis which made them think otherwise.
Again, I ask - if it was all so abundantly clear why the need for Councils? Or was it just those specially favoured ones, you know, the ones with Gnosis, who were able to hear the words direct from the Lord. The ones who had managed to "internalise" the Gospel. Wow - that's a new argument on me from a Christian (from Gnostics, it's an old argument).
Please give me any evidence you might have of the Fathers writing that ALL these things came directly from Christ. You know, those voices you trust more than mine.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Max.
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Posted
The host was intincted and given to me on the tongue whilst the priest said "The Body and Blood of Christ".
Priest also had a bad cold and he told me that he's had it for 3 weeks!
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Of course the good Lord doesn't want us to hurl our lives away for nothing. To think so is to get the entire Sacrament of the Eucharist completely the wrong way around.
It's not for nothing. To think so is to get the entire Mystery of the Eucharist completely the wrong way around.
If it's not for nothing, what is it for? People who die for stupidity are not counted among the martyrs - at least, not in the Western Church.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
Yes, actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ is stupidity, spilling it on the sink (or on the earth) is great wisdom. Fr. TT, we are not getting anywhere. I am surprised you are making it personal, but I assume I can understand why. It's always easier to object at one person's faith than the faith of those whom your Church thinks of as Church Fathers (but hardly takes into consideration).
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Andrew, it's very difficult to respond to you at this point without becoming Hellish. Indeed, almost anything I can think of that is an observation about your last couple of posts would seem to violate the normal rules. Can you possibly try to hear what others are saying here? You seem to have backed yourself into a corner with your idiosyncratic logic. You won't engage with what is really being talked about in this thread, apparently because you are so keen to impress upon everyone else your particular brand of Truth. Only we're talking at cross-purposes. A good night's sleep might help you.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
Yes, actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ is stupidity, spilling it on the sink (or on the earth) is great wisdom. Fr. TT, we are not getting anywhere. I am surprised you are making it personal, but I assume I can understand why. It's always easier to object at one person's faith than the faith of those whom your Church thinks of as Church Fathers (but hardly takes into consideration).
Making it personal? I am responding to the nonsense you are posting. If you don't want people to respond, stop posting! You keep mentioning these Church Fathers, without quoting them, so all we have is your own thinking. And then you get all hurt and full of accusation when people point out your absurdities.
I have not approved of any posts talking about spilling the Lord's Blood - but that does not mean I have to agree with you and the absurd assertion that should someone poison a chalice then God is bound to preserve those who drink from it from being poisoned. This is an absurdity of the highest order. Why don't you try it to see if it works!
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Max.
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I've just spoken with a Greek Orthodox Seminarian (who obviously will have had much more training than you ever had Andreas) and he told me that to expect a priest to drink a poisoned chalice of the Most Precious Blood of Christ was the most ridiculous thing he's ever heard and when I explained the Catholic approach to the substance changing, he said he could probably accept that on a personal level.
Unsurprisingly he's never been asked this question before, but he said that he thinks the proper protocol to follow would be to cover the chalice and leave it to the Bishop to deal with it.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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