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Originally posted by -blood-and-fire-:
If you get them when they are young, they are more likely to stay??

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Originally posted by Regina Cæli:
Children and young people, and most people for that matter, find their spirituality enriched by bold liturgy, whether it be solid Evangelical or solid Catholic. A watered-down, nonsensical, half-hearted, mix n' match version of these traditions is what puts children and me off. It is so very banal, with bits of different traditions used here and there in a really self-conscious way, with no attachment to their actual meaning.

So yes, I believe that children can develop a faith based on what they see in proper worship, and this can grow and be nourished by the church, but I do not believe that we should offer some sort of special alternative, and then leave them out in the dark when they get to a certain age, as this will ensure that they leave.

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Well said RC!

"From middle-of-the-road religion: Good Lord deliver us"

(That is in the Litany isn't it?)

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Originally posted by Regina Cæli:
As the brothers who made it became unwell, and it was traced to the manufacturing process, I doubt that anywhere that has any would be willing to part with it.

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Originally posted by Regina Cæli:
As the brothers who made it became unwell, and it was traced to the manufacturing process, I doubt that anywhere that has any would be willing to part with it.

There are alternatives though. I get the Orthodox 'Purbeck Rose', made by the good people at S Edwards.

RC x

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I hate to say this, but making and/or ingesting that foul blend would indeed make one ill.

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A cowgirl's work is never done.

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Originally posted by Adrian1:
Much as it grieves me, I have to disagree with my good friend Cosmo. Prinknash 'Basilica' is, in my opinion, one of the best forms of incense - if not the best - and given a choice I would use it every time.

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Basilica, IMO, is disgusting. It smells like puff and strangulates my throat. Almost anything else would be nicer.


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London
Flickr fotos

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the choir] should be able to breathe pure, unadulterated air, free from the smell of both incense and stale cassocks

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Originally posted by daisymay:

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Originally posted by Adrian1:
Much as it grieves me, I have to disagree with my good friend Cosmo. Prinknash 'Basilica' is, in my opinion, one of the best forms of incense - if not the best - and given a choice I would use it every time.

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Basilica, IMO, is disgusting. It smells like puff and strangulates my throat. Almost anything else would be nicer.

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I can only assume you aren't having it burnt properly. Sack the thurifer.

Alternatively, as this place did when we got here, it's being kept in the boat, in a damp cellar, and several weeks go by between usages. You do not want to know what that smelt like when put on nearly-out coals (incompetant thurifer). Blech

Re: boatkids. They get to dress up and feel important. Of course they're not going to behave like they do when eg bored silly at school. I did have to keep an eye on mine at the Easter Vigil as I gave him a candle, but apart from that (oh, and giving him a tissue to remove his chewing gum ) the only problem I had was remembering that effectively my width was doubled, so whereas on my own if I stood just there I wouldn't be in the way, with two of us someone will trip over us.

They also look cute even with runny noses and all the old ladies go aaaaah. And they can go on to be servers, and you can actually teach them to do it competantly, rather than the adults who think that "we've never done it like that before" is a proper argument when discussing how to serve...

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"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

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originally posted by angloid:
We had plenty of smoke yesterday but most of it seemed to be charcoal rather than incense. It rather catches the back of the throat and inhibits proper Pentecost(al?) singing. Any thuri-technologists out there who could recommend a remedy? Is it a question of the proportion of charcoal to incense, or how long to let the former burn, or cleaning the thurible, or a combination? I realise a similar thread has been round before but I don't recollect any guidance on this particular problem.

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reply from Merseymike:
Sounds like you need more incense in the mix - and try the more pungent varieties. Next parishioners who go to Italy or Greece. tell them to bring a load back - its good stuff, much cheaper than what we pay here, and usually excessively powerful!

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posted by Ultraspike:
Those self-lighting charcoal briquettes ("Quik-lites" as they're known over here) emit a most noxious odor, and even the strongest incense can hardly overcome it. I recommend "real" charcoal, untreated with chemicals, such as the Kingsford original brand. They take longer to cook but there is much less charcoal smell to compete with. The only problem is you need to have a gas burner or some such setup to cook them. Most sacristies do not have this and must rely on just a lighter or a match to cook the charcoals, hence the need for the self-lighting types.

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posted by frater-frag:
At my church we use only real charcoal as well, the trick is to get it really red-hot before the service starts. And of course, make sure that the celebrant only adds three SMALL spoons off incense...

By time I have managed to discipline our priest on that matter, these days he doesn´t put out the glowing charcoal by OD:ing to death

As for incense, we mostly use "Three Kings", it burns perfectly and leaves no "coalish" remains in the air.

Of course, using a gas-burner for starting up the coals are also nescessary, and, doing the mighty 360¤ swings as well (remember to lookout for chandeliers)!

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the mighty 360¤ swings

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Originally posted by angloid:
Thanks Jennifer for locating the original thread. Thanks too others for helpful comments. But Frater.frag's advice would frighten some of our more euro-sceptic members who are afraid of the raging inflation implied by

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the mighty 360¤ swings

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(At least that's how it reads on my computer, as a euro symbol rather than a degree symbol.)

[fixed code]

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......................................

Thats odd, allthough I do advocate a common EU currency, thats not what I intended!

The EURO symbol is located on my E button, ie, €, the ¤ is on my 4 button, toghether with the no longer so mighty $!

Are you on a MAC?

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Theological Dissident,
Fencing Instr :)

"Mammals have hair, whales are mammals. Therefore whales have hair... Shave the whales!"

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Originally posted by Intrepid Thurifer:
...one other was Patouli (I think thats how you spell it) for the hippies I guess

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Siegfried said:

Also recommended for an Evensnog service. (I'm going to keep making that joke until someone laughs!!!! Don't say I didn't warn you!!!!!!)

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:

I have, however, heard absolutely sublime music sung when the smoke was so thick the church looked like a cigar bar. The same has been true when the choir was quite fragrant due to musty vestments and/or widespread halitosis or alcohol-breath.

Greta

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Originally posted by boppysbud:
About incense.

I noticed growing up in the 70's when smoking was socially acceptable, the same people who would be complaining of allergies and asthma and coughing their heads off at the merest whiff from the censer could not wait for Mass to end so they could light up.

At coffee hour you couldn't see across the parish hall for the wal-to-wall cigarette smoke.

Seems like what they were really allergic to was Catholicism

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:

I have, however, heard absolutely sublime music sung when the smoke was so thick the church looked like a cigar bar. The same has been true when the choir was quite fragrant due to musty vestments and/or widespread halitosis or alcohol-breath.

Greta

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Good choirs are troupers who will come through despite adversity.

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Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Acetone to get the residue off (not forgetting the chains) then brass/silver polish.

Every week if possible.

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Originally posted by Saint Osmund:
Rubber gloves, ethanol and a toothbrush are what I use. Emptying the thurible immediately after use also helps prevent it getting into the same state again.

Rinse thoroughly with water afterwards, and then dry it. Brasso should then do a sterling job.

M x

(PS - I haven't seen Silvo anywhere for ages. Is this no longer available?)

M x

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Originally posted by Sacristan:
Acetone is great for removing the tar. To polish it is easier to use "Twinkle" if available. You won't get as high a shine as with "Brasso" but it requires a lot less elbow grease.

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Originally posted by Magic Wand:
The variation of styles in use at S. Clement's for the censing of the congregation is an utter disgrace! Unfortunately, Alogon the correct method is the one which you seem not to prefer, and soon will be the only one in use there, so I'm told.

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Originally posted by Saint Osmund:
I am increasingly in agreement about figure '8's as well. They are highly ostentatious, and if they must be used, perhaps ought to be reserved for more festal outdoor processions.
M x

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Originally posted by Saint Osmund:
When I served at Mass in Lourdes a couple of years ago, the fact that the liturgical awareness of the regular servers of the Cathedral of the diocese that I accompanied was irreparably poor was most apparent. The seminarians were scurrying, rather then walking all over the sanctuary. One of them refused to allow me to add more incense to the thurible after the censings at the Offertory, despite the fact that there was no smoke whatever emanating from it. As a result, I ended up swinging an empty thurible towards the Blessed Sacrament at the elevations, and all beause of some misguided notion that "only the Bishop adds more incense".

When the Deacon was censing the Offertory, I had to restrain laughter. I had serious doubts that he had ever handled a thurible before. He held it directly in front of his face in his right hand, at arm's length, about 6 inches above the pot, and pulled the rest of the chain tight in his left hand. He then proceeded the strike the chain against the pot to make it move towards the congregation. The idea of swinging it appeared not to have occurred to him.


M x

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Originally posted by Sacristan:
Another problem there was that the deacon should not have been censing the gifts or the people, whatever it was he was doing...

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Originally posted by Alogon:
The first is that the thurifer should swing the thurible...from the end of the chain and at arm's length.

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Who/what makes it "the" correct method?

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I suspect that at S. Clement's, this would be a case of the lay popes striking again

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Fr. Laister was one of our greater rectors partly because he had what it took to make the congregation feel needed in the liturgy, even if it meant adopting a few details that didn't please the "sacristy rats" for whom ancient minutiae are the nun plus ultra.

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Yes, the congo should be censed with three full chains, center-left-right. It is important to smile but not grin.

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Now, what about figure 8's or Queen Annes, as we call them? I used to like them but now they just seem pretentious, ostentatious and even dangerous.

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Originally posted by Magic Wand:
And from Ultraspike:

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Yes, the congo should be censed with three full chains, center-left-right. It is important to smile but not grin.

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And the source of this is? Personal innovation?

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Almost every major AC church that uses incenses that I've ever seen censes the congo thusly (although the smile is optional). I always assumed it was in the "rubrics" somewhere. But I dare say every practice was someone's "personal innovation" sometime.

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A cowgirl's work is never done.

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Originally posted by Magic Wand:
Quoth Alogon:

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Who/what makes it "the" correct method?

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The rubrics of the liturgical books, the decreta authentica of the S.R.C., and the commentaries of the approved authors. Is there another authoritative source?
With respect to the poster's latter comment, assuming that ne plus ultra is actually meant, I would indeed agree--although not with any of the disparagement which I presume is intended. In terms of the former, perhaps Alogon could be a bit more specific?

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Originally posted by Ultraspike:
If you really want the congo to feel censed, do it like the Orthodox or St. Mary the Virgin TImes Square these days. The deacon runs down the aisle censing one side then the other.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
These usages flourished, and probably originated, during an era when the laity seldom received Communion and were in general treated as second-class citizens. The effect of all of them when revived today is to suggest that those in the congregation are tolerated onlookers rather than valued participants.

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And that is precisely the point!

Some of the more discerning of you may have picked up an inkling in you reading of MW that I have a minor interest in English Catholic rites and ceremonial.

My starting point for liturgical authority in such cases is mediaeval Catholic practice, much of which lives on in our beloved Book of Common Prayer. This must then be adapted (and the adaptation required is most often surprisingly minimal) to our current authorised rites.

Further to Alogon's comment above, and to answer PA's question, one will find that in these mediaeval rites, with all of their detailed rubrics, that there were no directions for the censing of the congregation, for the posture of the congregation throughout the Mass, or for the reception of Holy Communion. They were onlookers, often reduced to running around churches to catch a glimpse of the elevations through 'squints'; and apart fro Easter, this was the nearest they came to the Blessed Sacrament.

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Originaly posted by Ultraspike:
So what if it's not written down in Fortescue. Those books are only guidelines, not Gospel, imho.

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Originally posted by Panis Angelicus:
Why is the congregation censed, again? Has this always been done in the West?

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In my previous post, I overlooked the first part of your question. Apologies.

I have never seen this written down anywhere, and have never been taught this, but since I have been old enough to understand (to whatever degree we can understand) what happens at Mass, I have made this association in my mind:

The oblations to be offered are censed, then the Cross, to show that the Sacrifice being mde present is one and the same with the Sacrifice on the Cross. Then in censed the Altar on which the Sacrifice is to be offered, followed by the priest who is to offer the Sacrifice in persona Christi sacerdos magnus, and then the entire congregation, the Kingdom of Priests who also take part in the Sacrifice.

I have always seen it as uniting everybody present in the 'anamnesis' of Christ's Sacrifice at Calvary. To omit the censing of the congregation, or to somhow downplay it seems therefore out of place.

I don't know if this is theologically sound,. but it seems to be, and as for why we cense the congregation, it's an explanation that works for me.

M x