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Originally posted by Saint Osmund:
I have never seen this written down anywhere

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variously posted by Henry103:
...thurifer sits to the right of the altar...

...the stand....

When the host is elavated, incense is clicked three times with the bells...

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Originally posted by Henry103:
I think most people are married at St Mary's - except for the younger servers, and myself though I'm only 16.

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With howlers such as this, Mr. Balkwill, it's hard for me to believe you are not really a 46 year old troll yanking our chain. But, being the gullible sort, I'll tell you DODwarf found my diction risible: By 'single individual', I intended a person not standing next to another. Will you please stop telling us you are "only 16".

Can anyone attest to Young Henry's true age?

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A quick "google" on "Henry Balkwill" will confirm that Henry appears to be what he says he is, or has a well developed and longstanding "troll persona".

Oh and what exactly were you filmed doing for Childrens TV, Henry? - enquiring minds want to know.

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Wow - Good Research - I was filmed for a Childrens ITV program called "The Top Ten of Everything" I was singing a medley of the top ten christmas carols, I also was on a BBC Gameshow called "2for2000", but I only got to round 2 (there were 2000 contestants and 4 rounds)
Yes, I've been on the internet now since I was about 9, so thats 7 years on the internet!
If you can find out the specs of my first laptop though - I'll be dead impressed

-Henry

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
I shall confess to having enjoyed your posts and threads.

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Originally posted by Henry103:

If you can find out the specs of my first laptop though - I'll be dead impressed
-Henry

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Henry,

I am afraid our gentle jesting has made you shy of using ancient and proper Latin liturgical terminology. You can do better than this: "...thurifer moves to the altar during the "Blessed is he who comes to the name of the Lord" in the Lamb of God, everyone kneels...".

I for one think that you are 16 even though the only proof you have supplied is a photo of a trouser leg and a trainer. Your devotion to the Church is, sadly, far from typical for your age group which tends to be obsessed with more trivial matters.

You communicate very well for someone so young(although I would suggest that you brush up a bit on punctuation), and I shall confess to having enjoyed your posts and threads. I shall even go so far as to opine that you have been a whiff of incense in the MW onion patch.

As an aside, I hate your new screen name. As a life-long Anglo-Catholic, I naturally preferred the old one.

Greta

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OK, I'll rise to the bait, in 2001 you were running a 100meg laptop with 98se.
More seriously (and somewhat back on topic) I would like second what CorgiGreta said. You have given cosiderable entertainment (and provocation) but I suspect that you are quite capable of keeping your side of the dialogue up.

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Very Good - it was actually a Dell Latitude XPi 100SD, 100mhz Pentium, 40mb RAM, 2.1gb Hard Disk, 28.8k Modem

Actually - it's rather scary that people can find so much about me on the internet!
I'll raise the stakes here: which newsgroup I'm I an active member of and what's my nickname on it?

Also what was the name of the boatboy at mass today - I've forgotten so you will all have to remind me! (laughs as this will now be impossible)

-Henry
P.S. Sorry if I'm abusing this forums with my silly games Mr. Admin - this is just a one off!

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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If I may drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the subject of incense and thurifers...

I'm doing smoke on Wednesday (at my AC parish church) for a funeral (Requiem Mass) for a lady whose family are RC. Are there any simple ways in which I can vary my style to make them feel at home?

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Originally posted by Henry103:
Less smoke - many RC Parishes don't actually use incense anymore, and if they do (i'm thinking about one monastry now) smoke is rare when it comes out of the thurible, it really is quite pointless.
When it comes to ritual, I think its pretty much the same!

-Henry

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Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
If I may drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the subject of incense and thurifers...

I'm doing smoke on Wednesday (at my AC parish church) for a funeral (Requiem Mass) for a lady whose family are RC. Are there any simple ways in which I can vary my style to make them feel at home?

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Well, if you are in the U.S. and are trying to make Roman Catholics feel at home, you might want to omit incense.

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More abomination, more abomination

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I think the thurifer's a pyromaniac

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Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
If I may drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the subject of incense and thurifers...

I'm doing smoke on Wednesday (at my AC parish church) for a funeral (Requiem Mass) for a lady whose family are RC. Are there any simple ways in which I can vary my style to make them feel at home?

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Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I seem to recall that as a Requiem Mass is not a Mass 'of this realm', the congregation are onlookers and not necessarily participants.

This is why they do not receive communion and I believe that they are also not censed at the Offertory.

Did I dream this or has anybody come across this before?

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Originally posted by Bishop of Stortford:
Rummaging through some cupboards in the sacristy on Sunday, I came across some rusty old tins of incense from Charles Farris Ltd of Hounslow. One is called "Canterbury"; the other seems to have no name. Judging by the state of the tins, I'd guess they've been there since the 1970s, if not before - possibly since the reformation. I was wondering if this stuff has a shelf life. Has anyone tried burning ancient incense? Will it still smell any good? Can it be worse than Glastonbury?

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Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Most commercial stuff is ground far too small and therefore has a very short shelf life once opened, especially the ubiquitous 'Basilica' which is OK on the day of purchase but shite thereafter. We import ours from New York and worth every penny it is too.

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Originally posted by Ultraspike:
Yes, incense does get stale. The frankincense and myrrh by themselves will last indefinitely but the oils which are added have a limited freshness. Keeping the incense in an airtight bag or container helps.
Yesterday at the Anglican Use Rite at St. Vincent Ferrer the incense smelled like it had gotten mixed with grandpa's pipe tobacco about 25 years ago.

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Originally posted by jlg:
Just to reinforce what has already been said:

You're dealing with oils, which can go rancid, undergo chemical changes, or just simply dissapate. Use of any incense, except for a new supply of a known and trusted product, should ideally always be subject to a private test-burn. Even if it smells OK in the solid state, burning it might push it over the edge into something nasty.
(tangent: Essential oils have various shelf-lives; I believe the floral ones tend to break down sooner. The more aromatic or resinous ones (think burial herbs and spices) are quite long-lasting. I have a little vial of oil of cloves which is well over 30 years old and still going strong.)

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Have RCs given up on incense? Or is this an American characteristic.

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This same pattern happens for the elevation of each element.

(genuflect/dong) -> -> . (elevation/dong) -> -> . (genuflect/dong) -> ->.

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Originally posted by Bishop of Stortford:
I've always done this because that's what they do at St Botolph Bishopsgate, where I first came across incense. Is that incorrect?

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Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Is this practice becoming common among Lutherans here in the States??

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Originally posted by Cusanus:
Now on the subject of clean thuribles... where does one get acetone these days? I couldn't find any this week Even For Ready Money. All the nail polish remover available seems to be proudly announcing its non-acetone status. What to do?

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Originally posted by Holy Cow:
Mineral Turpentine ...

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Turpentine (wood) should not be confused with mineral turpentine. Turpentine (wood) is derived by destructive distillation of wood and contains mainly pinene and dipentene. Mineral turpentine is a refined petroleum solvent and is a mixture of straight and branched chain paraffins, naphthenes and aromatic hydrocarbons.

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Odorless mineral spirits (OMS), and mineral spirits (MS) also called "white spirit" in Britain and Europe, are petroleum distillate solvents. These and other solvents such as naphtha, kerosene, toluene, and xylene are distilled from petroleum.

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Originally posted by Henry Troup:

... "mineral turpentine" ... might be what North Americans call "mineral spirits" and the UK "white spirit"...

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Original Post by Custard123 on 29 June, 2004 19:27

What was the point of the incense in the OT?
Was there one other than it smelling nice (and seeming to be something done as part of worshipping God)?

What do people do with it today and why?

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posted by Madake on 29 June, 2004 19:40

wasn't it a symbol of the prayers going to God?

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posted by Father Gregory on 29 June, 2004 19:41

Dear Custard123

The primary meanings are sacrifice, prayer and the veneration of God. There is a huge amount of biblical material about this.

You could start here with the Torrey reference ...

Torrey - Incense

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory

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posted by CorgiGreta on 29 June, 2004 21:03

Besides the meanings cited by Fr. Gregory, incense is one of many devices (can't think of a better word) for creating an atmosphere far removed from the profane. Like special vestments, sacred art, ecclesiastical architecture, and liturgical music, incense helps to create the sights, the scents and the sounds of a heavenly space.

Greta

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posted by Vikki Pollard on 29 June, 2004 22:04


Incense is wonderful. Unfortunately I'm really allergic to it and can't go to my local church because I can't breathe in there.

You see, Father G, God must want SOME of us not to be Orthodox.

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posted by Ultraspike on 30 June, 2004 00:23


It also served a practical purpose of fumigating the place when the unwashed masses used to huddle there, esp. in cathedrals.

But I believe it was first used in the Temple sacrifices, in the Bible anyway. It purified the air there also as well as sending an offering to God.

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posted by Moo on 30 June, 2004 00:50


I think that in the Middle East, incense has been around for thousands of years.

I assume it was used in worship because people wanted to offer something good to God.

Moo

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posted by Anselm on 30 June, 2004 01:45


My 2cents worth
Given the large quantity of slaughtered animals and that was thrown around the temple, the incense would have acted nicely as a deoderant. Indeed there was a special incense/aroma for the temple incense - the temple would have had a distinctive smell. Seeking to reproduce the aroma was a serious offence IIRC.

The smoke from the incense may have also symbolised the presence of the glory of God which had on previous occasions presented iteself as a cloud.

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posted by Sir George Grey on 30 June, 2004 01:49


With Anselm's post in mind, someone definately needs to write a high-church liturgy for use in places such as Sydney, Cape Town or Johannesburg, or anywhere else where people like putting large pieces of meat on the barbecue.

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posted by Ultraspike on 30 June, 2004 01:54


Frankincense and beef! The newer rite is here!

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posted by Sir George Grey on 30 June, 2004
02:17

The beef is here.

Its savour is with us.

Lift up your forks.

We lift them unto the beef

Let us give thanks for this tender, juicy steak.

It is meat, and right so to do.

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HangerQueen on 30 June, 2004 02:23


Incense gives me a slamming headache. I remember going to an evening service once when I was a kid. They had this huge censer belching out fumes of incense. I thought my head was going to explode.

Guess it's low church for me!

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posted by Frisbeetarian on 30 June, 2004 02:38


In Wicca, especially the "fluffy" kind, the trailing smoke is supposed to carry messages up to the God and Goddess, especially when a ritual is being done in the open air. Probably does the same thing in Christian symbolism.

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posted by The Dumb Acolyte on 30 June, 2004 05:45

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Originally posted by Custard123:
What do people do with it today...?

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Some of the why has been addressed. Perhaps it is helpful to natter on describing some of the what and the when.

Blessed incense is used together with blessed water and prayers to hallow and set objects apart. So, new vestments, rosaries, chalices, new church buildings, homes, candles, what have you, are all blessed with water, incense, and prayers.

It is also used to proceed solemn processions, inside or outside. At the station of a procession , the object of the station (Lady statue, font, rood, west doors, effigy of the patron) is incensed. At a procession of the Most Blessed Sacrament, especial care is used to honor It with incense immediately in It's path.

Anglocatholics generally use incense at the mass at these times:

• at the entrance preceding the processional cross
• after the celebrant has kissed the altar, he incenses the altar cross, the altar, and the relics, if any
• the deacon then incenses the celebrant
• the thurifer leads the gospel procession, in places that have one (most)
• the deacon incenses the gospel book before he reads from it
• the thurifer and torchbearers lead the Gifts of bread and wine to the altar in the Offertory Procession
• the celebrant incenses the gifts and altar and himself is again incensed by the deacon, who also incenses the choir clergy, if any, and the subdeacon
• the thurifer incenses the rest of the sanctuary party, the choir, and finally the people
• the thurifer incenses the host and the chalice when they are elevated after the words of institution and again at the words 'by whom and with whom..."

Which is to say: A lot. But then, perhaps, a friend from the East will confirm or deny my belief that in their rites the thurible is rarely just hanging around in the altar.

At the rite of Benediction, the Most Blessed Sacrament is incensed during the blessing with It in the monstrance.

The above assumes there is no bishop loitering about the sanctuary. In addition, another thread discusses the use of incense at Solemn Matins and Solemn Evensong.

The Paschal Candle has five incense grains, for the Five Holy Wounds, set into it. The grains themselves are sprinkled and incensed before being placed. Then the assembly is sprinkled and incensed again.

Together with prayers, incense is used to hallow baptismal water. The East uses great clouds of it during the Great Blessing of the Waters at Holy Theophany and for the festal icon, incensed from the four cardinal points, on its feast day.

Enterprising thurifers will use incense during Solemn Te Deums to attempt to obscure from view any portion of the chancel from the west end.

And another word about the why. While we post-moderns may squirm at the thought, the church still teaches the apotropaic power of holy things: that blessed objects, and especially blessed water, blessed candles and their light, and blessed incense, can drive away demons.

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posted by Mousethief on 30 June, 2004 05:48

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Originally posted by Sir George Grey.:
Let us give thanks for this tender, juicy steak.

It is meat, and right so to do.

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That's pretty funny, Sir GG!

[ 30. June 2004, 05:49: Message edited by: Mousethief ]

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Reader Alexis

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posted by Duo Seraphim on 30 June, 2004 06:22

Hosting

Seems like a perfectly good Mystery Worship thread going to waste.

And with a single swing of the thurible in three directions to the congregation, it was sent to its natural habitat...

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

[ 30. June 2004, 06:22: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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Duo Seraphim

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posted by Norman the Organ on 30 June, 2004 08:47

quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:

* the celebrant ... is again incensed by the deacon, who also incenses the choir clergy, if any, and the subdeacon

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Not a popular guy then, this deacon - what does he keep doing wrong?


Sorry, I'll get me coat.

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posted by Custard123 on 30 June, 2004 09:03


thanks very much everyone for your helpful thoughts, though the thread does seem to have been killed off by transplatation to MW

or maybe it had just run its course anyway

[ 30. June 2004, 09:03: Message edited by: Custard123 ]

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posted by Sir George Grey. on 30 June, 2004 09:41


Well, I'll put my two cents worth in anyway.

To be frank I'm not as well up on the theology of incense as some. My understanding is that it represents the prayers of the assembled church.

For the most part, for me I find it a helpful aid to worship as one might with songs, silence, candles etc.

In NZ it's being rediscovered in some charismatic/evangelical circles which is interesting.

(and much to be applauded IMHO )

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posted by Charles Read on 30 June, 2004 09:43


A priest friend often remarks:

"I tell people to get used to the smell of incense because in the afterlife there are only two smells - incense and brimstone".

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posted by Ultraspike on 30 June, 2004 12:00

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Originally posted by Charles Read:
A priest friend often remarks:

"I tell people to get used to the smell of incense because in the afterlife there are only two smells - incense and brimstone".

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There's a good combo I hadn't thought of. Where does one get brimstone? Perhaps we could use it on All Souls Day.

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posted by Adeodatus on 30 June, 2004 13:49


Maybe the thread has slowed down now that it's in MW because for a lot of us down here, smoke just isn't much of an issue. Now, heating the charcoal just right to that orangey glow, and getting the incense grains just the right size so they do burn properly but don't all go up at once ... they're issues!

Of course, MWers will know what I'd say to the "why do we do it" of incense .....

It's liturgy. You Just Do It.

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posted by Saint Chad on 30 June, 2004 14:42

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Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
You see, Father G, God must want SOME of us not to be Orthodox.

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Oh dear! I'm not Orthodox, I'd better stop using incense.

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Frisbeetarian posted:
In Wicca, especially the "fluffy" kind, the trailing smoke is supposed to carry messages up to the God and Goddess, especially when a ritual is being done in the open air. Probably does the same thing in Christian symbolism.

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In Christian ceremonial the incense doesn't actually carry the prayers, it represents them. In some Canons of the Mass we ask angels to do the carrying!

And hear, hear, Adeodatus!

[ 30. June 2004, 14:43: Message edited by: Saint Chad ]

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Oh dear! I'm not Orthodox

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